DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Is It Too Soon to Give Up on McCoy?..PART TWO...

Is it too soon to give up on McCoy...maybe not after watching last nights Int in the end zone.

That pass may be the defining moment in McCoy's career in that it exposed him in a way that cannot be excused.

I did not get the game as TW does not provide the NFL channel, but I have watched the highlights and I'm troubled by the Int in the endzone.

I believe McCoy said he was unable to step into the throw because the pocket collapsed around him...and he is correct..that is what happened.

BUT, McCoy still threw the pass rather than throwing it away or taking the sack, which was an error in his judgement. McCoy chose to throw the pass up for some unknown reason and the worst thing that could have happened... happend.

If McCoy is unable to make that pass because he can't step into it and he still threw the pass...we now have two issues to consider, physical and mental.

Those running this franchise have to consider whether the areas McCoy is showing weakness in, can they be corrected?

I've been avoiding this discussion, but why wait any longer . . . ?

I'm trying to balance the bad in him and the bad around him. Still feels really hard to judge, but I keep deciding he, like all the others, isn't going to be the guy to take us there. . .

However, if I can't get Luck or Barkley in this draft, I stick w/ McCoy and start filling holes w/ all our draft picks . . .

he threw the pass too late. nothing more, nothing less. it was one bad pass after he got his bell rung. it was frustrating as all get out, no doubt. but, McCoy had a decent game as a whole (and if MoMass caught the wide-open TD pass on the 2nd drive then the entire game would have been viewed differently, no?)

i think it's funny that you say he's shown enough after 2 of his worst games of the year, then he has an okay game and you say we should discard him.

he's no slam dunk, we need to bring in someone via the draft or FA to challenge him, but he's shown some things and looked pretty good last night throwing the ball to the mid-routes.

I am perfectly fine with McCoy being the starter next year after we shore up WR/RT in the 1st round of the draft. I am not exactly confident that he can ever get us to a SB, but I am more confident that if we draft a high QB will just just be setting whoever that is up for failure/injury with the cast of clowns we currently have on offense.

The thing I hate about the McCoy haters is that they disregard things like that pass to MoMass. Dalton made two of those last week (one to Green and one to Gresham), the difference being he is throwing to real receivers. MoMass even got away with PI on that and still couldn't catch the ball. The impact of that on the game was much bigger than the Colt haters make it out to be (for confidence, playing with a lead, more pressure on the Steelers, etc). That is what all the drops do, they completely change the face of the game/playcalling/future throws/etc. And that is another reason why putting a Barkley back there isn't going to work.

He had a mediocre game. Some bad decisions not just on the interception with 3 minutes to go but also the pick to Polamalu and the intentional grounding as well. More throws too low, right and left of the receivers. I also don't think I have ever seen a QB who is so oblivious as to where the first down marker is and the endzone line is. Stretch the ball out for crying out loud.

Watch that INT to gay again. A real NFL receiver (even a Julio Jones) either makes that catch by adjusting better or at least prevents the INT. He threw to one on one coverage into the endzone with 3 minutes to go down 4. It was the right throw to make there, but MoMass misjudged the ball and overran the spot, while Gay played it correctly. Has anyone ever noticed that our receivers are the absolute worst in the NFL at winning 1 on 1 jump balls? Oh, and once again his own linemen were being pushed into Colt up the middle so he couldn't step into the throw (but again, I think Colt actually hit his spot there).

Holy spin control, dude.... That INT is all Massa's fault? I gotta throw the BS flag there. That ball was out too late. The big strengths we were sold on Colt were his accuracy and his IQ for decision making. After a 50% passing night and a couple turnovers, ala another subpar game, we'd be setting ourself up for failure next year with him at QB. Even just slightly below average QB play this year boosts the team up three wins with this schedule. I know his supporting cast isn't remotely ideal, but it shouldn't be that hard to judge bad QB play. I'm re-hearing the "It's just too soon!" about Brady Quinn from ending days of the dreaded deadbate.

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Is it too soon to give up on McCoy...maybe not after watching last nights Int in the end zone.

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Not trying to make an excuse, but something my wife noticed and I agree with her.. (that makes me the smartest man on the planet LOL)

She said somethings wrong with Colts Eyes... he looked dazed and confused..

When they showed another close up, I had to agree.

That was just after he got his bell rung by Harrison.. Why in the hell did they put him back in?

And I'll add another thing. Colt deserves a ton of criticism. But I'm tired of Shurmur escaping criticism when you have guys like Warner come and out say he has no idea what our offense is supposed to be doing. Why do comments like this get swept under the rug? I'm not saying fire Shurmur, but this O is absolutely horrendous.

When are the tough questions going to be asked about this O?

