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That's cool. In all my years around this place I don't think opinions have been changed more then a handful of times, so I've quit trying.  I'd take him, you wouldn't. I still think you are a swell guy and hope you still feel the same about me.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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yep, no doubt you are. and, if all of us agreed, then this site would die pretty quickly 
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Quote:
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Sure, if I could guarantee a Hall of Fame anything, I'd do so and take that player in a heartbeat.
However I don't see the browns looking at a Guard in the 1st 3 or 4 rounds of the draft regardless.
Because they're sold on Lauvao? 
Because they have a decent young pass blocking Guard in Pinkston, a decent young run blocking RG in Lauvoa, a returning vet in Eric Steinbach, and a front office who has singled out Lauvoa as having done better as the year went by at doing what they expect out of the RG position.
Now you might see us taking a Guard high in this draft. I don't. I think that there are much, much bigger needs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Come on Ytown, you should know by now that the only way a QB can be successful is to have five first rounders protecting him and atleast 2 first rounders as receiving options. Geezz what were u thinking 
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it worked for Alex Smith 
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Smith also has a pair of 1st round WR and a #1 overall defense. And he's turned into an OK QB. I guess that's all it takes for a so-so QB to win.  3000 yards, 61% completions, 17 TD 5 INT ......OK numbers, but he has never had to load the team on his back and carry them ....... and if he does, I don't think that it's going to be pretty.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Smith also has a pair of 1st round WR and a #1 overall defense.
And he's turned into an OK QB.
I guess that's all it takes for a so-so QB to win.
3000 yards, 61% completions, 17 TD 5 INT ......OK numbers, but he has never had to load the team on his back and carry them ....... and if he does, I don't think that it's going to be pretty.
Not for nothing - but according to : http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam...d_group=Offense
the 9ers had the second rated defense. Smith threw for just under 3200 yds, and had 18 td's.
I get that Crabtree was a #1 pick as receiver..........are you including Braylon as the other?
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Honest question here - no "trick" stuff involved: Which qb's have loaded their teams on their shoulders and won consistently because of the qb play? You know, with avg. receivers, an average running game, and an average d.
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I would offer up the NE Patriots (pre-Moss era). Their defense was very good, no great. Their WRs were practically nameless and they seemed to have a different RB every year.
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I could probably list 30 QBs if I wanted to go through it.
Probably the best example is Dan Marino who put up GOAT numbers with smallish, kind of fast, great hands receivers. Had no running game, an iffy OL for the vast amount of his career and an insufficient defense.
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Quote:
I could probably list 30 QBs if I wanted to go through it.
Probably the best example is Dan Marino who put up GOAT numbers with smallish, kind of fast, great hands receivers. Had no running game, an iffy OL for the vast amount of his career and an insufficient defense.
Cool - I asked an honest question, I got an honest answer.
One other honest question: Did Miami win in the playoffs with Marino? I have no idea, but I'm going to check.
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They might as well just trade straight up for Claussen, Frye, Quinn, or Boller
It's not like you have any credibility at all, but if you had any it goes back down to zero every time you mention KYLE BOLLER as a viable starting QB option.
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Quote:
I could probably list 30 QBs if I wanted to go through it.
Probably the best example is Dan Marino who put up GOAT numbers with smallish, kind of fast, great hands receivers. Had no running game, an iffy OL for the vast amount of his career and an insufficient defense.
Simply not true.
Cold Hard Facts about Marino
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Indy, New Orleans, New England ..... those are a few teams right off the top of my head.
The Saints won a Super Bowl with a scoring defense ranked 10th ...... in the NFC. They were 13th overall. They had a good defense, but hardly a spectacular "carry the team" defense. On offense the Saints were 4th in passing, and 6th in rushing. Last year they didn't make the Super Bowl, but were 3rd in passing and 28th in rushing, and went 11-5. Obviously a team needs a small amount of balance, but the QB makes the difference.
The 2006 Super Bowl Champion Colts were 21st in total defense. (The Browns were 27th) The Browns gave up 356 points that year, good for 22nd in the league. The team that came in behind the Browns gave up 360 points ..... and they were the Indy Colts. The Colts were 19th in rushing that year.
New England hasn't had a great defense for a few years now. They keep throwing up 10+ game win seasons.
They have fluctuated between 4th and 31st in total defense. They have fluctuated between 2nd and 17th in points allowed. They have won every year ..... between 10 and 16 games. Hell, the Pats won their 2001 Super Bowl with the 21st ranked defense.
You can look all over the place for examples of teams that are lacking in places other than the QB.
Look at this season.
These are all playoff teams ...... with their defensive rankings .....
Detroit 23rd
New Orleans 24th
Giants 27th
New England 31
Green Bay 32
As far as rushing:
New England 20th
Green Bay 27th
Detroit 28th
NY Giants 32nd.
