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Well ..... Gannon went both ways on McCoy in a couple of days. lol He was for McCoy before he was against him or something.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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He must be a Politician! lol
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I know lines of thinking get skewed a bit at draft time, but I simply don't see any way that Bradford could be moved out of St. Louis.
They've probably already sunk around $20 million into the guy. I don't know how much more they would have to fork over to send him away (I think those numbers are floating around the board somewhere), but it makes little sense to dump the guy.
I think around draft season people think of football as more of a Madden franchise than the business that it is.
I wasn't saying that. I too doubt the Rams could dump Bradford and take a 30 mil cap hit all at once.
I don't think it impossible for the Rams to draft Luck if given the opportunity. With the new wage scale they could probably work that in to the budget.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I agree, Homie wanted Bradford.
It was simply a matter of the price being unrealistic or the Rams weren't interested in moving out of the pick.
Which, if you go back and look, was my point. I never said that Holmgren didn't want Bradford.. never. I just said that he didn't want to turn over his entire draft to get him.. and that he'd be an idiot to do so.. Therefore, he's not an Idiot in my view.
On a side note, how would that have worked out if Bradford ended up in Cleveland? It's a cautionary tale. Spend a ton of money and lots of current and future picks to get a guy like Bradford (or maybe Luck this year) and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.. if it does, great,, but you got no way to add players of value later because you gave away your picks unless you go with FA's.
If it doesn't work out, you spent a ton of dough, got nothing for it and you still can't get guys because you spent all your picks to get him..
Call me crazy, but I'm not sure the risk is really worth taking..
If you have the first pick naturally or you are close enought that you don't have to give up the house, fine.. go for it. But if you gotta give up everything to get one piece when you have so many holes,,,, YOU GOTTA BE NUTS...
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If you have the first pick naturally or you are close enought that you don't have to give up the house, fine.. go for it. But if you gotta give up everything to get one piece when you have so many holes,,,, YOU GOTTA BE NUTS...
Let's be a little more melodramatic while we're at it... 
We r gonna be at either 3-4-5 in this draft...It WILL NOT take our ENTIRE draft plus our #1 in 2013 to get Luck...IF that's the demand I tell Indy or the Rams to stick it...And sit tight or possibly make a move for a RGIII if we like him...Bradford also comes into play here...
This is the starting point without doubt...
BOTH 2012 1st Rounders
2013 1st Rounder
Sprinkle in any combination of one two or three mid picks and u get Luck...
If we can do this for those 3 First Rounders and a 3rd and 4th...U JUMP ON IT...Even if the 3rd and 4th are THIS year...
U still have your 2nd rounder which is very high...
A 4th because we have TWO...
A 5th/6th/7th and any Comp Picks...
And ALL of your 2013 draft minus the 1st rounder...
And u land the FACE of this Franchise for the next 12+ years at the MOST IMPORTANT position on any football team...
I GUARANTEE u that Heck & Homie will be all over this...We WILL try...
Go Browns!!!
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Not sure if Anyone caught the Heath Evans interview today on 92.3 The fan. Good stuff! The interview is on their site.
Heath Evans
Loyal...good find, thanks for posting...
Heath Evans is but one ex football player with opinions but he also has a platform, the NFL network, so his opinions could have a larger audience and more support.
On the subject of McCoy, I have to agree with Evans, there are much bigger and far too many more needs on this team than QB. Building the support cast should be the priority, imo.
On the subject of Holmgren...I think it's healthy for an ex-player to openly question his ex-headcoach. But the worst thing Evans could say about Holmgren was he tries to force players into his system and Holmgren coached with "inconsistency".
Here is the article that goes with the Evans audio...
NFL Network Analyst Heath Evans Slams Holmgren, Hillis, Browns Offense
December 29, 2011
CLEVELAND (92.3 The Fan) – Count NFL Network analyst and former NFL fullback Heath Evans as someone who doesn’t appear to be a big fan of Mike Holmgren and his current regime with the Browns.
Evans, who played for the Seahawks, Dolphins, Saints and Patriots, came on with the “Bull and Fox” on 92.3 The Fan on Wednesday, and opened some eyes wondering if Holmgren is truly the answer for the Browns.
“I’m not sure if Mike Holmgren’s the guy to actually turn this thing around in Cleveland,” Evans said. “There is so much more of a bigger need than replacing Colt McCoy in Cleveland.”
Count Evans as a fan of McCoy, but at the same time he feels that an offense that leads the team in drops is a huge reason why the QB hasn’t gotten the credit he’s deserved this season.
“If you take away half the drops, Colt McCoy is right in the middle of half the quarterbacks right now,” Evans said.
The analyst was asked more about Holmgren, who he played under while with the Seahawks. While saying that there was a lot of dysfunction while with Seattle, Evans said on “Bull and Fox” that Holmgren simply hasn’t adopted to the style of today’s NFL.
“Mike Holmgren tries to squeeze everybody into that system, I’ve got news for ya, the west coast system is not a world beater anymore,” Evans said. “In the 80′s early 90′s it caught everybody off guard the crossing routes all the mix and matches. Now if you’ve got good DC’s and disciplined players on the defensive side of the football it’s not beating anybody.”
While Evans doesn’t appear to be a big fan of Holmgren, one coach he does admire is Bill Belichick, who still is looking for another Super Bowl ring with the Pats. Evans says that unlike Holmgren, Belichick has adopted to today’s NFL style.
“We were a game plan team in New England, they still are,” Evans said. “That’s why a majority of the time they come out on the winning side of the football.”
Evans says a big issue with Holmgren is how he forces the issue with players. He says that on the offensive side of the ball, the Browns are way to simple, and it goes back to what Holmgren has done with the roster.
