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You mix up "better" with "good"...a better WR and RT also would make Colt "better", but he'd still be not good...but my argument is and was that a QB makes the other MORE better than an upgrade at RT and WR would make Colt better...get it now? "Upgrade" doesn't mean "good"..just better than before...RT and WR remain need even if we ship Colt to Turkmenistan
Good Lord man...keep it coming...please..I am dying here.
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I present the two most dominant teams in our division. Roethlisberger and Flacco were both plugged into offenses that were already built,
And did U see them play college ball?
Sometimes that doesn't translate to the pro game..but I remember watching Rottenburger and bringing it up on this board that he looked NFL ready..just told people he was also a Pukesburgh fan..Flacco I read a lot about and it said he was a NFL type QB..skill has a lot to do with it..because you can't plug a sucky QB into a good system(only a few exceptions like Dilfer) and he rise above that..BR makes plays on his own outside of what talent the Steelers have and Flacco..well he makes due although his weaknesses crop up more glaringly now.
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JC
IMO.. Until Steiny is back and we replace the right side of the oline it won't matter who the QB is. And bear in mind Steiny may not be back at the level he was before a back injury. We may have to look seriously at drafting his future replacement.
We need LB's, CB prolly another DE.. the list just goes on.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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and all those QB who failed struggled too...what's the argument? There is none...correlation doesn't implay causation, what's so hard to understand here?
And yet some on here try to tell us that a "stud" qb will make the receivers better, the o line better.........and probably the d better.
Correlation doesn't imply causation. Unless someone wants it to.
I really wish I'd said that
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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And bear in mind Steiny may not be back at the level he was before a back injury. We may have to look seriously at drafting his future replacement.
I've been meaning to mention that, when Eric's name has come up. If the FO is being prudent, they're already preparing for that eventuality... because even if he comes back 100%, how many more seasons will he last at pre-injury levels?
Something for the draftniks to consider, when filling out their mocks.....
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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I like the points you make about other QB. What I fail to understand is why most Colt haters have such blinders on and why the Colt lovers can't see his imperfections. All things equal, Colt has a long way to go, but being realistic in assessments of him results in seeing that he CLEARLY is at a disadvantage in terms of the talent around him. For the record, I need to see Colt in an offense next year with more playmakers and a better line.
On another note, for those that are so adamant that this is the year to draft a QB, I ask you why? Because there are so many "pro ready" QB? If any of you have the stones to say that you knew that this years QB class would be so good aside from Luck, you are a LIAR. Every year these QB come out of nowhere to rise up the chart and inevitably a ton of them are unsuccessful. Hell, just last year, going into the NCAA season, Locker and Mallett were the two "Can't Miss" prospects and they both had horrible years, subsequently fell in the draft giving way to the likes of Newton, Gabbert, Ponder and Dalton. I'm sure that some on here will say they knew that would be the outcome, but I doubt that is accurate. The reality is, every year is a crap shoot, REGARDLESS of what slot you draft in and what position you take.
For those that think the QB position is one in which you draft and build around him, I present the two most dominant teams in our division. Roethlisberger and Flacco were both plugged into offenses that were already built, and to think that that did not aid in thier development is foolish. To have a ready made situation where you have runningbacks like Bettis, Parker, McGahee and McClain and WR like Ward, Burress, Mason and Clayton, not to mention the OL and the smothering defenses, creates a much more conducive environment to succeed than what we have continually placed any of our QB in, aside from maybe Anderson in 2007. Both had the luxury of reloading positions on both sides of the ball by the time either of them showed up. It's a tough situation we are in where both sides of the ball are so terrible that we continually have to try to find blue chippers in the draft to fix all positions. That is one reason why I haven't been upset with the draft direction these last two years. Build the D, then build the O. Thus allowing you to plug n play the way most other teams do.
Also, to say that the QB named like Johnson and Dilfer, and to a further extent Grossman, succeeded because thier defenses bolsters this arguement. Would any of us posting here honestly care who our QB was if we at least got to the dance? To even get that far, something has to be going great and I'm pretty positive that any weak link would lose some of the attention in the haze of positivity about finally reaching that point. To bring in a point like "Do you think he's a Super Bowl QB" is so far outside of reality in the current situation that it is asinine to even bring it up. Think about it. Does anyone think that Greg Little is a Super Bowl winning WR? Or is Chris Gocong a Super Bowl winning LBer? I concede that QB is one of the most important positions on the field, but as some posters have pointed out, it still is a TEAM game and it takes effort from all members of the TEAM to succeed.
