To say KISS hasn't wrote songs that stand the test of time is pretty off base. every band has wrote their share of songs that stand by the test of time or eventually lose its luster. But see I can admit when I think a song is beyond played out and rustic. But I can give you a list of KISS songs that indeed still sound fresh and relevant. but its doesn't matter there are some that feel that KISS was all flash and no substance. Pink Floyd and the Eagles are really upper echlon musicians. But KISS never set out to show the masses how technically proficent they were. their misson was simply..entertain and give fans there money's worth. the KISS detractors still can't figure why they have lasted since 1973 and as we speak are putting out a new recording and tour for 2012. whats Pink Floyd and the Eagles done over the last 20 years?
Thing of it is Storm, it's subjective. What you hear as standing the test of time, I hear as dated and predictable. That's actually perfectly fine, as long as we agree to disagree.
My roommate is a big KISS fan, I dont see what the big deal is with em. They really dont have a song that sticks out to me, other then Rock n Roll All Night...and that's cause I've heard it 5000000000times, not because theres somethin in the music that caught my attention.
I say the same thing about all the punk he listens to. There are very few of the bands he listens to that really jump out at me from a musical vantage point. If someone tells me "you have to listen to the meaning in the lyrics", it's already a lost cause as a musical composition. Same goes with "they set a trend" or whatever.
As far as a big stage show, give me George Clinton from that time period. Some of that Pfunk is off the hook, and their act is a big party. The big difference for me is there is some interesting music on those tracks.
This might be the "snob musician" in me, but I really could give a crap about stage presence. When I was playing, I practically leaned on my amp, and cranked out basslines. My musicianship drew praise, not my persona. Which is exactly how it should be.
The thread's original question was: "Why isn't KISS in the R&R HOF?"
If you read my posts again, you'll see that I never questioned their validity as a band... nor did I ever say they shouldn't be in The Hall. I've simply been giving potential reasons why they haven't been inducted. That's a very different thing.
Additionally, I never said they DIDN'T write enduring tunes... I did however talk about their overall body of work as a potential reason for exclusion.
Here's the bottom line from my earlier post:
Quote: Look- they're an easily digestible party band, and there's nothing wrong with that. But there ARE reasons that their road to the HoF hasn't been an easy one... and the artistic quality of their total body of work is one of the big ones.
See the subtle difference there?
Matter of fact (if once again you go back), you'll see that in not one but two posts, I predicted that someday they WILL be inducted.
Hope this clarifies my stance a little.
(BTW, after a hiatus (for each member to do solo work, studio work with other artists, and film scores), the surviving members of the band (Richard Wright died 2 years ago), were back in the studio Fall of 2011. In fact, they've never been out of work as highly respected artists, and did collaborations with each other over the 4-5 years that th band was idle.)
Quote: give me George Clinton from that time period. Some of that Pfunk is off the hook, and their act is a big party
boy, you said a mouthful with that line. That band was the shizz! Superb basslines, funnyazz lyrics,and a horn section tighter than Roseanne squeezing through a keyhole! Listen to them now, and they still bring the stank. There's a reason they are THE most sampled band for Hip Hop artists today.
Quote: This might be the "snob musician" in me, but I really could give a crap about stage presence. When I was playing, I practically leaned on my amp, and cranked out basslines. My musicianship drew praise, not my persona. Which is exactly how it should be.
Plant & play. Anything else gets in the way of a player's execution. When I share the stage with some virtuoso violinist or cellist who's swaying all over the place, I always think to myself: "I wonder how much better they'd sound if they just calmed their body down?"
Like I said before: it all depends on if one considers the band artists or entertainers. Now some bands can be both... but it's extremely rare to find high-energy showmen who still maintain an exceptional level of musicianship. Jaco Pastorius was one- he could entertain a 50K crowd at a stadium, yet still lay down some of the most inventive, sophisticated basslines imaginable. His stuff STILL sounds great today.... and he revolutionized electric bass playing for the next geberation of bassists. If he wasn't primarily a Jazzer, he'd have been a first-ballot shoe-in for The Hall:
RIP Jaco. He was absolutely amazing, and blew me away the first time I saw him. The problem is that I've never matured enough musically to truly enjoy his (or Stanley Clarke's) work.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Keep listening, Dawg. You'll get it, if you work for it. Trust me- it was a looooooong road to me finally "getting" Charlie Parker and the BeBop artists who inspired Jaco and Stanley. (two very good choices, by the way... you already have "deep ears" if you can appreciate ANYTHING they put out...)
