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I wiil say I don't care what the value chart says, we won't be able to swap picks and hand over a 4th rounder to make the move.
There will be teams wanting to swap picks and future picks....we are going to have to give up both 1st rounders.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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If we make it to the 3rd spot and Luck would only cost us both firsts, I'm all for that one.
It would also be a huge win for Indy who wouldn't have to deal with the idea of having to cut Manning or spend the first you desperately need on a bench rider and secure a second first in the process.
If we can only make it to #4 and we have to toss in our 4th round pick too, still a good deal. IMO
It's dipping into next years picks that I'm opposed to.
#GMSTRONG
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I agree about not dipping into next years draft to get Luck, but I really think the point is moot. The Colts are going to take Luck. Manning will be 36 next year, coming off neck surgery for an injury that may or may not be recurring. Anyone who has had spinal column / neck / nerve injuries knows how nasty they are. We also don't know if there are any structural weaknesses from Manning's injury that may risk his quality of life if he takes another shot. Best case for the Colts is Manning can play 2-3 more years at a high level, with Luck on the sidelines soaking it all in. Worst case, Luck is their starting QB next September. The truth is it probably ends up somewhere in between those extremes.
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Gotta root hard for New Orleans tonight for 2 reasons...
1) Atlanta's pick even though it's dictated by playoff finish...
2) Ties NO with Frisco so Frisco has to play hard versus the Rams Sunday...
If we want a chance at Luck we need Rams losing and Indy winning...Gives us the 4 spot with a Minny W...And a chance to talk to the Rams...The 5 spot with a Minny L...
Alternatively...Indy losing and Minny winning gives us the 3 spot and an interesting scenario...
Luck will go #1...
Kalil or Blackmon #2...
We sit with RGIII to mortgage off...To Snyder???...Need Skins to lose...
Go down to 7...
2013 1st Rounder
2012 2nd rounder
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
If we want a chance at Luck we need Rams losing and Indy winning...Gives us the 4 spot with a Minny W...And a chance to talk to the Rams...The 5 spot with a Minny L...
Where do you get this. According to an ESPN article, we can't pick lower than 4 as long as we lose to the Steelers
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/38888/draftwatch-browns-move-up-again
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 12/26/11 10:24 AM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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It will take both firsts and our 4th to equal the 3000 pts.
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The Colts only have 6.5 mil in cap space and they owe 28 mil to Manning in March. If they hope to sign some of their FA's in 2012, not to mention the incoming rookies, I'm not sure they can afford to pay Luck to sit on the bench. All three of their starting WR's are UFA's.
WR - Pierre Garcon - UFA
WR - Anthony Gonzalez - UFA
WR - Reggie Wayne - UFA
OT - Ryan Diem - UFA
DL - Robert Mathis - UFA
I don't think if they keep Manning they go after Luck. If they cut Manning, going for Luck is a sure thing.
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I was just going by what I heard their owner (Irsay) say on ESPN radio, that the Colts have the means under the cap to both keep Manning and pay Luck. I don't know what the effect would be re: Wayne, Garcon, etc.
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Hopefully they have to let a couple guys go in FA. The Colts play a 4-3 so I imagine he would fit in on our DL.
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It should be pretty obvious to everyone by the time free agency is over with which was the pendulum is swinging for the Colts. Until then it's all just wild and rampant speculation from fans and talking heads and lies and damn lies from team management.
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Route for Minny to Win...And Indy...
We get 4 and deal with the Rams...
Jax and Minny Win and we get 3 and deal with Indy...
We still need JAX to win, and not Indy
The whole "root for Indy to win" thing, is based on the (dumb) assumption that Indy will take Luck (when their GM basically came out and said they wouldn't), and that St. Louis would not take Luck (which I think is even more possible with a new regime and with Bradford's struggles)
~Lyuokdea
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Irsay also said that he paid Manning 26M to sit this year. If thats true, I can't see them cutting him now. Good teams seem to find a way to keep their core intact without mortgaging the future, whether its through restructuring existing contracts or cutting off dead wood. For instance, I could see them letting Wayne, Mathis, and maybe a couple other aging vets go in order to keep Manning, Garcon and to draft Luck.
