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I know someone's going to come around and say that fullbacks don't matter in the grand scheme, and Vickers is overrated, etc. ...
... but, man, we blew a 4th round pick. Badly. When we needed all the help we could get.
How important was that 4th? Again, up for debate.
But with a team nearly void of talent, instead of working with our chips to acquire competent talent, we let competent talent go to draft ... Owen Marecic.
It's been said many times, many ways that Vickers was let go because of his inability to fit in with the WCO we installed ... it was said we need a pass catching FB.
Marecic: 5 catches 31 yards 6.2 avg 11 long
Vickers: 4 catches 29 yards 7.3 avg 17 long
In the grand scheme, did this set our franchise back significantly? Probably not.
But it was a dumb move. I've watched the Texans all year, and, man ... Vickers helps their run game.
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someone will be making this same post next year but it'll say Hillis at the end instead..
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We also miss Bernie Kosar, Jim Brown, Lou Groza, and Otto Graham. The point is, they're gone and so is Vickers. You say it probably didn't set the franchise back significantly, but your post makes it sound like we got rid of a Hall of Famer.
I remember when Tyrelle Smith was let go and we brought Vickers in. It was all about how we let one of the best blocking FBs in the league go for an unproven rookie. Sound familiar?
Look, I get that Vickers was/is a solid FB, but Marecic my reach that level and make us forget about Vickers the way we forgot about Smith.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Quote:
You say it probably didn't set the franchise back significantly, but your post makes it sound like we got rid of a Hall of Famer.
Read what you wrote before the comma, and then after.
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I remember when Tyrelle Smith was let go and we brought Vickers in. It was all about how we let one of the best blocking FBs in the league go for an unproven rookie. Sound familiar?
I was actually intending to include that in post, but forgot. 
As far as those two ... Vickers is way better than Smith was.
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Look, I get that Vickers was/is a solid FB, but Marecic my reach that level and make us forget about Vickers the way we forgot about Smith.
That's possible, yes.
But I watched Smith when he went to the Cards. Meh.
Vickers has ripped holes for his RB's quite a bit this season. We could've used that.
And beyond that ... Vickers as a rookie, had his missteps ... but it was a Pro Bowl season in comparison to Marecic. That is kid is LOST and I'd be surprised if he's playing football after the H/H/Shumur regime (unless Harbaugh picks him up for ST). For every good block he's had, I can think of 3 where he was crumbled or whiffed.
Is Vickers the reason we lose? No.
Could Vickers have helped the run game, and by extension, the pass game, for us this season? I think so.
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Quote:
You say it probably didn't set the franchise back significantly, but your post makes it sound like we got rid of a Hall of Famer.
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Read what you wrote before the comma, and then after.
Not sure what you mean? Maybe I wasn't clear in how I wrote it. What I meant was most of your post sounded like it was horrible that we got rid of Vickers. On the other hand, you mentioned that it probably didn't set the franchise back. I guess to me it seemed like a contradiction.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Quote:
Quote:
You say it probably didn't set the franchise back significantly, but your post makes it sound like we got rid of a Hall of Famer.
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Read what you wrote before the comma, and then after.
Not sure what you mean? Maybe I wasn't clear in how I wrote it. What I meant was most of your post sounded like it was horrible that we got rid of Vickers. On the other hand, you mentioned that it probably didn't set the franchise back. I guess to me it seemed like a contradiction.
To clarify ...
Itself, I don't think it was the most devastating mistake ever, and I don't know that we'll think about it much in a few years.
But Mangini's 2009 draft set us back about 2-3 years, IMO. Guy had 4 picks in the first two rounds ... two are still on the team, and only one has performed to an acceptable level (even though I think MoMass gets more flak than he should around here).
With that said ... the window has tightened. The missteps, even the little ones, are that much more vital because we dug ourselves such a hole.
We dug ourselves into such a deep hole that fourth rounders actually matter. We need that long shot to hit, because, man, we're bad.
And we chose to let a proven player walk to draft his replacement.
Was letting Vickers go and drafting Marecic an error that will haunt us for years? Doubt it. It wasn't even a deep draft at that point.
But had we kept Vickers, and spent that 4th elsewhere, would we be better off? IMO, it's highly likely.
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I am right here...
Oh wait... Lawrence ????
I do double takes on my namesake brother.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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You know who I miss more? Brad Seely
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
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You know who I miss more? Brad Seely
I can get behind that.
