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GB can always cut him and don't have to pay a dime. Contracts aren't guaranteed, only bonus money.
I'm not sure that's accurate for Franchise Tagged players.. I mean, unless they tag him then pull the tag, I'd think they are stuck paying the tab. I also can't see them tagging him and then cutting him.. what value would that have? not sure I get that.
Maybe you're right. I know the cap number wouldn't adjust down, but I do think they can cut him and not pay real money.
Even so, say your right, which you and Adam could very well be, what kind of odds do you place on Flynn not getting offers all over the place? Or him not signing??
I'd say pretty slim on both accounts.
First let me be clear, I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying that I'm not sure you have it right... a subtle difference.
What I "THINK" is that if you tag a guy, the team is on the hook for that amount of money.. end of story. It's supposed to be a one year guaranteed deal. Which on it's face explains why players don't like the tag.. there is no security beyond that one year. they get hurt, it's over, no more paydays from any team possibly or maybe even likely.
The question I have is, can a team tag a guy then pull the tag back? if they can, then I wonder, if they pull the tag back on one guy, can they then turnaround and use it on another guy?
Example.. GB tags Flynn, then pulls it back, can they then Tag Finley?
Next question: If they tag Flynn, can they trade him while he's under thier tag? Is there any rule that anyone is aware of that disallows tagged players to be traded? I'm strictly speaking of the Franchise tag here.
Then if he's traded, do they get the tag back to use on another player?
I really don't know how this works at all. Very confused.. But the good news is, it's not my job so I can't really make any mistakes that cause harm 
I just thought of something,, I have a contact in the league office that from time to time has provided me with information about specifics on any number of topics.
I think I'll ask him. if he responds, I'll share the answer.
#GMSTRONG
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ok, found an article that goes over the 2012 situations a bit: http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/...ning-questions/also a HUGE reason why we may have not spent in FA last year is highlighted in this article: Quote:
What happens to all that unspent Cap room?
The new CBA allows teams to carry forward unused Cap room. Thus, some teams will be bringing over $20 million of 2011 Cap room with them into 2012, adjusting their Cap upwards by that amount
First I have seen this reported. But, it gives us a huge advantage if we can add the clsoe to $40mil we had in cap room to this years budget.
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"If a club withdraws their offered contract the player immediately reverts to an unrestricted free agent." I don't know why a team would withdraw their tag, if they thought that the player was worthy of being tagged in the first place. Let's face it it's only one year, but we are talking about a sizable amount of money. On a backup QB  And Cassel was a basically a starter for NE after Tom Brady went down his status was that of a starting QB, this is not the case with Matt Flynn, so that is I think a different debate and also I remember the League bing skeptical of that deal that sent him to KC. Still the burden of prof is on the League. As far as getting the tag back if the club withdraws their offer. Good question. It doesn't really cover all of the fine print that is written into the CBA (book) in wiki or I missed it.
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I am pretty confident that a franchised player can only be traded if he signs the tag tender.
I think that teams are permitted to apply only one tag per league year, so I don't think they could tag a player, trade him and them tag another player. I don't know if they are permitted to tag a player if they've tagged another player but rescinded the tag. Good question.
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They'd rescind it if the player refuses to sign and they can't work out a trade.
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WOW No Lo,,, Good read. I had no idea that teams couldl stack up unused Cap dollars for future use.. Cool.. I could see why the Browns wouldn't discuss that if the plan is to make a splash at some point. No need to tip thier hand I guess. As for Flynn.. This answers some of the questions.. Quote:
Flynn
How much money did Matt Flynn make with his play against the Lions?
Hard to say, although Flynn’s market value will be determined long after the glow of Sunday’s win has worn off. And the mixed results on recent contracts given to quarterbacks with a small sample size, though larger than Flynn’s – see Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kevin Kolb – will be discussed around NFL front offices. Both players were given guarantees in the $20 million range. But again, too soon to tell.
Could the Packers place the Franchise Tag on Flynn and trade him?
They could, but I doubt they will. The one-year tender offer amount of roughly $14.5 million – Aaron Rodgers is scheduled to make $8 million – would immediately become guaranteed were Flynn to sign it. In that event, the Packers would be on the hook for that amount pending a trade, giving Flynn enormous leverage with a trade and/or a new contract.
Further, the Packers have been in negotiations with tight end Jermichael Finley on a new contract, using a relatively low potential Tag number of $5.4 million on Finley as their leverage. They would certainly like to keep that option available.
Finally, the Tag is meant to “reward” players with intent to sign rather than use as a placeholder while trying to trade the player. The NFLPA is keeping a watchful eye on these scenarios.
