If they think mccoy is struggling that bad then i could guess that would be a possiblility. Drafting a guy is a possibility too.
Personally i don't see it happening. I can see mccoy getting another year. I can respect the fact that you've watched him for years....
Guess its just a difference of opinion....you think what you are seeing is what you are going to get....I tend to think that all of these guys need a chance to develop....then you know....most won't...some will....but they all need alittle more time then most give.
I think we use our high picks on some play makers in other areas. linebacker, de....that defense isn't done until we can stop the run...our depth is young, so we might be pleasantly surprised, but we seem slow on defense still.
where the weak spot is exactly is not for me to say. Heck i could see us taking another corner.
We also need a number 1 receiver and a RT. With the way little is dropping the ball, don't know if he is it....maybe he just needs to get to the point where he's not thinking, just playing. we'll draft another oline for sure.
Tons of holes on this team...not so sure we are going to yank the rug out from under the position that needs the most time to develop. He went in the third for a reason...as a developmental player. Holmgren saw something in him. Maybe he's seen enough...maybe not.
Without saying anything whatsoever about McCoy or Brees or Rogers I'll say that I've never been a fan of the argument that because one guy stunk but then improved to become a pro-bowl player that any other guy who stinks can also improve to become a pro-bowl player.
It doesn't naturally follow suit that what happened with one player will happen with another whom began with similar circumstances.
Following that logic, me and Johnny Depp were both born naked and helpless so I too can become a rich and famous actor. (Don't give up on me yet )
All the comparison does say is that no one can't say without a doubt that Colt McCoy will never amount to anything although there have been hundreds upon hundreds of NFL quarterbacks who started out badly and never amounted to anything.
To make the decision to keep him or throw him to the curb you have to look far beyond what is numerically possible and focus more closely on his talent and abilities. And that has to be done by experienced, seasoned experts.
So I have no opinion one way or another on what to do with Colt. I'll leave that up to Shurmur and Holmgren.
I think we should try to draft a quarterback, but I don't want us mortgaging the farm for one. I know that a top-flight quarterback is the best way to build a contending team, but I would want that quarterback to take the reins of a strong team, not one that was depleted in order to get him in there.
We have a serious lack of talent at almost all positions due to the crappy drafting that has happened here over many years. That talent has to be brought up to a certain bare minimum before we can bring in our shiny new QB. I'm not saying we need to have a "great" anything (WR corps, o-line, RB committee, etc.), we just need to build all those up so they're competent.
Quote: Following that logic, me and Johnny Depp were both born naked and helpless so I too can become a rich and famous actor. (Don't give up on me yet
Those are the similarities...But now , we point out the differences...
Johnny got dressed and did...Pirates of the Carribean...and you stayed naked and did ...um... well...What was the name of that movie that starred Holmes..Jeremy and yourself ? I really hope your not naked and helpless when posting on here..
Sorry ddubia... had to do that....
I had to admire the fact that Colt kept getting up after the hits he was taking...
Also...I was sort of wanting to see if Wallace could have done anything better.. If Wallace was able to drive the team down field hooking up with the receivers, and not having the drops.
For myself...it would help evaluate whether It's Colt that causes some of this offensive bliss.... or if it's just a young team trying to get past injuries and the learning ladder..
As of now... i have to agree with your point on not having an opinion one way or the other...
Personally i think at the end of the season they evaluate all the players as best they can, and then go from there.
I think when draft day comes around they draft bpa...someone posted awhile back on how heckert perceives value at certain positions. dejango made points along the same lines about value in a draft. Where you target certain positions.
They might come to the conclusion that colt needs more time...they may come to the conclusion that we need some new linemen more...or receivers...
They might look at all of those positions and say that qb was the most glaring weakness....i don't know...and i never will....i just watch.
The problem that this and every other regime that we have had is that us fans are sick of losing...
Any coach and gm that came in were on a virtual hot seat from the get go.....win now....or your done...This has been our biggest problem. Coaches grabbed fa's who didn't need a learning curve....we reached in drafts. We sacrificed our future for possible better results now. We never developed anyone. We all know what that got us...mediocre teams that can't compete with home grown developed talent.