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I think it's unfair to compare a vet in his 6th season to a rookie...if anything compare them as rookies...and I know that everyone on here whined about Smith being gone and that rookie being trash....even FBs take some time and I've seen some stuff to develop with Marecic....he was thrown into cold water like other rooks on this team and he doesn't swim as good in it like a Sheard, Pinkston or Taylor....but again, those guys aren't the norm....me thinks guys around here underestimate the exceptional work by HEckert and the coaches to have those rooks playing at the level they're playing ...expecting a late 4th rounder to contribute at AVG NFL level is simply expecting too much, even at FB
Here are some names for you:
Taiwan Jones
Bilal Powell
R.Carmichael
C.Allen
J.Harper
D.House
You don't know them? Well, they barely saw the field and non of them started a game in the NFL (or is even close to it, most of these guys are the backup's backup, 3rd stringers)....those players were picked right after Marecic to close out the 4th round and I really liked some of them going into the draft....but when you select players at this point you simply can't expect too much of them in their rookie years
Looking at the 5th rounders...there are 7 who made an impact in their rookie year and started games at decent or better level and 1 of them is Pinkston (CB Sherman, LB KJ Wright, both SEA, DE McPhee - BAL, WR D.Moore -OAK, DL K.Klug - TEN and QB Yates - HOU)
Also, those raw late rounders are probably the biggest victims of the missed offseason as it gave the coaches less time to devote to developing them, having to concentrate to get their starters ready....we have to give Marecic an offseason with a S&T coach to get stronger and I think he will look much better next season
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I think it's unfair to compare a vet in his 6th season to a rookie...if anything compare them as rookies...and I know that everyone on here whined about Smith being gone and that rookie being trash....even FBs take some time and I've seen some stuff to develop with Marecic....he was thrown into cold water like other rooks on this team and he doesn't swim as good in it like a Sheard, Pinkston or Taylor....but again, those guys aren't the norm....me thinks guys around here underestimate the exceptional work by HEckert and the coaches to have those rooks playing at the level they're playing ...expecting a late 4th rounder to contribute at AVG NFL level is simply expecting too much, even at FB
What am I not understanding?
We had Vickers, he was a vet who understood the game and was a pretty darn good FB, he seemed to like it here, he wasn't expensive, he wasn't complaining, and he was one of the reasons we had one of the best running games we have had in a long time... we let him go.
Then we drafted Marecic and you want to make a host of excuses as to why he might be as good as Vickers in the future and why he is better than most other 4th round picks.
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Here are some names for you:
Taiwan Jones
Bilal Powell
R.Carmichael
C.Allen
J.Harper
D.House
You don't know them? Well, they barely saw the field and non of them started a game in the NFL (or is even close to it, most of these guys are the backup's backup, 3rd stringers)....those players were picked right after Marecic to close out the 4th round and I really liked some of them going into the draft....but when you select players at this point you simply can't expect too much of them in their rookie years
Just because he's playing doesn't mean he's good. How many third round QBs are named the undisputed starter in their second year? Does that mean Colt is good?
I like Heckert, I think that overall he's doing a pretty good job of building this team and I'm optimistic about the future but I think we let Vickers go and created a need where we didn't have one and then used a 4th round pick to fill that need when we could have used it elsewhere... and I think Phil's point is that the odds are slim that we were going to find a gem at some other position in that round but we didn't even get a chance to try.
yebat' Putin
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I think that Vickers was a big Mangini guy .........
I seem to recall him being upset that Mangini was fired when the media caught up to him immediately afterwards. He was definitely positive going forward from that point ...... but that may have hurt his chances of staying in Cleveland.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't think it was the most devastating mistake ever,
phil...so it's your opinion that Marecic has maxed out and will not get any better?
The jury is still out on Marecic and will be for another year or two. Then we can revisit this issue to see if your predictions hold up...fair enough?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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phil...so it's your opinion that Marecic has maxed out and will not get any better?
No, his point is that Marecic has to get better just to get to where Vickers already was....
