|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Right now, according to what some are saying, we need to completely blow up the team again and start from scratch because "no QB can win with this team".
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545 |
How did I ignore that? Carolina is a classic study in the importance of a QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Quote:
How did I ignore that? Carolina is a classic study in the importance of a QB.
You forgot what you said about "once teams get a book on a qb"....etc.
Your forget that every team deals with injuries - although you use that to excuse the 6-10 record of the panthers.
You forget that the panthers didn't trade 3 freaking first round picks to get Newton.
You forget a lot of things - all depends on the subject you want to discuss. Your criteria changes from post to post. The only thing steady and consistent for you is "I hate Colt".
Like it or not, that's the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545 |
I didn;t forget anything. Newton has improved his game as the year has gone by,he has adjusted, The guy has scored 35 freakin' TDs this year. We scored 21 as a team.  I would happily trade 4 or 5 first round picks if i could get a guy who would show great promise for the future while still delivering 35 TDs as a rookie. I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
I would happily trade 4 or 5 first round picks if i could get a guy who would show great promise for the future while still delivering 35 TDs as a rookie.
I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Let me get this straight..You would trade 4 or 5 picks for 2 more wins?
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Since you're quoting it, I won't look it up - but, did Newton score 35 td's this year?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545 |
Quote:
Quote:
I would happily trade 4 or 5 first round picks if i could get a guy who would show great promise for the future while still delivering 35 TDs as a rookie.
I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Let me get this straight..You would trade 4 or 5 picks for 2 more wins?
I would trade for a QB who started out great and will continue to get better and better.
You are so hung up on win in an area he couldn't control. He improved his offense more than any other rookie QB iI can recall. If you have a better one, please let me know who it is.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545 |
Quote:
Since you're quoting it, I won't look it up - but, did Newton score 35 td's this year?
21 passing TD and 14 rushing TD.
That's 35.
Over 4000 yards passing. Over 700 yards rushing.
As a rookie without any training camp.
It's easy enough to look up here.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Since you're quoting it, I won't look it up - but, did Newton score 35 td's this year?
He threw for 21 and ran for 14
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Cool, I believe you.
What was the record again, for the team? Thanks in advance.
Exactly what did the team give up, in draft picks, to get him? Thanks in advance.
Or better yet - they got him for nothing but their plain old first round pick. Not trading 3 first rounders plus for him. Right?
He improved their team by 4 wins from the previous year? Wow.
Now, as per your criteria - teams weren't able to game plan for him since they didn't have film (at least, that's what you say about browns qb's - once teams get film on them, they're done). So, what's he going to do next year? This phenom of a qb (and I'm not dissing newton at all here).
You excuse the teams results because they had injuries. Got it.
Tell me again - would YOU have traded 3 first round picks for him, plus a second, and maybe more?
I wouldn't have. And IF they would have, they wouldn't have picks to get top draft talent this year, or next, right? Golly.
You yourself have stated that team needs help. Luckily for them, they didn't trade away 3 first rounders plus for him - otherwise - get this - they'd be screwed.
Do I need to draw a more direct line for you, or do you get it???????????????????????????????????????????
I have no problem taking a qb in the draft this year - but I would absolutely HATE to give up so many picks to get one.
Especially when qb's in the draft - "supposed all star qbs", come out every year. For the love of God - do you understand where I'm coming from?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would happily trade 4 or 5 first round picks if i could get a guy who would show great promise for the future while still delivering 35 TDs as a rookie.
I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Let me get this straight..You would trade 4 or 5 picks for 2 more wins?
I would trade for a QB who started out great and will continue to get better and better.
You are so hung up on win in an area he couldn't control. He improved his offense more than any other rookie QB iI can recall. If you have a better one, please let me know who it is.
I think that's the problem Arch has with you. Derek Anderson had 29 passing TD's in 07 or something like that. Would you give up 4 or 5 picks for him? I believe we had 10 wins but the D sucked.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
You do realize if we give up lets say, "3 firsts, and a 2nd" to move up to get Luck...
That this year we will still have 7 picks (Counting the #1 overall)
And next year we'll have rounds 2-7...