If you have a franchise QB and an elite passing game you can cover up flaws in multiple areas on the field. if you don't, then you better have elite units everywhere else, and they better be "on" every day.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Without looking that sounds right.
Weird career arc. He gets to the SuperBowl his rookie year. Has such an obviously great year and is such an obviously great talent that it is expected that he'll win at least a few SuperBowls. Not just make it to the game - win it a few times.
Fairly good looking guy. Starts showing up in commercials (what happened to Isotoner gloves? do they still make those?). And is pretty much on top of the world.
But what happens? The team around him never really improves until late in his career. By that time his skills have started to erode. He goes from poorly mobile to immoble. Get's sacked in Cleveland and tears his achilles pretty much signaling the end of his career.
Looking back never makes it back to the SuperBowl.
The greatest physically skilled thrower of the football I have ever witnessed. Would love to see a guy like him come around the bend again.
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Help me out - at the beginning of your post, you reference "scoring defense"......does that mean the d scored points?
Later in your post, you reference "total defense".
In your post, are those 2 considered different things?
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Scoring defense is how many points the team allows. (and it includes everything, including points allowed by the defense, and stuff not controllable by the defense such as turnovers by the offense that result in points, and special teams TDs scored against their team)
Total defense is the total yards allowed by a defense while the other team is on offense.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I read your link and it's got so many holes in it it's hilarious! I lived the Marino years and got to see what I saw with my own two eyes. Probably saw no less than 50 games of his. I don't need "Cold Hard Stone Cold Lock Truthy" website to rewrite my history for me. Kind of funny...they bring up the defense and running game examples and highlight his rookie year. Umm...Hello! He played in the SuperBowl that year! If you want me to post why Michael Jordan was a fraud and use selective statistics to make my case I could do that no problem. For those of us that lived to watch the Dolphins with Marino and the Bulls with Jordan. Well the best I can say is that I saw what I saw.
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IIRC, Marino never had a 1000 yard rusher in his entire career until he was like 35 ... and that RB, Abdul-Jabbar only did it once.
Their defense was really good in his rookie year, then dropped pretty badly after that. They only had a top 10 defense (scoring and yards) one other time in his career.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
IIRC, Marino never had a 1000 yard rusher in his entire career until he was like 35 ... and that RB, Abdul-Jabbar only did it once.
Their defense was really good in his rookie year, then dropped pretty badly after that. They only had a top 10 defense (scoring and yards) one other time in his career.
We should get back on topic but Once again..
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_57_The_Marino_mythology.html
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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The Proof is Undeniable: Link
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I'm not saying I based it off one game or anything, but from what I saw in the highlight package (or lackthereof) I don't want any part of Richardson.
I'm not saying the guy is horrible, but I don't think he's as good as Adrian Peterson was coming out of school, and I think that is the only type of back you ever draft that high. Richardson is a nice back, but he's not Peterson.
I would rather have Claiborne. I think he's tops on my list right now of guys we can reasonably get (Obviously Luck would be #1 otherwise) I think it's a safe pick, the guy is extremely talented. Especially with high picks, I just want the best pro, and I think Claiborne is right there after Luck.
I don't worry about needs with a pick that high as much as just getting a guy who on your list, will be the best pro. A guy that will be there 10 years, has no character/injury concerns, and will start immediately. As much as I like RG3, he doesn't fit that bill as much as Claiborne does, and I think that will be Heckert's biggest point if he goes down that road.
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That's cool. I am actually starting to lean more toward Kirkpatrick if we went that route. He played great, was willing just a few times I noticed he didn't finish off a tackle or wrap up, but he usually had help right away and gang tackles. Am I wrong...Didn't Blackmon scorch Claiborn last year for a huge game or am I thinking of someone else?
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Quote:
Quote:
I could probably list 30 QBs if I wanted to go through it.
Probably the best example is Dan Marino who put up GOAT numbers with smallish, kind of fast, great hands receivers. Had no running game, an iffy OL for the vast amount of his career and an insufficient defense.
Simply not true.
Cold Hard Facts about Marino
Great link, nice read. I was growing up in the Marino heyday, and thought he was somehwat overrated. They were on TV every weekend, and it seemed every time the Fins were driving in the 4th quarter to tie or win, and a 3rd down pass was not caught, there was a flag for pass interference. It seemed like it happened every time.
I loved the Super Bowl when the 9ers trounced them.
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In 1983, Marino was a rookie. In 1998, Marino was a 37 year old man. Those are the 2 years he played with a "#1" defense.
