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I watched the replay of the hit last night. For those that say the Browns bench didnt see it because it was on the other side of the field.. thats less than honest. It was right in front of the Browns bench. No one was in the way. Go watch it again.
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I watched the replay of the hit last night. For those that say the Browns bench didnt see it because it was on the other side of the field.. thats less than honest. It was right in front of the Browns bench. No one was in the way. Go watch it again.
I don't think I read anyone say that the players didn't see it. What I read is that people are questioning Holmgren about people not seeing it and thats not exactly what he said..
I'm sure people saw the hit, But I'm not sure anyone said anything to Shurmur or the medical staff attending to colt. And I'm not at all sure the medical team saw it until too late.
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NICE INTERVIEW IN DOUBLESPEAK.
Did you REALLY have to quote the entire damned transcript just to follow it up with four freakin' words?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I dunno...it's kind of expected, isn't it? As President of the Cleveland Browns, you will deal with press. Win a few and see what happens.
It's like that in any city that is passionate about its sports... he should try losing in Philly or New York or Chicago.. it's no better.
Yes, I just figured he knew that....guess not. 
I don't know. You are dealing with a guy who didn't experience his first losing season until the 9th year of his coaching career and he has only ever had 3 losing seasons.. His last year being by far his worst with 4 wins, that's the year that Wallace got most of his playing time... that's also the year that Charlie Frye started a game for them, which is further proof that they were in bad shape.
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Did you REALLY have to quote the entire damned transcript just to follow it up with four freakin' words?
Every time he makes a post I ask myself, "Did you REALLY have to . . .!"
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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I believe Holmgren made it clear, to the Browns local media and fans, ..."You're either with us or you're not."
I don't need Mike to tell me the deal. He's telling us to blindly keep following and that's fine, but he shouldn't get all dicky when someone gets frustrated. Understand the history, Mike...we've been at this a LOT longer than you have. And, just because we get upset doesn't mean we aren't "with" the team. Seriously, does this guy not understand fandom?
I agree. I've been "with" the Browns a hell of a lot longer than Mike Holmgren, or anyone else in the FO, for that matter, has been.
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Don't think for a moment that comment wasn't DIRECTLY to the media.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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AkJoe,
I would not say all of it was double talk because Holmgren's role as President is too address what actually happened but also protect his staff. If we really look at what happened, Colt did not show any symptoms until after the game. Possibly, the medical staff did not see how bad the hit was because they were working with other players.
Do I think Holmgren lied a bit when he said no one on the sidelines like the medical staff saw the hit..yes..kinda but someone in the coaches booth should have said something to Shurmur. And if you listen to the interview, that is when Grossi questioned Holmgren pretty good about that. It was a stretch to say that.
After that, there was a few questions that were stupid, and Holmgren was right to snap back at those reporters. The part I think that Holmgren over-stepped was when he was suggesting that the fans and media are "with us or against us"..He was treading on this ice at that point but the gutless cleveland media did not press him at that point.
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DwgMichelle, I think your comment summed up what I cannot BELIEVE the Cleveland Media did not eat his lunch on. Like DCDAWGFAN stated above, try being in NY, CHI or Philly with multiple years of losing, bad or at minimum questionable drafting and some basic coaching mistakes!! They would have eaten Holmgren alive for that statement alone. But he acts like because he had to answer a few questions in one interview, the media or fans should not question him and to trust him??? Please, he would not have gotten away with that if it was me! 
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Don't think for a moment that comment wasn't DIRECTLY to the media.
Exactly. A lot of posters here on DT complain often about certain writers' negativity to the Browns. It seems like a double standard to point that out and then slam Holmgren for doing the same.
He could have used a better choice of words but it was an hour long press conference so IMO it's better to take in the whole message rather than nitpick over a few words.
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I thought that was the dumbest, most arrogant thing he said. Number one, media don't need tickets, they get press passes. Number two, after 12 years of this crud - including 2+ years on his watch, with no light at the end of the tunnel - the fans (whom the media represent, ostensibly) have every right to question his methods. No one has "jumped off the bus", they are just sick of watching the same garbage every Sunday.
dave...first, Holmgren was talking about the media, not the fans...
I was referring to some of our fans and media who don't seem to understand what Holmgren started, the rebuilding of this franchise, which was not going to be easy and it was not going to happen quickly.