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Indy needs the #1 pick for us to have a chance at Luck, IMO.
Indy will have a choice to make. Take Luck and be a sure contender for the next 10 years, or go all-in with Peyton Manning and try to win a Super Bowl or two NOW.
IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
If they go that route, they'll be looking to unload that pick to get as much help as they can RIGHT NOW.
We are the only team in need of a Quarterback that can offer two first round picks THIS YEAR.
That's our best chance of landing Luck.
I've officially predicted that we end up with Luck by giving up both 1's and our 2 this year.
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Other than the neck issue, Manning really has never been injured. It is conceivable that he plays another 4 or 5 years and at a high level. Its not like you are taking an Aaron Rogers at 17 to develop for the future. If they want to groom Manning's successor, take a 2nd or 3rd round quarterback.
You would be taking a day 1 NFL ready Quarterback just to sit and watch Peyton play quarterback. Meanwhile you just lost most of your receiving options via free agency but damn you have a great backup quarterback. I think there is very little chance the Colts would draft luck and not trade him.
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IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
Cleveland, yes. Indy, no.
Cleveland is undeniably a football town. There is no other place that is MORE a football town than Cleveland. There are others on par but none supercedes.
Indianapolis is more of a basketball town and they take great pride in their Hoosiers. If Indy had had the Cleveland experience since 1998 do you doubt one iota that there would be rampant blackouts, just like Cincinatti? Actually it'd probably be worse than Cinci.
If I'm the GM or Owner of the Colts I HAVE TO think about the long term viability of the franchise. It's imperative to have a good product on the field or the people just won't come like they show up in Cleveland.
If they do accept a trade offer for Luck they are really playing with fire.
I was really hoping the Rams would land at #1. We have a much better proposition landing Luck there. Bradford can be a Top 5 QB in this league and I'd love to have him here. I think St. Louis loves him too though and would love a draft bonanza to surround him with. I certainly would do that if I were them!
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JK,
I really wanted us to win against Baltimore would have only moved us down a couple spots probably to about 7 and all this trade the future and the farm for an unproven QB that everyone thinks will come here with so many holes and light the place up will be lining up on the 480 bridge come game 4 with Shurmur running the show.
So now once again Im rooting for us to beat the steelers (althuogh I highly doubt that happens). We draft in the top 10 and should be able to find a good CB/WR/OL combo help with our first 3 picks and call it a day without hearing how the Browns gave up way to much to move up into the #1 slot.
Hecterts a smart cookie and I wouldnt be suprised at all to see him trade down from the 4th slot if that is were we land. If we trade up it will be Holgram making the call to do so and I dont trust Holgram to make any picks.
All IMHO.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
JK,
I really wanted us to win against Baltimore would have only moved us down a couple spots probably to about 7 and all this trade the future and the farm for an unproven QB that everyone thinks will come here with so many holes and light the place up will be lining up on the 480 bridge come game 4 with Shurmur running the show.
So now once again Im rooting for us to beat the steelers (althuogh I highly doubt that happens). We draft in the top 10 and should be able to find a good CB/WR/OL combo help with our first 3 picks and call it a day without hearing how the Browns gave up way to much to move up into the #1 slot.
Hecterts a smart cookie and I wouldnt be suprised at all to see him trade down from the 4th slot if that is were we land. If we trade up it will be Holgram making the call to do so and I dont trust Holgram to make any picks.
All IMHO.
I have absolutely no idea whom "Hecterts" or "Holgram" are...but maybe those guys can replace Heckert and Holmgren and finally bring us a winner.
Go figure the guy who doesn't even know who is in our FO is a part of the anti-trade up for Luck camp 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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5 yard penalty for spelling-smack. 1st and 15.
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lol yeah was tryping pretty fast probably not the only error the spelling police will find.  The point is that I dont trust Holmgren to make our picks. They took those duties away from him in seattle for a reason. The same reason we took them away from Mangini. I do trust Heckert with those picks and hope he doesnt get over ruled in this draft. If Luck falls to us I have no problem with us taking him but giving up 3 to 5 picks for an unproven QB is not what I would want to see. NE stockpiles picks every year and just reloads we need to get to that point and now is not the time to be giving away picks to move up 2 or 3 spots. Again IMHO.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
NE stockpiles picks every year and just reloads
New England can do that, because they don't need the picks right now. Why can they get by without the draft picks? Because they can get by with mediocre talent, because they have an elite Quarterback in Tom Brady. For us to get to the point New England is at, we need the elite QB. Andrew Luck is that.