With both those guys, the pyrotechnics were what hooked me, but the more subtle stuff didn't come on 'til much later.
If you're a softie for "sensitive ballad-type stuff, let me hip you to Jaco's signature tune: A Portrait of Tracy (dedicated to his first wife).
Now, mind you- this is an electric bass. 4 strings. One player. One take in the studio. ONE TAKE.
There's this technique we stringers use called "playing harmonics." There are natural places on each string that, if touched lightly with the left hand (I tell my students to touch the string as if you were wiping a loose eyelash from a baby's eyelid), will produce a completely different, much higher note. It's a waycool effect... and sounds like the chiming of a bell.
In this cut, Jaco uses a combination of regularly-played notes, interspersed with harmonics, to produce 4- and 5-note chords that were previously thought impossible to play on an electric bass. On top of that, he wove them seamlessly together, to produce a melody, rhythm, and chordal background that simply flowed.... all at the same time! Listen carefully, and in the middle section, you can hear two different rhythms being played simultaneously... some with the regular low bass tones, some with the harmonics, filling out the chors... while all the time, the flow of the piece never get interrupted.
I've listened to this piece over 500 times over the years- literally... and I'm still in awe to this day- 30+ years later. Sheer genius in action:
jfan: If you wanna know what Jaco was all about, listen to the tracks he laid down on his live tour in Japan. He toured with this big band called "Word Of Mouth," and played not only his most sophisticated stuff, but also rocked out on tunes like Fannie Mae and The Chicken. He loved crankin' down tunes that exploited his- as he said it- "Jam-based White-Trash Roots!" (hehehe)
I'm curious... how did you find Jaco? Most folks (sadly) don't even know who he is....
To answer your question: Back in the day, I used to play bass in a few heavy metal garage bands. I just copied what riffs I could of Geddy Lee, Geezer Butler and John Entwistle and got by with that. Most of what we played stayed in the same key and I could make what I'd learned work. One of our guitar players encouraged me to listen to Clarke and Jaco, and I found another dimension of music that intimidated me to no end. Although I enjoyed listening to them and being amazed, I never considered trying to expand my musical horizons to that level.
Due to school, career, family, etc. I haven't touched my bass in 20 years.
For an interesting side note, my bass is autographed by Entwistle.....we saw his solo act up at Harpo's in Detroit in the early to mid 80's. We met him out back as he left just prior to boarding his bus. He was actually quite social, not the quiet withdrawn guy you see on stage. He actually controlled the interaction, asking the small group about local issues and whatnot.....not giving us pointers or telling us wild stories lol.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
I don't know if he will ever get in or maybe's he's in..but Rick James is top shelf. Very accomplished bass player. "Ghetto Life" great great song. Too bad Rick died early,he was genius. Gotta be in the mood for funk and RNB.... always liked the Ohio Players too....their album covers were always thought provoking.
I saw them this past fall at The University of Toledo and it was an awesome experience to see them. The skills of all the musicians were second to none.
another guy who just brings the house down is Prince. His early stuff has alot of rock and roll influences..."For You" and "Prince" are just as good if not better than Purple Rain... "I Wanna Be Your Lover" and "Bambi" are tasty. he opened up for Rick James and the Stones.....the Rick James influence is especially evident in his tracks. the most talented musician of the last 50 years.
Now, see... this is what's so cool about music, KStorm...
We can have (detail-oriented) issues about one band, and totally agree on so many others.
Prince is a major musical talent. Kid (maybe I should say "Dude"... since he's only a few years younger than I) has an uncanny ability to absorb music from wildly divergent sources, assimiate them, and then spit them back out to us.... with his own unique 'spin' on them. That's a gift.... and he has it- in spades.
Lots of folks were put off by his outrageous stage personna and 'dirty' lyrics (which seem actually tame, by today's standards", but I (among many others in the music biz) heard what he was doing at the time.... and one thing's for sure: he's always been a "musician's musician." He was also always a wizard in the production booth. Stuff he did in the 90's still sounds 'cutting edge' today.
I have at least 6 of his discs in my collection... and have 4 of them loaded in my MP3 player right now. He's one of the most flexible, agile and adaptable artists I've ever known.
For my part, he's always been at his best when covering other artists' work. He has this uncanny knack for taking the essence of the original, and showing us what could have been done if the original artists/producers possessed his vision.
His version of the Stylistics' "Betcha By Golly Wow" on the "Emancipation" collection set is a perfect example.
Killer on multiple nstruments. 'Star Power' in his singing. A wizard in the mixing booth.
