DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Is It Too Soon to Give Up on McCoy?

He didn't get "killed most of the day"...what game did you watch?...you know his injury came on a screen where he is supposed to take care of himself by getting rid of the ball and run backwards fast, do you?

Oh and on that TD pass to Moore he had 5+ seconds and Moore was WIDE open after 2 seconds waving for the ball...Colt saw him 3secs later when he was standing in the endzone with his back to teh goalposts) because he felt phantom pressure and took his eyes from downfield (there was not even a pocket push, pathetic...review the play he flinched for no reason) and almost managed to throw him covered (he got him a good shot from the DB of course)

and funny you mention Flacco...when he got faced with an all out blitz he threw it up for grabs deep in 1on1 coverage, he got rid of the ball in 2secs....when Colt got an all out blitz on 3rd down, he ran backwards and got sacked....there's your difference....there will always be pressure in the NFL, it's how you deal with it that separates good from crap QBs...our OL isn't even close to being a top 10 worst...

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

DJ...you just contradicted your own claim, with your comment above.

---

No, I did not because I said multiple times that I consider QB an even BIGGER need...just because we have a need at WR and RT, that doesn't absolve the QB

---

DJ...you said this...

"Putting a competent QB out there will upgrade RT and WR AND the running game instantly...we still have a big need at WR and RT"

...DJ, so you are admitting that even with a competent QB, the Browns still need to address the "big need at WR and RT"...right?

DJ...I doubt that you are capable of this, but try to imagine other rookie and 1st year QBs playing for our new HC, for our new OC in our new Offensive system after no offseason workouts, with the talent the Browns surrounded McCoy with this season.

You and others have already made up your minds on McCoy's ability to play QB at the NFL level.

Myself, I try to consider all the variables and project into the future realizing that even QBs like Drew Brees did not look so hot after 20 starts in the NFL.

That is why I started this thread..Is it too soon to give up on McCoy?

edit: double post

Can someone please answer the question of what they see that McCoy does well enough at this point to think that he could eventually be a Super Bowl winning QB?

Nobody is going to answer this....I ask this question for weeks now....you'll only hear excuses and how bad the WR and RT is...we need to draft a G and RT...then you'll see the real McCoy

He steps onto the field.



If the rest of the team sucks as bad as it does right now, then nothing else matters. No QB on earth is going to turn this lot into a contender by himself.
Winning a Super Bowl takes WAY more than just a QB... it takes an ENTIRE TEAM, and we're no closer to that now than we were in 1999... in fact, we're so damned far from it that it is pointless to wonder if he THAT guy. Right now, he's good enough for us to compete with as long as the rest of the team gets put together.


The Ravens did it with Tony Banks and Trent Dilfer. The Bucs did it with Brad Johnson.
Peyton Manning was surrounded with Hall of Fame talent, so was his brother Eli.
Aaron Rodgers is NOT a one man show, nor is Rothlisberger.

Trivia question:

How many Colts with a Ring are playing right now and how many are on IR or not playing?

My suspicion is that Shurmur has not done Colt any favors at all. I really think this offense has made Colt look worse than he really is.

Having said that, I don't think his ceiling is very high. If it was, we'd see something that we could latch onto. And I just don't see anything at all.

I'd love a strong armed QB with a brain.

Damned if I know, but the team that is in Indy is not the team that won rings.... I'm pretty sure that they're missing a couple HoF WR's.

The QB is the most important player on the field. Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson had some of the best defenses ever. And how much flack did those guys get and still get for being terrible QBs even though they have won a Super Bowl? I consider them flukes because the other side of the ball was so good. If we need that kind of defense for the ultimate goal then McCoy is not a good QB to me.

Right now I'm on the fence about McCoy. The previous two weeks I thought he did fairly well and was making progess but then the Ravens game came along and he stared down receivers and seemed to check down without looking downfield at all even when he had time. Play calling is part of the problem but I'm left wondering if the play calling is the way it is because of the QB and his limitations. We've all seen the wobbly passes and the too far left/right/high/low passes even when they are the shorter passes when he should be more accurate.

I agree. And, the great thing is that no matter which route we go if we draft wisely then we are making our team better because we have so many needs anyway (draft WR, OT first, then worry about QB later OR draft QB while in the top10).

