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However, what if we get that special QB and suddenly Massaquoi returns to the path he was on as a rookie when he averaged over 18 yards/catch? What if Greg Little suddenly becomes that guy who puts up huge amounts of RAC? What if the TE position becomes even more of a strength, with them attacking the seams again for big plays? What if Norwood becomes that 3rd down weapon some of us think that he will be? What if the ball comes out quickly enough that the right side isn't exposed to the QB holding the ball for extended periods of time?
Is anything I have said here outside of the realm of possibility? I don't think so. That's not to say that it is an absolute certainty ...... but a QB can make a big difference in the play of the other players on offense.
As far as the RB, perhaps Hardesty returns to form this year. Perhaps we draft a guy. Maybe Smith has a year under his belt and is ready to contribute. Who knows? Maybe we even draft a guy in the 3rd or 4th round.
On defense, maybe we add another year's growth, and maybe Patterson steps into the starting role across from Haden. Or maybe Skrine steps up. Maybe we draft a guy in the 2nd. Perhaps having Ward return to the lineup helps the defense. Maybe we add a player or 2 in the draft and the defense takes that next step up.
Is that out of the realm of possibility? Who would have believed me if I'd have said that we'd have the 10th ranked defense in the NFL last year ... after starting 2 rookie DL, plus another who was damn near a rookie?
The point is that you just never know when you might be close enough to make that jump .... and what player might put a unit over the top. On offense, that player is most likely to be a QB. On defense it could be a guy from any unit. The point is that you can never say never. Maybe a QB and a couple of key free agent signings is all it takes for the offense to suddenly turn it around. Maybe a key DL signing or draft pick turns the DL into a feared unit, and another LB, added in the middle of the draft, turns the run defense into something no longer resembling a sieve.
You never know what can make the difference, and turn a fubar unit into an effective unit .... but I do know that on offense, the greatest chance for a guy to make the biggest impact comes at QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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However, what if we get that special QB and suddenly Massaquoi returns to the path he was on as a rookie when he averaged over 18 yards/catch? What if Greg Little suddenly becomes that guy who puts up huge amounts of RAC? What if the TE position becomes even more of a strength, with them attacking the seams again for big plays? What if Norwood becomes that 3rd down weapon some of us think that he will be? What if the ball comes out quickly enough that the right side isn't exposed to the QB holding the ball for extended periods of time?
Is anything I have said here outside of the realm of possibility? I don't think so. That's not to say that it is an absolute certainty ...... but a QB can make a big difference in the play of the other players on offense.
It could also be argued then that the current QB could grow and develop as well, having had another off season in the same system. If you allow for growth from other positions and players, you have to allow for the possibility of growth from the QB position and current QB as well.
I'm not saying McCoy is or isn't the answer, but I think you have too many ifs to foresake too many draft choices in the hopes that a QB makes so many people that much better. Maybe he would and maybe he wouldn't, but it's a big gamble. To be sure though, that the QB position (like many on this team) needs an upgrade. The question is whether or not that upgrade can come from within.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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Blah blah blah.. LOL
Same ole thing.
Look, I understand the importance of a QB.. I get it..I don't need to be schooled on it.
What I don't believe in is giving up your draft or at least the top picks in this and next years, to get a guy that is probably gonna be great, but no guarantees, and still having all the damn holes we have now.
With a solid team around him, we can win with an average QB until you find the guy that takes you over the top...
that's all I'm saying..
Nothing more, nothing less... and yeah, that's just My Opinion..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Matt Lienart style happens
this probably goes here in the misconceptions thread:
if we decide to just stick with McCoy and bring in some veteran to push him in case he falls on his face (again), then we could bring in Vince Young. an alltime TX best QB royal rumble to the death (of starting in the NFL).
sure, VY was essentially kicked out of Tenn and has some big emotional problems that won't go over well in Cleveland (we're not the nicest of towns to our QBs). sure, VY is probably one of only a very small handful of QBs that actually looked bad when being coached by Andy Reid.
but, VY vs. Colt essentially assures all of us Austin, TX fans that the games will get picked up here and that's what really matters
*note* this post was for entertainment purposes only. the views in this post are not the views of this poster nor should they be taken seriously as they were all said with sarcasm.