Those of you wanting the process completed already are just setting yourselves up for disappointment only because of your own unrealistic expectations. I wonder how many of you predicted the Browns to win "more than" 4 or 5 games this season?
I know we had some who thought the Browns would be close to making the playoffs this season...talk about unrealistic expectations given all the circumstances the Browns faced this season..new coaches, new playbooks, lockout and so on...
Holmgren pointed out, if the Browns could have snapped the ball better and caught a few more passes, this team could be 7-6 at this point...and he is 100% correct to point out how close the Browns were to winning a couple more games, except for poor execution by players at critical times in some games.
I do understand that some people just have a tendency to be negative. Whether born that way or a learned trait, some always seeing the glass as half-empty rather than half-full. Holmgren, like most successful leaders who have confidence in their ability, is overwhelmingly, naturally positive.
Holmgren can't change the negative attitudes of those fans who are down in the dumps over the results of the 2011 season...and Holmgren is not responsible for all the failures of the past. But next season, the Browns will take another step toward becoming a successful franchise...a step closer toward making the playoffs...
...you can choose to believe in the rebuilding process Holmgren started two years ago or you can wallow in your sorrow, looking for someone to blame...it's up to you.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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And almost every team can point to a play here or there that has cost/won them a game.
That's the nature of the NFL. Good teams make those plays. Bad teams ..... don't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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who said that??
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...e=0&fpart=3
Mourg among others..
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General reply
Honestly, i was expecting them to drag out the resuscitation equipment for Holmgren before the presser was over.
As for Shurmur not seeing the hit. It was on the opposite side of the field with the OL in between them. I don't know if they were blocking the view but it is plausible. Even if he did see it, its his job to coach, its the trainers job to say if a guy is capable of playing.
Anyone else remember when being knocked out was treated with smelling salts and being told to get up and walk it off and get back in there.
For the Shumur haters. Shurmur will be here as long as Holmgren is. IF you don't like it go root for Buffalo lol. Couldnt resist.
At the end of the day, i am very glad Holmgren is the man in charge. He was ready to do battle with the media today and I like it. There is no rush moves made by this FO, even snapping at the media almost seemed to be well planned.
I repeat.. I watched it again last night with several people. if you divide the field length wise the hit took place at the hash mark nearest the Browns bench.during the replay you clearly see the Browns players and staff looking right at the play.
Enough people saw it.
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And like most situations you learn from the mistakes of the past.
If I'm standing on the sideline and see the hit, see the med staff go out to Colt, etc. I presume they are aware of or he has mentioned concussion like symptoms. It is not MY job to run over and inform them of my unprofessional opinion. It's thier job to handle that stuff and I assume they have it handled, why stick my nose in there.
Now that the events have unfolded and everything is being reveiwed, the actions of others might be different. Players that witness a similar event in the future may make a point of watching for changes in the player themselves, and report it to the staff, etc.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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And almost every team can point to a play here or there that has cost/won them a game.
That's the nature of the NFL. Good teams make those plays. Bad teams ..... don't.
I think this is a huge misconception...
Good teams don't allow themselves to get caught in positions where these plays can win or lose a ballgame.
The Packers aren't undefeated because they've made last-second FGs, they're undefeated because they beat teams by 20+ points.
Almost every NFL team wins roughly 50% of the games decided by < 7 points (a normal distribution around 50%), how many times you blow a team out, and how often you get blown out, is what decides how good you are.
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Almost every NFL team wins roughly 50% of the games decided by < 7 points (a normal distribution around 50%), how many times you blow a team out, and how often you get blown out, is what decides how good you are.
I disagree completely. Of those 8 games decided by less than 7, some teams regularly win 6 of them.. those are your playoff teams, some teams win 2 of them, those are you teams that talk about how close they are.. of course there are a few teams at the top, like the Packers and a few teams at the bottom, like the Colts this year that fall outside the averages but in the middle there are a host of teams that are in and a host of teams that are out, or the playoffs every year because of a few plays.
It takes 2 things to make more of those plays than not.. one is simple, playmakers, the second is harder but it's confidence. Right now we have neither.
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I agree with you. It's also why teams usually see they have a good QB 1 year ahead of when they start winning. Look at Rodgers first year starting or Cam this season. Put up good numbers and move the ball, but also still making crucial mistakes down the stretch and not 'winning' those tight ballgames.