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do know that to indict someone on flimsy evidence is inexcuseable. Colt may very well wash out, or he could develop into a stud with the proper pieces around him. The long and short of it right now is we simply do not know. None of us do. And I'd wager a guess that Homlgren, Heckert and even Shurmur don't either. There are too many other glaring weaknesses staring all of us collectively in the face.
I agree with alot of what you are saying with this exception. I think Holmgren,Heckert and Shurmur will have had the time to know what they need to know about Colt McCoy by years end to know wether Colt McCoy is the QB going forward. I just hope we don't go into next season with the " we have to see what we have in McCoy" mindset.
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Go look at the difference Manning makes to his team.
I posted the difference in TDs above. It's a huge difference. A great QB makes plays. He throws TD passes. A so-so QB does not. A great QB hits guys in their break, or in stride. A so-so QB makes his receivers wait for the ball. A great QB hits his receivers when they are breaking free for TDs. A so-so QB floats the ball, or overthrows his target.
The Colts are largely the same on offense this year compared to last, except for their QB. Manning was great. Painter sucks. Orlovsky came in and played for the Colts last week and went 30-37 for 353 yards, 2 TD and 1 INT. They scored 24 points against the Patriots and their 13th ranked scoring defense. Now the Patriots do allow yardage in their pass defense, but they are good at preventing scores. The week before, Painter started for the Colts, and he went 15-29 for 226 yards, 1 TD and 2 INT. The Panthers defense sucks. They are 29th in scoring defense, and are so-so in pass defense. They are much like us in that they get run over a lot, so teams don't have to pass as much against them.
Anyway ...... for the year, Painter is 132-243 for 1541 yards, 6 TD and 9 INT. That's in 9 games. (and is pathetic) Compare that with hos Orlovsky did in just one game. The 24 points he put up is tied for the most they have scored all year. They play the Ravens, so it will be interesting to see how the QB change affects their offense. I bet that he throws for more than 200 yards.
Look at Painter's numbers and compare them to Manning's last year. Largely the same cast of characters, but far, far, far different results. Far fewer TD passes. Far fewer TD runs. Teams don't have to take chances against the Colt's offense with Painter in the game. (sound familiar?)
A QB makes a huge difference on an offense. He makes more of a difference than any other 3 positions combined. A QB can make receivers better or worse. He can make his line look better, or worse. He either helps his running game, or hurts it.
I have 3 questions that I would like to ask regarding McCoy, and anyone that wants to can answer them.
1) Can you say that McCoy helps, or hurts, his receivers? Does he put the ball in a catchable location, on time, and on target ..... or is he late, and off target more often than not? Does he hit his receivers in stride, while they are breaking open, or does he wait until the defense is waiting to clobber them?
2) Does McCoy effectively use his pocket, or does he seem to move blindly and unaware of what is happening around him? Does he show that awareness to see a blitz off the right side, (where he is facing) or does he miss it and take a sack? Is he aware when a CB is blitzing from the outside? Does he effectively step up and find a throwing lane while keeping his attention downfield?
3) Does McCoy help his running game by throwing intermediate, deep, and outside passes to keep the defense from stacking the middle, or does he predominantly throw to the middle of the field, inside the hashmarks, mostly short passes? (unless he rolls out) Does he cause the defense to worry about pass plays down the field, or to the outside, or does he throw mostly the safe passes that a defense can defense on the way to playing the run?
I think that McCoy is a very limited, below average starting QB. The 3 areas I listed above are a big part of why I believe this. A major lack of big plays would be #4. I am curious as to how others see these areas.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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1) Can you say that McCoy helps, or hurts, his receivers? Does he put the ball in a catchable location, on time, and on target ..... or is he late, and off target more often than not? Does he hit his receivers in stride, while they are breaking open, or does he wait until the defense is waiting to clobber them?
Ask Massaquoi.
There was one play sunday, it was either Mass or Litte, they were basically standing still, and Colt through it to a spot that caused them to move DIRECTLY into a hit...