“I think Mike just has a problem for seeing what each individual player can add to a team, instead of trying to stuff everybody into a system,” Evans said. “I watch this offensive football team (the Browns) and I can call most of the plays.”
Then there’s the saga with running back Peyton Hillis. The bruiser ran himself into injuries that cost him six games this year, and Evans says from the people he’s spoken to about it, Hillis may not have been as banged up as he claimed to be.
“I just hear a lot of mixed emotion from players coming out of there about his position,” Evans said. “You talk about guys questioning if he could have played, so many different things that have stirred up my thought process, hamstrings are funny things. This guys gets right back on the field and has big games, hamstrings don’t act that way.”
Evans says while he has not actual proof that Hillis was tanking it, there’s a number of reasons to believe that the running back was only looking out for his best interest when thinking about the future.
“Can I comment with facts? No, but there’s a lot coming out of that locker room that has raised my ear and made me say what is truly going on there,” Evans said.
The future of the Browns is for sure up in the air. The team is heading towards a likely 12 loss season, and with it, Evans said Wednesday that things need to change for the team to finally take a step to the next level.
“There’s some dysfunction there if the Cleveland Browns want to be successful have to be corrected, especially in that division,” Evans said
web page
With Browns fans angry over this disappointing season, I have no doubt Holmgren will be attacked and blamed by some in the media and some fans, due to the Heath Evans interview.
But Holmgren is not going anywhere and the process of upgrading the talent on the team, primarily through the draft, will continue. Holmgren has already commented on the subject of adding a offensive coordinator in the off season so it's not like Holmgren is not aware of some of the issues Evans brings up concerning Shurmur's offense.
Should Holmgren take Evans criticism seriously...maybe...at the least, Holmgren needs to listen to what Evans had to say...listening to the criticism from those qualified to comment, can be a healthy thing.
But, it should be remembered that Heath Evans was a backup for Holmgren in Seattle for 4 yrs...does he have an axe to grind?...I don't know, but he does have opinions that should be given a degree of weight...how much weight...some.
Last edited by mac; 12/29/11 09:37 AM.
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But, it should be remembered that Heath Evans was a backup for Holmgren in Seattle for 4 yrs...does he have an axe to grind?
One can't help but think that. If Evans sat through 4 years of Holmgren telling him he wasn't good enough, there just might be a little anymosity here.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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But, it should be remembered that Heath Evans was a backup for Holmgren in Seattle for 4 yrs...does he have an axe to grind?
One can't help but think that. If Evans sat through 4 years of Holmgren telling him he wasn't good enough, there just might be a little anymosity here.
jfan...keep in mind, Evans himself admitted he was not good enough to push the #1 FB out of his starting job. That comment is in the audio interview, so it's not like Holmgren was holding Evans back or something.
Evans has high praise for the HCs who found a way to use him in some fashion. Evans was a blocking fullback and special teams player his entire NFL career, but he did have the opportunity to play for some good coaches.
Is it human nature for a football player to find fault with those who did not allow your career to blossom?...maybe.
GM strong...
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If you have the first pick naturally or you are close enought that you don't have to give up the house, fine.. go for it. But if you gotta give up everything to get one piece when you have so many holes,,,, YOU GOTTA BE NUTS...
Let's be a little more melodramatic while we're at it...
We r gonna be at either 3-4-5 in this draft...It WILL NOT take our ENTIRE draft plus our #1 in 2013 to get Luck...IF that's the demand I tell Indy or the Rams to stick it...And sit tight or possibly make a move for a RGIII if we like him...Bradford also comes into play here...
This is the starting point without doubt...
BOTH 2012 1st Rounders
2013 1st Rounder
Sprinkle in any combination of one two or three mid picks and u get Luck...
If we can do this for those 3 First Rounders and a 3rd and 4th...U JUMP ON IT...Even if the 3rd and 4th are THIS year...
U still have your 2nd rounder which is very high...
A 4th because we have TWO...
A 5th/6th/7th and any Comp Picks...
And ALL of your 2013 draft minus the 1st rounder...
And u land the FACE of this Franchise for the next 12+ years at the MOST IMPORTANT position on any football team...
I GUARANTEE u that Heck & Homie will be all over this...We WILL try...
When I wrote that, I had my mind on Bradford and what the Rams reportedly wanted for that pick...I wasn't being melodramatic at all..
Again, you obviously (and I don't blame you) didn't digest the entire thread so you have no idea where I was coming from...
Hey,, if we are at 3 ,4 or 5, you are right, it won't take a ton to move up to 1 to grab luck and yeah, there isn't any doubt H&H will look at it.. they gotta..
as you said, for sure it will take both 1's this year and more to get the top spot.
If the Rams end up with it, one of two things could happen.. Either that pick or Bradford will be available. Not sure which.
If Indy gets that pick, I'm not sure anything could pry that pick away but I guess it could mean that Manning might be available.. that's gotta be considered a long shot right? I don't see them passing on that pick. They will take Luck and not think twice. Manning is close to the end anyway.
Who else is in the mix? The Vikings? they could be in the running for that first pick I guess.. probably not.
So of the three teams that could end up with the 1st pick (realistically, at this time, it's really only 2 teams (indy and St. Louis).. one will certainly take Luck, they other may take him and leave Bradford out there ripe for a trade.
Does Shurmur think enough of Bradford to push for him?
I still have to ask a question,, how much is too much? I mean, it's not JUST the picks you gotta give up. it's the future of the franchise.