In 1983, the Dolphins had the #1 scoring defense. They did so again in 1998.In his career they were 1, 7, 12, 26, 16, 24, 22, 4, 24, 11, 24, 17, 10, 17, 16, 1, and 19 in scoring. (the year in italics is the year Marino was injured and Scott Mitchell began his legendary career)
I love how the writer brings up the Steelers, and how Bradshaw had only 2 overall #1 defenses in his career .... while ignoring that he had top 10 defenses 8 times. They won Super Bowls when ranked 2/1 in points scoring, as well as 2/4, they then lost to the raiders in the AFC Championship the year they were ranked 1/1 ..... then won another Super Bowl ranked 1/3 ... and another ranked 5/2. Yeah, both QBs had #1 overall defenses twice ...... and that gained them exactly 1 Super Bowl between them.
There were a lot of players on that Dolphins team that we would never have heard of if it weren't for Marino. He rewrote the record books, and he had minimal help on defense and running the ball most of those years. Their OL never had to do much except snap and hold off the rush for a second or 2 and the ball was gone. Marino had a superhuman release. That ball snapped out in a fraction of a second. he had the arm to make every throw, and the accuracy to make them all count.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I could probably list 30 QBs if I wanted to go through it.
Probably the best example is Dan Marino who put up GOAT numbers with smallish, kind of fast, great hands receivers. Had no running game, an iffy OL for the vast amount of his career and an insufficient defense.
Simply not true.
Cold Hard Facts about Marino
Great link, nice read. I was growing up in the Marino heyday, and thought he was somehwat overrated. They were on TV every weekend, and it seemed every time the Fins were driving in the 4th quarter to tie or win, and a 3rd down pass was not caught, there was a flag for pass interference. It seemed like it happened every time.
I loved the Super Bowl when the 9ers trounced them.
No Problem Cap! 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Quote:
That's cool. I am actually starting to lean more toward Kirkpatrick if we went that route. He played great, was willing just a few times I noticed he didn't finish off a tackle or wrap up, but he usually had help right away and gang tackles. Am I wrong...Didn't Blackmon scorch Claiborn last year for a huge game or am I thinking of someone else?
Nah, LSU and OSU haven't matched up in the last few years. Maybe you're talking about Prince Amakamura, since they are from the same conf?
I like Kirkpatrick too if we don't go Claiborne at 4 and decide to go with someone else.
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That's cool. I am actually starting to lean more toward Kirkpatrick if we went that route. He played great, was willing just a few times I noticed he didn't finish off a tackle or wrap up, but he usually had help right away and gang tackles. Am I wrong...Didn't Blackmon scorch Claiborn last year for a huge game or am I thinking of someone else?
Nah, LSU and OSU haven't matched up in the last few years. Maybe you're talking about Prince Amakamura, since they are from the same conf?
I like Kirkpatrick too if we don't go Claiborne at 4 and decide to go with someone else.
You are right it was Prince!
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I get that Crabtree was a #1 pick as receiver..........are you including Braylon as the other?
I was making a sarcastic reply to getting a bunch of 1st round picks on OL and at WR to judge a QB (since the 49ers did exactly that for Alex Smith)
the #1 picks at WR this year for him were: Crabtree, Braylon(since cut), Ted Ginn Jr., and Vernon Davis (his TE)
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I dont scour mock drafts or where guys may go too often but I'd like to keep an eye on Russel Wilson from Wisconsin in later rounds. Kid doesnt have the heighth I like but from what Ive seen, he's a gamer and pretty intelligent.
3rd or 4th round maybe? I've no idea.
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That is about where most projections have him going (3/4). He could go earlier or later, all depends, as has been said, 'it only takes one team to take you, and where you get taken is where you got taken'.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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I wish there was a way to trade for Dez Bryant. Dallas has Austin and Robinson. I would love to trade our pick to Washington get theres and an extra 2nd or third(whatever the draft value is) Trade our pick to Dallas for Bryant and Next years first. Dallas needs secondary help and Kirkpatrick would fit nicely in that slot for Dallas as would top tier OL.
We would then have the
14)??
22)Burfict
Whatever picks from Washington to move for RG
Dallas next years first and Bryant to move from 14 to 6
Wishful thinking I know.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I would love to have Bryant's talent but not his baggage.
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Quote:
I would love to have Bryant's talent but not his baggage.
you mean Blackmon?
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I was replying to a poster who said we should trade for Bryant.
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I took no logo to mean that Blackmon has Dez Bryant talent without the baggage.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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indeed. at least that is the hope (he does have a DUI but doesn't come off nearly as arrogant as Dez did).
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indeed. at least that is the hope (he does have a DUI but doesn't come off nearly as arrogant as Dez did).
I'm not condoning DUIs in the least, but if that's the measure of whether the guy will cut it in the pros (or if he's a head case who will bring too much drama), then we should probably cut Steinbach for his drunken boat escapades, right?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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A college kid got a DUI ; Lions & Tigers and Bears , oh my !
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Cleveland officially 4 and
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