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I think there is very little chance the Colts would draft luck and not trade him.
I'm of the opinion that the Colts wouldn't be drafting Luck but will be trading back. I think that a team like Washington and an owner like Snyder would be willing to give up the farm to draft Luck because of the hype surrounding him. Anyone thinking that the Colts won't be receiving offers if they have the #1 pick are just nuts and that they won't be smart enough to work the calls against one another?
If they overplay their hand and end up making the selection, they could simply say that Luck was their man all along but that they were willing to field offers but that none met the price that they were willing to sell at.
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Quote:
Quote:
NE stockpiles picks every year and just reloads
New England can do that, because they don't need the picks right now. Why can they get by without the draft picks? Because they can get by with mediocre talent, because they have an elite Quarterback in Tom Brady. For us to get to the point New England is at, we need the elite QB. Andrew Luck is that.
Exactly.
They plug in serviceable receivers, plug in RB from all depths of the draft, and don't play defense worth a damn ...... yet they are 12-3.
They got Wes Welker, who was a 400-700 yard receiver in Miami ..... and turned him into an 1100 yard guy overnight. They pulled Ron Gronkowski out of thin air and turned him into a 1200 yards, 15 TD monster. They bring in Deion Branch and plug him in, and he produces. They have a bunch of running backs whose names have most people going "Who???"
Their OL is not a collection of 1st round picks.I believe that they have 1 forst roudner, 2 seconds, and a bunch of 4th/5th/later/UDFA/signed from nowhere types.
They plug in a guy like Randy Moss and Brady has a great year. They trade away a guy like Moss and Brady has a great year. They sign an undersized KR/PR from Miami named Wes Welker and he becomes a weapon.
The Patriots defense is last in the league in total defense. They are ranked 9 spots below us in scoring defense. They are bottom 3rd of the league in running the ball. They have one premiere aspect to their team, and that is that they have a superstar QB who can lead them to wins. Take Tom Brady off that team and they are probably fighting to get to ,500, with a bunch of players no one has ever heard of.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
I think there is very little chance the Colts would draft luck and not trade him.
I'm of the opinion that the Colts wouldn't be drafting Luck but will be trading back. I think that a team like Washington and an owner like Snyder would be willing to give up the farm to draft Luck because of the hype surrounding him. Anyone thinking that the Colts won't be receiving offers if they have the #1 pick are just nuts and that they won't be smart enough to work the calls against one another?
If they overplay their hand and end up making the selection, they could simply say that Luck was their man all along but that they were willing to field offers but that none met the price that they were willing to sell at.
If they trade the Luck pick they will have massive protests from their fans and season ticket holders.
With Luck they can sell Manning as the present and Luck as the near future. Without him they are selling Manning ....... maybe ........
They would be nuts to trade the pick. I hope they do, and I hope that we can trade up to get it ...... but I'm not holding my breath that it will ever happen. Indy knows the value of a superstar QB and they aren't going to pass one up when he falls into their lap.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm of the opinion that the Colts wouldn't be drafting Luck
Irsay has come right out and said that if there was a QB they liked that they would draft him. Now what he didnt say was that Luck was that QB however.
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Irsay also said the Colts would take a quarterback, Manning’s successor, if the right one is available in April’s draft.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-colts-manning
This is the new NFL. IMO the rookie wage scale is going to set theoretical position values and old rules of drafting right out the window.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Though NE has had a lot of draft picks in recent memory, some of them aren't panning out. They move guys in and out all the time. They have some core players that are running the team. Some guy named Brady seems to got it going on.
But I understand and like the point. They build through the draft, and are very well run in that regard. We can stockpile all the picks we want, but if they all turn out to be David Veikune and the rest of the 2009 draft, then it's all irrelevant. We got one player, and it was the first pick. All those picks we got for him turned into pretty much nothing. We have an oft dinged, inconsistent WR still on the roster, that's about it.