That's a lot to risk... May be worth it.. may not. Luck works out,, terrific. but you don't have picks to add impact players for the next two years. Luck doesn't work out,,, wow,, that's a killer for the next 5 years or maybe more.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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We r gonna be at either 3-4-5 in this draft...It WILL NOT take our ENTIRE draft plus our #1 in 2013 to get Luck...IF that's the demand I tell Indy or the Rams to stick it...And sit tight or possibly make a move for a RGIII if we like him...Bradford also comes into play here...
I've been looking into this ..of course the buyer sets the market..but if the Rams wind up with that # 1 pick ,they will be easier to deal with than Indy..if I'm the GM of the Colts,I'm not trading that pick for obvious reasons..one more bad hit on Manning and he's done for..
If I'm the Rams..I really have too much invested in SB,not to mention the cap hit to trade him..
I do not believe it will take 3 1st rounders to land Luck..at least it will not take all of our draft to do it..the Browns have more ammo than any other team to move up BUT ,they have to be shrewd in attempting a move like that and not handcuff themselves into having no other high picks to aquire talent..at this point lets hope the Rams lose,the Colts win and Minney wins..
If the Browns can move into the 3 slot ,they can take Griffith..I don't think Minney would take a QB this year but strange things happen when they draft high.
If the Colts get that #1 pick MH should still inquire but not expect them to be reasonable to deal with.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/29/11 10:55 AM.
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Id rather (deal for with ATL pick) have Tannehill than deal for Bradford. I'd rather not pick a QB than deal for Bradford.
If you want to deal, it's Luck or bust.
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Id rather (deal for with ATL pick) have Tannehill than deal for Bradford. I'd rather not pick a QB than deal for Bradford.
If you want to deal, it's Luck or bust.
?
#GMSTRONG
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#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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LOL! I actually should have replied to those above in reference to whether Shurmer liked Bradford enough to work something out for him. I'll be ok once the meds kick in! 
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“Mike Holmgren tries to squeeze everybody into that system, I’ve got news for ya, the west coast system is not a world beater anymore,” Evans said. “In the 80′s early 90′s it caught everybody off guard the crossing routes all the mix and matches. Now if you’ve got good DC’s and disciplined players on the defensive side of the football it’s not beating anybody.”
Mike McCarthy and the Green Bay Packers, who run an offense deeply-rooted in the WCO, would disagree...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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LOL!
I actually should have replied to those above in reference to whether Shurmer liked Bradford enough to work something out for him.
I'll be ok once the meds kick in!
Worry not my friend.,.., I to am missing a few meds 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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“Mike Holmgren tries to squeeze everybody into that system, I’ve got news for ya, the west coast system is not a world beater anymore,” Evans said. “In the 80′s early 90′s it caught everybody off guard the crossing routes all the mix and matches. Now if you’ve got good DC’s and disciplined players on the defensive side of the football it’s not beating anybody.”
Mike McCarthy and the Green Bay Packers, who run an offense deeply-rooted in the WCO, would disagree...
If you listen to the interview you would hear what he said. The Browns version is archaic and has not evolved. The Packers and Saints have.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I listened to it..it sounded like a disgruntled player with a ax to grind,even though some of the stuff may be accurate..however I don't buy that he still has contact with everyone in the Browns locker..it sounded like something just to get people riled up,and it did to a degree..but perhaps people should have also listened to Solomon Wilcox who came on right after that..seems he didn't agree with those takes at all..
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Hey,, if we are at 3 ,4 or 5, you are right, it won't take a ton to move up to 1 to grab luck and yeah, there isn't any doubt H&H will look at it.. they gotta..
I thought it was "comical" for anyone to think we'd even consider trading up for Andrew Luck?
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He said Ben Watson is one of his best friends. Seriously, What axe does he have to grind. He admitted that Mack Strong was the best FB in football. He also was upset that he felt they had the most talented team in Football and that they left a couple SuperBowls on the field. He said what we say, that anyone can call the play coming up, the receivers stink, the O-line is bad amongst other things. If you ask me it is refreshing to hear from a guy that could care less about Cleveland, just an honest opinion that falls in line with what Warner and Gannon amongst others have stated.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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“Mike Holmgren tries to squeeze everybody into that system, I’ve got news for ya, the west coast system is not a world beater anymore,” Evans said. “In the 80′s early 90′s it caught everybody off guard the crossing routes all the mix and matches. Now if you’ve got good DC’s and disciplined players on the defensive side of the football it’s not beating anybody.”
Mike McCarthy and the Green Bay Packers, who run an offense deeply-rooted in the WCO, would disagree...
If you listen to the interview you would hear what he said. The Browns version is archaic and has not evolved. The Packers and Saints have.
I don't have to hear it. I'm reading it, quoted for true interpretation.
He says....and I quote..."The West Coast System is not a world beater anymore."
His words. Not mine.
Now if he mis-spoke, that's his problem. Not mine.
Besides, virtually every offense in the NFL works if executed properly. There's nothing more vanilla than what the Niners are running, and they are winning because they execute.
As Clemmy noted in his thread, even McCarthy catches hell. I'm not worried about what a backup FB with an axe to grind has to say, especially when he's wrong.
Really, he's as bad as Mac with his conspiracy stuff. Evans has no proof whatsoever to say Hillis dogged it. From where I'm sitting, Evans doesn't have any credibility here when he says the WCO is antiquated.
Again, there is no more vanilla offense than what the Niners are running. Hell, they run college sweep plays! And guess what...they are running a ton of WCO concepts as well. But they are winning. Why? Because they have players who can execute.
Evans...fail. Quote:
just an honest opinion that falls in line with what Warner and Gannon amongst others have stated.
Yeah...the same Rich Gannon that posted an article saying McCoy deserved more time, then on-air, during the game, said he hadn't shown enough to warrant more time.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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And many other national types have said the opposite.