My sense is the Packers will not use this tool to hold Flynn in place. But, as always, stay tuned
sounds like that answers one of my questions, you can tag a player then trade him., It doesn't answer the other question which is, if you tag a guy and trade him, can you then apply that tag to a different player?
#GMSTRONG
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one more interesting note on the franchise tag.
if GB franchises Finley, they will try to do it as a TE (~$4-5mil). Finley wants to be thought of on a WR line (~$8-9mil). GB loses a healthy amount of negotiating power if they do not tag him as they lose that potential hammer.
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To be honest, I never have believed that GB would franchise Flynn.. The money not withstanding, as you point out, he's a back up QB. Maybe a good one, or, maybe he looked good because he's playing with a group of guys that are amazingly talented (it's a chicken/egg thing)
One thing it does say for sure is that if you put Flynn on a team with lots of very well coached, very talented players, he can win. Kinda leaves us on the outside looking in doesn't it...LOL (I'm confident that that is temporary however)
I think we are gonna find out PDQ what some NFL Teams feel about that.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
one more interesting note on the franchise tag.
if GB franchises Finley, they will try to do it as a TE (~$4-5mil). Finley wants to be thought of on a WR line (~$8-9mil). GB loses a healthy amount of negotiating power if they do not tag him as they lose that potential hammer.
I found this article while surfing;
The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel suggests the Packers placing the franchise tag on impending free agent Matt Flynn is a realistic possibility, with the intent being to trade Flynn after he signs the one-year tender.
The one-year tender will be worth over $14 million and is fully guaranteed, so GM Ted Thompson would be taking a salary-cap risk by tagging Flynn. He'd also risk losing fellow impending free agent Jermichael Finley. It's interesting to note that one NFL agent who has represented a franchise player estimated Green Bay "could get a first-round pick at the minimum" and "maybe first- and third-round picks" for Flynn because of the need for quarterbacks around the NFL. Jan. 3 - 8:55 am et
Source: Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel
web page
I am not a lawyer, but isn't a tag and trade corrosion? By circumventing the rules.
79?
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 01/06/12 01:52 PM.
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Very good article. I bookmarked it. Also in there: Quote:
For 2011 and 2012, the minimums are based on league-wide spending. Team minimums do not apply until 2013.
So the salary floor doesn't apply till next off-season.
On trading Peyton Manning:
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You mean they can’t trade Peyton?
No. Manning is due a $28 million option bonus due five days prior to the start of the 2012 League Year, on March 8th. The start of the 2012 League Year and trading is March 13th. Thus, the Colts have to either pay Manning $28 million – which means they will keep him for the foreseeable future – or not pay him, which means he will become a free agent available to sign with any team.
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I am not a lawyer, but isn't a tag and trade corrosion?
I don't know what a trade has to do with running water...
But it may be Collusion...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
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I am not a lawyer, but isn't a tag and trade corrosion?
I don't know what a trade has to do with running water...
But it may be Collusion...
LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Maybe a good one, or, maybe he looked good because he's playing with a group of guys that are amazingly talented (it's a chicken/egg thing)
Could very well be that the WRs elevated the play of the QB, although many on here (not saying you're one of them) would say that doesn't happen. 
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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And those people would be ignoring our own history, because receivers elevating the QB is EXACTLY what happened in 2007.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
And those people would be ignoring our own history, because receivers elevating the QB is EXACTLY what happened in 2007.
They ingore any history that might counter their agenda.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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They ingore any history that might counter their agenda.
What!?!?!? On here? No. Who would do such a thing?
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They'd rescind it if the player refuses to sign and they can't work out a trade.
You can't trade a player not under contract to my knowledge.
The player must sign or his only option is to holdout and get squat.
A franchised player really has little leverage.
I can understand a team receding their tag, if it appears that the player will likely hold out (netting them nothing in return), but a team should have already have weighed and factored that in their decision to tag him in the first place.
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And those people would be ignoring our own history, because receivers elevating the QB is EXACTLY what happened in 2007.
Yeah, how'd that work out for 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011?
you had a good run Hank.
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They could work out a trade and then the franchised player would sign the tag with the understanding that he'd be getting traded to and signing a long-term deal with the new team.
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And those people would be ignoring our own history, because receivers elevating the QB is EXACTLY what happened in 2007.
Yeah, how'd that work out for 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011?
2008 - Braylon fell of in production, JJ was injured, KW2 missed games and his production was down as well.
2009 - JJ gone, KW2 gone, Braylon traded in oct.
2010 - 2012 - Worst WR corp in the NFL.
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haha...too many good QB's on our roster. Wouldnt that be a good problem to actually have.
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Edwards had 1289 yards in 2007.