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2) Does McCoy effectively use his pocket, or does he seem to move blindly and unaware of what is happening around him? Does he show that awareness to see a blitz off the right side, (where he is facing) or does he miss it and take a sack? Is he aware when a CB is blitzing from the outside? Does he effectively step up and find a throwing lane while keeping his attention downfield?
I think a bad part of the evolution of McCoy, is that they have beaten ALL of the Texas out of him, He stood there on the 5 yard line, NOONE infront of him, could of easily ran it in... Didn't.
Does he get hit alot? Sure, is more than half the hits his fault? I think so.
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3) Does McCoy help his running game by throwing intermediate, deep, and outside passes to keep the defense from stacking the middle, or does he predominantly throw to the middle of the field, inside the hashmarks, mostly short passes? (unless he rolls out) Does he cause the defense to worry about pass plays down the field, or to the outside, or does he throw mostly the safe passes that a defense can defense on the way to playing the run?
On the Jimmy Smith INT, MoMass ran an out, a ROOKIE DB KNEW we weren't going deep, and under cut the route. Had we ran an out and up at any point they would have been wide open...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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The argument is that the good guys and the bad guys all sucked early in their careers. Peyton Manning in his first year was brutal. So was (insert whatever crappy QB you want).
You can compare Colt's body of work right now to Manning, and you can compare them to Quinn or Frye or whatever. You can draw parallels to both and make an effort at why you want to annoint/trash McCoy.
Making snap judgements (like you wanting to ship him out, and people last year saying he was our QB for the next 80 years) is silly at this point in our career.
Can we upgrade the QB position? Absolutely! Should we? Probably, as all signs currently point to yes. Will we? I just hope we don't sell the farm in this draft to do it. I don't see us picking up a blue chip QB prospect with the state of the rest of the team. That goes back to what I said earlier, any young quarterback will struggle early, and any QB will be held back by the overall talent level of this team.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
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Colt is Frye 2.0
Their games are very similar. Both check down far too often. Both don't have the arm strength. Both take idiotic sacks.
The only reason I don't refer to Colt as "#12" like I called Frye "#9" is because I think Colt is 10 times the leader #9 ever was, and he doesn't take as many dumb sacks. #9 made a mockery of the QB position with his pocket presence.
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Manning threw for 3739 yards, 6.50 yards/attempt, completed 56.7% of his passes, and threw for 26 TDs and 28 INT.
Like many young hotshot QBs, he had to learn to rein in his game a bit, and not to throw into situations where he could not go without getting the ball intercepted. He actually threw 11 of his INT in the1st 4 games of his career.
There really is no comparison. Manning took lumps right off the bat, adjusted, and never looked back. His 1st 4 games were 3 TD and 11 INT. He adjusted, and got better from there on. He then made a huge jump in his 2nd season. There is no comparison whatsoever. he never really "sucked" except for his 1st 4 games.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Colt is Frye 2.0
Their games are very similar. Both check down far too often. Both don't have the arm strength. Both take idiotic sacks.
The only reason I don't refer to Colt as "#12" like I called Frye "#9" is because I think Colt is 10 times the leader #9 ever was, and he doesn't take as many dumb sacks. #9 made a mockery of the QB position with his pocket presence.
The Colt = Frye argument is such BS.
If they are equal in the NFL - which I say they are not and you say they are - then fine.
Their respective college careers are the next - and only - meaningful/measuring criteria at this point...and that is not even close and not even slightly debateable.
Colt needs to get (and be) much, much better...however...comparing him to Frye is simply ridiculous.
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Funny stuff, but while looking the ESPN's stats for our WRs, I decided to look at the splits for McCoy: McCoy Splits Scroll down to where it splits by play direction. We throw over 57% of our pass to the right side. Those passes go for the shortest average gains when compared to the middle or left side. Seven of McCoy's 8 ints have come when we throw to the right. McCoy's rating is the worst when we throw to the right. If I can see it just by looking at the stats, you don't think the opposing defenses see it? They only have to really defend about 1/3 of the field. Always blitz from that side (where our OL is weakest). The real question is, is McCoy unable to throw the ball left? Or is the coaching staff focusing the offense to that side? Why aren't we throwing left, when we are more successful when we do happen to throw it left? Can someone ask the coaching staff this? Please?