This team needs stability....it needs to develop....these guys will grow together, and one day the successes will start to exceed the failures...we will be more consistent....then we will start to win games....
I'm on the Blackmon bandwagon, so if he's there, I want us to take him, no matter what. And I'm sure all of you should be glad I'm not the GM.
But if he's not and either Barkley or Luck is there (though we know Luck won't be), I take one of them.
I have a feeling Luck, Barkley and Blackmon will be gone by the time we pick. Then we'll be looking at a trade down and build up at some other positions.
Back to the point of the thread, though, I'll say that, unless someone studly is out there (or "proven" like a Jason Campbell), then we stick with McCoy for another year and give him some weapons in the draft.
Quote: Holy mackerel, Mac. You've put your eggs into the basket of the exceptions to the rule to try and prove McCoy's case?
How about we even up the playing field here. How about I get Doug Flutie's NFL numbers, and go get Sennaca Wallace's NFL numbers. I could then state that McCoy is "too small" to be an NFL QB.
But you know what? That wouldn't be basing anything on "facts." Those are opinions, ergo, you're argument isn't based on a "fact" but rather on an "opinion."
I just can't believe you're trying to use a couple of pro-bowl, Super Bowl winning QB's to try and prove McCoy is viable.
As to your question, as much as I don't believe in him, yeah, it's too early to give up on him. Judgement day is very near, though...
toad...having trouble with the facts?
You may have an opinion that McCoy is too short or too small...but you would be wrong.
McCoy is shorter than Rogers by 3 cm and taller than Brees by 2 cm...McCoy's size has very little to do with his ability to succeed.
How many of our experts knew that Brees and Rogers would develop into Super Bowl winning QBs after 16 starts..or 20 starts?
20 starts into Drew Brees' career, he was in the middle of an 8 game losing streak dating back to the previous season.
From the Chargers bye week in 2002, continuing into the first 9 games of 2003, Brees QBed the Chargers to just 4 wins and 14 losses before losing his starting job to Doug Flutie, who started the rest of the 2003 season.
After Brees' first 3 seasons with the Chargers, I wonder how many of their fans thought he was nothing more than a backup QB? I doubt that many thought he would ever be a Super Bowl winning QB.
Aaron Rogers, 2 years into his career, he had completed 15 of 31 passes, with no starts.
...Rogers was 35 of 59 after 3 seasons with the Packers. I wonder how many Packer fans believed Rogers would lead the Pack to a Super Bowl victory in his 6th season in the NFL?
The point I'm making..it can be 2 or 3 years into a QBs career and there is no way to know if that QB is the one to lead your team to a Super Bowl victory...just look at Rogers and Brees after 3 seasons in the NFL...
...after 3 seasons, Rogers had not yet started a game and Brees had lost his starting job to Doug Flutie after Qbing the Chargers to a 1 win - 7 losses start, in 2003.
I admit, I'm not expert when it comes to predicting whether any young QB is the man to lead their team to the playoffs. As evidence from the facts above, even 3 years into a QBs career and most still don't know if that QB is capable of leading their team to the promise land.
It takes time and an understanding of the big picture...but the problem is, most fans are impatient and take a narrow view of the overall situation.
Those believing the Browns will just draft another QB...well, I'm afraid the Browns have won too many games to be in a position to draft one of the 2 or 3 elite QBs of this draft. You say we should package our two first round draft picks and move up to draft a QB...do that and there goes that WR and LB we need to improve on both sides of the ball.
Did you know that Namdi Asomugha has never been on a team with a winning record...high school, College anf NFL? Crazy isn't it?
Correlation-Causation miscues are a funny game....we coule play it all week and Colt would still be a crappy QB...because he is who he is and nobody else
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Yes, too soon to give up on him, however the leadership and coaches will likely throw him under the bus well before they admit fault on their own part or surround him with talent and allow him to mature. We're so sorely lacking in supporting and coaching talent that there aren't enough seasons available to allow him to mature to his full potential. He'll either be long gone or destroyed mentally and physically before that happens.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
See, I don't think they need to throw him under the bus or admit fault or anything like that. McCoy is a third round QB. If he ends up as our franchise QB, then WOW! If not, oh well.
