DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Case For The Current Regime

Much has been said on here about continuity regarding the front office and coaching. I'm a big proponent of continuity. Many are all for it believing that giving a regime needed time to implement their plans would lead to success.

Others claim that continuity for continuity's sake is driving down a road to nowhere. If a regime is incompetent why give them more time when it's not going to bear fruit anyway. I agree with that too.

But I mostly agree that continuity is the only way for the team to grow into a contender and a contender is what we all want unless I'm mistaken.

So how do we know who deserves the time and with whom we need to cut bait? No one has looked good initially so how do we determine who might succeed if given the time. Have we actually given anyone enough time for time to tell or have we been forced into changing regimes due to ineptitude or lack of growth?


We now have cries to fire Holmgren and Shurmur. There’s even plenty of complaints regarding Tom Heckert. Well, it's understandable to a degree considering this team's bad record this year and it’s bad record with regimes in general. But are these guys that bad already?

If we take a look at our previous regimes we'll find something very similar in all of them in which this regime does not share.





Carman Policy, Dwight Clark & Chris Palmer.

These guy never had a chance. Palmer could have been a good coach under the right conditions. But the NFL pretty much screwed the Browns out of the gate with the short time frame alloted them to field a football team. On top of that, Carmen Policy paired him with Dwight Clark as GM and therein lay much of the downfall.

While Policy was a football man with much experience, he seemed more interested in his own press than the Browns building a football team. He cut ties with alum and tried to build his “New Browns”.

Clark had no qualifications to be a General Manager other than he'd played for the team from which Policy had just left. Clark's ineptitude was proven by his epic, horrible drafts and his propensity to sign former 49er players as a favor to Policy as a favor to the 49ers for him leaving them in such bad shape. That had nothing to do with what was good for the Browns. Neither did Clark's drafts. He completely blew it.

Palmer didn't have a chance in hell of improving this team and he was let go after two seasons. That created a stepping stone to rid ourselves of Dwight Clark the GM.






Carmen Policy, Butch Davis.

Great coach who managed to get it into his contract to only answer to Randy Lerner should Policy leave. As Butch was too strong for Policy it forced Policy to resign as team president leaving Lerner in that role. As Butch was too strong for Lerner too, he essentially answered to no one.

He was actually his own team president, his own GM and the coach. He brought in Pete Garcia who was his psudo GM with Butch calling all the shots. Great as a coach. Bad as a GM. Butch had too much power. Way too much on his plate and it was almost like a coach and GM who were not on the same page even though it was the same person.

Bad drafts by Butch the GM didn't help Butch the coach the least bit. Butch the president wasn't about to put a stop to it. In the end he suffered from a "nervous breakdown" and retired from is job. I still believe he was fired and used the "breakdown" thing as a cover it up. Regardless of how that went down, the downfall was once again a bad business model. Randy Lerner became determined to fix that business model.





Lerner studied the league and found, overwhelmingly, that the model of a team president residing over a general manager residing over a head coach was the right plan. It was the right plan but implemented wrongly. The "big three" were hired out of line, in the wrong order.




John Collins, Phil Savage, Romeo Crennel.

Team President/General Manager/Head Coach. That was the business model Lerner found was most used in the NFL to great success. So he emulated that and felt he had the best of the best for each position. His first mistake in his setting it up was that he hired the Head Coach himself and he hired him first. Out of line, wrong order.

By that move he saddled the GM with a head coach he didn’t want.

He then hired his GM in Phil Savage, an up and coming talent evaluator from the rival Baltimore Ravens.

Lerner then went on to hire a team president in John Collins who came highly endorsed by the NFL who, in my opinion, was trying to get rid of him. The mistake with that hiring was that Collins was a business man not a football man. That put a business man in charge of football operations.

The problems arose all too soon. There developed a power struggle between Collins and Savage. Collins thought Savage was not acting in the manner of a professional GM. It’s true that he wasn’t.

