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You are still reading what you want to read.
Here is how all of that started. I said:
Patience isn't important for the fans...they don't make any of the decisions.
You came back and said Bull or something along those lines.
So, using my quote as the point of reference and setting the context for all the other comments about the importance of patience, his comments made perfect sense and you still are letting it fly over your head.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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However you wish to interpret it, Patience is an important ingredient.
Building an NFL Franchise is no different than building any other company.
You have to have a plan, then you have to have the stones to stick to your plan - and have the patience and be given the time to stick with the plan through the tough times and give things time to get better.
If you bail on your plan every few years, you will NEVER, EVER, EVER see anything even remotely approaching meaningful and lasting success.
I don't disagree with that. I am just saying I, You, or any other fan doesn't need be.
Really, only the owner and staff need display any.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Oh, absolutely, I agree.
That said, things can come to the point where fan pressure can lead to a feeling in a front office or ownership that causes "marketing decisions" to try to accelerate the process.
However, the successful business will stick to their plan, though, and make appeasement issues as small of an investment as possible - and only when it benefits the long view of things.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That would be the "unless the FO listens to the fans" part.
How anybody can read Peen's or OSGuy's statements and got anything from them other than this: "If the front office listens to the fans then it is important for the fans to be patient. If the front office does not listen to the fans then it does not matter if the fans are patient or not." is beyond me.
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This is exactly what he said the first time:
"Patience by the fans is only important if you have a FO that listens to what they say."
So, heres the final question,.,
Should the FO listen to the fans? And Why?
No they shouldn't. Because they should do what they themselves think is the right thing to do regardless of what the fans think.
So..."Patience by the fans is only important if you have a FO that listens to what they say." Meaning that if the FO listens to the fans and reacts and does what the fans want them to do then the fan's patience is important so it doesn't force the FO to make knee-jerk decisions based on the fan's lack of patience.
"Patience by the fans is only important if you have a FO that listens to what they say."
• Fan patience + FO listens to them = Good decisions based on what the FO thinks is right because even though they listen to the fans, the fans patience allows them freedom to make their own decisions without pressure. In this case fan's patience is important.
• Lack of fan's patience + FO listens to them = Bad decisions based on what the fans say. In this case the fan's patience is important because the FO listens to them and is driven by that lack of patience forcing bad decisions because of it.
• Fan's patience or no patiencet + FO who doesn't listen to them = FO makes good decisions because they don't listen to what the fans want.
So as you can see, the patience of the fans is only important if the FO listens to them.
Otherwise, fan's patience is not important because the FO will not listen and will do what they think is right regardless of what the fans want or how impatient they are.
If the FO does not listen to the fans then the amount of patience the fans have is not important.
I don't know how many different ways this can be said. The original statement was clear enough for most of us. "Patience by the fans is only important if you have a FO that listens to what they say."
Our FO does not listen to what they say so the fan's patience is not important. It's only important if they do listen.
#gmstrong
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No doubt.
It's still a business selling a product. If the consumer isn't buying the product, the company needs to make some changes.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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What I think he is trying to say is having a plan for improving the team (which everyone concerned wants) is the most important thing ...... so "the fans' patience" is only an overly large concern to a front office that puts such a minor thing at the top of their agenda.
It is worded rather awkwardly, and I don't know if I improved on it at all.
Edit*
Or that the fans' patience is only important to the front office if they inappropriately place such a thing above their plan for improving the team.
I get what he meant now, but that's NOT what he said,,, I made a wise crack and he turned it around on me.. OH well,, what can I say..
..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
You are still reading what you want to read.
Here is how all of that started. I said:
Patience isn't important for the fans...they don't make any of the decisions.
You came back and said Bull or something along those lines.
So, using my quote as the point of reference and setting the context for all the other comments about the importance of patience, his comments made perfect sense and you still are letting it fly over your head.
Sorry man,, but I don't get it. I'm just not seeing it that way. And I've already wasted too much time on this anyway....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No doubt.
It's still a business selling a product. If the consumer isn't buying the product, the company needs to make some changes.
True, but to an extent, the product of the Cleveland Browns is fairly elastic.
Since 1999, they've been putting out a wildly inferior product, and have still managed, what, 95+% of available tickets sold?
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jc...
The only thing the front office should listen to the fans about is ticket and concession prices, and that communication should come through the numbers not from spoken opinion on the matters (because people would still complain if they only charged $1 for tickets)
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Only one real secret to building a winner. Dont be stupid. I think if you look back at what this team has done since Touchdown Tommy, it is just an endless supply of stupid freaking moves.
Instead of building around Bernie, we draft his replacement.
Instead of taking advantage of the Saints in 99, we draft a QB and supply him with zero talent.