Prince has deepazz skills.
Most talented in the last 50 years? We might have to start a whole-nutha thread on that, but I'll give you this much: Prince is right up there with the best.
(Something just told me that if we ever got off of KISS, we'd find some common ground. Glad you gave us that opening, Dawg.)-
I think the guys like Clem,Jfan,Kendall in their discussion over the last few posts have answered the question on why performers who were not necessarily what we think of as "rock" performers are in the RRHOF. Prince,Bootsie Collins(my favorite bassist) Rick James,Michael Jackson, Grandmaster Flash,Public Enemy, just to name a few off the top of my head but there are many,many more are huge influences and are part of rock music.
I love my hard rock, I am trying to learn to play bass. I listen to all these guys to learn great bass lines and guitar riffs.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
Quote: I think the guys like Clem,Jfan,Kendall in their discussion over the last few posts have answered the question on why performers who were not necessarily what we think of as "rock" performers are in the RRHOF.
Exactly the reason I think it should be called the Music Hall of Fame. Take away the perception of it being exclusively one genre, which in today's musical society is hard to define and subjective to each person's opinion.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
Some awesome stuff. I get some strange looks when I say how much I love Prince. Top notch musician. Rick James had some solid tracks. He also subbed as a Temptation on occasion. I believe his uncle was a member for a while. Bootsy is awesome too. I particularly love P-funk. I was listening to Funkentelechy vs. The Placebo Syndrome on vinyl the other day.
Another group that I like alot is Sly and the Family Stone. Granted Sly has his problems now, but when they had it goin on, they were awesome.
King, it's all personal taste, but a bassist to take a look at for constructing lines is James Jamerson. He played on at least 75% (probably closer to 95%) of the Motown stuff in the 60's.
Crank the bass...that line is seriously sick. He plays each verse subtly different. When I sat back and really listened to it, I sat somewhat awestruck. Most of his lines were improvised...played on Marvin Gaye's "What's Goin On" album laying down because he was so drunk.
Jamerson and McCartney are the main reason my basses have flatwound strings, particularly really heavy ones. Just somethin about flats that I like. I use em on my Electric Guitars too.
There are plenty of good bassists to get a solid foundation from. I learned alot of Motown, Stax, and Beatles, before starting to mess around with more funky stuff. I tend to lean away from slapping and stuff, because I prefer the solid thump of the flats. My problem with that sound is, most groups that I could play in prefer the slap/pop stuff, whereas my approach is more subtle. I like the idea of having a "presence" vs flash.
I didn't bother mentioning him because I didn't think anyone else would know who he was. Unbelievable talent. Sweet touch, and a great sense of harmonic movement. In an interview, Jaco said that James was the single most profound influence on his own style... couldn't say enough good things about the guy.
OK... since we're already going down that road, Dawg- here's another bass-playin' name for ya: Francis 'Rocco' Prestia of Tower of Power. Ill-skill. He has that same 16th note fingerstyle that Jaco used, and can lock it in the pocket from the very first note of a song. Exquisite sense of touch and above all- time. Mr. Metronome. Check out this groove he lays down, yo:
What many (I dare say most people don't know is that the union between the drummer and bass player (and next, the keyboardist or rhythm guitarist) set the entire mood/feel/sense of time for the entire band. They provide the groove, the propulsion, the energy, timing and feel on any given piece. You can have a fantastic lead guitarist, stage-stealing 'front man,' smokinhot horn section and top-notch, sexier-than-hell backup singers... and still flop a performance if your drummer is weak, your bass player is half-steppin'.... or the two simply can't "lock it down tight." This is no different than playing Bach. In Rock, Jazz, Soul, Funk, et al, we call it a "rhythm section." In Bach's day it was called "continuo." Back then, continuo players were given lead sheets with the chords mnimally outlined, and were expected to know their roles, listen to each other, and improvise coherent, complimentary lines based on the outline. In your Stevie Wonder example, Jamerson was simply doing something that was expected of players ( -or should I say: "Playas"? ) 300 years ago. It's interesting to note that Bach lived from 1685 to 1750.... and in all those years, nothing much has really changed about the way we construct a piece of small ensemble music, or how we make it all work. Our music is built from the ground up... and setting the foundation is key to success.
Can you imagine the talk back then? "Hey, Johann.... you NEED to check this bass viol playa OUT, yo. He be rockin' madazz continuo over in them bands in Weisbaden. You NEED to get his azz over here to Leipsig, and put him in Your Krew, with a swiftness!"