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"No one on the sideline saw the hit." <--------- ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I don't believe Holmgren on this one. I absolutely think he is lying. He is just NOT believable.
watching the press conference by jauron and he seems to not back the reality Big Mike was selling( nobody saw it, the hit )yet here is jauron saying he thought is was pretty hard and was worried " It looked like it could have been a serious deal".
So which reality is it. 0n 12/9 Shurmer says all protocol was followed regarding concussion yet 5 days later Mik says no one saw it and McCoy was not even checked.
Go sell that crap somewhere else.
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And like most situations you learn from the mistakes of the past.
If I'm standing on the sideline and see the hit, see the med staff go out to Colt, etc. I presume they are aware of or he has mentioned concussion like symptoms. It is not MY job to run over and inform them of my unprofessional opinion. It's thier job to handle that stuff and I assume they have it handled, why stick my nose in there.
Now that the events have unfolded and everything is being reveiwed, the actions of others might be different. Players that witness a similar event in the future may make a point of watching for changes in the player themselves, and report it to the staff, etc.
That's crazy talk dude. I mean don't you think the medical staff, when they get a chance to watch some of the actual game action, goes over to coaches and or players and tells them how to line up or what angle they should take, and to watch for this or that. According to some they should, heck we might be undefeated if they did that. 
BTW, I am agreeing with you, its not the business of non-medical personnel on the sideline to tell the medical staff what to diagnose, unless asked what happened of course.
With any process or procedure you sometimes don't have redundant steps in place, sometimes you do, we (and I assume most other NFL teams) didn't. You sometimes don't learn you need them until something happens, then you change it, and we are doing that. Unfortunately it happened on the national stage, but it doesn't mean anyone was wrong, or conspiring against something or someone, to suggest otherwise is trying to find another point for an agenda, good or bad.
Now if you will all excuse me I think I will go to the local hospital and tell the doctors how to do their job, after the fact of course, cause hindsight will make me feel all important and smart as if I knew the real words and events of what happened when I was nowhere near the action. 
*Can't reach sarcasm switch...
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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J/C I was wondering what had Holmgren so fired up yesterday afternoon until I saw the front page of the PD yesterday. Just above the masthead on the front page it reads: " 'Big Show' Holmgren a no-show as Shurmer faces critics" That line was courtesy of our very own Bud Shaw (who would be unemployed if not for the PD's lowest of standards for sports journalism). You can just see the red line rising up Holmgren's face (like in the cartoons) as he read that! 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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hmmm, except he didn't say noone saw it. he said the trainers didn't see it and the coaches/players didn't tell them about the hit.
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I don't think his point was that NOBODY on the sidelines saw the hit, I think his point was that NOBODY on the medical staff saw the hit... And as somebody pointed out earlier, once the medical staff went out and helped McCoy off the field and took him to the bench, those who saw the hit assumed, and rightly so, that the medical staff would handle it. It's not Dick Jauron's job or Pat Shurmur's job or Mike Holmgren's job to run over and tell the medical staff how to do THEIR job... I think that this was an unusual sequence of events that happened that caused a poor outcome, not because anybody necessarily "failed" to do their job, it's a freak thing and should be left at that.. Next time I guess if a guy takes a big hit we will have 25 people hovering over the medical staff going, "Did you check him for a concussion? I saw it and it looked bad. It looked like somebody rolled up on his ankle too, better check that.. oh and he might have fallen on the football and had the air knocked out of him... " Yea, that's what we need. 
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i think people are overlooking the fact that if they had given him the scat test on the sideline after the hit, he probably would have passed it!
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NICE INTERVIEW IN DOUBLESPEAK.
Did you REALLY have to quote the entire damned transcript just to follow it up with four freakin' words?
Yes he did,, otherwise, how would we know what he's talking about......wait? we still don't
#GMSTRONG
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I guess if these people witness an auto accident they probably all jump in the ambulance with the injured victim so they can ride to the hospital and tell the EMT's what to look for.
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Almost every NFL team wins roughly 50% of the games decided by < 7 points (a normal distribution around 50%), how many times you blow a team out, and how often you get blown out, is what decides how good you are.