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The sad part is, he's actually gotten better about it as the season has gone on.
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Actually, it's not ridiculous comparing him to Frye.
Both struggle in the pocket. Both throw predominantly short, and are fairly accurate within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. Both struggle with ball placement, and in accuracy on the deep pass. Frye threw more INT. Neither can throw the "power throws" with any consistency.
The 2 QB are very much alike in many ways.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Why do you guys keep comparing Colt to Manning and Rodgers?
No one...NO ONE...expects Colt to EVER be equal to those guys...let alone in the middle of his second year.
How many 3rd round QBs - who end up starting in their second year on simply AWFUL teams - get compared to two established STUDS/HOFers?
It's ridicuous.
Let's compare him to the Rex Grossmans, Josh Freemans, and Jason Campbells before we compare him to the established greats.
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Frye - in his wildest dreams - could/was never what Colt is already.
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I have 3 questions that I would like to ask regarding McCoy, and anyone that wants to can answer them.
1) Can you say that McCoy helps, or hurts, his receivers? Does he put the ball in a catchable location, on time, and on target (he threw one TD pass and three other NFL caliber throws that were all dropped...just this last game) ..... or is he late, and off target more often than not?(No...not more often than not...but he does need to get better and the receivers need to run the right - and effective - routes) Does he hit his receivers in stride (sometimes...and sometimes they simply drop the ball), while they are breaking open, or does he wait until the defense is waiting to clobber them(both...just like a reasonable person would expect from a young QB in a new system with simply awful WRs)?
2) Does McCoy effectively use his pocket (sometimes...on the occasions he gets a real one...just like a young QB might do with a sieve as an OL), or does he seem to move blindly and unaware of what is happening around him(sometimes...I don't see how anyone can blame him for being skittish with his present protectors at LG, RG, & RT)? Does he show that awareness to see a blitz off the right side, (where he is facing) or does he miss it and take a sack(both...sometimes he sees it before he gets to his third step in the drop...that almost always results in him taking a sack)? Is he aware when a CB is blitzing from the outside? (I don't remember much blitzing by opponent CBs because the pressure is great enough along the line) Does he effectively step up and find a throwing lane while keeping his attention downfield(sometimes...just like a young QB would do with the shaky line we have and total lack of a good/established WR and missing a real NFL running back to rely on)?
3) Does McCoy help his running game by throwing intermediate, deep, and outside passes to keep the defense from stacking the middle(sometimes...many times he appears to have receivers only in that short frame...many times that throw is all there is to be had), or does he predominantly throw to the middle of the field, inside the hashmarks, mostly short passes? (unless he rolls out)(he does that a lot...not sure where the real problem lies...I'm thinking the WRs and the play-calling are also to blame) Does he cause the defense to worry about pass plays down the field(I'm not sure we call that very often...I've seen him do it...not enough tho...but who is he going to throw it to? Hillis?), or to the outside, or does he throw mostly the safe passes that a defense can defense on the way to playing the run(Is that him, his talent, or the play-calling?)
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It seems that so many want to place all the blame directly on Colt McCoy which in essence is like saying everything else is just fine.
So many? That's a load of crap. I don't think a single person here who is critical of McCoy is placing all of the blame on his shoulders.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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If you have the opinion that McCoy has faults, that usually translates into someone claiming you think everything is his fault...
Basically unless your a "Wait and See" or a "We have to improve the team first" kind of poster, then you hate Colt and your opinion is invalid...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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It seems that so many want to place all the blame directly on Colt McCoy which in essence is like saying everything else is just fine.
So many? That's a load of crap. I don't think a single person here who is critical of McCoy is placing all of the blame on his shoulders.
exactly. in successive plays evan moore drops a TD pass then McCoy doesn't a wide open TE in the right flat and makes a contested throw late to Greg Little over the middle in the red zone. And all that is during our D getting completely run over.
We stink. McCoy is part of it. He's not all of it. He needs to be replaced (I think ) and he's far from the only one.
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The reason I'm so quick to give up on Colt: I've seen this script before.
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League average for drops is 20. If McCoy's receivers were at 20 drops instead of 35, his QBR goes to 83.5 which puts him at #15 in league stats. Which does not make him elite, but does make him average. IMO, "average" is not a bad place to be when you're a young QB. Especially given the state of the OL and the suckitude of play-calling coming from the OC.