While having a franchise QB is important, I think the team around him is also important. We need to have a team ready so that when we get our guy, we can be confident that he's stepping into a good situation. It's not that we have to get Colt more weapons, or a better line, we need to do that regardless of who's under center.
Is It Too Soon to Give Up on McCoy? I hope not, because I gave up on him during the Titan's game. He's done absolutely nothing to give the appearance I've made a mistake. Take his one big play from yesterday, the storyline would go something like this:
"Time appeared to stand still as Hillis slowly positioned himself in the drop zone, awaiting the descent of the wobbling pigskin. One could almost expect to see a parachute as the ball slowly fluttered into view."
And this was Colt's best pass of the day. He can't make strong, downfield throws, he can't read defenses and he scrambles into sacks. He continuously leads receivers into bonecrushing hits. If it weren't for a wet ball, he probably would have thrown 4-5 INT's yesterday. He had time to throw yesterday and he had a pocket. I don't know what some of you are seeing that would lead you to believe that Colt has the talent to be a starting qb in this league.
I admire the man's honesty, courage and toughness. He just hasn't shown the consistent skillset necessary to be a starting NFL qb.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
i personally think he's a bit weak armed, inaccurate, and makes some bad bad decisions. that being said, I'd give him at least one more year to learn the offense in the offseason and go a full year running the same offense and I'd really load up on offense in the draft/FA to help see if he's part of the future
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
Quote: i personally think he's a bit weak armed, inaccurate, and makes some bad bad decisions. that being said, I'd give him at least one more year to learn the offense in the offseason and go a full year running the same offense and I'd really load up on offense in the draft/FA to help see if he's part of the future
his lack of arm strength to throw balls outside the numbers is growing apparent as this season progresses.. really sad.
Look at Indy, same team with and without Manning, difference of winning ANY GAMES.
Are you seriously comparing Peyton Manning & Curtis Painter? Or Peyton Manning to Colt McCoy? Or the Browns' receivers to the Colts' receivers?
Manning > McCoy > Painter
Colts WRs > Browns WRs
If you put Aaron Rodgers on the Colts, they're a playoff team instead of 0-12. Put Drew Brees on the Colts and they're a playoff team instead of 0-12. Put any elite QB on the Colts and they're a playoff team.
I think that Indy looks to trade out of the #1 spot (what would Washington give them to get Andrew Luck?) but probably picks up a QB in the 2nd or 3rd round to groom behind Manning, not a 5th rounder like Orlovsky or a 6th rounder like Painter.
Put McCoy behind Manning for 2 years and he could be the heir apparent and future star. McCoy's curse has been that he was drafted by a horrible Browns team. The same faced Tim Couch in 1999 - although this year's Browns aren't as bad as that laughingstock. Couch got a raw deal from the start and never recovered.
Quote: My point wasn't about the Colts, it was about us, A top flight, hell a competant NFL QB on this team and we're in the playoff race right now. Easily.
Maybe. We're still competing with BallsNoMore & Putzburgh in this division. Would we be in the hunt? Maybe, but I wouldn't say that would 'easily' be the case. Our receivers are sub-par. The right side of our line is utter crap and it's having a negative impact on our entire OL and the offense as a whole.
Quote: McCoy can sit behind Manning for 10 years, it's not going to raise his skill level...
That's obviously just YOUR opinion. Frankly, I think if Manning were the OC, we'd be a better team. If Manning was the HC, we'd be a better team.
If you put Aaron Rodgers on the Colts, they're a playoff team instead of 0-12. Put Drew Brees on the Colts and they're a playoff team instead of 0-12. Put any elite QB on the Colts and they're a playoff team.
What is your point? Put McCoy on the Colts, and they are probably still 0-12.
Put Rodgers, or Brees on the Browns, they are probably leading the division right now. Especially with the easy schedule.
[color:"white"]I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane -Waylon Jennings
Is it too soon to give up on our receiving corps? The Browns receivers lead the league in drops with 35. Plug those catches not made into McCoys numbers, add the avg YPC and at least 1 TD to his totals, and I bet his QB rating goes up 10 points.
Quote: Colt looks shrimpy out there. It's the same "game is too big" look that Quinn had.