His next highest was 904 in 2010. He caught 16 TD passes in 2007. he has caught a combined 23 the rest of his career.
Winslow went for 1106 yards in 2007. He hasn't gone over 900 yards in any other year of his career. He caught 5 TD passes that year, and has reached that rather modest high 2 other times in his career.
Neither one of these guys has gone on to "make" another QB anywhere else. DA made them, and once teams got a book on how to stop him, they were all done.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
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Maybe a good one, or, maybe he looked good because he's playing with a group of guys that are amazingly talented (it's a chicken/egg thing)
Could very well be that the WRs elevated the play of the QB, although many on here (not saying you're one of them) would say that doesn't happen.
I'm not one that says that.. But there is some truth to it also. Truth be told,, If you got Manning back there and nobody the balls are being dropped, is it manning that's the problem? No. But now put some quality receivers (don't even have to the world beaters) and have manning put it in thier hands.. AND THEY HOLD ON TO IT.. Boom. Done deal, you have a winner.
Somehow, that gets twisted around by some that think a Payton Manning type QB would suddenly turn us in to some kinda contender... yeah,, right
#GMSTRONG
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DA made them, and once teams got a book on how to stop him, they were all done.
Absolutely 10000000000000% agree.
DA got on a hot streak and made the WR'ers look like a million dollars.
If the WR'ers were so good, why did DA suck next year.
BTW, I'm still pissed at savage for re-signing DA. What a stupid move, especially when Dallas was reportedly looking to get him. 
you had a good run Hank.
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Somehow, that gets twisted around by some that think a Payton Manning type QB would suddenly turn us in to some kinda contender... yeah,, right
I believe a healthy Peyton Manning, at worst, could have lead this team to 7 or 8 wins this year.
you had a good run Hank.
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Somehow, that gets twisted around by some that think a Payton Manning type QB would suddenly turn us in to some kinda contender... yeah,, right
I believe a healthy Peyton Manning, at worst, could have lead this team to 7 or 8 wins this year.
Easily.
We "almost" won 2 other games with McCoy at QB. A Manning would have put distance between us and the opponent in those games, giving us 2 wins right away.
Peyton manning would not have staggered in the 1st Bengals game against the (im)famous Bruce Gradkowski. That puts us at 7.
We lost to Arizona 20-17 in OT. With Manning, this is a win going away.
That's 8 right there ... and pretty easily.
I also think that we would have beaten Pittsburgh in the final game of the season with a Manning at QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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And those people would be ignoring our own history, because receivers elevating the QB is EXACTLY what happened in 2007.
Yeah, how'd that work out for 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011?
Well, it proves Purps point. The QB was the same in 2008, so were many of the receivers and they didn't save the QB's butt in 08... look at the result.
as for 09,10,11.. No receivers of note and every single QB we've thrown out there has not done well.. (statistically speaking)
That right there should prove that it's NOT ALWAYS THE QB and getting a STUD, won't automatically fix all that ails us.
Which by the way is why I think it's a mistake to use a bunch of our high picks this year and next to try and move up to get either of the two top QB's this year in the draft.
with that thought, if you can get Flynn by just putting up some money for him,, that's the answer. if he doesn't work out, so what, it's only money. Not something that we don't have plenty of and not something that will hamper this franchise for the next 2 or 3 or more years.
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They could work out a trade and then the franchised player would sign the tag with the understanding that he'd be getting traded to and signing a long-term deal with the new team.
So then he is still forced to sign the offer (tag) in that scenario, because no trade can be made until they obtain his rights.
I still don't see GB doing this, with the risk of having to pay Flynn nearly twice as much as Rodgers will make in 2012 and also leave open the possibility of losing their TE and Rodgers security blanket.
In short I think that we are wasting far too much energy on what is probably a moot point. Witch is so typical of us. 
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And those people would be ignoring our own history, because receivers elevating the QB is EXACTLY what happened in 2007.
Yeah, how'd that work out for 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011?
Well, it proves Purps point. The QB was the same in 2008, so were many of the receivers and they didn't save the QB's butt in 08... look at the result.
as for 09,10,11.. No receivers of note and every single QB we've thrown out there has not done well.. (statistically speaking)
That right there should prove that it's NOT ALWAYS THE QB and getting a STUD, won't automatically fix all that ails us.
Which by the way is why I think it's a mistake to use a bunch of our high picks this year and next to try and move up to get either of the two top QB's this year in the draft.
with that thought, if you can get Flynn by just putting up some money for him,, that's the answer. if he doesn't work out, so what, it's only money. Not something that we don't have plenty of and not something that will hamper this franchise for the next 2 or 3 or more years.
So if a WR can save a QB's butt one season, but cannot the next, why the hell should we build a team that way? So we can have one good year then suck again?