Make sure you add in the dropped interceptions above league average as well. And if you want an even more accurate picture, take away garbage time stat padding as well.
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It seems that so many want to place all the blame directly on Colt McCoy which in essence is like saying everything else is just fine.
So many? That's a load of crap. I don't think a single person here who is critical of McCoy is placing all of the blame on his shoulders.
I think that the people who think Colt can't be the guy tend to understate the problems around him.
I think the rest of the people want to see more of him with some competent talent around him.
The difference?
The "Colt isn't the guy" crowd have already determined that he is not - and will not - be the guy.
Everyone else is saying "maybe he is and maybe he isn't".
Both camps are acknowledging that there is more to the problem than just the QB. But one group has drawn their final conclusion and one has not.
Yep...that sums it up.
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Manning threw for 3739 yards, 6.50 yards/attempt, completed 56.7% of his passes, and threw for 26 TDs and 28 INT.
Like many young hotshot QBs, he had to learn to rein in his game a bit, and not to throw into situations where he could not go without getting the ball intercepted. He actually threw 11 of his INT in the1st 4 games of his career.
There really is no comparison. Manning took lumps right off the bat, adjusted, and never looked back. His 1st 4 games were 3 TD and 11 INT. He adjusted, and got better from there on. He then made a huge jump in his 2nd season. There is no comparison whatsoever. he never really "sucked" except for his 1st 4 games.
Good points, also figure that defensive rules have changed since Manning's rookie year. The two big ones are emphasis on calling defensive holding and cracking down on hits on 'defenseless' receivers. It is no coincidence that QB numbers have been inflated in the last decade or so.
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Make sure you add in the dropped interceptions above league average as well.
Do we really lead the league in interceptions that should have occured but didn't? Interesting.
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And if you want an even more accurate picture, take away garbage time stat padding as well.
What is he supposed to do in garbage time? Fall down and quit?
Stats are funny.
Dropped passes by your own receivers seems to be a meaningful stat.
Garbage time stats - under any criteria - seem to be meaningless.
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and Daman, no I didn't say it's all on Colt...
In effect,, you did.. If you wanna tell me and everyone else that with a better QB, the line plays better, the Running game improves and WR's improve.. Then you are in effect, laying everything right at Colts feet..
I don't know how you change a QB and suddenly, Receivers catch balls that they currently drop.. I don't know how having a better QB will fix an Oline that let's defenders come through untouched and same holds true for the running game.
#GMSTRONG
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In effect,, you did.. If you wanna tell me and everyone else that with a better QB, the line plays better, the Running game improves and WR's improve.. Then you are in effect, laying everything right at Colts feet..
With a better QB, the line plays better, the running game improves, and the WRs improve. I'll also add the defense improves.
This is a 100% accurate statement. It's no coincidence that it takes a top 10 QB to win the Super Bowl every year.
Whether you want to believe it or not. But I don't think it's that you don't want to believe it ... it's that you just don't get it.
It's the one ultimate truth of the NFL.
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Some of our fans watch Aaron Rogers and Drew Brees, wondering if the Browns will ever have a QB that can do what they do on a football field. I know I do...
I did a little research, something I do quite often when I'm trying to arrive at an "informed opinion", based on facts, not emotions.
One of the criticisms of McCoy is that he is too small and his arm is too weak..so what are the facts?
McCoy is 6-1 (185m)...Drew Brees is listed at 6-1 (183m)...Aaron Rogers is 6-2 (188m)...obviously, McCoy "is not" too short.
McCoy is listed at 216lbs...Brees is listed at 209...Rogers is listed at 225... McCoy "is not" too small.
...I would like to see him work on the weights in the offseason, improving his strength and adding some muscle. I read that McCoy rested his arm after last season, admitting that he was not fully recovered from the injury he suffered in the BCS Championship game...therefore, I doubt McCoy did much work on building himself up in the offseason.
When I look at McCoy (vs Brees and Rogers)...I see a "young man" who has not fully matured yet..mentally and physically. I see a young man who has not reached his full potential..someone who has room to grow and improve.