I have lurked on here since I was in Law-school. Probably then since 2006. I don't remember if I have ever posted. I am not anyone's fan-boy but maybe the boredom at work coupled with caffeine have finally compelled me to post.

At some point we need continuity. I would argue that started a few years ago. We have seen Colt play on a bad team. We know what he can do, may be able to do, can't and struggles with. I do not want to see this season placed on his shoulders, anymore than I want to waste a draft pick on a QB when we could be drafting bigger prizes, and eventually pieces that let us know what we have. I don't know how any of the college crop would do in the NFL on this Browns team. If you truly think better, is the production level worth who we'd pass on to get?

They are playing a game that inherently is chaotic. But, there are some things universal. Like if you have a strong running game, a solid line, you can put a lot of guys under Center and they will succeed. The question is if we put these pieces together can McCoy? I think it is difficult to judge a single highlight. I think McCoy is in a really tough spot. I agree the browns need to be careful at how they keep him confident, mentally. The kid is used to being a winner. It can't be easy to get hammered from the right (and this year too often left) every play, only to see a decent pass dropped.

IMHO assume this kid is our QB. Until he 1. Has a running game to keep teams honest 2. Has some kind of hurdle the defense needs to jump over before getting to him on the right side. 3. Someone can catch the ball, either from their own abilities or because of filling other holes. (we have 3 players among the top 15 in drops) and he can't get it done. Or until we have flashes of those things that indicate he cannot.

If you can show me that even with that McCoy won't have it, ok maybe this is a topic. But do you think any QB in the league could "succeed" here? I am not talking stats, but W's (as McCoy's stats aren't actually that bad in passing).

We've tried to take a QB and build around him. That has failed time and time again, why not actually try and build a team as well as an offensive identity?

Peace
-Keyzer

Maybe it is just me, but I gotta give MoMass 50% blame for that INT in the end zone. He turned around and took 3 steps facing the ball and didn't adjust. The defender turned around and took 1 step, adjusted and intercepted. Don't get me wrong, he threw the ball way too late - but MoMass has to adjust and turn into a defender on that play.

I don't think that McCoy should even have been in for the rest of that series - when they showed him when he came back in, he seemed dazed or something. Should have kept Seneca in the game.

Has anyone else noticed how many times we have two receivers in almost the same spot on pass plays? On that INT "to" Moore, Watson was like 3 yards away (bringing defenders with him as well). Isn't the object to use your receivers to spread the the D a little bit. No QB is gonna succeed when the OC is calling plays that crowd the field with defenders.

I think last night just further illustrated why he'll stick in the NFL but will never be a starting QB for any extended stretch of his career.

He literally just cannot throw downfield. When he does, he throws late, off-balance, in to coverage, you name it. That and Colt makes some AWFUL decisions in pressure situations / close games.

He threw what? 2 INT's last night and probably should have ended up with 3 or 4 more. The inexcusable INT in the end zone, that cost the browns 3 points, in a 4 point game was just terrible. Thrown late, off his back foot, to a WR who was covered by a DB looking in the backfield. Ugh.

The guy is tough as nails, no doubt but having will and not a lot of skill isn't going to take you very far. Toughness doesn't win games when you can't consistently make NFL throws.

Last night was his 21st start? What exactly has he improved on? Regardless of what new offense he may or may not be running? He just doesn't have it in my opinion.

Could he use a few more weapons? Sure but he's not a guy you build a franchise or offense around, so why would you NOT take a QB in the 1st round? If there's a QB out there the front office really likes?

I'm in favor of keeping Colt around but I would draft a rookie this season. Let them compete in camp and if the light goes on for Colt, bring the rook along slowly. There's no downside to taking a QB where the Browns are going to pick. They have a second #1 and a high #2 to target some playmakers.

The McCoy's are whining their way out of Cleveland

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/12/colt_mccoys_father_says_mccoy.html

That should be the nail in the Coffin...maybe he can get back to the Longhorns and get coddled as the game's best QB, lol

Too bad what he said is true...McCoy should have never been back out on the field after that hit. What were the coaching and medical staffs thinking?

Dear Colt,

Tell your family to stay the hell out of the media.

Thanks.





We just need to spend BOTH 1st rounders and maybe a 2nd on QB's in April... then, MAYBE, we might be able to finally solve this damned problem.

Colt McCoy's father says McCoy doesn't remember anything after hit, never should've gone back in Steelers game

Friday, December 09, 2011
By Mary Kay Cabot
The Plain Dealer

BEREA -- Browns quarterback Colt McCoy's father, Brad, said today that Colt doesn't remember anything after taking a vicious helmet to helmet hit from Steelers linebacker James Harrison and that he never should've gone back in the game.

"I talked to Colt this morning and he said, 'dad, I don't know what happened, but I know I lost the game. I know I let the team down. What happened?''