Savage did what he always did which was not being a GM and he wasn't about to be micro managed in that way by some “suit”. Savage was nearly fired if not for the outrage of the fans. (Remember that. Remember it because that time the fans voice played a part in who stays and who goes and it clearly played out as the wrong decision). The fans loved Savage because he seemed to be drafting well and because of his "strike early and big" in the free agent market.

It was later to be found that maybe he should have gone and Collins should have stayed. Besides his very unprofessional chat with a Bill's fan when he texted an expletive filled comment, his unprofessional manner in dealing with K2 and his display that he was also a power-hungry man who micro-managed Crennel. He forced changes in the coaching staff of Savage’s own choosing as well as threw RAC under the bus when things were not going well. Even though many of us thouoght they were on the same page in the beginning it was only a ruse.

Randy Lerner did not like what he'd seen off the field nor the record on the field and fired both of them after four years. Many use this as an example of giving time to a regime that didn't deserve it. There is some truth in that.





Lerner then went on to make one of his biggest mistakes of his ownership. Somehow he'd completely forgotten the lesson he’d learned about the business model. And didn't learn from the mistake he made with it the first time





Randy Lerner, George Kokinis, Eric Mangini

Eric Mangini was hired by Randy Lerner himself as he'd forgotten the business model he found to be successful all over the NFL and had even tried to implement with Collins, Savage and RAC which may have worked had he hired his team president and stood back.

But once again he reverted back to the realm of ignorance and once again hired the head coach first and once again made that hiring himself. I assume the previous regime stung him so bad that he decided to take action into his own hands but it was one helluva blunder.

Once bitten I suppose... Lerner took it upon himself to hire Eric Mangini and to allow Mangini to hire his own GM. So the new business model was the team owner acting as the team president with no prior football knowledge or experience, Kokinis as GM who was hired by the coach, and coach Mangini who, as mentioned, hired his own boss. (Where is the poke myself in the eye while choking on my own vomit smiley when I need one?)

The first thing that happened, and this was before the paint was dry on Kokinis's office door, was that he and Mangini had it out, (I'd still love to know the truth of that one), and Kokinis was gone. That left the coach as his own GM who had a team president who knew less about football than he did. (Again, the smiley, please!) Lerner, as team president had no idea how to handle such a debacle, completely of his own creation, that he finally buckled.




After an awful draft and a 1-11 start to the season Lerner snapped back into reality and decided he needed to re-implement the business model he discovered a few years ago and bring in a football man to the front of the team. Enter Mike Holmgren.




Mike Holmgren, Tom Heckert, Pat Shurmur

Lerner hired the team president first and stepped back. Good move.

He chose a proven leader with both vast experience and success. Holmgren is viewed across the league as one of the better football men in the business. Although he’d never been a team president Holmgren possessed all the football background and inter-office knowledge to meld into the position.

Holmgren then hired his GM in Tom Heckert, a football man with some years experience in the GM position with the Eagles, a team coached by one of Holmgren’s own protégés in Andy Reid. Heckert learned the team philosophy from Reid who in turn learned it from Holmgren who in turn learned it from Ron Wolf*.




*Ron Wolf is the man responsible for turning the Green Bay Packers from years of losing (5 winning records in 23 years, ’68-‘91), and being a laughing stock in the frozen tundra who nobody wanted to play for into a Super Bowl winner, (5 years after taking over), and perennial playoff team, (2 losing records, w/12 playoff seasons in in 19 years). http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/football/profootball/greenbayseason.html




What that did was put the two top men on the same philosophical page from day one.

Holmgren, who recently admitted it may have been a mistake, kept Eric Mangini as head coach for one more season. If it did nothing else it gave Holmgren a full season to settle into his presidency position and gave Heckert a full season to evaluate the team before making a head coaching decision. It also sent a message of fairness to potential coaching candidates that finishing strong deserved some merit.

At the end of the 2010 season Mangini was let go and Pat Shurmur was hired. Shurmur had 12 years NFL coaching experience being part of seven Philidelphia playoff teams, winning five division crowns and appearing in the Super Bowl.