...Brees is 32 and in his 11 season
...Rogers is in 28 and in his 7 season
...McCoy turned 25 in Sept and is in his 2nd season
Aaron Rogers...everyone knows his story, being allowed to sit behind Favre for 3 seasons, learning the offense while working on his game without the pressure of starting. Today, in his 7th season, Rogers is at the top of his game, playing in the same offensive system for 6 yrs, surrounded by talented WRs an outstanding offensive line and a good running game...Rogers has all the support a QB could want.
Drew Brees..most know his history too..now in his 11th season, has played for two different teams, Chargers and Saints..the Chargers obviously did not believe Brees could be the man and they drafted Phillip Rivers in 2004, who was Brees' backup in 2004 and 2005.
I went back a few years and found a pre draft scouting report on Brees...among his negatives..
...he played in the spread
...he took most snaps in the shotgun
...he threw side arm on long throws, lacked accuracy and touch on long throws
...the report said Brees seems more comfortable in short and intermediate passing.
I checked out Drew Brees' Pro bio..
...Brees was drafted in 2001 and started one game his rookie year.
...2nd season he started 16 games
...3rd season he lost his starting job to Doug Flutie
...4th season, Brees started 15 games and the Chargers won 12 games and made the playoffs.
...5th season, Brees starts all 16 games, Chargers miss playoffs with 9-7 record,
...Brees is hurt in the final game..Chargers let Brees walk in favor of Phillip Rivers.
The Chargers gave up on Drew Brees...some considered Brees too short and coming out of college, some questioned his ability to throw the long ball. But, Drew Brees was willing to work hard to improve himself and he developed into a Super Bowl winning QB at the age of 30, in his 9th season in the NFL...after the Chargers gave up on him.
COLT McCOY...as a rookie, he was considered an after thought by Mangini and his offensive coordinator, Brian Daboll. We all know the story of how McCoy did not even get the game plan when the #1 and #2 QBs did and we read the story of how Daboll treated McCoy like crap until the Browns were forced to start McCoy because of injury to Delhomme and Wallace.
McCoy did not play poorly last season, all things considered, starting 8 games.
McCoy's 2nd season, new HC/OC, with a new playbook to learn, but the players are "locked out" in March with no contact allowed between coaches and players. McCoy takes the lead and holds 3 off season camps in an effort to do something to help the team.
As a fan, it has been a frustrating year, watching the Browns offense struggle to learn Shurmur's offensive system. Even yesterday, 12 games into the season, many times it appeared that our WRs were not on the same page as the QB. It is so easy to point fingers at the QB and proclaim, he is the problem and the Browns need to draft a QB.
Just one question for my fellow Browns fans...taking time to read a little history about Rogers and Brees...comparing their history in the NFL to McCoy's...is it too soon to give up on Colt McCoy?
IS IT TOO SOON to kick Colt McCoy to the curb?
I think for the front office and coach, scapegoating may be the order of the day and mcCoy is at risk to go.
Why.
>when asked last week if COACHING were the problem after the Cinci loss Josh Cribbs said i won't comment on that, and did by that response. he result is he was FROZE out of the gameplan completely.
>I rarely ever see the Coach do anything but grimace on the sidelines and rarely ever see him even LOOK at McCoy.
>The Front office is to blame by declaring the Oline and Wr positions as fit and McCoy has lookout blockers and dropsy receivers. Yet rarely are the recievers(TEs,Cribbs,Hillis) thrown the ball that catch it. Some game plan.
After two beatdowns by the Steelers and another by baltimore scapegoats will be needed by the front office
>Hillis, Cribbs, McCoy...color them GONE.
It should be Holmgren and his lackey Shurmer.
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Do we really lead the league in interceptions that should have occured but didn't? Interesting.
I don't know. It's not an official stat, but based on watching a lot of football, it's my opinion that defenses have dropped a lot of potential interceptions, i.e. way more than normal. Maybe it's variance, maybe ducks are harder to catch than clean spirals, or maybe my observation is wrong.
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What is he supposed to do in garbage time? Fall down and quit?
Stats are funny.
Dropped passes by your own receivers seems to be a meaningful stat.
Garbage time stats - under any criteria - seem to be meaningless.
I replied to someone using stats as a barometer of Colt's play relative to other QBs. Pointing out that a lot of our passing yardage came against soft defenses when the game was realistically out of reach seems reasonable.