The only people that really matter are in Browns Headquarters in Berea. We'll see what they think soon enough.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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“Mike Holmgren tries to squeeze everybody into that system, I’ve got news for ya, the west coast system is not a world beater anymore,” Evans said. “In the 80′s early 90′s it caught everybody off guard the crossing routes all the mix and matches. Now if you’ve got good DC’s and disciplined players on the defensive side of the football it’s not beating anybody.”
Mike McCarthy and the Green Bay Packers, who run an offense deeply-rooted in the WCO, would disagree...
If you listen to the interview you would hear what he said. The Browns version is archaic and has not evolved. The Packers and Saints have.
I don't have to hear it. I'm reading it, quoted for true interpretation.
He says....and I quote..."The West Coast System is not a world beater anymore."
His words. Not mine.
Now if he mis-spoke, that's his problem. Not mine.
Besides, virtually every offense in the NFL works if executed properly. There's nothing more vanilla than what the Niners are running, and they are winning because they execute.
As Clemmy noted in his thread, even McCarthy catches hell. I'm not worried about what a backup FB with an axe to grind has to say, especially when he's wrong.
Really, he's as bad as Mac with his conspiracy stuff. Evans has no proof whatsoever to say Hillis dogged it. From where I'm sitting, Evans doesn't have any credibility here when he says the WCO is antiquated.
Again, there is no more vanilla offense than what the Niners are running. Hell, they run college sweep plays! And guess what...they are running a ton of WCO concepts as well. But they are winning. Why? Because they have players who can execute.
Evans...fail.
Of Course you don't want to hear it..Nananana I can't hear you.haha I would say it's the 49's Defense that is the big reason. The fact that they have Frank Gore and a #1 TE, 3 #1 receivers(that aren't good) but still have to watch out for has nothing to do with it. He also said Holmgren probably won't even look at RG3. Let's pray this is true. Weapons an offensive line, receivers that catch and a sign of the times offense..yep sounds right about what we need. Evans passes. I respect a real pro's opinion and like I said most of the truly respected Players and people commenting on the Browns from outside Berea fall in line with this thinking. I think Holmgren and Heckert know now. We will see.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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What axe does he have to grind
Whatever pissed him off..being benched,not getting paid.. whateva..his voice/tone sounded more like he has issues with the coaches.now what Wilcox countered was that Evans failed to mention the things Holmy was going through in his personal life while at Seattle..
He also was upset that he felt they had the most talented team in Football and that they left a couple SuperBowls on the field.
Ask the Bengals and many other teams that same question and see what response U get..thats nothing new . Sure all those former SB losers were upset too..
He said what we say, that anyone can call the play coming up, the receivers stink, the O-line is bad amongst other things.
Do U expect MH/TH to say that publicly? Really this isn't something I need to get emotional about..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/29/11 12:50 PM.
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What axe does he have to grind
Wahtever pissed him off..being benched,not getting paid.. whateva..his voice/tone sounded more like he has issues with the coaches.now what Wilcox countered was that Evans failed to mention the things Holmy was going through in his personal life while at Seattle..
He also was upset that he felt they had the most talented team in Football and that they left a couple SuperBowls on the field.
Ask the Bengals and many other teams that same questiona and see what response U get..thats nothing new .
He said what we say, that anyone can call the play coming up, the receivers stink, the O-line is bad amongst other things.
Do U expect MH/TH to say that publicly?
I know that..I like Holmgren don't get me wrong. I really like Heckert though. We all know that His wife had Cancer and was going through rough times. He said Holmgren would say one thing, Gil Haskell would say another and everything was mixed. From the protections on down the line. The Coaches didn't know who to listen to. He was just talking about the difference between Coaches..That it was Holmgrens way or the Highway which is how Belichek was when he was here, but he and Sean Payton asked the players what they like, what they think will work and How can they best be used where as Holmgren and Shurmer(guessing) think that the system is Fool proof. That is why he talked about game planning. Of Course I don't think they will admit that. They don't have to, they just need to fix it and be able to adapt. They have failed at that and noted the difference between the Defensive side playing their hearts out and the Offensive side going through the motions. McCoy was hand picked by Holmgren and if he is as stubborn as I believe he is, McCoy is going nowhere and he will continue to be groomed with better weapons.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I would say it's the 49's Defense that is the big reason. The fact that they have Frank Gore and a #1 TE, 3 #1 receivers(that aren't good) but still have to watch out for has nothing to do with it.
So I make the point that they have players who execute their vanilla offense, and you refute it by saying...they have players that execute their offense.
BTW, if you think Williams and Crabtree aren't any good, you're
The truth is their offense is super-simple but it works because they have players that execute. If we had a line that could block, a QB that could throw, and receivers who could catch, this offense would work.
People tend to (or want to) forget that we ran a more complex offense at the beginning of the year. It failed, miserably, because the players weren't getting it. Shurmur scaled back the offense to try and fix that problem.
This leads me to another reality that far too many fans don't understand. Complex offenses only work because elite players make it go. The sorrier the players are, the more simplistic the offense has to be. The better the players are, the more complex the offense can be. *shrug*
The sad truth is none of these announcers...NONE OF THEM...watch the amount of Browns football we do. They don't rewatch all the games. They don't get game-film. Most of them parrot what others say.
Evans says the WCO doesn't get it done anymore. He's wrong.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Evans says the WCO doesn't get it done anymore. He's wrong.
C-L-U-E-L-E-S-S...
Fullback? We talkin' bout' a Fullback...Fullback...We talkin' bout a Fullback...
Go Browns!!!
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Id rather (deal for with ATL pick) have Tannehill than deal for Bradford. I'd rather not pick a QB than deal for Bradford.