I won't argue any of that, but the point stands that we've got soooo much more to worry about that it really does NOT matter who the QB is.

Forget about having the best defense ever... we don't even have a defense.
We don't have WR's.
We may not have any RB's is we lose Hillis.
We have only half an OLine, and less than that if Steiny doesn't come back.

Colt is nowhere near being the "elite" guy that everybody wants, but given the level of most of the other 21 guys we're putting out there, he's plenty good enough for now.

Can he win a Super Bowl.... nobody knows, and that takes as much luck as talent.
With more of a supporting cast and more time in the offense can he get us to the PlayOffs? Yes, I'd say so.

It's an easy question purp: what's he good at?

and you start babbling about Bread Johnson and Trent Dilfer and how bad the other guys are

He battles !

and I answered it... he steps onto the field.

And your maturity with player names rocks. Thanks for being classy

Quote:

---

I won't argue any of that, but the point stands that we've got soooo much more to worry about that it really does NOT matter who the QB is.

---

That's the whole point. It seems that so many want to place all the blame directly on Colt McCoy which in essence is like saying everything else is just fine.

In fact, Django just said that if we add a better QB that our Oline, Recievers and Running game would improve.

He's essentially saying that it's all on McCoy.

I've never seen a team were everyone sucked but the QB and they won anything.......

We have a ton of offensive holes to fill.. and a few on D. But I can live with our D the way it's playing., They could probably continue to keep us in games as they've done all year (with few exceptions).

So fill some holes on O, keep our D intact and hope Special teams at least remain the same and we could be a much better team.

Then we can sit down and discuss McCoy..

That's JMO... but I'm sticking to it.

McCoy isn't going anywhere and I'll wager right now that he is our Day 1 starter next season as well.... regardless of how our draft unfolds.

Even if by some strange twist in the universe that Luck falls to us, McCoy will still be the starter next season so that the new kid can sit and learn.

Luck and Brakley run the Pro style better than Colt RIGHT NOW...if we draft a QB I expect him to start day 1 and if not then it's because we dumped Colt (trade) and signed some vet FA like Orton or Campbell....no way we let Colt start as lame duck QB, that'd be cruel to him and not fair to fans and team...if we draft a QB in the top 50 he's history

and Daman, no I didn't say it's all on Colt...I said better QB play improves those positions but I still ranked them as needs...did you notice that? I guess not, you were to occupied going all Chihuahua on me...what I did and continue to say is that Colt is the biggest problem this Offense has, YES...you can quote me on that but not that it's all on Colt, that is your and others way of deflecting the discussion since you cant come up with anything he is good at....have fun, if that's what you're all about

j/c

I posted this yesterday, but it obviously got lost in the shuffle - but late 2nd quarter - or maybe 3rd quarter - middle screen was called. Might even have been the play that Colt got injured on - don't remember.........but, as the ball is snapped, pashos comes out of his stance and backpedals about 2 steps and literally falls on his ass - 100% untouched. Oh, his guy made the tackle behind the line of scrimmage by the way.

If you asked that question to any QB in their first few years, no QB would make it in this year.

That's why people compare Colt McCoy to Peyton Manning. Peyton's first couple years were brutal. Same with Drew Brees. People aren't saying that colt will end up like those guys. They are saying those guys struggled just like McCoy is struggling now.

Just a general reply:

Someone asked about the Colts, and their receiving corps is very similar to last year's.

Actually, in a lot of ways, their stats are similar to last year's ..... with one exception.

Touchdowns.

If you go through players' stats, you'll see that almost every Colt's player has seen his TD production drop off the map.

Garcon has had a better year than last year, already with more yards than last year, and the same number of TD catches.

Wayne has half the yards he had last year, and has 2 TDs as opposed to 6 last year.

Collie has about half the yards he did last year, and 0 TD compared to 8 last year.

Clark had 3 last year and 2 this year.

Tamme had 4 last year and 0 this year.

White had 5 TD catches last year, and has 0 this year.

Huge difference in TD production this year.

That's where a great QB makes a difference. Same players, far, far different results without a great QB throwing to them.

No receiver can throw himself a TD pass, no matter how good he is.

I've got a question for anyone industrious enough to look it up....