January 21, 2009, Shurmur was hired by Steve Spagnuolo to be the offensive coordinator of the St. Louis Rams. (Spagnuolo served under Andy Reid from 1999-2006.)

He helped the Rams improve to a 7-9 record following a 1-15 season in 2009, the second-biggest turnaround in the league in 2010. He guided St. Louis’ offense to improvements in nearly every category including total yards, time of possession and third-down percentage, while they also scored 114 more points than the previous year.

Perhaps most importantly is that he learned his team philosophy from Andy Reid and in part from Spagnuolo who learned from Andy Reid who learned from Mike Holmgren.



That put Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur on the same philosophical page from day one.


Not once in the previous regimes since our return in 1999 have all the football positions been of the same philosophical position.

As indicated above, the thing all the previous regimes since our return in 1999 have in common that this regime does not share is that they all started right out of the gate as dysfunctional because they were not on the same page philosophically.

This set up the power struggles which can name all the following players: Carmin Policy, Dwight Clark, Butch Davis, Pete Garcia, John Collins, Phil Savage and Eric Mangini, George Kokinis. Each fine people in their own right all with experience and the ability to succeed. (Note that I left out Chris Palmer and RAC because I don't think either of those guys played a part in a power struggle. They were both too old and wise to get involved in such immature, franchise destroying crap.)

But the trouble for the Browns as a team is that those are four separate regimes that were destined to fail due to a bad business model, a reluctant owner to take charge at first sign of conflict or simply bad hiring because the hiring was done in a backward, upside down, opposite in manner by an owner who really had no business hiring anyone other than the team president. But most importantly all of those regimes were made up of people who each had their own philosophical bent that was different from those whom they were to work in harmony.

To use a musical analogy it would be like a quintet all playing the same song each in a different key at a different tempo. Any harmony would be accidental or contrived. To use a mechanical analogy it would be like having a square, round and triangle peg being forced into holes that are neither square, round nor triangle. To use a mathematical analogy it would be like 2 divided by 3 and expecting a whole number to be the sum.



In Summary

One paper at least, this regime is the only one since our return that is set up to succeed. All the players fit their roles.

Even though Holmgren has never been a team president before he certainly has the credentials that can lead to success in the position. He has his own philosophy in how to turn this team around and the philosophy has worked in the past.

Even though Heckert has never been a general manager in full title before he too certainly has the credentials and experience in the position. He shares Holmgren’s philosophy in how to turn this team around and it’s not simply lip service to Holmgren, it’s the way he learned to think the solution through.

Even though Shurmur has never been a head coach before he too has the credentials and experience with successful teams as well as playoffs and Superbowl and was instrumental in turning the Rams offense around as their offensive coordinator.

To help each of them succeed in their roles be sure that each of them have their mentors they’ve garnered from their past experiences. In addition Heckert has Holmgren and Shurmur has both Heckert and Holmgren. Since they are all of the same mind in the method of turning around the franchise they stand a pretty good chance of developing solutions for the issues that are currently in the way and those that arise in the future.

In addition, on the defensive side of the ball we have Dick Juron who is of the same philosophy as both Holmgren and Heckert. There's not likely to be a lot of bucking heads there either on philosophy and solutions going forward. And lets not forget Ray Rhodes on defense. He and Juron have both been head coaches before. Each one of them is qualified. The two together, who both share the same philosophy can only help the defense progress quicker.



The Same Old Browns

These are not the “same old Browns” as Holmgren got so angry about being said about this team in his press conference and I don’t blame him. What was being said in that comment is that this current regime is the same dysfunctional group of mis-match, power hungry, in-fighting, ne’er-do-wells that have run this franchise into the ground since our return in 1999. I’d have been pissed at that accusation myself if I were him. To be compared to those bungling fools of regimes past is a personal insult as well as a franchise insult. Don't come to me asking for extra play-off tickets indeed!