There is no WR in the history of the NFL that a team can be built around. There is also no situation where a QB was made by a WR for his entire career. Now a great supporting cast can make a decent QB good, or a good QB great, or a great QB elite.
The theory that we can somehow make an average to below average kid this great/elite QB is a fallacy. Same thing with making a below average to average WR into a great/elite WR.
We need real talent at both spots. Stop messing around and experimenting.
you had a good run Hank.
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And perhaps 2007 was just one of those perfect storm years where things worked right against a weak schedule, and the same factors never lined up the same way for any of the players involved every again.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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. DA made them,
Oh, now I *KNOW* you are seriously smoking some stuff. Seriously delusional, mind-altering stuff.
DA couldn't make brownies, much less a receiver. He was bailed out CONSTANTLY by Edwards, Winslow and JJ. Period, not even debatable.
If not for those three constantly making freak-show catches, DA's career would have been a still-birth.
The fact that he couldn't make a short throw to save his life is immaterial... that fault existed both early and late in the season. The fact that it took the rest of the NFL half the season to realize that all they had to do was defend deep doesn't mean anything except that it made their lives a helluva easier in stopping the 3 receivers.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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And perhaps 2007 was just one of those perfect storm years where things worked right against a weak schedule, and the same factors never lined up the same way for any of the players involved every again.
Are you seriosly still thinking that a QB can make these receivers into something they aren't... Are you still shoveling that pile of poo at us and expecting people to believe... Geesh Ytown.. 
#GMSTRONG
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When have either Winslow or Edwards matched the year they had in 2007?
Both went on to play with better teams and better QBs. When have they even come close to matching what they accomplished that year?
Answer: They haven't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think you're missing the point that took us here.... the suggestion was that perhaps Flynn's astounding performance against the Lions was less Flynn and more the fact that all of his WR's have been rocking this system all year long and just needed an arm that can get them the ball.
e.g. it was offering another perspective on the performance that has everyone breathing heavy over Flynn.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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DA couldn't make brownies, much less a receiver. He was bailed out CONSTANTLY by Edwards, Winslow and JJ. Period, not even debatable.
If not for those three constantly making freak-show catches, DA's career would have been a still-birth.
They had a symbiotic relationship, at worst. DA was putting the ball in spots where they could make the catch and DA had the arm to get it there.
Either way, building an offense around WR'ers and TE's has proven to be a stupid way to build a team.
you had a good run Hank.
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Edwards had 1289 yards in 2007.
His next highest was 904 in 2010. He caught 16 TD passes in 2007. he has caught a combined 23 the rest of his career.
Winslow went for 1106 yards in 2007. He hasn't gone over 900 yards in any other year of his career. He caught 5 TD passes that year, and has reached that rather modest high 2 other times in his career.
Neither one of these guys has gone on to "make" another QB anywhere else. DA made them, and once teams got a book on how to stop him, they were all done.
Wow, this myopic vision of "it's all one thing or the other" is just unreal... Edwards and Winslow both caught a lot of balls that year that were very poorly thrown. Winslow caught a ton of balls just as he was getting his clock cleaned. Edwards dropped some easy ones but made some "jump ball circus catches" that bailed DA out regularly... and if I remember correctly, Josh Cribbs had a career year as a return guy and we started with great field position quite a bit.
We had a freakishly easy schedule that year and this was also Chuds first year as our OC, maybe defenses got a book on HIM as much as they did on DA.. (which is one of the reasons that Carolina will be interesting to watch next year)...
So neither one has gone on to make another QB, but combined.. and with a healthy JJ and a healthy Jamal Lewis, and a fresh new OC....
You can talk until you are blue in the face, and I've seen your posts I know you will, but it takes a lot more factors than just DA getting "hot" to go from 4-12 to 10-6 and back to 4-12...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Quote:
I think you're missing the point that took us here.... the suggestion was that perhaps Flynn's astounding performance against the Lions was less Flynn and more the fact that all of his WR's have been rocking this system all year long and just needed an arm that can get them the ball.
e.g. it was offering another perspective on the performance that has everyone breathing heavy over Flynn.
I think it's pretty easy to say why Flynn had such a good day:
No one knew what he was like or what he was capable of. At best, Flynn showed that he could read a defense and beat a basic defense. Not sure why people have been falling over themselves for Flynn.
you had a good run Hank.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,180
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,180 |
Quote:
DA was putting the ball in spots where they could make the catch
Seriously, that is a VERY generous description of what DA was doing.
He sprayed the ball all over the place; our guys were just damned good at going after it. Edwards was focusing and Winslow was Winslow... ditto JJ.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Matt Flynn? Hmm...continued.
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