Quote: With the same picks we could have had Clay Matthews, Ray Maulaluga, LeSean McCoy, Phil Loadholt and Brian Hartline...
Would you trade that for Matt Stafford?
If that's best case...and I probably still would do that trade since the only valuable pieces would be Matthews and McCoy...a franchise QB is worth more than a good RB and premier pass rusher...and they usually have longer careers...the other 3 are AVG or worse starters...merely complementary players
The 1 constant in both trade scenarios is Stafford...and since he looks like a pretty decent franchise QB he has tremendous value...1 thing is for sure...the owner of Matthews/McCoy etc would think about the scenario A LOT LONGER than the Stafford owner in the Mack/Massa deal...and you picked your best case of those 4 picks....that'll never happen, no GM is THAT perfect hitting all picks...our ACTUAL 09 is a lot closer to reality
I'm pretty sure the same guys that lament a possible uptrade for Luck would have gone ALL BANANAS if we moved from 5 to 1 to get Stafford and gave up all those "valuable" picks
Since our rebirth we've had good RB, WR, TE, OL play here and there, for a season or 2...same with DL, LB and (now) CB play....the 1 big constant since then has been BAD QB PLAY....maybe, just maybe that is our problem that needs to be fixed
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: So what you're saying is...you NEVER want to trade up for a player...EVER. Because they're always a "might be". Ok, got it.
This whole discussion reminds me of the old joke where the guy asks the woman, "Would you have sex with me for $2 million?" and the woman looks him over and says, "Well sure." So the guy says, "Would you have sex with me for $50?" and the indignant woman responds, "No way, what kind of girl do you think I am?" and the guy says, "We already established that, now we are just haggling over the price."
I don't think there is a person that has posted that wouldn't love to have Andrew Luck in a Browns uniform next year.. it has now been reduced to a ******ing contest over how much that is worth... and people have different opinions.
My own personal opinion is somewhere between those who would pay very little and those who would sell out most of this year and next year's drafts.
I happen to think that with a full offseason for everybody including the coaches, a healthy refocused Hillis, a healthy Steinbach, a reasonable upgrade at RT, possibly some depth at OL (and that's not touching the WRs) that... with the right QB, this is a 8-9 win team almost immediately...
If (and it's a big IF) Matt Flynn is the guy and is as good as some people think he is, who already has some NFL experience.. then you add Justin Blackmon, this is better than an 8-9 win team...
Compare the first video with this one and you can see how much improvement this kid made in one year. There is a reason Mike Sherman raves about how coachable this kid is.
Sign Flynn for five years, $35-$40M. Trade back with whoever loses out on RG3 (Indy's taking Luck) and pick up an extra No. 2. Take Richardson with 1A and Wright/Floyd/Jeffery?Sanu with 1B. Tannehill with 2A and he is third string behind Flynn and McCoy in year one. RT with 2B. If Flynn's the real, deal nothing else matters. If he sucks, Tannehill emerges in the meantime, maturing at a safe pace and takes over in year 3 and we cut Flynn. If Flynn's great and Tannehill turns out good, too, well, we'll be okay.
Quote: I said if we spend a pick on a QB HIGHER THAN A 4TH ROUNDER... Then the FO has lost faith in McCoy...
You don't bring in Equal or Greater Valued Competition (McCoy being a 3rd Rd Pick) if you think he's the guy.. (Rivers/Bress is the exception, not the rule..)
Quote: Compare the first video with this one and you can see how much improvement this kid made in one year. There is a reason Mike Sherman raves about how coachable this kid is.
He still has that quirky release, but he's definitely firing the ball quicker. I'm afraid that with Jones staying in school, Tannehill's going to go higher in the draft. I don't think he'll even be there with our 1b pick now.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Quote: Thanks....I like him, and have for a while.
He has tons of upside since he hasn't played the position very long. Coaching can clean up much in his mechanics.
I'd take him at 1B, but I think he is gone earlier.
I'd move up from that pick to take him.
I don't think that I'd move up from that pick to take him but he could be there. I doubt that they take him though, I think that Holmgren is looking further down the draft for a QB prospect.
Quote: I said if we spend a pick on a QB HIGHER THAN A 4TH ROUNDER... Then the FO has lost faith in McCoy...
You don't bring in Equal or Greater Valued Competition (McCoy being a 3rd Rd Pick) if you think he's the guy.. (Rivers/Bress is the exception, not the rule..)
That doesn't follow at all.
Yea, I think that a first round QB means you are much less certain that Colt is the guy and you the new guy is now option A, a second or third means that you are still on the fence and want to begin preparing option B just in case and anything from 4 down means you are still ok with Colt, and might just be looking for that Tom Brady late round miracle who could become the guy in a couple years if Colt fails to improve.
The one thing you have to remember about him is this is his second year at QB. I think that's why so many teams are interested in him. I look at him the same way as you (2nd rounder in need of development) but I think he has a very high ceiling, because he still has plenty that can be coached into him.
This isnt a guy who has been given ample time to develop pocket presence of decision making yet still does very well. Give him some time with the right coaches and he could become a very solid starter. He has all the measurables and is mobile when needed. .