If you want to deal, it's Luck or bust.
?
If I understand this correctly, he's saying that if you're the Browns and trading away picks, it's not going to be for Sam Bradford. It'll have to be to move up and get Andrew Luck.
There has been speculation that we could deal with St. Louis over Bradford if they end up with the #1 pick and select Luck, making Bradford seemingly expendable. If that's true, I wouldn't give anything more than a 2nd and I'd see if I could give them as little as the 3rd rounder for him. I wouldn't give them either one of the 1st round picks.
Like him or not, Bradford became the #1 pick despite having major shoulder surgery and has missed time this year due to injuries. He didn't lose 6 games playing time due to coaching issues, but injuries.
If you want to give up more, that's your problem. I just wouldn't do it.
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Not sure if Anyone caught the Heath Evans interview today on 92.3 The fan. Good stuff! The interview is on their site.
Heath Evans
Loyal...good find, thanks for posting...
Heath Evans is but one ex football player with opinions but he also has a platform, the NFL network, so his opinions could have a larger audience and more support.
On the subject of McCoy, I have to agree with Evans, there are much bigger and far too many more needs on this team than QB. Building the support cast should be the priority, imo.
On the subject of Holmgren...I think it's healthy for an ex-player to openly question his ex-headcoach. But the worst thing Evans could say about Holmgren was he tries to force players into his system and Holmgren coached with "inconsistency".
Here is the article that goes with the Evans audio...
NFL Network Analyst Heath Evans Slams Holmgren, Hillis, Browns Offense
December 29, 2011
CLEVELAND (92.3 The Fan) – Count NFL Network analyst and former NFL fullback Heath Evans as someone who doesn’t appear to be a big fan of Mike Holmgren and his current regime with the Browns.
Evans, who played for the Seahawks, Dolphins, Saints and Patriots, came on with the “Bull and Fox” on 92.3 The Fan on Wednesday, and opened some eyes wondering if Holmgren is truly the answer for the Browns.
“I’m not sure if Mike Holmgren’s the guy to actually turn this thing around in Cleveland,” Evans said. “There is so much more of a bigger need than replacing Colt McCoy in Cleveland.”
Count Evans as a fan of McCoy, but at the same time he feels that an offense that leads the team in drops is a huge reason why the QB hasn’t gotten the credit he’s deserved this season.
“If you take away half the drops, Colt McCoy is right in the middle of half the quarterbacks right now,” Evans said.
The analyst was asked more about Holmgren, who he played under while with the Seahawks. While saying that there was a lot of dysfunction while with Seattle, Evans said on “Bull and Fox” that Holmgren simply hasn’t adopted to the style of today’s NFL.
“Mike Holmgren tries to squeeze everybody into that system, I’ve got news for ya, the west coast system is not a world beater anymore,” Evans said. “In the 80′s early 90′s it caught everybody off guard the crossing routes all the mix and matches. Now if you’ve got good DC’s and disciplined players on the defensive side of the football it’s not beating anybody.”
While Evans doesn’t appear to be a big fan of Holmgren, one coach he does admire is Bill Belichick, who still is looking for another Super Bowl ring with the Pats. Evans says that unlike Holmgren, Belichick has adopted to today’s NFL style.
“We were a game plan team in New England, they still are,” Evans said. “That’s why a majority of the time they come out on the winning side of the football.”
Evans says a big issue with Holmgren is how he forces the issue with players. He says that on the offensive side of the ball, the Browns are way to simple, and it goes back to what Holmgren has done with the roster.
“I think Mike just has a problem for seeing what each individual player can add to a team, instead of trying to stuff everybody into a system,” Evans said. “I watch this offensive football team (the Browns) and I can call most of the plays.”
Then there’s the saga with running back Peyton Hillis. The bruiser ran himself into injuries that cost him six games this year, and Evans says from the people he’s spoken to about it, Hillis may not have been as banged up as he claimed to be.
“I just hear a lot of mixed emotion from players coming out of there about his position,” Evans said. “You talk about guys questioning if he could have played, so many different things that have stirred up my thought process, hamstrings are funny things. This guys gets right back on the field and has big games, hamstrings don’t act that way.”
Evans says while he has not actual proof that Hillis was tanking it, there’s a number of reasons to believe that the running back was only looking out for his best interest when thinking about the future.
“Can I comment with facts? No, but there’s a lot coming out of that locker room that has raised my ear and made me say what is truly going on there,” Evans said.
The future of the Browns is for sure up in the air. The team is heading towards a likely 12 loss season, and with it, Evans said Wednesday that things need to change for the team to finally take a step to the next level.
“There’s some dysfunction there if the Cleveland Browns want to be successful have to be corrected, especially in that division,” Evans said
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With Browns fans angry over this disappointing season, I have no doubt Holmgren will be attacked and blamed by some in the media and some fans, due to the Heath Evans interview.
But Holmgren is not going anywhere and the process of upgrading the talent on the team, primarily through the draft, will continue. Holmgren has already commented on the subject of adding a offensive coordinator in the off season so it's not like Holmgren is not aware of some of the issues Evans brings up concerning Shurmur's offense.
Should Holmgren take Evans criticism seriously...maybe...at the least, Holmgren needs to listen to what Evans had to say...listening to the criticism from those qualified to comment, can be a healthy thing.
But, it should be remembered that Heath Evans was a backup for Holmgren in Seattle for 4 yrs...does he have an axe to grind?...I don't know, but he does have opinions that should be given a degree of weight...how much weight...some.
Nothing new here. Colt is likely gone, as is Hillis, creating two new holes when the real hole that needs to be refilled is at HC.