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Quote:
JK,
I really wanted us to win against Baltimore would have only moved us down a couple spots probably to about 7 and all this trade the future and the farm for an unproven QB that everyone thinks will come here with so many holes and light the place up will be lining up on the 480 bridge come game 4 with Shurmur running the show.
So now once again Im rooting for us to beat the steelers (althuogh I highly doubt that happens). We draft in the top 10 and should be able to find a good CB/WR/OL combo help with our first 3 picks and call it a day without hearing how the Browns gave up way to much to move up into the #1 slot.
Hecterts a smart cookie and I wouldnt be suprised at all to see him trade down from the 4th slot if that is were we land. If we trade up it will be Holgram making the call to do so and I dont trust Holgram to make any picks.
All IMHO.
I think I don't mind the losing at this point since it really won't matter with improving this team's view of themselves and there will be some of them gone from the team next year.
If we're drafting either 3 or 4, I don't mind it so much because it would give us a good opportunity to trade back and gain additional picks. I don't think I would trade back too far, but I would consider a trade back, especially if Blackmon is gone. I'd consider it even if Blackmon was there.
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Quote:
Quote:
IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
Cleveland, yes. Indy, no.
Cleveland is undeniably a football town. There is no other place that is MORE a football town than Cleveland. There are others on par but none supercedes.
Indianapolis is more of a basketball town and they take great pride in their Hoosiers. If Indy had had the Cleveland experience since 1998 do you doubt one iota that there would be rampant blackouts, just like Cincinatti? Actually it'd probably be worse than Cinci.
If I'm the GM or Owner of the Colts I HAVE TO think about the long term viability of the franchise. It's imperative to have a good product on the field or the people just won't come like they show up in Cleveland.
If they do accept a trade offer for Luck they are really playing with fire.
I was really hoping the Rams would land at #1. We have a much better proposition landing Luck there. Bradford can be a Top 5 QB in this league and I'd love to have him here. I think St. Louis loves him too though and would love a draft bonanza to surround him with. I certainly would do that if I were them!
I live in Indiana, and have been to a few games in Indianapolis, and I can say you are wrong. Folks here LOVE their Colts.
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If they trade the Luck pick they will have massive protests from their fans and season ticket holders.
Because an unproven Andrew Luck > a 13-year veteran QB with years of service to give and who'll be a first ballot HOF inductee?
Okay. I'm with you. You've convinced me.
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With Luck they can sell Manning as the present and Luck as the near future. Without him they are selling Manning ....... maybe ........
They don't have to sell Manning. Manning is a proven commodity. The fans could see how the team had done without him as their field general. They'll have a chance at the playoffs with Manning under center and they could very well be drafting in the Top 10 (which we, as Browns fans, know all to well) for years to come.
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They would be nuts to trade the pick. I hope they do, and I hope that we can trade up to get it
Because we're a rookie QB away from making the playoffs? 
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...but I'm not holding my breath that it will ever happen. Indy knows the value of a superstar QB and they aren't going to pass one up when he falls into their lap.
And if they pass on Luck and trade the pick away it'll be because they think he isn't going to be a NFL QB? I don't buy that or a moment. They may simply feel that they can take a different QB, maybe one like Nick Foles, in the draft and develop them and all the while making selections that will have the experience to make sure that he succeeds when the time comes to hand him the reins.
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Irsay has come right out and said that if there was a QB they liked that they would draft him. Now what he didnt say was that Luck was that QB however.
Not sure we can really believe anything that any team rep ever says about the draft.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Not sure we can really believe anything that any team rep ever says about the draft.
Irsay isn't just a team rep. He's the one signing all of the paychecks for that organization.
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Oh, ok then. Whatever he says before the draft must be the truth, then. 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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You have a point. But he has every reason to. From Favre to Rogers, and before that from Montana to Young. If you want to keep your franchise at the top its the way to go.
That aside, Ill take his word over gut feelings of posters on a Browns forum.
