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I think that about sums it up perfectly.... and I do that even if RGIII is there.
Luck isn't even in the equation, no way he is there at #4... so, it's Blackmon, trade down or Claiborne - in that order.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
who is your backup plan at #4 if Luck/Blackmon/RGIII go in the top3?
That's not going to happen, but if it does, you try and trade back.
If you cannot do that, draft the LSU Corner and watch your corners shut down the opposition next year.
why not? StL or Minny could pick Blackmon and someone could trade up for RGII.
was trying to get a feel on the Claiborne vs. Kalil from people if those are the 2 best we are left with (both fill needs but ones that are typically not true value spots that high in the draft - CB2 and RT)
I think I lean Claiborne as well - easier to get a good RT in round2 than a good CB2.
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Wouldn't Caliborne be a CB1 fairly quickly?
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Wouldn't Caliborne be a CB1 fairly quickly?
I think so. He's kind of flown under the radar because of Luck, and lately RG3, but he's damn good. Like I said, I have watched almost every LSU game this year. He's really really good. I think better than Haden was coming out of Florida. If we take him I have absolutely no problem with that. Even though we have a high rated pass defense, I still think we are weak at corner. If we show up with Haden/Claiborne, with Skrine as a depth player, and maybe even still Shelden Brown? That's really good, it looks even better when you see how this league right now is a passing league. I will sign up for that now.
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Wouldn't Caliborne be a CB1 fairly quickly?
well, we need a CB2. if Claiborne becomes our CB1 (making Haden our CB2) it really doesn't change the fact that we used our #4 overall pick to fill out CB2 spot.
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Not sure about Claiborne but I'll be watching him closely tonight.
CB is the fourth most important position on the football field behind QB, LT and RDE. If he's destined to be a great one I have no problem pulling the trigger on him.
At 22 I'd really like to get the premium guy at RDE. Probably Mercilus.
I really would love to get LaVonte David at 37.
Man it would be strange to go defense with our first three picks but it'd set it up to be one of the best defenses in the NFL in a couple years.
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we'd have to go pretty heavy offense in FA to even consider that as an option (I would hope)
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Well, if we can score a RT and at least one (perhaps two?) upper-echelon WR, we should be able to go do it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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If he is the best player available on your board you take him. After watching Sheldon Brown get torched all year and always leaving Joe Haden on an island because we were sending the safety to help Brown it's not that hard of a sell to me to take Claiborne.
Only position we can't consider at number 4 is LT because of Joe Thomas. (Well out of the positions that a team would actually draft that high, I'm not talking about Punters, Long Snappers and Right Tackles here.)
Joe Haden is good but he isn't a Pro-Bowl CB (right now). It is defiantly a need and if the BPA is a CB, look to trade and if you can't find a dance partner you take the CB.
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Could turn out something like this: Code:
4 1a Claiborne CB LSU
22 1b Mercilus DE Illinois
37 2 David OLB Nebraska
68 3 Jones WR UNC
101 4a Mosley OT Auburn
120 4b JMJ ILB Nevada
135 5 Ganaway RB Baylor
170 6 Hartman FS KSU
205 7 Childs WR Arkansas
*edit: and i know i'll probably get killed for this, but right now i do like Posey as a 4th round prospect. Of course Django will come on here and say he hates big-school underachievers, but who has he had throwing him the ball? He's quick, decent YAC... not tops on my list but not off my list like a lot of you guys. Oh yeah, and i don't actually have a list.
Last edited by CleveSteve; 01/09/12 04:25 PM.
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Cleve: What ever happened to my boy Childs ? Before he got hurt last year I though he was another Blackmon... He came back this , but still went missing ?
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he got injured last year and the speedy guys moved ahead of him on the depth chart. I still like him. I think he showed against K-State that he's still a strong target who will fight for yardage after being Mallett's favorite target in the past. I think he would have been a productive starter on most other teams but Arkansas was loaded at WR.