I hope Marecic turns into Tom Rathman, I really do... but we created a need by letting Vickers go, we used a 4th round pick to fill that need, and now we are hoping that our 4th round pick can get to a point where he's as good as the guy we let go...
yebat' Putin
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I liked Vickers too and questioned the move but long term FB WAS a system need since the WCO prefers FBs with good hands and Marecic has MUCH better hands than Vickers
In the last 2 seasons with the Browns Vickers was targeted 27 times and caught 12 balls....Marecic 7 times and he caught 5
Also, Vickers was a FA, right? and he makes 1.5mil/season now in HOU for a blocking only FB...he probably demanded a little more if he stayed, let's say 2mil...that's a lot of cash for a FB and Marecic will make the minimum for 4 years....that's easily 1+mil/season in cap saved
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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In the last 2 seasons with the Browns Vickers was targeted 27 times and caught 12 balls....Marecic 7 times and he caught 5
dj...pass catching ability is probably the main reason Vickers was allowed to leave.
Those expecting a 4th round rookie (Marecic) to play at the same level as a 5 year vet...need to be a little more realistic when trying to make a comparison such as this.
Marecic will get better and will likely fit the needs of Shurmur's WCO much better than Vickers...that is why the Browns drafted him.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I'm not near the fan of Tom Terrific as you are ( jury still out ) ... The word I got from Groza place was a big time personality clash between the FO and Vickers .Guess who won ?  .. There are some very thinned skinned folks in charge out there.
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I'm all for giving Marecic more chances to prove himself. I didn't want to dump Vickers either but I understand the logic behind it - Marecic fits the scheme much better if he actually develops. My issue with it is that we had way too many holes to be creating another one and patching it in the draft. Nothing we can do about it now so while I disagree with Heckert for doing it in the first place, Marecic does fit the WCO.
We're... we're good?
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Quote:
I liked Vickers too and questioned the move but long term FB WAS a system need since the WCO prefers FBs with good hands and Marecic has MUCH better hands than Vickers
Because Marecic's college receiving numbers bear that out so well...  But those 17 receptions over his last two years of college are probably the result of playing with a bad QB, I'd guess.
It's pretty obvious that Vickers is gone because he was a Mangini guy, but our new WCO pass-catching fullback's career is probably going to be pretty short-lived if he keeps putting up nearly as many concussions as he does receptions.
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I know someone's going to come around and say that fullbacks don't matter in the grand scheme, and Vickers is overrated, etc. ...
... but, man, we blew a 4th round pick. Badly. When we needed all the help we could get.
How important was that 4th? Again, up for debate.
But with a team nearly void of talent, instead of working with our chips to acquire competent talent, we let competent talent go to draft ... Owen Marecic.
It's been said many times, many ways that Vickers was let go because of his inability to fit in with the WCO we installed ... it was said we need a pass catching FB.
Marecic: 5 catches 31 yards 6.2 avg 11 long
Vickers: 4 catches 29 yards 7.3 avg 17 long
In the grand scheme, did this set our franchise back significantly? Probably not.
But it was a dumb move. I've watched the Texans all year, and, man ... Vickers helps their run game.
This is a Chronic problem in our franchise letting solid talent walk.
Vickers is FAR superior as a blocker. ask Hillis.
wasting a selection a FB that could have gone DB, Ol, or LB chronic areas was horrible. we also wasted choices to move up and snag him I think.
I would have kept Roth and Eric Wright as well. made them solid offers to stay and at least acted like we wanted. them.
Dumping Wimbley for a #3 was another stupid short sighted decision. Imaging both Wimbley and Our rookie De rushing the passer. then I feel much better about the dline. yet this team is always letting talent walk and then paying premium for mediocrities like pashos and delhomme and other crumb dums.
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I've watched the Texans all year, and, man ... Vickers helps their run game.
If someone hasn't already said it I'll mention that those running backs (when not injured like ours) and that OL (who is as strong a run blocking OL as anyone) helped their running a bit too. Let's not give Vickers more credit than he deserves.
#gmstrong
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Vickers was the best blocking FB I' have ever seen. Akron Joe, DC and yes even Phill have made all the reasons we should have kept him. I bought into Management saying Maracic was the better receiver and we needed him for the WCO. It looks like this isn't true and all we did is hurt our running game. A blown Draftpick. We could have used that pick for a LB or something we really needed.