I don't think that Quinn ever had the talent that McCoy has. But to be fair to Quinn, he didn't have a competent OL to protect him either. None of the QBs we've had since 1999 have had a very good OL to help them. Some have had better weapons to throw to than what we have now.
Quote: What is your point? Put McCoy on the Colts, and they are probably still 0-12.
Maybe. I don't know. Could be that their HC is really that bad too! Ours too!
Quote: Put Rodgers, or Brees on the Browns, they are probably leading the division right now. Especially with the easy schedule.
Without legitimate receivers? You might be right though. Even with Rodgers' receivers dropping the ball, they still eeked out a win against the NY Dwarfs.
ammo...I thought about that scenario and addressed it earlier...I went ahead and broke it down further after the completion of week 12.
The Browns have won 4 games and there are 10 teams with 4 wins or less, with 4 games left to play.
...Eagles 4 wins, have Mike Vick ...Dolphins 4 wins, need a QB ...Redskins 4 wins, need a QB ...Panthers 4 wins, drafted Newton in 2011 ...Tampa 4 wins, have Josh Freeman ... Jags 3 wins, drafted Gabbert in 2011 ...Vikings 3 wins, drafted Ponder in 2011 ...Rams 2 wins, drafted Bradford in 2010 ...Colts 0 wins, will take Luck
The only shot the Browns have at the second best QB in this draft is to lose out the rest of the season, which could be a possibility. Obviously the Redskins and Dolphins will be looking to draft the second best QB in the upcoming draft too.
I have no idea how things will work out, but it seems to me that if Colt McCoy wants to insure he is the Browns QB of the future, he better get hot and lead the Browns to at least 1 more win this season.
Quote: You'd have to do the same for all other qb's, so their numbers would benefit as well.
We may have the highest total, but it isn't like other teams have 0 drops.
I don't have all the numbers but if you averaged it out we probably have maybe 5-6 more then other teams.
So add 6-7 catches to the totals and his rating isn't going up all that much.
Maybe, but since McCoy's passes (as has been a criticism of him) are short passes, the YPA is low. The commensurate yardage gained would be far less than the dropped balls by receivers on other teams. It's not like they're dropping balls 25 yards down field. These are 3 yard dump-offs and 5-7 yard slants that are being dropped for the most part.
Add TDs dropped by the receivers on other teams (God knows the Browns don't see the end zone enough) and you spread that QB rating difference even more.
Are you honestly trying to compare Colt McCoy to a QB who is having one of the single greatest seasons in the history of the sport?
After 20 starts:
Completion %:
Aaron Rodgers: 62.8 Colt McCoy: 58.8
Passing Yards:
Rodgers: 5,175 McCoy: 4,100
Touchdowns:
Rodgers: 36 McCoy: 20
INTs:
Rodgers: 14 McCoy: 18
Rushing TD's:
Rodgers: 6 McCoy: 1
QB Rating:
Rodgers: 95.9 McCoy: 76.1
Also, Rodgers' 17th start was a playoff game.
phil...so you consider yourself one of our experts...
...just kidding phil
Seriously, your last sentence is probably the most important consideration you should be making when trying to compare McCoy to Rogers.
When Rogers began as the Packers starter, after setting for 3 seasons...Rogers inherited a team that missed going to the Super Bowl by hair, losing the NFC Championship game to the Giants in OT, 23-20.
Phil...care to compare the team Colt McCoy inherited to the team Rogers inherited?
I don't believe I need to say any more...
UPDATE..phil...better go back and check your facts...Rogers 17th start was against the Bears, which was the first game of the 2009 season.
Rogers started 16 games in 2008, after Favre left the Packers (for the Jets)before the 2008 season started. The 2008 Packers finished 6-10 after just missing going to the Super Bowl in 2007 with Favre at QB, his last season as the Packers starter.
Quote: draft more offensive talent and this offense will look a little better..
draft a tackle, guard, wr, and pending a rb... after that is done.. then get your QB.
hot...that would sure be an understandable approach because regardless of who we put at QB next season, McCoy or some rookie, if we don't address some of the glaring needs on this offensive unit, it won't matter who our QB is...next season will look a lot like this season.