I disagree completely. Of those 8 games decided by less than 7, some teams regularly win 6 of them.. those are your playoff teams, some teams win 2 of them, those are you teams that talk about how close they are.. of course there are a few teams at the top, like the Packers and a few teams at the bottom, like the Colts this year that fall outside the averages but in the middle there are a host of teams that are in and a host of teams that are out, or the playoffs every year because of a few plays.
Sorry, but the statistics completely disagree with you here:
For instance, how good a team is has nothing to do with whether they win in OT or not:
http://community.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/do-good-teams-win-close-games-part-2.html
You are confusing the effect "teams that win most of their close games go to the playoffs" with "the teams that win most of their close games are actually better teams", the causal relationship is backwards.
If close games are entirely random, you will always expect some teams to win 5/6 and some to go 1/7 - possibly the best way to test is to see if they replicate that effect in the next season or whether they regress to the mean, I don't have the time to do that study right now though.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 12/15/11 04:48 PM.
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I don't think his point was that NOBODY on the sidelines saw the hit, I think his point was that NOBODY on the medical staff saw the hit...
And as somebody pointed out earlier, once the medical staff went out and helped McCoy off the field and took him to the bench, those who saw the hit assumed, and rightly so, that the medical staff would handle it.
It's not Dick Jauron's job or Pat Shurmur's job or Mike Holmgren's job to run over and tell the medical staff how to do THEIR job...
I think that this was an unusual sequence of events that happened that caused a poor outcome, not because anybody necessarily "failed" to do their job, it's a freak thing and should be left at that.. Next time I guess if a guy takes a big hit we will have 25 people hovering over the medical staff going, "Did you check him for a concussion? I saw it and it looked bad. It looked like somebody rolled up on his ankle too, better check that.. oh and he might have fallen on the football and had the air knocked out of him... " Yea, that's what we need.
again, how do you state all protocols were followed when asked about the concussion. then later backtrack the staff did not check for it. 
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i think people are overlooking the fact that if they had given him the scat test on the sideline after the hit, he probably would have passed it!
Those darn pesky facts! Shurmur turned me into a newt. Burn him! 
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Almost every NFL team wins roughly 50% of the games decided by < 7 points (a normal distribution around 50%), how many times you blow a team out, and how often you get blown out, is what decides how good you are.
I disagree completely. Of those 8 games decided by less than 7, some teams regularly win 6 of them.. those are your playoff teams, some teams win 2 of them, those are you teams that talk about how close they are.. of course there are a few teams at the top, like the Packers and a few teams at the bottom, like the Colts this year that fall outside the averages but in the middle there are a host of teams that are in and a host of teams that are out, or the playoffs every year because of a few plays.
Sorry, but the statistics completely disagree with you here:
For instance, how good a team is has nothing to do with whether they win in OT or not:
http://community.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/do-good-teams-win-close-games-part-2.html
You are confusing the effect "teams that win most of their close games go to the playoffs" with "the teams that win most of their close games are actually better teams", the causal relationship is backwards.
If close games are entirely random, you will always expect some teams to win 5/6 and some to go 1/7 - possibly the best way to test is to see if they replicate that effect in the next season or whether they regress to the mean, I don't have the time to do that study right now though.
I get what you are saying and I would love to find an article that breaks it down for close games because we all remember teams that seem to win a bunch of them (tebow this year, brady in the 3 superbowl runs, etc)
this article you posted though is seriously flawed. it does not take into account the winner of the OT coin flip in any manner despite statistical evidence that the winner of that flip wins 2/3 of the time.
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Do I think Holmgren lied a bit when he said no one on the sidelines like the medical staff saw the hit..yes..kinda but someone in the coaches booth should have said something to Shurmur. And if you listen to the interview, that is when Grossi questioned Holmgren pretty good about that. It was a stretch to say that.
I'm not arguing with you, but why would someone in the coaches booth call down to Shurmur to alert the doctors, who didn't see the hit, if they didn't know the doctors didn't see the hit.
How could anyone, other than the doctors, know that the doctors didn't see the hit? I mean this is in real time. Sure, after the fact, now that we know they didn't see it we wonder why some didn't say something to them. But at the time it was going on who knows who saw what? I know what I saw. I don't know what anyone else saw. I'm in the booth. Should I have assumed the doctors didn't know what happened?