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I don't know much about any of those guys, particularly the latter round ones, but going off the positions taken, I could be quite happy with that. ... and there is just something warm-n-fuzzy about a DE with a last name pronounced "mer·ci·less"  Basically, we'd have two near-shutdown corners, which will enable our LB's to play more aggressively and allow our Safeties to play closer to the line. Adding a strong pass-rush DE to our existing line helps IMMENSELY, and puts that much more pressure on a QB - that will have two fewer targets to throw at on most plays. So, most teams would be left trying to match up a RB or TE on our LB's - and with taking a higher round OLB, that becomes a little tougher for them. In the run game, we'd almost always be able to put 8 in the box. An offseason to grow and learn for Colt, Little and Norwood with the addition of at least one more WR to take the #1 spot and a RT - and a returning Hillis - and the offense CANNOT be as putrid as it was. In fact, I think we'd be more consistently seeing the production we were seeing at the end of the season as our starting off point for next year with it improving as the year goes on. That would lead to a fair number of wins for us next season. 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Jones I myself haven't watched very much, but a lot of guys on here seem to think he's the nuts when it comes to wideouts in this draft.
The Auburn OT is a guy I'll be watching at the Senior Bowl. I think looking at OL and DL is the best use of the senior bowl. That's what made me want Rubin in the 3rd or 4th back in 08 before we made all those trades. Mosley started 13 games at RT for Auburn and 1 on the left side.
James-Michael Johnson was the guy who really stood out to me last year as super-productive when I was watching all the Nevada games trying to figure out why people liked Dontay Moch. He was in on just about every play. He could play special teams and backup Jackson.
Ganaway was a stud strong single-back RB at Baylor. I think he would be good for our offense so we don't have to rely so much on the FB.
Tysyn Hartman is a smart FS with good size at KSU. He made a couple good plays in the Cotton Bowl before hitting his head pretty hard. He's more of a positional pick that I've seen has the capability to play than someone I'd really endorse.
Then of course... Childs, please.
*disclaimer -- this wasn't "my mock"... it was a possibility of how we could gain productive players on O given Heldawg's first three picks.
Last edited by CleveSteve; 01/09/12 04:49 PM.
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H&H&Shurmur better have some iron will and thick skin if they are going to go defense with the first 3 picks after watching this season.. and I don't care who they get in FA.
I think it's more realistic that the #4 pick is Blackmon and then the CB, if we take one, is a second tier guy like Hoseley out of Va Tech in the second.
My fear with Claiborne is that he has played his entire career with a totally dominant DL.. I know, I know, but what about Patrick Peterson, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Peterson about 30 pounds heavier, slightly taller, and faster?
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Peterson struggled in coverage to start off the year, too.
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Peterson struggled in coverage to start off the year, too.
and was a dynamic PR to help make up for any inconsistencies he had on D too
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My hope is to end up with:
4.) RG3
22.) Alshon Jeffery
37.) Chase Minnifield
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H&H&Shurmur better have some iron will and thick skin if they are going to go defense with the first 3 picks after watching this season.. and I don't care who they get in FA.
I think that would be a short-sighted view. The purpose of the both is to bring in talent... if ya bring it in, ya bring it in and free agent talent is at least proven at this level.
Of course, that's no guarantee of future performance, but nothing is.
But yeah, they'd probably catch hell for it because the new shiny toys wouldn't be for our weakness - if if we just brought in new shiny toys that did.
I guess, if anything, I just hope that they aren't afraid to do it if it is what things come to.
Heck, look at our division. It's all good defenses and then .... us. Giving us the pieces to get to that level would be kinda awesome and keep us in a LOT of games.
All that being what it is, I'm pretty sure that the focus will be strongly on offense early on.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I like Foles and I think given time to learn, he'll be a very nice pro QB.
Wheedon has maturity already due to his age and he could bring some leadership qualities from the start, but as you stated, his age will diminish his draft value.
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I just had surgery today so I am going to keep this short. To say Griffin scares me is an understatement. I went back and researched Mike Leach and Art Briles. There is a reason Guys excell in there systems..When I feel better I will break it down again because I did it already and my computer shut down. If anyone else cares to look at the History of the QB under these guys feel free. It goes back to Tim Couch at Kentucky, 1 year stint at Oklahoma(for Leach), then The Juggernaut"air raid" Offenses at Texas Tech and the University of Houston. It's not uncommon for these QB's to break NCAA records any given year. I believe when Couch was drafted this was an * on him in his draft Profile. Buyer Beware is all I have to say. Have to go take my Meds now..lol Can't even tell if I am coherent so I apologize in advance. Here is a link to QB's at Texas Tech through 2008. Crazy insane numbers. Crazy
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I haven't really thought about that, but I agree, it would be a very tough decision to make.