I hope others think about that...simply drafting another QB does little to fix what is wrong with the Browns offensive unit.
Putting a competent QB out there will upgrade RT and WR AND the running game instantly...we still have a big need at WR and RT (see ATL thread in tailgate) but a good QB can "upgrade" what's there at those positions MORE than the other way around...it's not like McCoy's out throw doesn't get INTed when Pashos blocks better (and on that play he had the time to make that throw anyway)
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
I want to keep him. I can't see anyone, critic OR fan able to judge him with the craphe is working with. I am not naive enough to see him operating in a perfect world, but this offensive line and stone-handed receivers (we lead the NFL, yay, we are #1) are crippling us. Just frustrating to hear how well we battle and practice and then see such garbage. This many coaches and hours into it I had hoped to look more respectable. But like in The Replacements: "You gotta have heart!" Seemed like a number of them are just mailing it in. Keep him. But put him on notice. And stop putting the BE clones out there; if you are a receiver who doesn't, have a seat. Give 'em some Vitamin P (Pine) which is a good universal cure for what ails you.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Quote: Putting a competent QB out there will upgrade RT and WR AND the running game instantly...we still have a big need at WR and RT
DJ...you just contradicted your own claim, with your comment above.
A competent Rookie QB is not going to fix what is wrong with the Browns offense at RT and WR.
Also, I'm not so sure the Browns don't need an OG, given that Steinbach had back surgery and is not getting younger.
Here is what I look for the Browns to do in the offseason...move Pinkston to RT, draft a stud OG with the 2nd round pick. Draft a WR with one of our two first round picks and draft defense with the other first round pick.
If the Browns use their first round pick on a QB, it leaves the pick the Browns got from Atlanta to address our WR or Defensive needs, but they can't address both needs with the top talent in the draft.
League average for drops is 20. If McCoy's receivers were at 20 drops instead of 35, his QBR goes to 83.5 which puts him at #15 in league stats. Which does not make him elite, but does make him average. IMO, "average" is not a bad place to be when you're a young QB. Especially given the state of the OL and the suckitude of play-calling coming from the OC.
Quote: DJ...you just contradicted your own claim, with your comment above.
No, I did not because I said multiple times that I consider QB an even BIGGER need...just because we have a need at WR and RT, that doesn't absolve the QB
Mac...what is Colt good or even AVG at? and by that I mean league wide, you need around 15 starting QBs to be worse to qualify....good luck...defending Colt by trashing other positions around him doesn't make him better....he's simply not the guy...I really have to question football 101 on anyone who "sees" a franchise QB in Colt
oh, and here's what the HC said about Colt:
(On how he feels McCoy played this past week) - “He battled. He battled.”
Shurmur's as done with Colt as anyone around here, he evades questions about him EVERY time and I'm pretty sure it'S because he knows Colt's fate already having had some meetings with H&H....Colt is merely a stop gap for those last 4 games...that's my humble guess
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
McCoy's stats always look better than his play, because he plays "not to lose" style....a QB who dumps it off to his RB for a 15yd gain down 2 scores or who throws 3yds past the LOS to the sideline on 3rd&10 is not QBing, he's stat whoring
At least 30% of Colt'S stats are garbage time "gimme" stats with the D in prevent mode where he can go all dump off happy and bump his stats...last week he did it again..he had something like 120-130yds before the last "drive"
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: Take his one big play from yesterday, the storyline would go something like this:
"Time appeared to stand still as Hillis slowly positioned himself in the drop zone, awaiting the descent of the wobbling pigskin. One could almost expect to see a parachute as the ball slowly fluttered into view."
I guess that is one take...here's another:
After getting killed for most of the day, McCoy found himself with plenty of time to make a play...he goes through every progression and no one is open...he hangs in the "pocket" and sees his FB-playing-TB running wide open down the sideline 30 yards or more down the field.
Time stands still for McCoy...he starts to think...it's raining and the ball is wet...Hillis hasn't caught a pass from 40+ yards away in...maybe forever...Hillis not an acrobatic receiver and is in his second game back after being out with a bad hammy...he is WIDE open...