Last year, when Colt looked like he could be the guy (though I've never liked the way his passes seem to take FOREVER to get to target), how many of the guys on O were in their 2nd year of the DaBoll offense (for what it was, anyway)?


There's no doubt that McCoy looks like he has regressed and this offense is a full magnitude of suckitude worse than anything DaBoll trotted out there... I'm just trying to figure out why it might be.
Obviously the OLine was better simply by virtue of having Steiny. Having Pork Chop at RG (also in his 2nd season in the offense) was a huge plus, too. Hillis was new to it, but he was healthy and an absolute monster. MoMass was in his 2nd season, so then was Robo (for what it's worth). Who else?



Is this simply growing pains of a new, complicated scheme with EVERYBODY learning it with a ton of young players, whereas last year the core of the offense (OLine in particular) was already established in the scheme with many more experienced players??

and all those QB who failed struggled too...what's the argument? There is none...correlation doesn't implay causation, what's so hard to understand here?

Quote:

---

Is this simply growing pains of a new, complicated scheme with EVERYBODY learning it with a ton of young players, whereas last year the core of the offense (OLine in particular) was already established in the scheme with many more experienced players??

---

I've thought that this aspect has been at the core of the Browns' 2011 performance all along... which is why I've (for the most part) stayed out of the "Is Colt The Man?" discussions.

Posters can "chicken/egg" this thing to death if they want to, but from my POV, too many inter-related problems exist to parse out blame individually.

Sure, we can look at QB stats, RT protection, dropped passes, etc in their respective vacuums, but the plain truth is that each effects the rest. I know that we need specific personnel upgrades at several positions, but let's be real here- this entire team has lurched its way through the season... and I truly believe that its relative newness is the common thread that runs throughout.


.02

but it happens all the time with the newly minted drafted QB sitting behind the incumbent in order to learn the offense.

see Blaine Gabbert in JAX this year, Christian Ponder in Minn
yes, we could bring in a vet like Tenn did with Hasselbeck for Locker, but why do that when we have his potential backup on the team with McCoy (or even if we get rid of him ala the Brees v. Rivers situation in SD)?

Ok, so all his positives have pretty much nothing to do with throwing the ball...you know, that what this position requires...Robiskie was a goo blocking WR, how far did he get?

He has no quit I disagree with...when things go downhill, his game tightens up even more...against CIN after the INT he didn't even try to throw it further than 10yds from where he stood...and it was a tie game/3p game...I see A LOT of quit in his game...he doesn't do what a QB is supposed to do in certain low % situations....he's happy with just not losing higher

Discussed the toughness before...it's overrated, he's no puss like Quinn but it's overrated because of his size...his size doesn't matter, he's an AVG tough QB and he flinches an awful lot for a "tough" QB, experiencing phantom pressure and when he ran out of bounds on 3rd down & inches before the 1st down (vbs CIN early in the game) I didn't see an especially tough QB that gave 100% getting the 1st down and extending the drive (the that got overturned)...he didn't even stretch the hand with the ball thing, he just ran oob and saw the marker...a "tough" QB makes sure he gets the 1st down there imho

His escapability is also nothing extraordinary...Colt guesses a lot in the pocket since he has absolutely no feel for it, thus the phantom flinches and too early take offs or holding on too long to the ball...this take off guessing results in 2 plays....he gets free and gets 5-15yds or he runs straight into a sack...we've seen both of that ALL YEAR....guessing in the pocket is not what I'd call "escapability"

I applaud you for this post, even if I disagree on some...at least you wrote what you think he's good at

Quote:

---

Ok, so all his positives have pretty much nothing to do with throwing the ball...you know, that what this position requires

---

Hehe! It's a perfect match, because none of our WR's best attributes have anything to do with catching the ball

I like the points you make about other QB. What I fail to understand is why most Colt haters have such blinders on and why the Colt lovers can't see his imperfections. All things equal, Colt has a long way to go, but being realistic in assessments of him results in seeing that he CLEARLY is at a disadvantage in terms of the talent around him. For the record, I need to see Colt in an offense next year with more playmakers and a better line.