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Luck and Brakley run the Pro style better than Colt RIGHT NOW...if we draft a QB I expect him to start day 1 and if not then it's because we dumped Colt (trade) and signed some vet FA like Orton or Campbell....no way we let Colt start as lame duck QB, that'd be cruel to him and not fair to fans and team...if we draft a QB in the top 50 he's history
and Daman, no I didn't say it's all on Colt...I said better QB play improves those positions but I still ranked them as needs...did you notice that? I guess not, you were to occupied going all Chihuahua on me...what I did and continue to say is that Colt is the biggest problem this Offense has, YES...you can quote me on that but not that it's all on Colt, that is your and others way of deflecting the discussion since you cant come up with anything he is good at....have fun, if that's what you're all about
I'm not sure that I agree with all of this. The NFL is an inherently cruel business and drafting future starters over a current player happens all the time. Like I see your point given that we made Colt the unquestioned starter this year, but I have always considered Colt a standup guy and what better way to prove that than by continuing to act like a true professional?
It's not like teams were viewing him as a starter during the '10 draft, otherwise he wouldn't have nearly fallen to the 4th round. Going into next year I don't think many if any teams will be looking at him as a starter either. I hope we keep him as a backup...
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It's not that some don't get it.
Some just don't get it soon enough.
I have long said blown picks are bad enough( I don't really consider Colt a blown pick, he is a 3rd round qb...they usually don't make it), what is worse is sticking with that pick to long.
At this point it isn't to long with Colt, but the time is up. We need to make plans. He may still start next year, but there needs to be the next guy sitting on the bench.
If we allow this to linger without a plan B already on board, we'll suck another 6-7 years since everybody will get canned and we will be starting over again in 2013 or 14.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said
#gmstrong
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Totally agree ^
Fans of teams that have legitimate above average quarterbacks don't argue about these things, and there are at least a half dozen fan bases that insist they have the best QB in the league.
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Quote:
It's not that some don't get it.
Some just don't get it soon enough.
I have long said blown picks are bad enough( I don't really consider Colt a blown pick, he is a 3rd round qb...they usually don't make it), what is worse is sticking with that pick to long.
At this point it isn't to long with Colt, but the time is up. We need to make plans. He may still start next year, but there needs to be the next guy sitting on the bench.
If we allow this to linger without a plan B already on board, we'll suck another 6-7 years since everybody will get canned and we will be starting over again in 2013 or 14.
Cannot agree more.
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I replied to someone using stats as a barometer of Colt's play relative to other QBs. Pointing out that a lot of our passing yardage came against soft defenses when the game was realistically out of reach seems reasonable.
I wasn't implying that you were being the "stat guy". I just  when people talk about Colt "padding" his stats during garbage time.
It is what it is in garbage time...it's not like he can make the Ds STOP acting like it's garbage time...padding is NOT what he is doing...it's just the nature of garbage time...not something intentional to make himself look good.
Unfortunately, we get a lot of garbage time time, and therefore a lot of garbage time stats.
It's either get the garbage time stats or curl into the fetal position until the time runs out...it's simply not stat "padding" on Colt's part. (Not saying you are THAT guy either.)
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I can't argue with that line of thinking peen. Holmgren seemed to do just that drafting quite a few qb's over the years in seattle.
I get your point about staying with a lost cause too long. Nobody wants to see that.
What i can't for the life of me agree with is the time frame.
Like Colt or not he is at least one of 32 qb's playing the game in the NFL. Picked by a guy that is one of 32 gm's. Coached by one of 32 coaches.
These guys are the best of the best. Now some will succeed...and some will fail but these people saw something that set all these players above the rest of the college ranks.
Every single player on an NFL team has talent. The real question is what do they do with it? What situation are they in?
I can see Holmgren's point about 2 years in the same system with the same coach. A player gains experience. They have the opportunity to correct mistakes. Work on short-comings.
It's foolish to compare colt to manning, or rodgers....its equally foolish to compare him to frye, or any other failure...why?
Because of time...we see the result of years of experience and say i want that now.
I want colt to succeed, because we need a qb. He may or he may not. Time will tell...i hope he gets enough.
The reality of it is that none of us were probably as good at our jobs in our first year, as we are with a few years of experience. Add in the fact that the NFL has really intelligent people that do nothing but try and make you look like a fool when you show up for work..show you something you haven't seen..ect. A new guy is at a severe dis-advantage.