McCoy concludes that he better not overthrow Hillis - even slightly - because there is no way Hillis makes a great receiving catch in this circumstance...
McCoy throws a Dalton-esque punt to Hillis who catches the ball and stumbles to the 2 before fumbling the ball.
Had Dalton thrown that pass, we'd hear about how smart it was for him to NOT overthrow the recently-injured, FB-playing-TB, who was open 40 yards downfield.
Quote: And this was Colt's best pass of the day.
I think the drop by Moore in the endzone was Colt's best pass of the day...second was the ball thrown to Norwood...who also dropped the pass...third best was the low pass to Watson (at midfield) who could not make a play...fourth best was the pass that went through Watson's hands and hit him in the helmet....fifth best was the TD to Moore on another play similar to the pass to Hillis...not pretty but not over/under thrown either.
Each of those 5 passes were perfectly thrown where only the Browns receiver could catch the ball...only 1 actually DID catch the ball.
Quote: He can't make strong, downfield throws, he can't read defenses and he scrambles into sacks. He continuously leads receivers into bonecrushing hits. If it weren't for a wet ball, he probably would have thrown 4-5 INT's yesterday.
When he has the time to throw downfield he has shown that he can do it at least ok - which downfiled receiver do you think is his best one? Maybe Hillis. When he is pressured, his downfiled throws are as you described.
I don't know if the "reading defenses" is all on McCoy. I am sure some of it is...but when a guy like Little turns inside instead of outside, I am guessing it was Little who mis-read the play/D. I am certain that McCoy struggles reading defenses at this point...he is no worse than was Rodgers in Rodgers' second year.
If the wet ball was the gift that prevented 4-5 INTs, then the wet ball has some responsibility for the errant throws as well...no?
Quote: He had time to throw yesterday and he had a pocket.
Maybe I was watching a different game. There WAS a QB in that game who had time to throw, had a pocket, and flat out missed on a lot of wide open throws. BUT, he is the golden ratbird...so I must have been the only guy to notice.
Quote: I don't know what some of you are seeing that would lead you to believe that Colt has the talent to be a starting qb in this league.
The five passes I mentioned above were ALL NFL caliber throws...and only ONE of those was actually caught. THAT's what I am seeing that leads me to believe that Colt has the talent to be a starting QB in this league.
Quote: I admire the man's honesty, courage and toughness. He just hasn't shown the consistent skillset necessary to be a starting NFL qb.
Fair enough...that's what you see and I respect your opinions on here. You may be spot on. HOWEVER, replace 'QB' with a 'WR' on our team and the above sentence is still - likely - correct. Replace 'QB' with 'RB' - whenever Hillis is out - and the sentence is still correct.
Our only offensive strength - TE - has been marginal at best. Pashos has been awful...Lavaou has been awful but gets a pass because he is a newbie and is playing next to Pashos.
Shurmur does not understand that 2nd and short is the perfect time to go for a big/bigger play than simply calling a TB dive into the line for a first down - especially when that play regularly gets zero or negative yards.
And I am not even going to talk about our LBs and the fact that one of our backup DEs was the BEST RDE we had last Sunday...or how bad our Safety play is...or Sheldon Brown.
In the end, I am not sold on McCoy either. I just think he has not been given much of anything to work with and we have much bigger problems than him right now.
IMO, If we draft a QB in our first (4) picks, we are making a mistake. Not because I think McCoy is great...but because we need better players just to get to mediocre in the talent game in our division.
A guy who needs to sit 1-3 years before playing is not what we need. In some ways, we've tried that with McCoy...but he only sat for 6 games or so. We are too bad in too many spots to be a team that can use a top pick on a guy who "might" be a real QB and who needs to sit to "develop".
Quote: Colt looks shrimpy out there. It's the same "game is too big" look that Quinn had.
I don't think that Quinn ever had the talent that McCoy has. But to be fair to Quinn, he didn't have a competent OL to protect him either. None of the QBs we've had since 1999 have had a very good OL to help them. Some have had better weapons to throw to than what we have now.
Derek Anderson disagrees.
DA was the only one of those QB's who actually got the ball out on time. There's a reason why he didn't get sacked so much.
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When he is pressured, his downfiled throws are as you described.