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no logo, It's sad but true that people are so uptight on this board that you needed that disclaimer! The post was awesome! 
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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thank you sir. this thread seemed like it needed some levity added to it 
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With a solid team around him, we can win with an average QB until you find the guy that takes you over the top...
And how do you find that guy who takes you over the top unless you're in the position to grab him?
Franchise QB's don't grow on trees. They must be drafted in the top 5. If you don't take him now then you WILL have to mortgage the farm when you're picking #19 ad don't have the luxury of an extra 1st round pick to move up in the future.
Now or never. We haven't drafted a QB high since Couch. 13 years ago. No other franchise who doesn't have their franchise guy has gone as long (and the ones who haven't have been stuck in mediocrity since 2000). It's time.
Last edited by Ammo; 01/20/12 11:09 AM.
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With a solid team around him, we can win with an average QB until you find the guy that takes you over the top...
And how do you find that guy who takes you over the top unless you're in the position to grab him?
Franchise QB's don't grow on trees. They must be drafted in the top 5. If you don't take him now then you WILL have to mortgage the farm when you're picking #19 ad don't have the luxury of an extra 1st round pick to move up in the future.
Now or never. We haven't drafted a QB high since Couch. 13 years ago. No other franchise has gone as long. It's time.
Pretty much through the normal channels.. You either Draft them or sign them in FA, or trade for them.
I mean, GB found Brett Favre in Atlanta and gave up a 1st round pick for him.
Using GB again, they got Aaron Rodgers at 22 in the first round of the draft.
Seattle got hassleback in a trade with (yeah yeah) green bay.
I keep using Green Bay and Seattle because our president is rooted in both those organizations., so he's seen it first hand.
The point is, some of you guys are acting like Andrew Luck is the LAST GREAT QB ever to land on this planet...
he's not, they'll be others and if we have the right front office, they'll find them.
What's really bad about this, I don't think anything short of handing over our entire draft this year and some of next will get indy to part with that pick.
#GMSTRONG
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and if you want to go further back in Holmgren's history, he also was apart of getting Steve Young to SF to backup and then takeover for Joe Montana.
#gmstrong
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and if you want to go further back in Holmgren's history, he also was apart of getting Steve Young to SF to backup and then takeover for Joe Montana.
LOL Yeah, I kinda stopped going back because someone would tell me that that was then, this is now and the league is so much different.
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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All I know is what I see : Holmgren has delivered JD.... Wallace ... McCoy to us !
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All I know is what I see : Holmgren has delivered JD.... Wallace ... McCoy to us !
OhHell,, I bet he forgot that he had to be PERFECT to please Browns Fans
Someone quick,, Call him to give him the news.. 
As if no other team pres or GM or Coach has ever picked the wrong guy.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
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All I know is what I see : Holmgren has delivered JD.... Wallace ... McCoy to us !
OhHell,, I bet he forgot that he had to be PERFECT to please Browns Fans
Someone quick,, Call him to give him the news..
As if no other team pres or GM or Coach has ever picked the wrong guy.
Im not going to lie on this. I really hope Holmgren isnt picking our QB at all. I want Heckert doing that. Here is why Im sure Mike is great at working with QB's and getting the most out of them however as far as picking them it was Ron Wolf who got him Farve. Not sure but guessing it was Wolf again who picked Hasselback (sp?) Mike then traded for him.
Then we have McCoy who is a servicable backup at worst. Given the time he may grow into something but he was Mikes selection, I liked it myself at the time and I wish he could have sat that first year and this year as well but we had no other options.
Colt now has playing time under his belt and if Heckert doesnt like any of the QB's in this draft I dont want Mike over ruling him to get us another project. Mike has done the Mangini/GM thing at seattle and failed and I dont trust him with our picks, at al, esp with the QB.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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However, what if we get that special QB and suddenly Massaquoi returns to the path he was on as a rookie when he averaged over 18 yards/catch? What if Greg Little suddenly becomes that guy who puts up huge amounts of RAC? What if the TE position becomes even more of a strength, with them attacking the seams again for big plays? What if Norwood becomes that 3rd down weapon some of us think that he will be? What if the ball comes out quickly enough that the right side isn't exposed to the QB holding the ball for extended periods of time?