I LOVE being a member of the "F-KleFF Posse." We make it all go, yo!
____________________________________
- and FL.... you start the petition to change the name of The Hall, and I'll be the first to sign it! I propose: "The Popular Music Hall Of Fame."
Quote: I tend to lean away from slapping and stuff, because I prefer the solid thump of the flats. My problem with that sound is, most groups that I could play in prefer the slap/pop stuff, whereas my approach is more subtle. I like the idea of having a "presence" vs flash.
There's a lot to be said about playing in the pocket as a bassist. I've always personally preferred to help provide the foundation as opposed to be the window dressing.
I almost hesitated to bring up Jamerson, but he is just such a huge influence on my approach that I couldn't resist.
I totally agree regarding the foundation. You can make any group work with a solid rhtythm section. That band I played in for a while, really didn't have a defined lead/rhythm guitarist as a 3 piece. It made the whole thing more challenging (in a good way), as it gave me much more liberty to outline harmonic content and find little places to insert fills that moved the songs. That group has a much better technical player than me now, but it doesn't have the same energy, because him and the drummer don't lock in, or play off of each other nearly as much.
Gotta love us F clef guys though. I always say it fits my personality. I always liked being the behind the scenes guy that made everything work. Bass and tuba (not sure about Cello/String bass) players can be stereotyped as laid back underachievers, but we all know we're one of the main cogs of the operation, we just like to let the other sections be the divas.
I was shocked to learn today that this man isn't in the rock and roll hall of fame! He's in the blues hall of fame but not the RNR Hall of Fame. Oh well, enjoy the tune.
On a side note, I'm all in favor of turning this thread into a continually running music appreciation thread.
Man ... the hall of fame (purposely not capitalized) has no right to call itself that if Stevie Ray Vaughn isn't in.
The man was simply one of the greatest of all time.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Agreed Ytown. I woulda thought he was in given how tragic his death was. Doesn't get much better for Texas Blues than SRV. I know I've taken quite a few licks from the guy.
I know. I'm quite familiar with sick riffs and hott lixx and galloping chops and all of that. The wording just lent itself to some humorous interpretations.
Clem can back me up, that's what they're called. I never even considered a different context there.
Yeah, yer right... but you didn't count on all the 'guttersnipes' that lurk around here....
Can't claim the high ground myself, either.... just 2 weeks ago, I messed with a poster who said "he'd let Hillis' "fathead" "hang" in his "mancave".... and I couldn't resist, either.
King, it's all personal taste, but a bassist to take a look at for constructing lines is James Jamerson. He played on at least 75% (probably closer to 95%) of the Motown stuff in the 60's...... Jamerson and McCartney are the main reason my basses have flatwound strings, particularly really heavy ones. Just somethin about flats that I like. I use em on my Electric Guitars too. .... I tend to lean away from slapping and stuff, because I prefer the solid thump of the flats. My problem with that sound is, most groups that I could play in prefer the slap/pop stuff, whereas my approach is more subtle. I like the idea of having a "presence" vs flash.
Man! I never knew how many bassists were floating around this forum! I knew Clem was part of the F-cleff crew at least... but dang.. And while I appreciate the crazy bass soloists that are out there, it's also nice to hear from other guys who appreciate just laying it down and sittin in the pocket. I've been playing bass in orchestras and bands since I was a kid.. and just like when I played offensive line in high school, I'm much happier being part of the foundation. Thankfully my current band is 75% blues. So all the other instruments get to take 200 solos each per gig, and I'm happy as a clam to keep a solid foundation underneath them.
And most of the Funk Brothers Motown stuff that wasn't James Jamerson, was Bob Babbitt. Really can't have a convo about Motown bassists without him! Another crazy bit about Jamerson was his playing style.. he only used his index finger to pluck the strings. I mean, to think about moving all over the board like he does with one finger.. that's pretty crazy. I've also been much more of a flatwounds guy myself. Since I started on upright when I was a kid, frets and roundwounds always threw me off when I started playing guitar. Thankfully mom and pop sprung for a fender fretless when I was in 7th grade and it's still my main axe to this day!