On another note, for those that are so adamant that this is the year to draft a QB, I ask you why? Because there are so many "pro ready" QB? If any of you have the stones to say that you knew that this years QB class would be so good aside from Luck, you are a LIAR. Every year these QB come out of nowhere to rise up the chart and inevitably a ton of them are unsuccessful. Hell, just last year, going into the NCAA season, Locker and Mallett were the two "Can't Miss" prospects and they both had horrible years, subsequently fell in the draft giving way to the likes of Newton, Gabbert, Ponder and Dalton. I'm sure that some on here will say they knew that would be the outcome, but I doubt that is accurate. The reality is, every year is a crap shoot, REGARDLESS of what slot you draft in and what position you take.

For those that think the QB position is one in which you draft and build around him, I present the two most dominant teams in our division. Roethlisberger and Flacco were both plugged into offenses that were already built, and to think that that did not aid in thier development is foolish. To have a ready made situation where you have runningbacks like Bettis, Parker, McGahee and McClain and WR like Ward, Burress, Mason and Clayton, not to mention the OL and the smothering defenses, creates a much more conducive environment to succeed than what we have continually placed any of our QB in, aside from maybe Anderson in 2007. Both had the luxury of reloading positions on both sides of the ball by the time either of them showed up. It's a tough situation we are in where both sides of the ball are so terrible that we continually have to try to find blue chippers in the draft to fix all positions. That is one reason why I haven't been upset with the draft direction these last two years. Build the D, then build the O. Thus allowing you to plug n play the way most other teams do.

Also, to say that the QB named like Johnson and Dilfer, and to a further extent Grossman, succeeded because thier defenses bolsters this arguement. Would any of us posting here honestly care who our QB was if we at least got to the dance? To even get that far, something has to be going great and I'm pretty positive that any weak link would lose some of the attention in the haze of positivity about finally reaching that point. To bring in a point like "Do you think he's a Super Bowl QB" is so far outside of reality in the current situation that it is asinine to even bring it up. Think about it. Does anyone think that Greg Little is a Super Bowl winning WR? Or is Chris Gocong a Super Bowl winning LBer? I concede that QB is one of the most important positions on the field, but as some posters have pointed out, it still is a TEAM game and it takes effort from all members of the TEAM to succeed.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do know that to indict someone on flimsy evidence is inexcuseable. Colt may very well wash out, or he could develop into a stud with the proper pieces around him. The long and short of it right now is we simply do not know. None of us do. And I'd wager a guess that Homlgren, Heckert and even Shurmur don't either. There are too many other glaring weaknesses staring all of us collectively in the face.

You mix up "better" with "good"...a better WR and RT also would make Colt "better", but he'd still be not good...but my argument is and was that a QB makes the other MORE better than an upgrade at RT and WR would make Colt better...get it now? "Upgrade" doesn't mean "good"..just better than before...RT and WR remain need even if we ship Colt to Turkmenistan

Fair post, I'm well aware that our problems go further than McCoy, but am of the opinion that you won't win consistently with a QB like him even if everything else is in place (ask Grossman), otoh look at the Colts, who have half a roster of merely AVG starting players (or even the Pats, their D is pretty crappy)..but the QB bails them out more often than not and they're yearly contenders because of it

A good QB is harder to find, but it's easier to carry a team with a good QB than a good team carrying a meh QB and it takes more time to draft a complete team than finding that QB (if you knwo what you're looking at...and I trust H&H to find the right 1st round QB)...most of those teams are 1year wonders like the Chiefs last season and we've been there after 2007...this year's candidate are the 49ers ....they'll fall down hard next season with A.Smith...you want a consistent winner? You need a QB...look at the yearly contenders...that's where the top QBs play

Oh, and I found this comment by Ed Reed interesting, further proving my point:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7299321/nfl-baltimore-raven-ed-reed-being-elite-safety

Who are the toughest QBs to read? Brady. Peyton. Brees. Rivers. Palmer.

The easiest? Younger guys -- and most of the QBs in Cleveland.

Reed pretty much lumps Colt in with Frye and Quinn

+1

Quote:

---

Who are the toughest QBs to read? Brady. Peyton. Brees. Rivers. Palmer.

The easiest? Younger guys -- and most of the QBs in Cleveland.

---

Ouch.

Quote:

---

The easiest? Younger guys -- and most of the QBs in Cleveland.

---

That's a big Lou Groza kick right to the uprights!