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I agree with your statement about how the Browns consistently get rid of solid talent. In some cases I'm not sure whether it has to do with the guy having a down year and not performing, attitude problems inside the locker room and with the coaching staff, contract issues, some kind of legal trouble, or god forbid some kind of dumb ass personal vendetta. We always seem to get rid of guys that have solid skills(ala Vickers, personally thought we got rid of Anthony Henry too early, E. Wright could have perhaps played nickel with Adams, saw the logic with dumping Winslow because of the knees but..., we got rid of Faine a tad too early, etc, etc, etc, and I could go on. Now its important to keep in mind that most of these changes happened separately in different regimes(ie. player evaluators and scouts who may have valued our players back then differently than our guys today). Not sure if the scouts or coaches just sucked or were looking at something else. The fact is that the team has gotten rid of talent in the past. Most of the time I can put my finger on why they did it but other times such as Vickers I just don't know. And for the staff to say Marecic was drafted to catch passes, be quicker, etc. is a bunch of crap. You're telling me Vickers didn't do a good job catching passes at the University of Colorado? The obvious idea is that when you get rid and excellent player you damn well better have someone that can take his place and do his job. If you don't have someone sufficient enough as Vickers or shows TRUE REAL PROMISE then don't even bother to replace him. My main beef is I just don't want them to toss Hillis aside like he's a pile of beans. Sit down with him and his agent and work things out. If talks were damaged in the past fix and mend them. I want Hillis here next year in our offense. The difference he makes in just being in our backfield is HUGE. I don't know what we're going to do in the draft as of now, but, could you imagine not picking Richardson and going into next year with the depth chart looking something like:  Hardesty Obie( I like the guy but I don't know if he can carry a load that big) Armond Smith? Brandon Jackson going to be healthy? I'm hoping that we can at least begin talks with Hillis or hear something about it...Maybe it will get done in the off season who knows...
Find what you love and let it kill you.
-Charles Bukowski
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We still have a decent chance of keeping Hillis, but it's much bigger than just desire.
In general, WAY too many people in Clevelandville overvalue Hillis. He's a limited, between-the-tackles runner who isn't dynamic by himself. That singular factor keeps him from being an elite player at his position. He's one of the best all-around backs in the league, as he can run, block, and catch, but he's not at the same level as guys like Foster, Shady McCoy, Forte, etc. He's also coming off a character year, an injury year, and the perception that he had a "one hit wonder" year, and even then it's widely accepted he wore down at the end of 2010. Even more troubling is the fact that he led the league in fumbles in 2010 by a WIDE margin. 9 fumbles by your lead running back is ATROCIOUS. That's Cleveland Gary bad. I know some would point at Tiki Barber as proof a player can change, but when giving a guy a HUGE contract, they aren't going to bank on something like that. They look at historical performance, and in that light, he's an atrocious fumbler.
If Hillis stays, he'll have to accept a smaller contract than the three wise-me...er....agents....  ...have advised him that he's worth. He's also going to have to accept that he hisn't going to get 350 touches a year.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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honestly...i highley doubt Hillis is coming back...He is stated on record pretty much that he had the uptmost respect for Mangini because Mangini believed in him and gave him a chance no one else would...Hillis was very much in Mangini's corner and he was not thrilled about us firing the guy...
Hillis doesn't fit here because our coach does not like to run the ball....
As much as it pains me to say this (because Hillis is one of my favorite players on this team we have had in a very long time)..Hillis is a moron if he resigns here...
He is a young guy with a good career ahead of him...he needs to go to a team that will actually hand him the ball and tote the rock 25+ times a game....thats not going to happen here under Shurm....Shurm wants to throw...
hillis deserves to be able to go somewhere where he can make use of his talents and make a difference, and that won;t be here under Shurmur..and I will still pull for Hillis because he is a great guy, and a good person....however...Hillis...if you even consider signing a contract here you need your head examined...
go to Ny Jets, KC, NE, or some team like that who has people in place that have actually heard of running the ball...you need to go to a team that has a run game philosphy...i personally think KC would be the perfect fit for him....and if Crennell gets a shot as the HC there(which i think he will due to his connections with Pioli, and him doing well the rest of the way out) Im sure Mangini will put in a good word with Romeo to give Hillis a shot...and Romeo loves to run the ball if he has a RB(See Jamal Lewis 2007)
thats what i would do if I were Hillis...if would be different if we had a system in place here that wanted to run the ball...but thats not the case...Shurmur and CO want a faster RB who can catch 60-70 balls and maybe only rush for 700 or so yards.....Hillis needs to go someplace where he is going to get his shot to go over 1100 or 1200 where a team will actually commit to running...that snot cleveland...and as much as it pains me to say it...Hillis needs to get out of here as soon as possible and go to a team that will actually use him....
Shurmur refused to run Stephen Jackson in a game 2 years ago with the division title on the line that cost the Rams a Division title and a playoff berth...yup leave Hillis as soon as you can...I wish you the best in a good career where you can go to a team that will actually showcase your talents because it won't be here in cleveland with this system.