Oh yeah, theres also this talk of having a period where your able to sign players that aren't currently under contract every offseason... called "Free Agency"
So can we stop this RIDICULOUS notion that Trading up means were for some reason not allowed to aquire any other players ever again...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would happily trade 4 or 5 first round picks if i could get a guy who would show great promise for the future while still delivering 35 TDs as a rookie.
I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Let me get this straight..You would trade 4 or 5 picks for 2 more wins?
I would trade for a QB who started out great and will continue to get better and better.
You are so hung up on win in an area he couldn't control. He improved his offense more than any other rookie QB iI can recall. If you have a better one, please let me know who it is.
I think that's the problem Arch has with you. Derek Anderson had 29 passing TD's in 07 or something like that. Would you give up 4 or 5 picks for him? I believe we had 10 wins but the D sucked.
No I wouldn't.
The difference is that We had Anderson, and he had some serious issues that prevented him from being a high draft pick. he had some physical talent, and Savage brought him over from the Ravens. Even with his problems, he was still the best QB we have had since this team returned in 1999.
He had accuracy issues and problems reading a defense post snap that pe=revent him to this day from being a great QB.
There is a superficial comparison between Newton and Anderson, but it is very superficial.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816 |
Quote:
As a rookie without any training camp.
Not getting into the middle of this, but wanted to clarify some bad information...
Carolina started their training camp on July 29, 2011, it ran thru August 17, 2011. Cam signed his contract on July 29, 2011, so he missed 1 day of training camp, not 'all of it'.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545 |
Quote:
Exactly what did the team give up, in draft picks, to get him? Thanks in advance.
If you don't know what they gave up for him, then I would suggest that you go look it up for yourself. The internet isn't that difficult. I would suggest google if you have problems finding the information you want.
It's real simple.
Carolina invested in a QB and improved their offensive production in yards and points dramatically.
The Cleveland Browns decided to install Colt McCoy as the starter and we scored 13.8 PPG.
Yippee. Yea us.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would happily trade 4 or 5 first round picks if i could get a guy who would show great promise for the future while still delivering 35 TDs as a rookie.
I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Let me get this straight..You would trade 4 or 5 picks for 2 more wins?
I would trade for a QB who started out great and will continue to get better and better.
You are so hung up on win in an area he couldn't control. He improved his offense more than any other rookie QB iI can recall. If you have a better one, please let me know who it is.
I think that's the problem Arch has with you. Derek Anderson had 29 passing TD's in 07 or something like that. Would you give up 4 or 5 picks for him? I believe we had 10 wins but the D sucked.
No I wouldn't.
The difference is that We had Anderson, and he had some serious issues that prevented him from being a high draft pick. he had some physical talent, and Savage brought him over from the Ravens. Even with his problems, he was still the best QB we have had since this team returned in 1999.
He had accuracy issues and problems reading a defense post snap that pe=revent him to this day from being a great QB.
There is a superficial comparison between Newton and Anderson, but it is very superficial.
It's only Superficial if you want it to be. Manning threw 26 TD and 28 interceptions as a rook with 56% completion percentage. Sounds like he had DAitis? Would you trade 4 or 5 picks for Manning after his rookie year?
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Yes, I do realize that.
I still wouldn't give up 3 firsts and a second for a player. Sorry man, history prevails. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd be interested in how many #1 qb picks have resulted in all pro performers. (actually, not just qb picks).
Tell me that it's an 85% certainty, and I might trade 2 #1's, but even if it's a 95% certainty, I'm not trading 3 number 1's plus.
I'm not going to - but if someone cares to, I'd love to see the last 10 years worth of #1 draft picks and how they ended up. I'd also like to see a board of how many teams traded 2 - not 3, but 2 number one picks for a player, and how that ended up.
And while I may be wrong - I doubt it but I leave that open - I still wouldn't do that this year.
Look, EVERY single year we hear about a "can't miss" #1 player. Every year. And, more often than not, they miss.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
here's the last few #1 overall selections since 2000
2011 Cam Newton - looking good so far
2010 Sam Bradford - good rookie year, disappointing 2nd year
2009 Matt Stafford - looking good so far
2008 Jake Long - only LT who can even compare to Thomas
2007 JaMarcus Russell - did have a bunch of ?s but noone expected his fail to be that big
2006 Mario Williams - all-pro DE and transitioned well to 3-4 OLB before injury
2005 Alex Smith - ton of ?s on him predraft and he's somehow stayed in SF for 7 yrs
2004 Eli Manning technically though SD ended up with Rivers - both success
2003 Carson Palmer - successful before knee/shoulder injuries - got Bengals 1st and 2nd round picks from Raiders
2002 David Carr - expansion team - led NFL in sacks allowed
2001 Michael Vick - some huge highs, made ATL a ton of money, but the ending was pretty bad too. still, an overall successful pick.