You're Heckert and you're sitting in your GM seat as each pick is coming up in the first 2-3 rounds....and each time your draft clock starts there is a defensive player atop the big board of best player available. Do you have the stones to take the BPA in every pick, even if it's a defensive player?
IMO, our defense was good enough for this division, which would put us in the playoffs (similar to the Bronc's or Bengals - just get in and see what magic can happen). The problem with our team, the offense is horrible. And it may be one of the worst in the league.
I don't know if I'd have the strength to take a CB, DE and OLB with the first three picks if they were there. You know the fans and the media would be happy for the talent but questioning what the offense will be doing with the same junk as before.
Even though I'd like the bump in salary, I don't really want his job from now through April.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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that is certainly true... but remember that part of what condemned Rodgers is playing for the same coach that sent Trent Dilfer, David Carr, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, and Kyle Boller to the first round. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Tedford#Tedford.27s_quarterbacksWhen I look at Griffin, I look at the skills he displays in the game and not the stat line.
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i think our board should already have "need" built into it. as we make our picks, it shifts our needs and it should be automatically fed into the system (I'm assuming we actually have equations that we put scouts draft scoring into and we don't just put names up on a big chalkboard anymore)
as such, if the top of our board reads a defensive player, then that is who we should take (if the score is nearly identical to the next player and it's an offensive player Heckert wants, then no issue making that call either though)
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Exactly. If you have a defensive tackle rated at 92.4 and a WR rated at 92.1.. (Making these numbers up) take the WR.. to not do that is just being bullheaded IMO.. now if it's a 10 point difference, take the better player.
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Yes, thanks for clarifying what I was trying to say. Need and BPA is all weighted out to our depth chart....and a defnesive player is atop the board for our first four picks. It would be hard to use them all on defense knowing how bad we are on offense.
I guess if he "reached" for an offensive need and missed, that would be worse than picking a legit starter on defense and hitting. So in the long run, he would be smart to follow the board.
I know it's a passing, offensive game nowadays.....but if you can build a defense that can get to the passer AND shutdown the WRs when you can't, that can really win you a lot of games too.
Living in Chicago I get to hear about the fans whining about how Angelo seemed to always draft defense. BUT, the defense was good enough to contend for the division and sometimes the Super Bowl during that stretch too. So maybe, building on our "strength" will somehow cover up our weakness.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Quote:
that is certainly true... but remember that part of what condemned Rodgers is playing for the same coach that sent Trent Dilfer, David Carr, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, and Kyle Boller to the first round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Tedford#Tedford.27s_quarterbacks
When I look at Griffin, I look at the skills he displays in the game and not the stat line.
That's fair. Then Griffin would be great if he had a chance to go somewhere and sit behind a Future Hall of Famer for however many years. I firmly believe he is not a Day 1 ready QB and especially not here. He doesn't know how to not take a hit and already tore his ACL once. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion so treat it as such.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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if Cutler and Forte don't get hurt, they probably aren't complaining about their offense much right now either.
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I think that would be a short-sighted view. The purpose of the both is to bring in talent...
Sort of.. the purpose of everybody in Berea is the same.. to win football games, make the playoffs, and ultimately win a super bowl. Everybody has a different role but that is the overall objective. So to totally ignore need just to say you brought in talented players is also shortsighted. That is what teams like the Steelers and Packers are able to do because they have a very talented and winning team already so go get the best player available and they will find a way to make you better... we do not exactly have that luxury, we have some glaring deficiencies that need to be addressed. I'm not saying we should over reach but there are some positions we need a lot more than others.
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Heck, look at our division. It's all good defenses and then .... us. Giving us the pieces to get to that level would be kinda awesome and keep us in a LOT of games.
Our defense already kept us in a lot of games. Are you saying the biggest difference between us and the Ravens/Steelers/Bengals is defense? I would strongly disagree. Our defense is a lot closer to their defenses than our offense is to any of them..
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I also believe this:
If you are on the clock, and staring at a potential franchise QB ..... and you either pass or trade the pick ...... you better be right. Oh you better be very, very right.
Look at the grief people still give for us passing on Sanchez ...... and he sucks. He went to the perfect situation .... to a team with talented WRs, a great OL and running game .... and a superior defense ....... and has never shown up. People still whine and complain about us not drafting him (which amazes me) and about what we received in exchange for the pick.