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Hey,, if we are at 3 ,4 or 5, you are right, it won't take a ton to move up to 1 to grab luck and yeah, there isn't any doubt H&H will look at it.. they gotta..
I thought it was "comical" for anyone to think we'd even consider trading up for Andrew Luck?
it is., I still don't think it will happen. I don't believe whoever gets the first pick will trade it.. It's looking like it will be either the Rams or Colts. I can't believe for a second that the Rams are 100% sold on Bradford (and he's extremely hard on the CAP) and you know the situation with the Colts,,
So even if we only have to move a couple of spots, it's going to cost too much for it to make sense..
So while anythig is possible, I do indeed think it's comical...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I agree, Homie wanted Bradford.
It was simply a matter of the price being unrealistic or the Rams weren't interested in moving out of the pick.
Which, if you go back and look, was my point. I never said that Holmgren didn't want Bradford.. never. I just said that he didn't want to turn over his entire draft to get him.. and that he'd be an idiot to do so.. Therefore, he's not an Idiot in my view.
On a side note, how would that have worked out if Bradford ended up in Cleveland? It's a cautionary tale. Spend a ton of money and lots of current and future picks to get a guy like Bradford (or maybe Luck this year) and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.. if it does, great,, but you got no way to add players of value later because you gave away your picks unless you go with FA's.
If it doesn't work out, you spent a ton of dough, got nothing for it and you still can't get guys because you spent all your picks to get him..
Call me crazy, but I'm not sure the risk is really worth taking..
If you have the first pick naturally or you are close enought that you don't have to give up the house, fine.. go for it. But if you gotta give up everything to get one piece when you have so many holes,,,, YOU GOTTA BE NUTS...
To be honest, my reply was to a comment.
I skim a lot these days. I comment on things I strongly agree with or strongly disagree with.
All the rest isn't worth the effort.
That isn't to say the comments aren't important or anything like that.
I just don't feel like hashing it out on points of topic the way I did 3-4-5-6 years ago.
Maybe I am getting old and just don't care as much or have the energy, or as I age I realize it is fruitless to bicker over points that don't really matter.
All's cool here.
As to your new comments, I understand there is risk in making a move up. I am uncomfortable as are you in that regard.
I guess the difference is I am convinced Colt is a scrub and will never be a solid NFL QB.
That makes my apprehension level a little less.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I skim a lot these days.
I can tell.. you only have 17823 posts..... 
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j/c I found an interesting link on another fansite that was quite illuminating. It shows why some scouts/draf gurus are high on RG3. In it, the author not only evaluates RG3's assets, he backs them up with film... a nice touch.Som of the film is a bit choppy, but is nice to have for folks who haven't seen him play. I'll post the text and the link, but you really shoud visit the site to look at the pretty moving pictures, as well. __________________________ Robert Griffin III 2012 NFL Draft Scouting Report Matt Miller December 12, 2011Features, NFL Draft, Scouting Reports What makes Baylor’s Robert Griffin III a great NFL draft prospect? Let’s get inside the game of the Heisman Trophy winning quarterback to see what traits he brings to the next level and what areas need improvement. As part of the pre-draft process, all draft-eligible players are scouted a minimum of three games and graded on seven traits. The traits for a quarterback are shown below, with Griffin’s grade for each and his overall score—an average of the seven traits. Height: 6’2″ Weight: 220lbs 40 Time: 4.49 (projected) Accuracy: 8 Film Study: Throwing accurately on the run is a skill few quarterbacks have. Griffin has it. Few quarterbacks have the balance, flexibility or strength to make this throw the way Griffin does. Watch the ball to see how he keeps it at throwing-level while running. When RG3 throws, the ball doesn’t arc, but travels on a line to the target, who is able to catch the ball without extending. This is perfection. Overall: While Griffin’s accuracy is very good, especially for a mobile quarterback, I would like to see him more consistent on both out routes and up the seam. You will see Griffin slightly overthrow players if you spend time watching his film, something that can be helped in the NFL by faster receivers, but more patience in his throwing motion and more consistency in his drop steps and follow through will help Griffin become more accurate. What I like to see is accuracy to all levels, and RG3 has that. His throw to beat Oklahoma showed the deep accuracy to attack defenses, and his throw here shows the intermediate accuracy and timing to pick apart a zone or press bail coverage while in the pocket or on the move. Arm Strength: 10 Film Study: An underrated characteristic of RG3 is his arm strength. Too many look at the Baylor offense and assume Griffin is throwing check downs and bubble screens. Not so. On this play, which is now infamous, Griffin delivers a strike across the field, under pressure, and does so accurately to a receiver with two defenders in the area. Two things to note on this play, just on the throw alone. The ball traveled 42 yards in the air and did so on a line. The football wasn’t thrown up for the receiver to jump and catch, this was a straight throw to the end zone. That’s impressive. Second, the accuracy with which this ball is delivered is unreal. Watch this play over and over again if you need proof that RG3 can succeed in the NFL. Overall: Among Griffin’s best traits is his ability to throw the football to all levels of the field with velocity. Griffin has a live arm and can attack deep coverage. He has an easy, smooth throwing motion that shows little effort, but the ball jumps out of his hands with surprising speed and tight spirals. Much like Cam Newton’s rookie season, Griffin could be an immediate impact if asked to stretch the field and exploit deep coverage. Athleticism/Mobility: 10 Film Study: This play is a great example of how Griffin’s mobility translates to the NFL. Too often we see college quarterbacks simply outrun the defense, which isn’t always valid once they are facing faster defenders in the NFL. What I look for is the presence of mind to feel the rush, the vision to find the opening and then the speed to pick up available yards. That’s what RG3 does here. Overall: A former track star, Griffin is an electric and dangerous runner. He has the speed and agility to jump out of the pocket and pick up yards, or can be used on designed runs. Throws well on the move and has the strength to throw across his body. Is