And to the old motown "thump" sound.. I learned a few months back that Jamerson's P Bass was one of the (now rarer) years that Fender put foam rubber against the strings in the metal bridge cover. So they were always muted by that foam! I've always been a little self conscious about some of the ringing of certain notes I'd get when playing certain songs/styles (which felt sloppy to me). Playing w/ a pick would allow me to palm-mute, but then the attack is obviously different, and I'm just not much of a picker. It's nearly impossible to do any right-handed muting when playing quick lines finger-style. Well that foam did the trick. I've found people nowadays that just stick a piece of foam rubber under the strings by the bridge.. but I don't want that sound on every song, and it'd be a pain to switch quickly between songs on stage. Bob Babbitt is now using a mute that can be switched on an off like this one I've found online. (only overseas so far) I REALLY wanna try one out: The Bass Mute
.....and back on topic.. I personally believe KISS SHOULD be in, along w/ Stevie Ray Vaughan. And speaking of SRV and solid rhythm sections, Double Trouble (Chris Layton and Tommy Shannon) are EXTREMELY under-appreciated in my book. There's a bassist and drummer who lay down a solid foundation and work well together.
OH... in closing, MY favorite Jaco groove: (The opening groove is great.. but then at about 57 seconds in?!?! He just doesn't quit on this one!)
A Bassoon master's student friend of mine asked me about funky/jazzy bass solos that he should try transcribing to play on his bassoon. I gave him this one to look at. I know he worked on it.. heard him practicing in his office down the hall now and then, but I don't know if he ever got it down. I'd love to hear this on bassoon, lol.
As a drummer of 25+ years I know all about setting up the rhythm and groove. I learned guitar several years ago as well, by no means a virtuoso, but I can play a good rhythm guitar and/or acoustic around the campfire so to speak.
A year ago, my church needed a new bass player, I was already their fill in drummer (after 6 years of being the primary) so they asked me if I'd be willing to try it knowing I have guitar knowledge as well. So I did, 3 weeks later I bought an inexpensive Yamaha bass and haven't looked back. I'm having a blast with it and adding a little bit each week to my playing as I learn, without getting to flashy to mess up the groove or feel of the songs.
Now I'm looking at gettinga 5-string, got a couple songs where I think a low-D would be primo.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
If you just need a low D, tune your bass down a whole step. Low string on a 5-string (in standard tuning) is a B. If its just for some songs a Hipshot might even work for you.
I haven't played since the 5 string bass was as rare as a fretless in the rock world..... and now almost everybody plays them. Just what is the benefit of adding the b string in R&R?
(This thread is making me want to dig out the bass and build up the calluses again!)
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
I thought about tuning down a step but that woul dust mess with my head over time. I'm just to the point where if they decide to play a song a step or half step higher or lower, I can do so without rewriting all my music sheets. And am just getting comfortable choosing other note positions for easier play rather than relying on the primary string/fret I initially learned.
For the first 4-5 months I don't think I ever played anything on the D or G strings, other than an occasional open D.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
The low B just adds some range in the low end, and a lot of modern popular rock really relies on the low frequency of the bass coupled with the punch of the kick drum to provide that chest-thumping rhythm to drive the song. Personally, I have little use for modern popular rock (my tastes are mostly a bit off the mainstream grid), and I have smallish hands, so I don't touch the things. I'm pretty into the traditional Fender style basses, and I like some of the 70s Gibsons as well. If I ever buy myself another one, it's gonna be a Rickenbacker or a full-blown custom job from Electrical Guitar Co.
I was shocked to learn today that this man isn't in the rock and roll hall of fame! He's in the blues hall of fame but not the RNR Hall of Fame. Oh well, enjoy the tune.
On a side note, I'm all in favor of turning this thread into a continually running music appreciation thread.
I like the guy but I don't like it when people put him on a higher pedistle than he should be. I have even heard lots of people say he quote "invented the blues." unquote. If that's so, what purpose did musicians like Robert Johnson, Dave Bartholomew, Louis Jordan, T-Bone Walker, Muddy Waters, Albert King, and Willie Dixon just to name a few have in the birth of the blues and for that matter, rock and roll music in general? It was a stupid comment to make, just sayin'.
"My opinions and feelings are mine and shall not be influenced by anyone....especially liberals."
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And while I appreciate the crazy bass soloists that are out there, it's also nice to hear from other guys who appreciate just laying it down and sittin in the pocket. I've been playing bass in orchestras and bands since I was a kid.. and just like when I played offensive line in high school, I'm much happier being part of the foundation. Thankfully my current band is 75% blues. So all the other instruments get to take 200 solos each per gig, and I'm happy as a clam to keep a solid foundation underneath them. 
If that's so, what purpose did musicians like Robert Johnson, Dave Bartholomew, Louis Jordan, T-Bone Walker, Muddy Waters, Albert King, and Willie Dixon just to name a few have in the birth of the blues and for that matter, rock and roll music in general? It was a stupid comment to make, just sayin'.