Is anything I have said here outside of the realm of possibility? I don't think so. That's not to say that it is an absolute certainty ...... but a QB can make a big difference in the play of the other players on offense.
It could also be argued then that the current QB could grow and develop as well, having had another off season in the same system. If you allow for growth from other positions and players, you have to allow for the possibility of growth from the QB position and current QB as well.
I'm not saying McCoy is or isn't the answer, but I think you have too many ifs to foresake too many draft choices in the hopes that a QB makes so many people that much better. Maybe he would and maybe he wouldn't, but it's a big gamble. To be sure though, that the QB position (like many on this team) needs an upgrade. The question is whether or not that upgrade can come from within.
There is that possibility, but it is a remote possibility IMHO.
I have seen how McCoy plays the position, and he has some fairly major "structural" flaws that must be torn down and rebuilt in order for him to become an effective NFL starter. The problem is that I don't see him ever progressing beyond "effective", even if everything goes right for him. I do not ever see him as being the difference maker in an AFC Championship game between 2 top teams ...... and/or 2 top QBs. I think that we lose that particular battle almost every time, even if McCoy reaches his upper limits. He is the 4tf best starting QB in our division right now. he will not pass Roethlisberger. It is doubtful that he will pass Flacco. (who was also beset with drops this year) Dalton looks like a much better option already, and he's a rookie. That's just our division. I don't see McCoy as having comparable physical tools, and I don't see him having the instinctual and on field abilities that the other QBs in our division bring.
Unfortunately, in today's NFL you rarely see a player get 3 or 4 years to prove himself. McCoy has had 22 games. Each of his 1st 2 years have seen him miss time with injury. He has regressed in some ways from last year to this. If you look for trends with players, which I think most teams do, then his trends don't look good.
I also know that the team will look at every player as an island. Did they do their job independent of what everyone else around them did? Were they in the right spot? Did they catch the ball properly? Did they block their man to the proper position on the field? The list goes on ....... I think that they will appraise the QB the same way ...... Did he throw the ball to the proper place, on time ...did he make the right read, quickly .... did he place the ball properly so the receiver can gain yards after the catch ....? (vital in the WCO) Again, there is a very long list, and I think that they will use that list to appraise McCoy's performance, and I do believe that they will find him lacking to the point that he is holding back other players.
That's my best educated guess what will happen.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Who the hell put a burr under your saddle ? 
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Thanks, YTown. I asked a question in another thread about your feelings for McCoy and Griffin, but you answered it here. So you don't have to search, it was basically, are you that against McCoy or that in favor of Griffin. Again, what you just posted, answers it.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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Thank you for hearing me out.
I am curious as to your feelings on the position.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Who the hell put a burr under your saddle ?
Dumb comments usually put a burr under my saddle.. wait, I don't have a saddle.. cripes,, where the hell is the burr 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Ah, I see . You find my comment dumb ... Ok.
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Ah, I see . You find my comment dumb ... Ok.
Not sure,, was it you that said this:
Quote:
All I know is what I see : Holmgren has delivered JD.... Wallace ... McCoy to us !
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Ah, I see . You find my comment dumb ... Ok.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Well that's what you get for criticizing the front office in any way. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Well that's what you get for criticizing the front office in any way.
no, he, you anyone on here can criticize them all they want, but if you make a comment like that, it seems reasonable to tell the whole story, not just part of it like our politicians do..
#GMSTRONG
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Thank you for hearing me out.
I am curious as to your feelings on the position.
I really am torn. I know we need better play from the QB. I also think we need better play from the rest of the offense. I'd like to see more plays stretch the field, but I wonder if we really have the WRs that can do it. I remember watching Green Bay this year a few times and seeing the cushion the DBs would give their WRs because they were afraid of being beating deep. Then Rodgers would hit one on a 5 yd. slant that turned into a 20 yard + play. I'd see DBs playing up on our WRs because they had no fear of a deep pass. So the question I asked was: Do they have no fear of our WRs or our QB? I think it's a combination of both.