I mean they ran out onto the field to attend to Colt. I see that. I'm in the booth. What can I tell them that they don't already know? Well, now I know what. But I didn't then when it was happening.
To much microscope on everything and everybody to the point it doesn't even make sense.
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that wouldn't change the study though - because the outcome of the coin flip is (I hope) independent of which team is better.
So you should still see the effect regardless of any externalities.
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that wouldn't change the study though - because the outcome of the coin flip is (I hope) independent of which team is better.
So you should still see the effect regardless of any externalities.
but, with such a small sample size, it can have a big effect on the results because there is no guarantee that one side didn't happen to receive more flips. it just needs to be accounted for in some way or the entire point is meaningless (if that just means checking and seeing it was close to 50/50 split, then that is fine).
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that wouldn't change the study though - because the outcome of the coin flip is (I hope) independent of which team is better.
So you should still see the effect regardless of any externalities.
but, with such a small sample size, it can have a big effect on the results because there is no guarantee that one side didn't happen to receive more flips. it just needs to be accounted for in some way or the entire point is meaningless (if that just means checking and seeing it was close to 50/50 split, then that is fine).
True - it confounds things in the limit of small sample size -- good point.
~Lyuokdea
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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Sorry, but the statistics completely disagree with you here:
For instance, how good a team is has nothing to do with whether they win in OT or not:
http://community.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/do-good-teams-win-close-games-part-2.html
You are confusing the effect "teams that win most of their close games go to the playoffs" with "the teams that win most of their close games are actually better teams", the causal relationship is backwards.
If close games are entirely random, you will always expect some teams to win 5/6 and some to go 1/7 - possibly the best way to test is to see if they replicate that effect in the next season or whether they regress to the mean, I don't have the time to do that study right now though.
Overtime is such a limited sample and has so many variables.. good teams win close games and bad teams do not in regulation. Heck if the Browns could get the Packers to OT they could run the kickoff back 70 yards and kick a FG, that doesn't mean the Browns are better than the Packers.
Even the <7 argument would need dissected. If the Patriots have a 13 point lead with 2 minutes to go they could give up a TD in the final seconds.. they win by less than 7 but it's not like the game was in doubt... Good teams, that are consistently good, blow out the bad teams and win more close games than they lose.. it's that simple... the other thing I will add is that they often win games even when playing subpar ball. Much like the Steelers did last Thursday, they didn't play well, we gave it a good effort, but they still found a way to win... and we found a way to lose..
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
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Big Mike says he wasn't because he showed no symptoms
Umm, Holmgren said he was checked after the game because he SHOWED symptoms at that time.
They're much closer to the game than we are and we could see it on TV that he was suffering from concussion symptoms. I could tell that he was 'glassy eyed' with the look of 'Did anyone get the license plate number of that Mack truck?' And that was from my TV set. I can't believe that the medical staff couldn't see it or that Shurmur couldn't tell it.
And, after a hit like that, where McCoy was laid out on the ground after the play, the medical staff should have been tending to him immediately and administering the tests. They weren't and they didn't. If the people responsible for tending to injured players actually have medical credentials, those credentials should be revoked. It really is that simple.
And Holmgren said it so it must be true.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,250
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,250 |
speaking of the Browns and Packers...
we are the only team in the NFL to beat them this year.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,845
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,845 |
ddubia,
Its not about arguing but the people in the booth, from the NFL to both offensive and defensive coaches watch and saw the play. Maybe one of the offensive coaches like a QB coach or a one of the special assistant offense coaches possibly said to Shurmur, "hey, is Colt ok to play??".... but to act like no- one really saw the play(* and the even the NFL guy didn't pipe up which Holmgren mentioned as a system failure *) is a stretch!!
In a previous message, I stated that maybe Colt did not show real signs until later to which it seems like that is what happened. I'll even give Holmgren the fact that the medical team may not have seen it, nor the replays.. But to go past that is a silly stretch!
Also, that holmgren often used phrase of "trust me", please he gotta be kidding with that one also!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
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but to act like no- one really saw the play... is a stretch!!
I see what you're saying there. My problem is I was too focused on the part about no one telling anyone what they saw at the time.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
speaking of the Browns and Packers...
we are the only team in the NFL to beat them this year.
Continuing our streak of beating the defending super bowl champs! Giants, Steelers, Saints, Packers...
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns President Mike
Holmgren to meet media
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