2000 Courtney Brown - failure due to injuries as we all know.
Ok, 12 picks. last 2 are still in 'evaluation phase' so that's why I went back further to get to your 10 requested number. we'll leave them out.
of the 10, 4 have been failures (Brown, Carr, Smith, Russell). all other 6 have been among or at the best at their position.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
Derek Anderson had 29 passing TD's in 07 or something like that. Would you give up 4 or 5 picks for him? I believe we had 10 wins but the D sucked.
Derek Anderson was playing with a top-5 player at nearly every offensive position in 2007. Best offensive line in football. HoF-caliber running back behind the league's best run-blocking fullback. 16-TD WR. Top-3/4 pass-catching TE. Great veteran possession receiver. That offense was stacked, except for the QB.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,117
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,117 |
I like him as well, and maybe better. The Trey over Luck wouldn't hurt us. Either is a step up physically JMO 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Dang - didn't expect anyone to do it. While I was more interested on qb's - I believe your work needs mentioned. While 2 are still "under evaluation" - and that's the way it has to be - we're looking at a 60% record as far as first round, #1 picks.
Not hardly worth throwing 3 first rounders plus at, is it? A 60% chance of getting a good to better than good player. (I wouldn't call anyone on that list "better than good"......i.e. a stand out)
Long might be. Cam - I assume he's one you didn't include in the top 10 because it's too soon to tell. Stafford - probably.
But not a single person on that list stands out to me as a "trade 3 first rounders plus" for me kind of guy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
Quote:
Derek Anderson had 29 passing TD's in 07 or something like that. Would you give up 4 or 5 picks for him? I believe we had 10 wins but the D sucked.
Derek Anderson was playing with a top-5 player at nearly every offensive position in 2007. Best offensive line in football. HoF-caliber running back behind the league's best run-blocking fullback. 16-TD WR. Top-3/4 pass-catching TE. Great veteran possession receiver. That offense was stacked, except for the QB.
You have to discount the rest of the team. Did He make them a 6 win more team than the previous year or the players? He put up some Gaudy Numbers and was a Pro-Bowl Alternate. Then we go on to draft our first round QB that was Pro Ready and we got worse? All I know is we tried everything under the sun. So when we got Jeff Garcia coming off back to back 30 TD seasons(I believe) we should have been in the Super Bowl? How about taking The former 1st Rd pick in Trent Dilfer coming off a Super Bowl, we should have been better right? Bradford Should have made the Rams a Playoff team by now right? Is it the players or the QB? Would Bradford win 12-13 games in Indianapolis? Could Manning make the Rams a Super Bowl team? No One knows.. 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816 |
Quote:
Yes, I do realize that.
I still wouldn't give up 3 firsts and a second for a player. Sorry man, history prevails. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd be interested in how many #1 qb picks have resulted in all pro performers. (actually, not just qb picks).
Tell me that it's an 85% certainty, and I might trade 2 #1's, but even if it's a 95% certainty, I'm not trading 3 number 1's plus.
I'm not going to - but if someone cares to, I'd love to see the last 10 years worth of #1 draft picks and how they ended up. I'd also like to see a board of how many teams traded 2 - not 3, but 2 number one picks for a player, and how that ended up.
And while I may be wrong - I doubt it but I leave that open - I still wouldn't do that this year.
Look, EVERY single year we hear about a "can't miss" #1 player. Every year. And, more often than not, they miss.