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If I am Luck I'm praying I don't go to the Colts. With the new CBA rookies don't get that huge payday right off the bat ( at least in comparison to before). If he is dafted to sit behind Manning and Manning returns to form he could sit the bench for all of his rookie contract,then where's his pay day? If the Colts where to win a superbowl in the next year or two with Manning half lucks career could be over before he ever sees the field in Indianapolis.
No. I think there is a very real possibility that Luck does not play for Indy unless Manning is gone first.And I don't see the Colts getting rid of Manning until he is ready to go.
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Well living in Indy and with the new staduim and the playoffs extpected every year I can see why. Let them go a decade with only 1 playoff birth and mostly 4 win seasons and then see how the people support the team?
Cinci is a win away from a playoff birth and begging to sell out a game.
The Browns are going to win 4 games (which is 1 game less then the last 2 years) and probably will sell out next season.
Big difference.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Andrew Luck is a more polished version of Aaron Rodgers when he was coming out of college. Which I think hurts him, because the reason Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL today, yet was not drafted #1 overall, was because he was so unpolished coming out. When his throwing motion got fixed, he gained a ton of arm strength. Can't do that with Luck. However Andrew can still obviously be a top 5 QB.
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Quote:
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IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
Cleveland, yes. Indy, no.
Cleveland is undeniably a football town. There is no other place that is MORE a football town than Cleveland. There are others on par but none supercedes.
Indianapolis is more of a basketball town and they take great pride in their Hoosiers. If Indy had had the Cleveland experience since 1998 do you doubt one iota that there would be rampant blackouts, just like Cincinatti? Actually it'd probably be worse than Cinci.
If I'm the GM or Owner of the Colts I HAVE TO think about the long term viability of the franchise. It's imperative to have a good product on the field or the people just won't come like they show up in Cleveland.
If they do accept a trade offer for Luck they are really playing with fire.
I was really hoping the Rams would land at #1. We have a much better proposition landing Luck there. Bradford can be a Top 5 QB in this league and I'd love to have him here. I think St. Louis loves him too though and would love a draft bonanza to surround him with. I certainly would do that if I were them!
I live in Indiana, and have been to a few games in Indianapolis, and I can say you are wrong. Folks here LOVE their Colts.
I've been to a few Colts game myself when I worked for a startup backed by Simon Property Group. We had Xmas parties and other get togethers and we often went to St. Elmo's and Colts games.
IMO you're overestimating the fan base.
If Indy had the same experience Cleveland has had the last two decades I believe there'd be a stark difference in the enthusiasm around the franchise.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
I have family in Indianapolis. From what I recall.. Pre-Manning the colts weren't especially popular. It was Reggie Miller and the Pacers that were Indianapolis' favorite team. Much more Colt love ever since they got Manning and became a watchable team.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
This is gonna be interesting to say the least...We'll know more bout' 4:15 Sunday...
We'll also know FOR SURE which way Irsay's gonna go in about 9 weeks...One link says the $28M Bonus is due 3/3/12...Another says the end of February...If it's PAID there's no way Indy would take Luck...The pick's open for negotiations...
There is ZERO chance that a QB the caliber of Luck is holding a clipboard for even one year...
Go Browns!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,830
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,830 |
I keep hearing the Feb. date.
Manning is a big topic here in Tennessee, and the word going around is the Colt's are not going to pay the bonus.
At least that is the talk I hear on the local talk radio show...and those guys seem to check things pretty well before running with a story.
I agree, that will be a big indicator, though with the new wage system, it wouldn't preclude the Colts from going qb if they get the first pick.
While it would be a big chunk off the cap tied up at the position, I don't think it would be a killer....they are going to pay someone that money.
I know you want some immediate returns, but if you can wait a few years for production, it would be at QB.
Also, if manning comes back strong, the Colts have the option of trading him, and I would assume it would at least be a decent pick where as it stands now, they get zip.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
And in other news... Atlanta losing last night sets them up to have a meaningless game with TB Sunday... Ramifications??? They are locked into the 6 seed which means they will go to New Orleans or Frisco based on which gets the 3 spot... They are a ONE & DONE playoff team... Our Atlanta pick will be between 21-24... 
Go Browns!!!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV
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