Tannehill arrived in College Station as one of the top dual-threat quarterback prospects in the nation, but showed an exceptional team-first attitude by switching to receiver after losing the pre-season quarterback battle to Jerrod Johnson as a redshirt freshman in 2008. When Johnson struggled early in the 2010 season due to injury, however, Tannehill stepped into the fire and earned great respect from all of college football--and NFL scouts--by leading the team to six consecutive victories and a bowl berth, completing 65 percent of his passes for 1,638 yards and 13 touchdowns against six interceptions.
It's not as though his two seasons as primarily a receiver for the Aggues were unsuccessful. He caught 59 passes for 844 yards and five scores in that 2008 season, earning the team's offensive MVP award as well as Freshman All-American honors. Tannehill led the team for the second straight year in receiving in 2009 (46-609-4), receiving work at quarterback in three games (completing four of eight passes for 60 yards).
Quote: The one thing you have to remember about him is this is his second year at QB. I think that's why so many teams are interested in him. I look at him the same way as you (2nd rounder in need of development) but I think he has a very high ceiling, because he still has plenty that can be coached into him.
The problem with Tannehill is that Cleveland might be the worst place for him. The second our QB (whoever it is) has a bad game, the fans will start calling for the young kid to come in and take over. See: pretty much every QB controversy we've had since 1999.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Compare the first video with this one and you can see how much improvement this kid made in one year. There is a reason Mike Sherman raves about how coachable this kid is.
Coming from Northwestern, I've watched too many games to give an opposing QB much credit for what he does against us.
And since the league changed the rules about WR/CB play and put in the illegal contact rule, the league's been even more skewed for passing offenses to the point where people claiming you don't need an elite QB can't even point to the Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson outliers.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
For us, I definitely think Tannehill is the 2nd best QB in this draft and I'd fully be on board with us taking him. I still wouldn't take him before the 2nd round though because, like I said before, I think he could be better than McCoy but I just don't see "elite". It's not about getting "a" guy, it's about getting "the" guy. I like Tannehill a lot but can he be that type of QB?
The problem is someone is surely going to draft him before our pick at #37. So is he worth our pick at #22-#25? Boy, that's a tough question. I guess it depends on how you would rank him against the FA QB's available and the QB prospects expected to come out in 2013.
If we pass/can't obtain Luck we still need to upgrade the QB position somehow in the very near future.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
I think you also have to take a longer view of things.
If this guy is coming out and has experience in the WCO, then next year there will be someone as well... so, how does that person project at this point, etc? If that guy isn't viewed as being more than a backup, then would it perhaps be more prudent to just pass on him altogether being that we already have at least one backup in the WCO? That pick can then be spent on filling an actual need - because we can absolutely be certain that backup QB is NOT a need at this point.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I get what you're saying but looking at these guys remaining..I feel 2-3 of them are upgrades to McCoy. Not including Luck, these guys possess things that McCoy doesn't have,and I think they have a good chance of succeeding.
Well, my point is that unless you are definitely going to be getting an upgrade on the starter, there is no point in grabbing a guy.... and if you already have one (or two) backups, then there is no point in grabbing a guy that won't be a clear upgrade on the starter.
If the guy you are looking at falls into one of those scenarios, or is borderline in them, then you really need to look at what may be coming in the future because pulling the trigger this year may well not be the best move.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Quote: Well, my point is that unless you are definitely going to be getting an upgrade on the starter, there is no point in grabbing a guy.... and if you already have one (or two) backups, then there is no point in grabbing a guy that won't be a clear upgrade on the starter.
Which is why we need Luck . He's the only "definite upgrade" available IMO.
Quote: If the guy you are looking at falls into one of those scenarios, or is borderline in them, then you really need to look at what may be coming in the future because pulling the trigger this year may well not be the best move.
And this is where I think Tannehill falls. Which is why I said that's a tough decision and depends on the FA/2013 draft prospects available. Which way we go will for sure tell us H&H's true opinions of McCoy. If we pull the trigger on a Tannehill then they feel an upgrade at QB (even if not a sure thing) is imperative. If we use our higher picks instead on other positions and bring in a late round flier QB or low tier FA then they think McCoy showed enough to get one more year with better talent around him. Will be interesting for sure.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
Colt was a bit of a project who needed to sit, Tannehill is a project that should sit.. I just don't want to get into this situation where we keep drafting projects in the 2nd and 3rd rounds but can't afford them the time to sit...
Go big or don't go at all on the QB spot this year... I'll be repeating that right up until draft day.. If you think Flynn is "the guy" then go get him and pay the money and commit to it, if not, go get RGIII, if you don't like him enough, make a good offer for Luck, if you don't get him, stick with Colt.. we have got to stop half-azzing the QB spot.
Sign Kyle orton or Jason Campbell, and draft Blackmon/Richardson or trade down and grab K Wright then Tannehill with 1b. Upgrade with future.
Or, sign Flynn and draft Clayborn/Richardson/Kalil with 1a and Kendell Wright with 1b. Sign Bowe. Resign Hillis. BOOM! O-FFENSE!