Got me curious... (again not to get in the middle of this  ) 
Since 1999, our return as you all know I'm sure, there have been
37 TOTAL QB's taken in the 1st round.
10 taken #1 overall (Couch(1999), Vick(2001), Carr(2002), Palmer(2003), Eli Manning(2004), Alex Smith(2005), JaMarcus Russell(2007), Matt Stafford(2009), Sam Bradford(2010), and Cam Newton(2011))
Of all 37 taken in the 1st round I counted 19 to be considered 'Franchise QB's', and 'worthy' of such distinction (i.e. they were good and grew into a very competent QB that the team would not get rid of, for almost any reason (Vicks ordeal an exception - I counted him as franchise), not just in today's world, but in their time at the selecting team.
Those 19 are: McNabb, Vick, Palmer, Rottenburger, Rivers, E.Manning, Rodgers, Cutler (although traded, it wasn't cheaply given away, and Chicago considers him a franchise QB), Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Sanchez, Stafford, Tebow, Bradford, Ponder, Gabbert, Locker, Newton. Tebow I went back and forth on, but decided to include him since its only been 2 seasons.
Of the 10 QB's selected #1 overall six would get that same distinction ('franchise'); Newton, Bradford, Stafford, E.Manning, Palmer, Vick (due to contract he signed for sure).
So out of 1st round QB's taken since 1999 (37 total), 19 are 'franchise'. That is a 51.351% success rate.
Out of the 10 #1 overall QB's selected six are 'franchise'. Obviously 60% success rate.
Caveat number one:
Newton and Bradford, its too soon to tell honestly if they will continue their development and BE that franchise guy. Removing them from the equation, for sake of discussion, that is 4 out of 8 #1 overall QB's that people would consider 'franchise', in their time or currently (50%).
Caveat number two:
If you take out the last two draft classes (2010 and 2011) the numbers drop to 31 total taken in 1st round, 8 taken #1 overall and 13 'franchise', (a 41.935% success rate for all 1st round QB's). Of the 8 #1's overall, 4 are 'franchise' (50% success rate).
Question then becomes are those rates high enough to trade two or more years worth of picks for, when other holes exist?
I did not, nor do I plan to see how multiple traded picks for a QB worked out, that's too far for 'not my fight', and no pay.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,901
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,901 |
Quote:
The Cleveland Browns decided to install Colt McCoy as the starter and we scored 13.8 PPG.
Yippee. Yea us.
YT...I see you are one of the bunch that blame everything on Colt McCoy...yep, all McCoy's fault, right?
yt...you are aware that the Browns offense averaged 15.3 pts per game in 2009, before McCoy was drafted?
yt...you are aware that the Browns averaged 16.9 pts per game in 2010, when McCoy was a rookie?
yt...you are aware that in the 8 games that McCoy started at QB the Browns averaged 18.75 pts per game?
yt...you are aware that the 2011 season the Oline lost their starting LG and RT the last week of preseason?
yt...you are aware the Browns had no off season to install the new offense?
yt...you are aware, Hillis had the phantom hammy and sore throat and was but a shadow of himself in performance compared to 2010?
yt...you are aware, Shurmur was in over his head as a HC and OC?
yt...you are aware the Browns lead the NFL in dropped passes in 2011?
yt...BUT IN YOUR EYES, IT'S ALL McCOY'S FAULT, RIGHT?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 |
Wait, you're counting Tebow, Gabbert, Ponder, Sanchez and Locker as Franchise QBs?
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 01/04/12 08:34 PM.
~Lyuokdea
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,085
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,085 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would happily trade 4 or 5 first round picks if i could get a guy who would show great promise for the future while still delivering 35 TDs as a rookie.
I'd do that in a heartbeat.
Let me get this straight..You would trade 4 or 5 picks for 2 more wins?
I would trade for a QB who started out great and will continue to get better and better.
Then you don't want Payton Manning,, He sucked for a while then got better.. you want them to be good from the get go and continue to improve.. fine, but it's unrealistic.
As for whether or not another QB could win with this team,, as it stands, I don't believe it would be any great improvement.
we had no running game (for reasons that have been outlined) we had guys dropping balls all over the place. (hardesty,, 4 in one game for cryin out loud) and we let out QB get sacked far too often.
So yeah, put Rogers, Breez, Manning (either one) or Tom Brady on this team the way it is today, and you will have roughly the same result.
The two guys that would have stood a chance are Cam Newton and Tim Tebow. And Tebow is probably a question mark..
remember that age old question, if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound..
well, if a ball lands in a receivers hands and he drops it, is it the QB's fault?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Awesome research dude!!!! Kudo's for doing that.