Personally I thought the Collins, Savage, Crennel regime was one on the same page who had the ability to turn this franchise around. What I didn’t know then is what it really meant to be on the same page. Collins was most interested in the image of business professionalism. Savage was most interested in targeting players for a system he was most familiar with but had the wrong coach to that type of player. Crennel was most interested in building a good football team by his own philosophy. Each of those guys went about doing their thing and it clashed. The only reason it lasted at all was through compromises. Compromises that was just enough to keep it together but not enough to win or make a real turnaround. In the end, by not being on the same page they all failed.

I’ve since read the book by Ron Wolf, “The Packer Way”. I suggest everyone read it. I bought mine used on amazon.com for under $3. I guarantee Holmgren, Andy Reid, Tom Heckert, Pat Shurmur and most of the Browns coaching staff have read it. I’d bet a month’s pay that it is required reading for all of them.

It explains the process and thinking involved in the turning around of the Packer franchise from 23 years of losing records to only 2 losing records and 12 playoff seasons in the next 19 years.

It’s not important that I understand everything in the book. Neither is it important that anyone on here understand anything in the book. What is important is that all the people in charge of the Cleveland Browns in this regime do understand it, have seen it in action, and have worked within it’s guidelines to great success and are implementing it’s plan with the Browns as they work towards turning this team around.

That major difference between this regime and all the others that have been here since our return is that of being on the same proven page, working on the same plan, completely understanding the thinking of each other, agreeing on the steps to be taken and working close with each other for the good of the franchise rather than individual goals is why this regime deserves the long-term “continuity” that all the regimes before them didn’t deserve.

Continuity for the sake of continuity is fools gold. Continuity for the sake of implementing a proven plan by a group of people who have all had success in that plan and are all in with that plan and are working on the same page in building a franchise that could have the possibility of stringing together 17 winning seasons, 12 playoff seasons, a superbowl after 5 years and another last season and maybe even another this year is worth looking into and supporting. Even when we don’t completely understand what they’re doing at a given time.

That same plan took the Seattle Seahawlks to the super bowl. Why would we be any different.

This whole thing is not meant to stop the criticism. It would be easier to stop the winter weather. Besides, what would many have to say if not negative hooey? It’s only meant to take a look at all the regimes we’ve had in place since our return and to see the real, vast difference between all of them and this current regime who actually has a unified plan.

Again, continuity for the sake of continuity is fools gold. Continuity for the sake of implementing a proven plan by a group of people who are all in with that plan and are working together on the same page in building a franchise into a perennial winner is something else altogether.

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I’ve since read the book by Ron Wolf, “The Packer Way”.

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Read it...Outstanding piece o' work...Always loved Wolf...

PATIENCE is a long lost art amongst sports fans in the Free Agency era...And it's PATHETIC...Ask Redskiners and Snyder...

Patience really is a virtue...Holmgren...Heckert...Shurmer...STAY THE COURSE...U got it...

BTW...U r the first person I've ever seen that understands something about STATS...U ALWAYS take the best run and the worst run and ELIMINATE them to get a TRUE average on any given day...That's GOSPEL...Glad someone else recognizes and understands that...

Bravo ddub ! Great and much needed post

As to what went on between Mangini-Kokinis....here's a hint...a MUST READ...enjoy

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/A-lesson-learned-in-Cleveland.html

Good thread!

I think next year will be the telling season. The fact is you should begin to see "tangible improvements" in year 3 of a program....and face it...this is year 3 of "holmgren's Program" it will be the 3rd year holmgren has been here.

If this team can't muster 7-8 wins next year, I think that will be it for Holmgren....if after 3 years, 3 drafts, and 3 free agency periods...if you cna't even get a .500 record or close...if your Lerner you have to cut baint and move on....

Now i personally am praying to the football gods that we can win atleast 7-10 games next year...im sick and tired of losing...i don't care if Mickey mouse is our coach or president at this point...i just want to win some stinking games...thats all i care about.

so I wish the very best of luck to holmgren, heckert, and co...I do think they will be very aggressive in Fa and i do thinkt they will draft impact players in this upcoming draft because holmgren and Heckert are not fools...they know they must show "something" next year or they are most likely fired....its just the way the NFL is...either you win games or your gone...Jerry Glanville said it best when he said: "The NFL stands for not for long" either you win...or your out..its just how it is.