If you have Hillis in the backfield and Bowe as #1, G Little as #2, K Wright as #3, that is DEFINITELY a supporting cast that you can win with. Especially if you sign a serviceable RT in FA and draft Claiborne with 1a. A starting LB or FS in round 2, and our team can legitimately make some noise.
EDIT- Just realized I was in the Tannehill thread. They all mesh together now
Last edited by TI84_Plus; 01/06/1207:08 PM.
Wise words spoken by sages From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
Quote: Colt was a bit of a project who needed to sit, Tannehill is a project that should sit.. I just don't want to get into this situation where we keep drafting projects in the 2nd and 3rd rounds but can't afford them the time to sit...
I think that the Browns FO hasn't given up on Colt and that they may take a step back with him. I can see them looking to sign a veteran FA QB (one with actual NFL experience) that doesn't need a cane that fits the scheme and who won't be prone to injury. Maybe someone like Chris Redman, just so that McCoy can get the year holding the clipboard that he was supposed to get but never did.
Frankly, I think the Browns should simply release Seneca Wallace, but I don't think that's what they'll do. I think that Holmgren is comfy with him on the team and will keep him around.
Tannehill arrived in College Station as one of the top dual-threat quarterback prospects in the nation, but showed an exceptional team-first attitude by switching to receiver after losing the pre-season quarterback battle to Jerrod Johnson as a redshirt freshman in 2008. When Johnson struggled early in the 2010 season due to injury, however, Tannehill stepped into the fire and earned great respect from all of college football--and NFL scouts--by leading the team to six consecutive victories and a bowl berth, completing 65 percent of his passes for 1,638 yards and 13 touchdowns against six interceptions.
It's not as though his two seasons as primarily a receiver for the Aggues were unsuccessful. He caught 59 passes for 844 yards and five scores in that 2008 season, earning the team's offensive MVP award as well as Freshman All-American honors. Tannehill led the team for the second straight year in receiving in 2009 (46-609-4), receiving work at quarterback in three games (completing four of eight passes for 60 yards).
I meant converted him to WR from being a QB in HS
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Colt was a bit of a project who needed to sit, Tannehill is a project that should sit..
Tannehill isn't this big project QB some of you guys are making him out to be and he should not be sitting. He needs reps. He needs to play and learn as he goes. The only way I would sit him is if he goes to a different offensive scheme and then he has to learn that as well.
Colt never ran a pro system. Tannehill runs this system. They run a little more out of the gun than we do but thats about the only difference besides they run it better. Look Tannehill makes throws Colt can't dream of making. Tannehill makes throws Colt struggles with look like nerf football.
I think he will be one of those that just lights up the senior bowl and his stock will soar. It could really soar if Mike Sherman gets the Miami job, then you have Shannahan who loves big armed QBs with mobility and then you have Seattle running the WCO as well. 3 top 10 teams running the WCO and needing a QB and 1 more not far behind.
BTW wonder if Pat Shurmur will be coaching the senior bowl? Rams wont have a staff in place and the Colts might not.
Word on the street is that Tannehill suffered a "significant foot injury" today, which will keep him out of the senior bowl, and possibly affect the Combine - will look for sources.
Also heard the same thing major injury practicing.
My understanding of what the NFL, or Senior Bowl people do, is start at the top of the draft and ask teams if they want to coach it. So they asked Indy (who has HC uncertainty) then STL, which fired their HC so probably skipped them, then Minn (who accepted), the Browns (we turned it down - only a guess here), then TB (no head coach), and finally Washington accepted as the 2nd team.
I cannot say 100% that this is how it went, but I remember reading somewhere (at sometime) something like this is the process.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital. Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
Quote: Also heard the same thing major injury practicing.
The injury is being described as "a significant foot injury." Apparently, he suffered it while working out. The guys is obviously made of glass. I want no part of him.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
Well, I actually went to Texas A&M for undergrad and graduated in 2007, so I have been watching A&M football since 2003. When Tannehill stepped in as QB mid-season of 2010, he was on fire for 6 games, and then came crashing down against LSU giving up some turnovers and screwing up a lot of passes. From there, that has become the norm with him in 2011. He looked worse this year than he did in the 7 games he started in 2010, but then again the entire football team was one disaster after another all season, so it's difficult to put it all on Tannehill. He certainly did well against the lesser opponents, but failed to get the job done in games that mattered and often disappeared in the 2nd half.
The A&M run game was consistently awesome each week even after Christine Michael went down for the year, and yet Tannehill still struggled to make good decisions. When asked to come back late in games, Tannehill tended to make a lot of bad mistakes. He usually picked the most inopportune times to throw INTs, which may have been due to pressure from the defense and them expecting the pass, but it was still his decision to throw the ball.
In any case, I really don't believe that he will be any better than a Jake Locker or a Christian Ponder, and that he belongs in the 3rd round or later. He doesn't have exceptional arm strength, accuracy or mobility. He's an above average QB, but his great size is the only reason he is ahead of other QB prospects in the draft rankings. If he's there in the early third, sure take him, if not, don't worry about it, you're not missing on the next Elway.
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. He's the only "definite upgrade" available IMO. 
like this is the process. 