Brad McCoy, a lifelong high school football coach who coached Colt all through junior high and high school, said McCoy doesn't remember throwing the interception in the end zone three plays after he jogged back onto the field after missing two plays following the hit. The pick essentially cost the Browns the game and they lost 14-3.

"He never should've gone back in the game,'' said Brad. "He was basically out (cold) after the hit. You could tell by the ridigity of his body as he was laying there. There were a lot of easy symptoms that should've told them he had a concussion. He was nauseated and he didn't know who he was. From what I could see, they didn't test him for a concussion on the sidelines. They looked at his (left) hand.''

McCoy also might have suffered a broken left hand on the hit, which resulted in a 15-yard roughing the passer call against Harrison.

Brad McCoy said he's also upset that coach Pat Shurmur said during his post-game press conference that Colt was fine to go back in the game when that wasn't the case. McCoy has suffered multiple concussions, including one in high school and one or two with the Browns.

"After the game, the (public relations staff) made sure Colt's interview was brief and he couldn't face the lights in his press conference,'' said Brad. "The TV lights and the Stadium lights were killing him. Why would you say he was fine? That makes it even worse.''

Brad McCoy doesn't understand why the team wouldn't automatically neuro-test Colt after the crushing blow. It's not yet been confirmed that the Browns didn't neuro-test him after the hit. A call has been placed to the Browns seeking comment.

"Josh Cribbs suffered a groin injury earlier in the game and he was out for the rest of the game,'' said Brad McCoy. "Colt takes a severe hit like that and he's back in the game a play later? If he took another blow to the head, we could've been talking about his career here.''

Brad said when he first saw the hit, he thought Colt was done for the night. "And I certainly didn't think he'd be out only a play. It would've taken my high school trainer longer than that to determine if he was okay after a hit like that.''

He said Browns tight end Evan Moore had to drive Colt home after the team arrived in Berea early Friday morning. Colt drove himself to the facility this morning, but is believed to have been sent home without participating in team activities after being examined by the medical staff.

Browns coach Pat Shurmur will meet with the media at about 1:50 today. The Browns have followed the NFL's strict concussion protocol this season, including Thursday night when Ben Watson and Owen Marecic suffered concussions and were shut down for the night.

Whining? Coddled? Really?

Did he steal your girlfriend or something?

Did you see the hit he took? How many people have said that the team should not have sent him back out there...at least not so quickly.

If I were his father I'd be po'ed too.

How you continue to question his toughness is beyond me.

I saw his "toughness" when he ran towards the GL on the 1st drive

Look, just because he's a little kitty cat among Lions playing the game and being a "tough" for a kitty cat, doesn't make him "tougher" than your AVG Lion...that's my point....you act as if other QBs around the league don't do stuff he does...in fact I see it and even more...he's no puss, but he isn't any tougher than your AVG QB....I might even classify it as sligthly below AVG watching some plays in crucial situation...and if we factor in "mental toughness" it gets worse, since he completely loses it when he throws that 1st INT in a game...he turns into The Dumpster then

McCoy is not long-term answer for Browns; more on Week 14

By Michael Lombardi NFL Network
Front Office View
Published: Dec. 9, 2011 at 11:42 a.m.
Liked: 0 | Comments: 16



I love watching Browns-Steelers games, especially when they are played on a cold December day or night. How can you not like a rivalry like that? Both Pittsburgh and Cleveland have incredible fans who fanatically support their team. For the Steelers fans, they have been rewarded with many Super Bowl wins. However Browns fans have endured many frustrating losses and based on the past two years, there seems to be more losses to come.

Since football returned to Cleveland in 1999, the Browns have only been in the playoffs once (2002) and have only two winning seasons. The Browns have only been in the top 10 in points scored one time (eighth overall in 2007); their next best season was 19th in 2002. Browns fans have witnessed some horrible offensive football in the past 13 seasons.

Mike Holmgren came to Cleveland to change all that in a new role as president of the team. In his first year on the job, instead of cleaning house and starting anew, he allowed coach Eric Mangini to stay in charge of the team, but stripped his final say on all football matters. Many in the NFL thought that was a strange move, but Holmgren is genuinely a nice man and thought it would be unfair to fire Mangini after just one year. The following season Holmgren made the decision to fire Mangini because he felt the Browns underachieved with a 5-11 record. Some said one year was wasted in the rebuilding process; others said Holmgren was just being patient.

Holmgren was trained under Bill Walsh in San Francisco (I remember the day I had to pick up Mike at the airport for his interview with Coach Walsh). When Holmgren was named Browns president, I thought he'd follow Walsh's example and find his quarterback of the future right away. It also was what Ron Wolf, then the GM of the Packers, did for Holmgren when he was coach. Wolf wasted little time in trading for Brett Favre to give Holmgren the quarterback he needed to run the offense. It was what Holmgren did when he was named coach/GM of Seattle, trading for Matt Hasselback. But Holmgren came into Cleveland without solving that problem, unless drafting Colt McCoy in the third round or signing Jake Delhomme or Seneca Wallace was the answer.