I think Homgren and Co have plenty of room to move here to bring in some guys to help us...7 wins is not asking too much, neither is 8 wins....anything higher then that is a bonus...a 7 win season next year grants them more time...however this is put up or shutup time...either these guys show us tangible improvements or we will get someone else in here who can....thankfully i feel we will win 8 games next year as long as we bring in some playmakers...which we have the cash and draft picks to do so...

there really is no excuse for not getting atleast 7 wins next year....we have the cash and picks...make it happen

nice post, and i agree 100%

its time for us to have alittle patience....i think they got it right finally....now we just have to wait for the fruits of their labor to develop.

even though this year basically sucked i'm optimistic for the future of this team....i think lerner finally got it right.

yet the youngsters learn and grow....replace the ones that don't...draft well...develop talent....stay the friggen course

let these guys learn an entire system for once...let the game slow down....win

It makes me sad to think what could of happened had Butch's ego not been in the way and he had allowed Ron Wolf to work with him when it was suggested...

Hadn't read that one before.

I don't know what's more mind-boggling -- how far Mangini managed to set us back in so little time, or that there are still some people who think we made a mistake in cutting the guy loose.

As for the current regime ... Shurmur and Holmgren looked in over their heads this season. I was pleasantly surprised with the work Jauron did. He got a little too much credit throughout the season, but he did very well with what he had to work with.

Heckert needs to hit some home runs this offseason. I can live with another bad season of football, because I don't really have a choice, but I'd like to see us be competitive.

I lost interest in this season very early ... didn't take long until I was just kind of watching the games like someone half-heartedly attends church.

I really hope these guys work out. I'm not seeing much so far, but I'd love to be wrong.

Sometimes the truth hurts like hell..

Good job Ddub...

Nice recall.


I know I am one who complains about the current group, but I honestly don't want any change this year unless you are talking about a OC and possibly some upgrades at other coaching slots, like special teams.The reality is these guys will be here next season and the season after because we will show improvement.


It is important to establish a continuity and team identity that can only be created with time...creating "The Browns Way", if you will.

Now that the season is over, the growing pains have stopped and it is time for optimism.

We are going to land a couple of solid free agents, and we are going to have one of the all time best drafts.

Worst to First!!

With our disastrous hirings you pretty well make the case given time every regime before this one would have still made a hash of things. they were al in over their heads.
I have been hopeful of Holmgren and Heckert..until he hired Shurmur.
I had much more confidence in Rac, Butch or even Mangini in this guy.
The packer way? I will give you a packer book, When Pride still mattered about Vince Lombardi.
Shurmurs team is sloppy from start to finish. Given a peace offering of a new OC, I doubt Shurmur really turns over those duties so I am eager to see if it really happens. He is in over his head, any improvement in a division of talented titans will hardly be noticed. we are the worst team in the division in talent and by far the worst coached.

Patience and NFL just don't go together any more...

Patience got the Packers where they are.. Patience got the Steelers where they are..

This is why I don't want to trade the house for Luck.. doing that will set us back.

In addition, i think that this team isnt that far away...

There were only 2-3 games all year that we werent within a possession of a W at the end.

If bounces go the other way, we could have won:

Both Cincy games
Both Pittsburgh games
the Raiders game
the Rams game
the Arizona game
and the 2nd Ravens game


Thats 12 games that we did, or should have won...No of course we didnt win those games...but we couldve.

The 49ers, Titans, Texans, and and first Ravens game...well, gross...but there are some games where you just dont have a chance to win. If we add some pieces...we'll be there. You cant use the whole weak schedule thing because its an NFL schedule. We had a team that with a rookie coach, new system, no offseason, and questionable playing decision, and questionable play calling...and we still were in position to win 12 games...while winning 4.