Instead of trading either or both Couch and Holcomb, we did nothing but kill both their stock and all we had to show for it was a split locker.
William Green with his drug issues
Drafting a lazy ass with the nickname big money.
Not trading DA when the Boys were begging for him.
How about drafting and trading players for an attacking scheme and playing a zone based 3-4.
Signing Chud to a contract making HC money and then we fire him along with Romeo.
Stopping all interviews and Hiring Mangini and KoKo puffs.
Trading out of #5 for a center and area league talent.
Trading up for RB that had one healthy year since pee wee league.
Signing Jake Delhomme to a 7 mil a year contract.
Hell add in keeping mangini when you wanted to run a 4-3 defense and a WCO.
I think 95% of the normal fan base saw these moves as really dumb moves at the time they were made. I mean it isn't even hindsight, it was just really stupid. How about signing Jeff Faine for a power based in line blocking scheme?? trading with the Ravens so they could get Ngata over Wimbley.
I don't expect albert einstein but damn I would like better than what we have been given.
I agree on every point and would add not assessing talent on the team properly and letting them walk in free agency. add dawson and hillis to this stupidity.
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add dawson and hillis to this stupidity.
You know players have a choice in the matter as well, right? We can't just re-sign players because we want to.
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Quote:
Quote:
add dawson and hillis to this stupidity.
You know players have a choice in the matter as well, right? We can't just re-sign players because we want to.
I don't think that factors in for him.
He still complains about Matt Roth.
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Here's a recipe...
Start off by adding...1 President...1 GM... 1 HC... Combine them together and stir until blended...this is called the FO... by blending... this helps keep everything on the same plate..
Now take and add talent ( the more talent you add will help )..if you don't have talent you can find it in the Draft or FA aisle in your local NFL store..
Add this to the FO and whisk until mixture is smooth....Add some consistency this will help the mixture stay smooth....Let stand one off season ...
Now pour into a bowl....I prefer to use a SuperBowl...Just gives it that award winning look...
Now top it off with smart decisions... add to the practice field, and enjoy your turned around franchise...
Recipe Note....Some prefer to add patience to this recipe....but I don't know if that adds any flavor...jmo...
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Allow me to play off your recipe to make a cake.. The FO is the pan, you need a good pan that is solid and non-stick and will collect the ingredients and hold the whole thing together... The Coach is the mixer that blends together those ingredients into something greater than the sum of the parts. First you will need flour ... the offensive line, you can't make anything work without it. Then eggs ... the defensive line.... together with the flour, these are the foundation of the whole thing and if they suck, the cake will suck... Then you will need sugar and lots of it, these are your linebackers.. the cake will stay together without it, but it won't taste very good. Add butter.. these are your running backs and TEs, they don't have to be great so you can use salted or unsalted, you can even use fake butter to make a good cake but in the end, the RBs and TEs have to be good enough.. having great ones is just a plus. Baking powder.. your secondary.. works hand in hand with the eggs and suger but is the least recognized part... Baking soda .. well that's your QB.. without him, everything else sits flat.. he makes the whole cake rise. Mix it together very well... Bake for a couple seasons on 325 until done.... Now that the cake is done and it's firm and tasty... let it cool and put some icing on it.. that is your WRs... they look great, they get all of the attention, but in reality, without the rest of the cake, they are pretty much useless. Now stick a punter and a kicker decoration on top and serve... 
yebat' Putin
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I have to say that's a damn good analogy. Did you make that up? If so good work!
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you guys are making me hungry 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Allow me to play off your recipe to make a cake..
The FO is the pan, you need a good pan that is solid and non-stick and will collect the ingredients and hold the whole thing together...
The Coach is the mixer that blends together those ingredients into something greater than the sum of the parts.
First you will need flour ... the offensive line, you can't make anything work without it.
Then eggs ... the defensive line.... together with the flour, these are the foundation of the whole thing and if they suck, the cake will suck...
Then you will need sugar and lots of it, these are your linebackers.. the cake will stay together without it, but it won't taste very good.
Add butter.. these are your running backs and TEs, they don't have to be great so you can use salted or unsalted, you can even use fake butter to make a good cake but in the end, the RBs and TEs have to be good enough.. having great ones is just a plus.
Baking powder.. your secondary.. works hand in hand with the eggs and suger but is the least recognized part...
Baking soda .. well that's your QB.. without him, everything else sits flat.. he makes the whole cake rise.
Mix it together very well...
Bake for a couple seasons on 325 until done....
Now that the cake is done and it's firm and tasty... let it cool and put some icing on it.. that is your WRs... they look great, they get all of the attention, but in reality, without the rest of the cake, they are pretty much useless.
Now stick a punter and a kicker decoration on top and serve...
Neat.