Imagine what it would be like if we pass on, or trade away the rights to take a guy like RG3, and he becomes a star.
Some people say that you better be right when drafting a potential franchise QB high ...... I think that the opposite it true, and you better not be wrong if you pass. That's the kind of thing that could cost a front office a lot of jobs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Imagine what it would be like if we pass on, or trade away the rights to take a guy like RG3, and he becomes a star
it'll make a great storyline when we play the Redskins in the Superbowl with us starting Flynn, Blackmon (who slipped to #6), and Z. Sanders (who we picked with their 2nd round pick they gave us for trading up)
(hey, why not dream big  )
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I hope we're not counting on Matt Flynn and Zebrie Sanders to lead us to the promised land. Sheldon Brown says "you're crazy."
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Quote:
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Imagine what it would be like if we pass on, or trade away the rights to take a guy like RG3, and he becomes a star
it'll make a great storyline when we play the Redskins in the Superbowl with us starting Flynn, Blackmon (who slipped to #6), and Z. Sanders (who we picked with their 2nd round pick they gave us for trading up)
(hey, why not dream big )
Yeah, we learned that lesson from the Sanchize trade.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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well, to be fair, Mangini isn't making the picks this time
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Sheldon Brown says "you're crazy."
I said it in jest, but if that's how Sheldon Brown feels, then maybe there's some validity towards it 
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Mercilus is still VERY raw and has a lot of upside left...but he will be thrown in day 1 and I'm just not sure he's ready for what he'll face in the NFL if he has some obvious holes to his game in College...that said he seems to have the work ethic, so he could become a slightly less atheltic version of JPP...I know this will sound strange but if he is good enough and GMs are convinced he can improve he will go before our ATL...so, if he's still there when we pick him...right now... I tend not to pick him because of that...a day 1 ready RDE just doesn't fall to 22 in ANY draft..I hope that made sense...
If Dennard and Tannehill are gone by pick 22...I hope we find a trading partner, preferably NE who have 2x1st and 2x2nd
#gmstrong
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Mercilus...see Aaron Maybin
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Yes. I don't see him going in the Top 10 and the only way that I see him going earlier is if either Washington or Miami don't trade up but trade down and I don't see a lot of suitors for their draft positions.
Agreed, but then doesn't that mean he is highly likely to be there for us in Round 2, given that we are again ahead of Washington and Miami? Tannehill in Round 2 would be fantastic.
If the Browns could nab Tannehill in the second round, I wouldn't be upset one bit.
Another QB that's been lost in all this talk is Jimmy Clausen. He was drafted in the 2nd round by Carolina two years ago and hasn't even played very much at all. Offer Carolina a 7th rounder for him. If they wouldn't go for that, offer then a sixth, but not both.
Clausen's contract isn't untenable (topping at $6.3 million for 4 years - 2 of which have already passed). Being out of Notre Dame (and we all know about Quinn), but he was considered a Top 10 pick (fell to 48th) and might be worth a shot if the price is workable.
Just some food for thought.
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I see that whole situation (Claiborne vs trade-down) working out the same way the Julio Jones thing worked out this past draft. If someone wants to open up the draft checkbook for our top pick, then go for it. If not, we pick the CB and actually build up a strength.
I said this before, and I'll say it again. I would not hold it against Heckert to go defense with our first pick (both our first rounders would get a raised eyebrow out of me). Honestly, what's so bad about focusing on one unit and making it scary to other teams? Building both sides at the same time takes longer (spreading money and picks over more positions) and is more confusing because one depends on the other. I say give Little another season to grow some hands, give Colt another year to figure out the game, focus on D if that's what drops to pick 4, and don't look back.
As a fan, I think it would also make the games more watchable. The fans would have something to look forward to on Sundays (ex. their top-flight WR getting shut down, their quarterback running for his life, etc).
If this does happen, I would expect Heckert to really open up the checkbook for a #1 WR (I think Heckert and Holmgren are a little scared of fanbase reaction).
Detroit did this with their D-line, and it seemed to work out pretty well for the them. I think we could build our secondary and Dline with this draft and have a truly scary defense, and that would make me a happy fan.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Cleveland officially 4 and
22...who ya got?
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