Add in an offensive coordinator and an offseason and we have ourselves a delightfully good team.

The current regime has actually assembled talent that other teams would take...i cant remember the last time thats happened.

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stay the friggen course

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Shurmur couldn't have been put in a worst position as a first time head Coach trying to wear two hats, with a team he didn't even have a chance to get to become familiar with and without the benefit of the off season.

Heckert has also been put on the spot to not only steer the ship back on course, but he had to reconnoiter his coarse in order to change the defensive plan.
A much needed change or at the very least emphasis and that moved the offensive plan back, probably a full year.

We need to start to see some results this next season however, that's just the nature of the business I think today.

Explain where Pat Schurmur is a strength?

Nothing overtrumphs bad coaching.

great thread. very detailed and I think very fair assessments.

hopefully, people can understand that we at least have a solid plan in place and give it time to see if they can truly implement it.


then again, among the first few responses was:

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If this team can't muster 7-8 wins next year, I think that will be it for Holmgren....

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I'm with this current group, 100%. I have my questions and concerns, but overall I think the talk of getting rid of them, not so much by fans, but with media and radio hosts is laughable.

It's really hard to defend Pat Shurmur right now, and it's even harder to support him going forward on anything but faith, but that's exactly what I'm doing.

He's a young guy with a very young team, all of them have a lot of learning and growing to do.

While people dismiss the argument that the players didn't quit on him, simply because they are paid and aren't supposed to, that isn't the case around the league. Look what happened in Tampa and some of these other towns.

I think the guys believe in him. I hate that the media has a vendetta against him. Yes, he's not Vince Lombardi, and yes he's not perfect, but I do think he's deserving of another year at the very least. I think you couple the young team, his inexperience, everything that the lockout brought, and some of the tough breaks this team has had, and you can definitely make a decent case for him.

At least he aint Rex Ryan.

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I'm with this current group, 100%. I have my questions and concerns, but overall I think the talk of getting rid of them, not so much by fans, but with media and radio hosts is laughable.

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Fully agreed.

Too many people look at the wins and losses without taking into consideration the big picture.

The truth is that 2011 was the FIRST YEAR of this rebuild. We scrapped the 3-4 and went to the 4-3. We scrapped whatever in the Hell Daboll installed and went with the WCO. We had a few parts but mostly a bare cupboard with no QB, no healthy RB's, and not much at the WR position.

Anything that says these guys should go is knee-jerk in the worst fashion.

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It's really hard to defend Pat Shurmur right now, and it's even harder to support him going forward on anything but faith, but that's exactly what I'm doing.

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It's not actually that hard to defend Shurmur. All you have to do is ask one simple question:

Name the coaches in the NFL who could produce a winner with this roster?

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While people dismiss the argument that the players didn't quit on him, simply because they are paid and aren't supposed to, that isn't the case around the league. Look what happened in Tampa and some of these other towns.

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Exactly.

The players will tell you how well they respect their coach simply by how hard they play when there's nothing on the line. That cannot be dismissed no matter how loudly someone says it.

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I think the guys believe in him. I hate that the media has a vendetta against him. Yes, he's not Vince Lombardi, and yes he's not perfect, but I do think he's deserving of another year at the very least.

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The players do believe in him. We haven't heard even a peep to the contrary, and with how the media operates in today's NFL, if there was something out there, it'd be uncovered. They don't have a vendetta against Shurmur, they have a job to do, which unfortunately has nothing to do with reporting the news, but rather creating the news. To that end, when things are going bad, they drum up interest and sell newspapers by boiling people's blood, and the best way to do that is to go after the people in charge.

Now is Shurmur perfect? Nope, he's not. I've questioned many things, but I support him because he's a first-year guy who is a young, bright coach. If he was losing games with good talent, or if he was making mistakes after being a HC in this league for several seasons, it'd be a different story. But it's not a different story. It's reality.