Year two of the Holmgren plan was to place faith in McCoy that he could run the West Coast offense effectively under the direction of new coach Pat Shurmur. Their approach in the draft was to not take a quarterback, but rather to move down, collect more picks and upgrade the talent level of the team. All those moves are great in theory, but only if the quarterback position is solid. If not, it is hard to actually see the upgrades being made.

Their approach in free agency was to add solid players, but not break the bank or find any skill players to support McCoy. The Browns wanted to keep rebuilding their defense as they made the transition from a three-man line to a four-man front. Against the Steelers on Thursday, Cleveland's offense looked similar to the 2010 version. Add rookie Greg Little at wide receiver and Jason Pinkston at guard and this team has the same look. Both teams lacked explosive players to create big plays, and both teams have concerns at quarterback.

So much of their planning was based on McCoy being the man. Holmgren and his staff passed over many quarterbacks believing that McCoy could be the long-term solution. They might say that was not the case, but all their personnel moves indicate otherwise. Some believe McCoy still could be the long-term answer, but he needs more skill around him. I think the Browns need to be realistic in what they have with McCoy.

McCoy has never looked like the long-term answer at quarterback from my vantage point of studying tape at NFL Films. He lacks power in his arm, willingness to make throws downs the field and ability to drive the ball into a tight pocket. He has the look of a backup quarterback who will play well in the right system for short stints, but have a hard time being the "man."

Browns owner Randy Lerner trusted Holmgren to fix his organization. Lerner loves the Browns and desperately wants to make the fans happy, and he felt bringing in a big name like Holmgren would satisfy the fans and restore the Browns to their glory days. But after two seasons, it is hard to find the progress. Holmgren must prove he can be a great executive without coaching the team. This has been hard for many ex-coaches to pull off, including Bill Walsh. Playing in the hardest division in football is not going to make this turnaround any easier. Lerner has paid everyone in the organization a ton of money for results and has been one of the most giving owners in sports, but so far his money has not produced wins.

Now, the Browns will be entering year three of the Holmgren era without a legitimate starter at quarterback, which means they either have to trade for one (who?) or draft one. And year three is a risky time to address this problem because if they don't make the right choices, there may not be a year four. There is a sense of urgency in Cleveland. I hope Holmgren feels it.
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The ball never broke the plane of the goal line. That was pretty obvious from the replays I saw. It was the right call. (Unfortunately) The Browns got their fair share of corrected calls last night.

As far as Warner goes ..... who knows? He really is about the only national sports figure to say anything about the design of the Browns offense "not making sense". I do know that other people, like Bradshaw, Judge, Prisco, and many others say that we need to change QBs, because we won't win with the one we have. Who's right and who's wrong?

What are your thoughts on Kurt Warner's statement?

The ball absolutely broke the plane...the question is when...McCoy's knee hit the ground at a point just before the ball broke the plane...but he dove - not slid - and fell over his own player.

He was not "downed" by a Steeler player until after the ball and his arm hit the ground with the ball over the plane of the goalline.

The evidence was NOT irrefutable...but was overturned anyway.

I blame that last INT on the coaching staff... no way McCoy's head was clear on that play... he should have NEVER been back out there

with that said there were several throws that I just shook my head because I couldn't figure out who made a mistake.. McCoy or the WRs.

I really like Colt... dude was a winner in college and has shown leadership in the pros... I'm not ready to give up on him yet but man we need to get some playmakers around him.

With that said I won't be upset if we draft a big time QB this year.... but we MUST pick up some offensive help. We went defense heavy the last two years and it's paying off but now we need to help the offense.

General comment:

I also have to wonder about McCoy, and his situation.

I didn't not watch most of the game. I had it on, but it was way off the radio broadcast, and it was driving me nuts, so I watched mostly replays. Anyway ...... I was in the game day thread ...... and no one brought up any fuzziness on McCoy's part during the game. No one mentioned that they saw any "glassiness", or other symptoms of anything. I remember re-watching the Harrison hit and being surprised when McCoy came bounding back on to the field. The radio announcers said that it was his finger, and we moved on. They never mentioned McCoy looking foggy or anything else.

It just seems like a lot of people are making retroactive judgements on what they "saw".

Right. Maybe the doctors should have asked, "Did you get just get your head taken off by Harrison?" When the answer was, "I don't remember." You don't let him go back in the game.

Should not have been in the game no matter who its on! With so much concussion concern in ALL sports you dont screw around with a guys head/future mental capacity!

I wouldnt come here if I were Luck, Barkley or the second coming of YA Tittle!!!