In addition, I think the running game suffered tremendously due to the year Hillis had. (Not blaming him, but it was what it was.) Consequently, the passing game suffered.
On the surface, I'd say we need better play from our QB. I think adding more weapons, rediscovering our running game, and another off season can help McCoy tremendously. As for Griffin, I just think I'm old school (for better or worse) and like a drop back passer. For some reason I see him as a guy with a rifle arm who will run if the first option to pass isn't available, rather than go through the progression. If our offense is going to continue to feature short passes, then I don't think it makes sense to trade draft picks to move up to get him. I think those picks are better suited to add more weapons. If we do plan to open things up (and I think we were vanilla for the purpose of mastering the basics before moving on) then maybe he is just what we need.
I know that was a noncommital response, but I just don't know. My overall belief is that no matter who the QB is, we need a #1 receiver, some help on the right side of the line, and help in the running game (if Hillis leaves). My choice for our first pick is still Blackmon or even Kalil if he's there, but I'll support whomever the team drafts because I know they have more knowledge and resources than I do!
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Well its really not all that false of a statement though.
Holmgren has done what exactly? Hes gotten us Heckert which I will say is his best move. He signed Jake and brought Wallace and Tom even said Colt was Mikes choice not his. Then add in he brought us Shurmur a first time head coach and recommended to him if he didnt find a OC he liked he should do the job by himself. Shurmur was clearly overwhelmed this year by that single move alone.
Then Mike says that we will get a OC but that doesnt mean that Pat has to give up the play calling duties again giving Pat an excuse to continue down a road that he clearly isnt ready for.
The only thing Mike was good at was coaching in his career before coming here and I see nothing besides the hiring of Heckert that tells me he is good at being a president as well.
Some will also point to the whole Mangini thing which I think is fair to talk about, why give the guy a year if you had no real intentions on keeping him?
So to keep this on topic as I said a few posts above I want Mike having no part of our draft esp when it comes to picking a QB. If he wants to teach them stuff great but let Tom make the picks.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Didn't say it was false.. I said it was incomplete..
#GMSTRONG
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ok my bad, we now return to our regularly scheduled discussions. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Thanks for the reply.
One thing I remember from when Shurmur took over was the general opinion that we would not need that "#1 receiver", because the WCO is predicated on spreading the ball around. I happen to believe there is some real truth to that. The WCO doesn't need a guy who used his physical talents to get open because the play design creates openings for receivers. Precision is more important than sheer size and/or speed.
For that reason, I am hesitant to go spending high draft picks on receivers. Ditto for the fact that I believe that a great QB can bring receivers along with him. Somehow the Steelers get better production from a 2nd and 3rd rounder than they ever did from a 1st round pick. The Steelers had Santonio Holmes, yet who was just as often their leading receiver? Yep, reliable, precise Hines Ward.
I look back to the best stretch of years we have had in the past 3 decades or so, and our leading receivers were a 2nd rounder and a 7th round pick. We had a solid, and not even superstar QB at the time. He knew where to go with the ball at all times, and had impeccable ball placement. He knew how to hit the open guy, and how to put the ball on the receiver before he was actually running open. He had remarkable anticipation. I see these as things we lack right now more than a #1 receiver, and in fact, a number one receiver will not change these flaws at their core. They have nothing to do with the receivers.
Anyway .... I appreciate the debate.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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See, I look at it a little differently...
I don't want to go out and get that #1 WR to have a guy that will take over the game and be unbeatable. That's not our game anymore (WCO).
I want a true #1 receiver because having him out there will make the other WR positions better. Each and every one of our WRs need to be bumped down 1 position. Greg Little as our #1 is not a matchup I like. Same with MoMass. Cribbs being out there consistently is not something I like. In my opinion, Cribbs it still getting run out there as our #2/#3 because we just don't have the talent at that position to push him down.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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