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Heckart has made his share of dunce headed moves this season.
why in the world would you draft a FB who is project than sure thing?
Lawrence Vickers was one of the few players who played at a physical level on par with the Ravens and Steelers.
Funny how Vickers wasn't good enough for the Browns but the Texans sure did find a place for him.
Owen Marcenic could be replaced and nobody would miss him.
In this day and age,you don't have to draft a FB. You can sign a college FA.
Letting Vickers go and retaining Brian Robiskie(at the start of the season) and Tony Pashos is why I'm not sold on Heckart.
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This thread shows that many on here don't follow the draft process...Marecic was LOVED by every scout in the country. He played on offense and defense at a high level at Stanford and was considered a 100% football guy....willing physically AND mentally
Just like the young OL players he gets scapegoated around here WAY TOO MUCH for that holy cow of our QB
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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we still would have finished last with Vickers
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Even more troubling is the fact that he led the league in fumbles in 2010 by a WIDE margin. 9 fumbles by your lead running back is ATROCIOUS.
Love (most of) your posts, Toad, but lets not let hyperbole get the best of us. Hillis had 8 fumbles last year. Cedric Benson and Ahmad Bradshaw each had 7. Your "WIDE margin" is a whopping 1 fumble, and Bradshaw actually lost more of them than Hillis did (Benson lost the same number).
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This thread shows that many on here don't follow the draft process...Marecic was LOVED by every scout in the country.
Which shows how little all your draft "guru" guys know.
Marecic is a dime-a-dozen player.
Vickers is head and shoulders above him. No comparison.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
This thread shows that many on here don't follow the draft process...Marecic was LOVED by every scout in the country.
Which shows how little all your draft "guru" guys know.
Marecic is a dime-a-dozen player.
Vickers is head and shoulders above him. No comparison.
You're right.
There's no comparison.
Marecic is a Rookie.
Vickers is in his 6th season in the NFL.
You guys make me laugh.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Marecic was touted as the FB we needed for the WCO because he can catch a pass. This season he caught an outstanding 5 catches for 31 yards. While Vickers caught 4 for 29 yards. We threw away a better blocker who could have made our right side better and 4th round pick for 1 catch and 2 yards. WooHoo... 
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
A rookie who can't see the field because he can't stay healthy, and doesn't perform when he does get on the field. At the end of the day, Marecic was hailed as a guy who can block and who can catch. Thus far, he has shown that he doesn't do either of those things particularly well. He did play DB at Stanford...maybe we can use him in place of TJ Ward
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
TIM COUCH!!!!
That's who we miss.
Post #200,000 (for you Y'Town)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Congratulations. You win the grand prize ...... a no expense paid weekend with Tim Couch and Ben Gay.  Back to Vickers ..... I knew, and said, that he was gone when we went to the WCO. He's not a receiving threat at all, so he was no longer a fit. As far as Marecic ..... he seemed to take a while to get acclimated to the offense, and then he got hurt. I think that he'll be a help next year. I would still prefer Vickers, but I see huge value in a FB who can block damn near anyone. The new front office wants a more "rounded" guy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 825
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 825 |
Quote:
He's a limited, between-the-tackles runner who isn't dynamic by himself.
I seem to remember a pitch to Hillis on a sweep with Vickers blowing up DBs and LBs being a play we ran numerous times last year with great success, so I don't believe this statement is fair to Hillis.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
Even more troubling is the fact that he led the league in fumbles in 2010 by a WIDE margin. 9 fumbles by your lead running back is ATROCIOUS.
Love (most of) your posts, Toad, but lets not let hyperbole get the best of us. Hillis had 8 fumbles last year. Cedric Benson and Ahmad Bradshaw each had 7. Your "WIDE margin" is a whopping 1 fumble, and Bradshaw actually lost more of them than Hillis did (Benson lost the same number).
My mistake. Had looked it up last year and had recalled 9.
So, let's remove by a "wide" margin and just say he led the league in fumbles.
CribbsHero, singular examples aren't necessarily indicative of what a player can or cannot do. I'm sure we could run a sweep with Hillis 10 times, and he'd get a big gain at least once or twice, but when you look at a players skillset, he isn't a guy who is going to make his money running outside. His footspeed simply isn't that good. It shouldn't be at 250 pounds on a 6'2 frame. So, he more than many backs in the league requires holes to be opened by the line. He cannot create on his own.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum We Miss Vickers
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