able to start-and-stop on the move to set up for deep throws, but also has the arm strength to throw deep routes on the move without setting up. Decision Making: 7 Film Study: The film shows a rare mistake by Griffin, who gets frustrated with the lack of protection and starts to work away from the line of scrimmage instead of throwing the ball away. As RG3 moves to the next level he will have to learn when to throw the ball away, and also to never work away from the line of scrimmage to avoid a pass rush. Overall: Does a fair amount of pre-snap recognition based on Baylor game film study. Griffin, unlike many college quarterbacks, does not take direction from the sideline and is tasked with reading the defense. Field Vision: 9 Film Study: Two plays to look at here. The first play shows Baylor with two wide receivers at the bottom of the screen. What’s important to note here is how quickly Griffin recognizes the coverage and that he makes the right read in getting the football to Kendall Wright, who sat down against the off coverage from Rice. This is the same read Tom Brady makes when deciding if he should hit Wes Welker or Rob Gronkowski. The second play gives RG3 a run/pass option, and again he makes the right decision by pulling two defenders toward him (being a run threat will do this in the NFL too) and then throwing the ball behind the defenders who pursued him. This is easy pitch-and-catch, but shows the threat that RG3 will be against defenses. Overall: Most mobile quarterbacks struggle to maintain field vision as they lock in on defenders coming at them instead of keeping their eyes up-field and toward the coverage. Griffin does a great job keeping his eyes up, and continuing to read the defense even as he moves around and out of the pocket. Griffin doesn’t have the experience of Andrew Luck at reading a defense and making checks at the line, but he does have a very high IQ and a high football IQ, two things that will quickly enable him to learn and adapt at the NFL level. Mechanics: 9 Film Study: Here we see a rear-view shot of Griffin throwing under pressure. Note that while his release point drops to below his shoulder, the ball comes out with good velocity and with good arc. The key here is that Griffin’s foot work is solid. He sees the pressure coming, but sets his feet and doesn’t throw off his back foot, which would be what most young quarterbacks do in this situation as they shy away from the big hit. Overall: Griffin has a quick delivery and does not waste time or motion in delivering the ball. While his motion can change, generally seen as a negative, there is no change in accuracy or velocity from various release points. Does not have classic over-the-top motion, but the end result is the same. Has played both under center and in shotgun sets and has the feet to quickly transition if asked to move to a system that requires him to come under center. Will need coached up to time his drop steps. Pocket Presence: 9 Film Study: On this play we see a breakdown by the Baylor offensive line, but RG3 stands tall in the pocket and delivers the football without backing down, and without making the mistake of backing into his end-zone to evade the pass rush coming off both edges and up the middle of the field. This is a trait that is very hard to teach, and can be the difference between Cam Newton-like success and Blaine Gabbert-like failure. Overall: Griffin does need work to become more consistent in his pocket presence. At the college level he has the speed to quickly jump outside the pocket and pick up yards, or out-run the defenders to gain a passing window. That will not be the case in the NFL. If RG3 is to make a successful transition to the next level, learning to be a pocket passer first and runner second will be his biggest hurdle. Overall: 8.85 Robert Griffin has made a fast climb up my pre-draft rankings, starting the season as No. 33 overall and ending the regular season as the No. 2 overall player in the country. Griffin answered doubts about his deep accuracy, his mechanics and his ability to lead. No player in college football or in the 2012 NFL draft class has the ability to take over a game like Griffin. His threat as a run/pass option and his exceptional arm strength and deep accuracy make him as exciting a prospect as I can remember scouting. see the moving pictures here
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Thanks.
He reminds me a bit of Warren Moon with his arm and mobility.
Some people worry about not being under center. I don't worry about that much.
With everything else he has, I can work with the guy and choppy footwork if we need him under center. As athletic as the guy is I can't imagine that being his downfall.
Actually, I worry more about the listed measurements. If it turns out the guy is more like 6' tall, I'd consider that more of a problem then wonder if he can line up under center because if he can't, don't put him there.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Actually, I worry more about the listed measurements. If it turns out the guy is more like 6' tall, I'd consider that more of a problem then wonder if he can line up under center because if he can't, don't put him there.
That's just it, he can't line up under center.
Baylor rode Ganaway to a victory tonight, not RG3.
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Thanks for the post on RG3. I'm really not sure of him, I've only watched one of his games and his throws all seem to be deep highlight reel throws on his highlights. But I'm sure Heckert will be able to decide if he's the guy we should get when we pick (or what we should do period) Here's an article on McCoy that just came out on the ClevePD I like Colt a lot, and I'd like to at least try to keep him as a back up. What I don't want is some development QB or some FA. Why do that when we already have that here. Let's fix the QB with a real fix or let's try to improve what we have around McCoy himself. I do think McCoy will improve with a full offseason to work with the coaches and staff. I think he's a good guy, has a lot of heart, and is a tough kid. I also think that he's a winner, and while he hasn't been winning lately, he'll get that back. He'll always be hindered by lack of talent though. He's just not THAT accurate and doesn't throw a great deep ball. But it doesn't mean he won't get better. He's not some JeMarcus Russell lazy pants. I hope that he at least gets to stay on the team, there's just something i like about him Here's an article with McCoy saying he wants to be in Cleveland. Didn't see it anywhere on the boards so I figured I'd post it. If it's already been posted, please delete it refs. Quote:
Cleveland Browns' Colt McCoy talks publicly for first time since concussion diagnosis: 'I want to be here'
Published: Thursday, December 29, 2011, 9:14 PM
Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer
BEREA, Ohio -- Browns quarterback Colt McCoy hopes the crushing helmet-to-face-mask smash from Steelers' linebacker James Harrison on Dec. 8 wasn't the last big impact he'll have in a Browns uniform.