It pans out about like I thought it would. In other words, no one else has traded 3 first round picks, plus a second...............and in more other words - it works out to be this supposed "franchise" qb less than half the time.
With all the holes we have................some people have been adamant that "do anything" to get Luck is the way to go.
I am of the opinion that if we can draft a qb for a first to first trade, with us throwing in a second round pick, do it. (that's to move up a whopping 1 to 3 picks by the way)
And I get called out?????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 816 |
Quote:
Wait, you're counting Tebow, Gabbert, Ponder, Sanchez and Locker as Franchise QBs?
I did in one set, in another I took Gabbert, Ponder, Locker. Newton, Bradford, and Tebow out, since its their first or 2nd year, and their TEAMS might consider them franchise QB's currently, and its 'too soon to tell'. The 3 year draft rule. 
I went back and forth on Tebow, I wouldn't want him as QB, but Denver might, they are in the playoffs and he has won quite a few games.
Sanchez, yes, but not convinced he really is, but other than this year they did get far in the playoffs with him. Going forward he might not be, probably isn't, but at this time I doubt the jets look for his replacement, short of the manning rumor coming true.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Ytown - I'm just gonna say it bluntly: You have been so adamant in the last month or 2 about Colt being the problem...........I have to confront you on it. Others have as well.
But every time you throw out this stat, or that stat - and others say "look at this" or that.....you change your criteria. It gets damn old, damn quick.
And you constantly cite other qb's, or teams...........yet you allow them the excuses, you even endorse their excuses............and the king of all kings, you want to trade 3 first round pick PLUS whatever else........in order to draft a "might be".
Seriously. It gets old.
Colt ain't what we thought - we ALL get that. But selliing the farm to get a might be? Come on.
Here: You have 4 kids, you and your wife. You have 5 vehicles........all old. Each of the 6 of you need a car to get to work. Is the wise decision to sell 3 of them in order to get a new one? That leaves you with with 3 vehicles, but one is a shiny new one.
Does that help your "team"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
You have to discount the rest of the team. Did He make them a 6 win more team than the previous year or the players? He put up some Gaudy Numbers and was a Pro-Bowl Alternate.
Why would you discount the rest of the team? Winslow was finally healthy, we drafted Joe Thomas, we signed Jamal Lewis and Eric Steinbach. We still had Hank Fraley and Joe Jurevicius from the year before. Ryan Tucker was healthy after his season-ending injury in 2006 and serving his 4-game suspension to start the season.
I did see Charlie Frye get sacked 5 times in a quarter and a half and then saw DA get sacked only 14 times in 15 and a half games.
Quote:
Then we go on to draft our first round QB that was Pro Ready and we got worse?
We drafted Quinn in 2007 and he didn't see starting time until midway through the 2008 season, which was a horrible, injury-plagued season.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
Quote:
You have to discount the rest of the team. Did He make them a 6 win more team than the previous year or the players? He put up some Gaudy Numbers and was a Pro-Bowl Alternate.
Why would you discount the rest of the team? Winslow was finally healthy, we drafted Joe Thomas, we signed Jamal Lewis and Eric Steinbach. We still had Hank Fraley and Joe Jurevicius from the year before. Ryan Tucker was healthy after his season-ending injury in 2006 and serving his 4-game suspension to start the season.
I did see Charlie Frye get sacked 5 times in a quarter and a half and then saw DA get sacked only 14 times in 15 and a half games.
Quote:
Then we go on to draft our first round QB that was Pro Ready and we got worse?
We drafted Quinn in 2007 and he didn't see starting time until midway through the 2008 season, which was a horrible, injury-plagued season.
Not directed at you, just general comments. So injuries and Personell does matter. I am lost on this now..(Not you) but I was under the impression that nothing else matters besides the QB. This is weird. 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You have to discount the rest of the team. Did He make them a 6 win more team than the previous year or the players? He put up some Gaudy Numbers and was a Pro-Bowl Alternate.
Why would you discount the rest of the team? Winslow was finally healthy, we drafted Joe Thomas, we signed Jamal Lewis and Eric Steinbach. We still had Hank Fraley and Joe Jurevicius from the year before. Ryan Tucker was healthy after his season-ending injury in 2006 and serving his 4-game suspension to start the season.