This offense probably doesn't even know their whole playbook yet. I get the impatience...i just don't think its realistic.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Why do you guys keep comparing Colt to Manning and Rodgers?
No one...NO ONE...expects Colt to EVER be equal to those guys...let alone in the middle of his second year.
How many 3rd round QBs - who end up starting in their second year on simply AWFUL teams - get compared to two established STUDS/HOFers?
It's ridicuous.
Let's compare him to the Rex Grossmans, Josh Freemans, and Jason Campbells before we compare him to the established greats.
Because the post I responded to brought up Manning.
Maybe I should have answered that post by comparing him with Spurgeon Wynn?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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However, if you look at the games when he has .. say .... 120 yards passing 5 minutes into the 4th quarter, and then he racks up 80 more yards, going 7-9 with a TD in a game where we are down by 2 or more scores, with 4, 5, or 6 minutes left .... that is pure garbage time. Obviously the other team does not want to give up a score, but they simply do not care if the other team uses up the whole damn clock in that situation.
Look at the Raiders game. McCoy went 21/45 for 215 yards, with a pair of TDs. However, until 4:44 left in the game it was 24-10.
On the drive starting with 4:44 left in the game, McCoy went 9-11 for 94 yards (there was a sack in there) and a TD.
Then we recovered an onside kick.
Now the pressure is on. We can tie the game up with a TD.
McCoy goes 1-4 for 7 yards. We started at the Oakland 49 with 1:06 left in the game. We needed throws down the field. We got throws within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage exclusively, 3 incomplete, and IIRC, 2 wildly off target.
So .... for 3 quarters and 8 or so minutes of that game McCoy went 11-30 for 115 yards and a TD. That was when the game was in the balance.
Look at the Ravens game. With 6:51 left in the game, and the Ravens up 24-3, McCoy starts on another epic wasted drive. He goes 5-8 for 68 yards and a TD.
He went 17-35 for 192 with 1 TD and 1 INT to that point.
That means that until 7 minutes left in a lost game, he went 12-28 for 124 yards and an INT. (and that INT cost us a FG right before the half)
Granted he had some drops. That sucks. Torrey Smith had a couple of drops for the Ravens too. However, the passing game is simply not generating anything when the game is in the balance. A lot of that is on the QB. He got some pressure in the Ravens game. The Ravens lead the league in sacks. They bring pressure on their own mothers and fathers on "parents day". McCoy did have a clean pocket on many occasions. In fact, much of the game was played without pressure at all. On 39 pass drop backs, McCoy was sacked 4 times and hit 4 times. He may have seen some pressure on other plays, but against a great defensive front like the Ravens, that's about as good as you can hope for. Hell, they killed Alex Smith just the week before.
The 49'ers game was a similar story. McCoy actually had a decent stat day, going 22-34 for 241 yards with a TD and an INT. However, until 8:41 left in the game, with the 49ers up 20-3, he was sitting at 16-26 for 141 yards with an INT. This is a recurring theme. Hopeless, lost games and he turns it on. The pressure comes off, prevent comes on, and he's a world beater. He pads his stats nicely in junk time.
People want to talk about drops and such, but man, there are 3 games with this type of situation, and there might be more, with the same story. His garbage time stats more than balance out the drops. He is what his numbers say he is. He is a below average QB with many flaws in his game, and probably too many to ever overcome.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I replied to someone using stats as a barometer of Colt's play relative to other QBs. Pointing out that a lot of our passing yardage came against soft defenses when the game was realistically out of reach seems reasonable.
I wasn't implying that you were being the "stat guy". I just when people talk about Colt "padding" his stats during garbage time.
It is what it is in garbage time...it's not like he can make the Ds STOP acting like it's garbage time...padding is NOT what he is doing...it's just the nature of garbage time...not something intentional to make himself look good.
Unfortunately, we get a lot of garbage time time, and therefore a lot of garbage time stats.
It's either get the garbage time stats or curl into the fetal position until the time runs out...it's simply not stat "padding" on Colt's part. (Not saying you are THAT guy either.)
You can call it whatever you'd like, but the fact that nearly half (6/14) of his touchdown passes this season have come when trailing by at least 9 points is not a figure I hold in very high regard.
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