This staff is going to add one more offensive coach, just like Holmgren wanted. The rest of the coaches are staying, as they should. For those that cry about lacking continuity, we're doing exactly that. If it doesn't work out, it won't be for the lack of continuity. It'll be because they guys calling the shots sucked, just like Butch Davis, just like Opie, just like Couch, just like Anderson, etc etc etc.

We're doing the right thing by staying the course.

No, I dont want a big mouthed moron!

I'll take a Tom Landry, Don Shula, George Allen, Vince Lombardi, Hank Stram or a good many others if I get to pick. Two AFC title games? We been there ourselves!

I've been a Shurmur defender here all season and think long term he'll be a success.

1. I would however like to see a young OC that has deep understanding of the philosphies of the WCO and one that would try and expand on the system for the purposes of running it in Cleveland with the talent we have and the talent type we intend on bringing here.

2. I'd like to take the playcalling duties away from the head coach. I don't like how that's set up ideally. There's so much going on and so many other responsibilities a HC has on game day. Play calling, while fun and mentally stimulating, lets other greater, meaningful duties fall by the wayside.

Rex is a good coach, I just think he needs to dial it down a bit. I do find it funny that everyone is jumping on him, but when they were winning, espn blowhards/jets fans like Mike Greenberg were gloating about how good he is and how every player in the league wanted to play for him.

I think the whole spending crazily in FA and going with a QB like Sanchez also played into them losing.

Shows why Heckert is doing it the way he is doing it. I think spending is fine, I want the Browns to spend, but not like the Jets have. Especially aging guys.

ddub...very good post, looking at the rebuilding of the Browns in terms of a long term process rather than a quick fix that might yield limited success that cannot be sustained.

"Patience" is something that many Browns fans lack, especially our younger fans, imo.

Another trait today's fans (and sports media) seem to have in abundance is this belief that they can do the job better than the coaches and front office personnel who have years/decades of experience in the NFL.

There is a reason some fans and media talking heads are considered "arm chair QBs" with 20/20 hindsight...because they are just no better than that...arm chair QBs, wannabes, fantasy footballers, amateurs with no experience in the NFL.

Too many times our fans, jump on their keyboard, filled with emotion and anger which only compounds the situation and they suddenly believe they are "professional whatevers"...tearing down our Browns and attacking the very people who are in the process of rebuilding this franchise, for the long term.

As Dawg in Dayton said, "Patience really is a virtue..."

All of us need to be more patient...the glass is half full !

I agree with ya Mac,, more patience is required.

that doesn't mean someone can't complain, but gees, I think I've had just about all I can stomach with the constant barage of Fire this guy or Fire that guy threads,

You need to stop with the holier than tho attitude.
You have patience,you have faith,good for you.
I hate to break the news to you,but we all root for one of the worse run franchises in professional sports.
No amount of hope and faith is going to change that.

so your saying your not sick of the Fire this guy and fire that guy threads that pop up every week?

They don't bother me,I don't read them.
By the way,some friendly advice,that ROFL icon that you persist on using after every post,makes you look foolish.

Well you got me.
It would be foolish for anyone to argue with such compelling logic.

I was going to make a comment about how "If you hate when he uses one... Just wait till he uses seven in a row.."

But then he decided to go and use eight...

I am tired of Dawgs complaining about other Dawgs complaining ! .. Make sense ? The Fans have not been the ones putting crap on the field ; They have continued to buy tickets and Team products .. Yes they complain after ten years of a bad product .. I say they have the right to ! ... As much as they want !

They are still going to support the Browns come hell or high water !.. I feel like Schumur understands that . Not to sure about Big Mike .. Now I Didn't understand the hire and didn't like the no OC with a freshman HC.. Water ( you like that ) over the bridge now.

We will hunker down in the off season and wait for the FA and Draft .. Then we can start Complaining all over again ..

Oh yea ; really tired of hearing about the WCO

Man! I hate when Dawgs complain about Dawgs complaining that other Dawgs complain!

If people dont like to read complaining its their right to complain about it! "It's a message board and all it is is opinion!"

hahaha...*sigh* good times

... you are a lunatic "

You heard about me in my drinking days !