McCoy suffered a concussion on the hit and because of lingering concussion symptoms, he is expected to miss his third straight start Sunday when the Browns host the Steelers. McCoy on Thursday spoke to the media for the first time since being diagnosed with the concussion on Dec. 9.
McCoy is hoping that when the fog clears and the dust settles, he'll still be the Browns' quarterback of the future.
"It's unfortunate that I wasn't able to play these last two games, but I think that's a question you can ask [coach] Pat [Shurmur] or [General Manager] Tom [Heckert] or [President] Mike [Holmgren]," McCoy said. "Anytime you go through a season like this, every person is going to get evaluated, including me, the quarterback. I think that's the right way to go about things.
"There are two things I can control: One, I can control how hard I work, how hard I prepare. And the second one is I can control how I feel. I want to be here. I love this city. I love my teammates. I'll do anything. I want to be here, so after that, speculation has never gotten me anywhere. I'm a factual guy. That's all I've got."
Pressed later in the interview if he has a sense of how things will go, he said: "I want to be part of the resurrection of the Browns. That's what I'm here for. Aside from that, I don't know anything else."
The Browns have publicly said they'll wait until after the season to make a decision about McCoy's future with the team, but McCoy said he's received good feedback behind the scenes.
"Well, I think right now, throughout the year, you talk and you go over things, and it has been really positive and really good," he said. "But I think, at this point, our team's focus is on finishing strong. Our team's focus is on beating Pittsburgh, and my focus is getting healthy and doing everything I can to be able to contribute this weekend, and then I think those talks will come at the end of the season."
McCoy said he's not afraid his dad's comments to The Plain Dealer damaged his relationship with the Browns. Brad McCoy, a longtime high school football coach, said his son shouldn't have gone back into the game Dec. 8 just two plays after Harrison's hit. Brad McCoy said his son wasn't examined thoroughly enough after the hit and that after the game Colt McCoy didn't remember what happened.
"I have talked to my dad and I have addressed some things with my dad, and what we talk about I'm going to keep private and keep that between us," he said.
Shurmur wasn't shy about saying Thursday that he planned to watch Heisman Trophy winning quarterback Robert Griffin III of Baylor play in Thursday night's Alamo Bowl.
"Oh, yeah, once our day is over and we have the plan in, I'll find a way to watch some of that game, I'm sure," Shurmur said.
Shurmur said he's seen Griffin play this year and that the junior is a tremendous talent.
McCoy declined to answer specific questions about the concussion, including what he does and doesn't remember and what occurred on the sideline. He also declined to specify the nature of the lingering symptoms -- the ones that have prevented him from passing a baseline concussion test and practicing with the team.
"I just don't want to go there, guys," he said. "I really don't want to recreate anything. I don't even want to think about it. I can tell you that I'm feeling a lot better, especially of late. I really feel like I'm coming out of this, and I hope to at least be able to be out there this weekend and help my team."
McCoy also did not want to talk about Harrison, who was suspended for one game for the illegal hit and lost about $73,000 as a result. Asked if the hit was a cheap shot or if he has any animosity toward Harrison, he said: "No, I really have no opinion. I think the league has handled that, and I'm doing the best that I can to move forward and do the best I can to get healthy and get back and help our team."
Sporting a three-week old beard -- a new look for the typically clean-shaven QB -- McCoy looked as if he had emerged from an extended stay in a man cave.
"Well, I really haven't done much, so [the beard] just kind of happens," he said.
He repeatedly said the Browns' medical staff shouldn't be maligned for how it handled things on the sidelines in Pittsburgh.
"Their first priority is safety of the players. I think if you asked anybody in this locker room, they're pro health for the players," McCoy said. "What I can tell you is our medical staff does an outstanding job, and that should never be in question."
McCoy's concussion is one of the worst -- if not the worst -- of the 12 suffered by nine Browns players this season.
Tight end Ben Watson will have missed the final three games of the season because of a concussion suffered against the Steelers, but he said his symptoms were gone a few days after the game and that going on injured reserve was to prevent a fourth concussion this season.
The other players with concussions have missed two games or fewer, including receiver Jordan Norwood, who will miss his second Sunday.
"I can tell you that I'm feeling a lot better and I've made a ton of progress, especially of late, and I feel really good," McCoy said. "I'm really close."
Because of how things were handled in Pittsburgh -- from the time of Harrison's hit until the end of the game -- the NFL ordered a certified athletic trainer to be in the press box at all games. Doctors can also now carry cellphones on the sidelines. The league did not fine the Browns, but the NFL Players Association will decide as early as next week whether to file a grievance against the team.
McCoy might be cleared in time to at least be on the sideline for the Steelers game.
"I'd do anything to be out there and play," he said. "I'd love to. I feel better and [I'm] really trying to be out there this weekend."
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Same guy said Colt McCoy was a lock to be selected in the first round.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
He shouldn't be considered a rookie because he has gone through a training camp the previous year. He has seen NFL game speed. He knows how to prepare for an NFL defense or should because of last year and he had some time to work with most of the players on offense during last season. He has gone against some of the better defenses in the league before this season as well unlike the rookies anyone would like to compare him to. Even though it's a new offense he still had 8 pro games under his belt. It doesn't matter how he got to play last year, he played.
Exactly.
Well said.
Fine, then compare him to Bradford, Tebow, Clausen and the rest of his draft class... just stop comparing him to Aaron Rodgers and Manning and Brees and anybody else in the prime of their career.
yebat' Putin
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