I did see Charlie Frye get sacked 5 times in a quarter and a half and then saw DA get sacked only 14 times in 15 and a half games.
Quote:
Then we go on to draft our first round QB that was Pro Ready and we got worse?
We drafted Quinn in 2007 and he didn't see starting time until midway through the 2008 season, which was a horrible, injury-plagued season.
Not directed at you, just general comments. So injuries and Personell does matter. I am lost on this now..(Not you) but I was under the impression that nothing else matters besides the QB. This is weird.
It does get quite confusing, doesn't it? Certain things only matter when certain agendas are considered. But those certain things change when faced with facts..............it's a never ending change.
Gotta do anything to get player x this year......and 2 years later, he's a bum, and we have to trade all our picks for the next 2 years to get player y, because, after all, we can fill the holes through free agency.........and all of a sudden, .......well..........
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I don't really see the confusion. If anything, I'd have figured that you'd be all over the comparison. Cam Newton is a good QB on an otherwise mediocre offense. Derek Anderson in 2007 was a bad QB on an otherwise very good QB. It certainly lends credence to the argument against putting a good QB in a bad offense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
It does get quite confusing, doesn't it? Certain things only matter when certain agendas are considered. But those certain things change when faced with facts..............it's a never ending change.
It sure is! Then Maybe if we were Healthy and had some decent players around the QB things would be different? I mean if 08 was a hard year, I think this year trumped it. It was a difference of 6 games then maybe if we didn't have all the adversity of the off season, a brand new Coach and Offense, The Hillis Saga and all the injuries we could have won 7 more games?
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,844 |
Quote:
I don't really see the confusion. If anything, I'd have figured that you'd be all over the comparison. Cam Newton is a good QB on an otherwise mediocre offense. Derek Anderson in 2007 was a bad QB on an otherwise very good QB. It certainly lends credence to the argument against putting a good QB in a bad offense.
I'm not following here. First, I think you might have made a typo when you say da was a bad qb on an otherwise very good "qb"? Or did you mean team?
Secondly, da had good players with him. Would you disagree?
Thirdly - why is da in this discussion?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,531 |
j/c
The Browns have been trying to get by with a bunch of Ramon Sessions-like players at point guard for years.
It's time the Browns draft their Kyrie Irving.
Last edited by Ammo; 01/05/12 10:22 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
j/c
The Browns have been trying to get by with a bunch of Ramon Sessions-like players at point guard for years.
It's time the Browns draft their Kyrie Irving.
They tried that too. Thus Tim Couch and Baby Quinn aka "The Golden Boy".
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
thank you sir for putting in this work. personally, I would go for these as the numbers to work from for now: Quote:
Caveat number two:
If you take out the last two draft classes (2010 and 2011) the numbers drop to 31 total taken in 1st round, 8 taken #1 overall and 13 'franchise', (a 41.935% success rate for all 1st round QB's). Of the 8 #1's overall, 4 are 'franchise' (50% success rate).
I'd probably remove one from the success side though as I have never thought Sanchez was in that category (even during the last 2 playoff years)
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Cam Newton is a good QB on an otherwise mediocre offense.
Steve Smith, DeAngelo Williams, Jonathon Stewart, Jeremy Shockey.. this is not a mediocre offense. This is a team that, with roughly the same personnel, won 12 games a couple years before drafting Cam and was the #7 scoring team in the NFL... they got rid of Jake, suffered through a horrible year in which they started about 4 different guys because of injury and ineptitude and drafted Cam Newton.. So it's unusual for being drafted first, but Newton came into a much better situation than Dalton, Ponder or Gabbert who were taken later...
Also, and nobody that keeps referencing Cam Newton has answered this question, do we want a QB that runs the ball 130 times? Do we want a QB who runs for 700 yards? How many 3 or 4 game seasons is Cam Newton going to have if he keeps trying to do that?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
if we have a guy built like Cam or Tebow that is also good at avoiding direct hits because of their athleticism, then why not?
(obviously want someone who can throw better than Tebow - but both of these guys got through the season unscathed while pocket-passers were going down with injuries left and right)
#gmstrong
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) The Quarterback Thread
|
|