Now, someone will come along and say a first round draft qb is the only answer. He would be able to take mud and poo and mold it into a wedding cake good enough for Lebron.
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Quote:
I have to say that's a damn good analogy. Did you make that up? If so good work!
Made that one up all on my own... Thanks.. 
yebat' Putin
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I expect dinner from you ... Your recipe is better... Are you Betty Crocker ?
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Quote:
Quote:
Allow me to play off your recipe to make a cake..
The FO is the pan, you need a good pan that is solid and non-stick and will collect the ingredients and hold the whole thing together...
The Coach is the mixer that blends together those ingredients into something greater than the sum of the parts.
First you will need flour ... the offensive line, you can't make anything work without it.
Then eggs ... the defensive line.... together with the flour, these are the foundation of the whole thing and if they suck, the cake will suck...
Then you will need sugar and lots of it, these are your linebackers.. the cake will stay together without it, but it won't taste very good.
Add butter.. these are your running backs and TEs, they don't have to be great so you can use salted or unsalted, you can even use fake butter to make a good cake but in the end, the RBs and TEs have to be good enough.. having great ones is just a plus.
Baking powder.. your secondary.. works hand in hand with the eggs and suger but is the least recognized part...
Baking soda .. well that's your QB.. without him, everything else sits flat.. he makes the whole cake rise.
Mix it together very well...
Bake for a couple seasons on 325 until done....
Now that the cake is done and it's firm and tasty... let it cool and put some icing on it.. that is your WRs... they look great, they get all of the attention, but in reality, without the rest of the cake, they are pretty much useless.
Now stick a punter and a kicker decoration on top and serve...
Neat.
Now, someone will come along and say a first round draft qb is the only answer. He would be able to take mud and poo and mold it into a wedding cake good enough for Lebron.
The only thing more annoying than people asking for a 1st round QB, is the people complaining about them asking for a 1st round QB...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Yeah.
Especially when those of us "supposedly" against a first round qb actually say "If we can get one without selling out too many picks, then get one".
Sucks to see facts, doesn't it?
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That's actually not at all what I meant, but feel free to flame people for no reason...
I've been avoiding any QB talk lately because all it ever does is turn into a fight, and in that fight, neither side is right...
But continue to think your opinion matters more than others...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
That's actually not at all what I meant, but feel free to flame people for no reason...
I've been avoiding any QB talk lately because all it ever does is turn into a fight, and in that fight, neither side is right...
But continue to think your opinion matters more than others...
Interesting.
I have never thought my opinion matters more. Where you got that from I don't know.
However, my opinion matters as much as any one elses. And guess what? My opinion is, if a qb is there for us at #4, take him. If not, don't sell out the draft to get a "might be".
Get it?
I'd rather take a swing at 4 "might be's" as opposed to dump 4 picks for 1 "might be".
Some on here disagree. That's fine. They can be wrong.
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Quote:
I have never thought my opinion matters more. Where you got that from I don't know.
Quote:
Some on here disagree. That's fine. They can be wrong.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
No doubt.
It's still a business selling a product. If the consumer isn't buying the product, the company needs to make some changes.
True, but to an extent, the product of the Cleveland Browns is fairly elastic.
Since 1999, they've been putting out a wildly inferior product, and have still managed, what, 95+% of available tickets sold?
Oh, no doubt. It is elastic as it gets, it's not like selling a can of car wax that scratches the paint.
I realize there isn't any....or much competition.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Humor. Need I post a laughing guy?
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You forgot the 673 cans of nuts .... otherwise known as the fans ....
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Allow me to play off your recipe to make a cake..
The FO is the pan, you need a good pan that is solid and non-stick and will collect the ingredients and hold the whole thing together...
The Coach is the mixer that blends together those ingredients into something greater than the sum of the parts.
First you will need flour ... the offensive line, you can't make anything work without it.
Then eggs ... the defensive line.... together with the flour, these are the foundation of the whole thing and if they suck, the cake will suck...
Then you will need sugar and lots of it, these are your linebackers.. the cake will stay together without it, but it won't taste very good.
Add butter.. these are your running backs and TEs, they don't have to be great so you can use salted or unsalted, you can even use fake butter to make a good cake but in the end, the RBs and TEs have to be good enough.. having great ones is just a plus.
Baking powder.. your secondary.. works hand in hand with the eggs and suger but is the least recognized part...
Baking soda .. well that's your QB.. without him, everything else sits flat.. he makes the whole cake rise.
Mix it together very well...
Bake for a couple seasons on 325 until done....
Now that the cake is done and it's firm and tasty... let it cool and put some icing on it.. that is your WRs... they look great, they get all of the attention, but in reality, without the rest of the cake, they are pretty much useless.
Now stick a punter and a kicker decoration on top and serve...
The problem with this.
1. Our pan is from Ronco.
2. Our mixer has only one working blade.
3. Our flour got wet on the right side and is stuck together.
4. Our eggs, AA medium.
5. Our sugar turned out to be a sugar substitute.
6. Our baking powder is thin and inconsistent.
7. Our baking soda is soaking up all the stench in the refrigerator and it's time to toss it out.
Tossing all this into the oven at 325, it fell, flat, again.
We need new ingredients, lots of them and I sure as heck hope we don't spend too much on the baking soda.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
The problem with this.
1. Our pan is from Ronco.
2. Our mixer has only one working blade.
3. Our flour got wet on the right side and is stuck together.
4. Our eggs, AA medium.
5. Our sugar turned out to be a sugar substitute.
6. Our baking powder is thin and inconsistent.
7. Our baking soda is soaking up all the stench in the refrigerator and it's time to toss it out.
Tossing all this into the oven at 325, it fell, flat, again.
We need new ingredients, lots of them and I sure as heck hope we don't spend too much on the baking soda.
 Reminds me of the time I accidentally switched the amounts of Baking powder and baking soda. If you screw it up you have to start all over again anyway.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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It takes patience to read every post in this thread, I only got through half of them.
I hope I'm wrong about Pat Schurmur being a part that kills any recipe they have going.
I don't think any thing shown in the games in 2011 looked like a coaching advantage gained from a Schurmur decision.
I hope they can find a way to get this guy to a place where he can help them win games and not totally stand in the way of it.
I hope they can figure it out in 9 months or less and we don't have to watch game by game as they come up with excuses for another double digit loss season.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
1. Our pan is from Ronco.
2. Our mixer has only one working blade.
3. Our flour got wet on the right side and is stuck together.
4. Our eggs, AA medium.
5. Our sugar turned out to be a sugar substitute.
6. Our baking powder is thin and inconsistent.
7. Our baking soda is soaking up all the stench in the refrigerator and it's time to toss it out.
1. Our pan has baked award winning cakes many times before.
2. Our mixer is new, it needs to be broken in a little.
3. Our flour is good if we can dig out the 1/5th that got wet and replace it, then sift it all together.
4. Our eggs are very good.
5. One cup of sugar is very good, the second cup is ok, the third cup spilled in the sink and needs to be replaced.
6. The baking powder we have is good but we don't have enough, need to buy another box to put with what we have.
7. I got no come back on this one.. soaking up the stench... that's good.
We need a few new ingredients without a doubt but we also need to mix it... it's only partially mixed, we have big lumps in it... it's not ready to go into the oven yet, but its close.
yebat' Putin
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Other than Grossi's article about the WCO and how to defend it back in August, this is one of the PD's better stories.
Lubinger lives near me. He is a good man and a great writer. HE should be the beat writer, not Grossi.
josh
Go Browns!
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Quote:
Allow me to play off your recipe to make a cake..
The FO is the pan, you need a good pan that is solid and non-stick and will collect the ingredients and hold the whole thing together...
>>The pan is not non stick
The Coach is the mixer that blends together those ingredients into something greater than the sum of the parts.
>>>WE do not have a mixer but a broken wooden spoon
First you will need flour ... the offensive line, you can't make anything work without it.
>>>We have Half the flour we need.
Then eggs ... the defensive line.... together with the flour, these are the foundation of the whole thing and if they suck, the cake will suck...
>> will have to make due as we are a few eggs short.
Then you will need sugar and lots of it, these are your linebackers.. the cake will stay together without it, but it won't taste very good.
>>we have almost no sugar
Add butter.. these are your running backs and TEs, they don't have to be great so you can use salted or unsalted, you can even use fake butter to make a good cake but in the end, the RBs and TEs have to be good enough.. having great ones is just a plus.
>>dumping Hillis means the cake just lost most of its butter as well.
Baking powder.. your secondary.. works hand in hand with the eggs and suger but is the least recognized part...
> with Brown and a patchwork secondary we have little baking powder.
Baking soda .. well that's your QB.. without him, everything else sits flat.. he makes the whole cake rise.
>>our cake can only rise to its ingredients. it rose only a little.
Mix it together very well...
Bake for a couple seasons on 325 until done....
Now that the cake is done and it's firm and tasty... let it cool and put some icing on it.. that is your WRs... they look great, they get all of the attention, but in reality, without the rest of the cake, they are pretty much useless.
>>we have almost no icing
Now stick a punter and a kicker decoration on top and serve...
so in a sticked pan ,poorly blended lacking in many ingredients we have a bad cake, flat, not sweet almost no icing, almost no butter.
No matter how many season you bake the mixer is BAD. the pan is proving to be not non stick(based on free agency) and we keep tossing away ingredients we do have.
Nice analogy and one bad cake.
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