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Receivers become weapons because of who is pulling the trigger.
Put Victor Cruz on our team and he is likely Carlton Mitchell. We're all sitting around debating the potential this UDFA has, and how exciting it would be if only he could develop .......... and many are probably lamenting why we have to have a crappy receiver like him, who can't run the right routes or get open, when we "should be" drafting receivers in the 1st round. (because that's really the only place where you find great receiver help)
We had Lance Moore. We cut him. We also had David Patten. Both guys played in Super Bowls ...... with other teams, and other QBs, because they could only be weapons with the right player pulling the trigger.
The Steelers pull receivers out of the 2nd and 3rd rounds and they succeed. Why? The Pats have guys who were undrafted ...... and rejected elsewhere. The Packers leading receiver, Jordy Nelson, was a 2nd round pick. Their 2nd most productive receiver (Jennings) was also taken in the 2nd. They have 7th rounder Donald Driver ..... who has had a great career .......
Why do some teams have great receivers fall out of the sky, while others struggle to find receivers at all? In large part it's because of the guy who takes the snaps.
I would bet money that we could have had 3rd rounder Mike Wallace, and UDFAs Victor Cruz and Wes Welker on our team, along with a huge list of other players who came from humbler beginnings as receivers on our team and we would still be looking for receivers. Receivers need a QB to throw them the ball. Everything they do requires that another player does his job correctly first. If you don't have the QB right then you can never really have the WR position right.
If we get the right guy to pull the trigger then we can create weapons, and have weapons develop. With the wrong guy pulling the trigger, weapons rust away ... unused or ill used, until they are tossed aside in the hopes of finding a better weapon.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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hard for me to argue with that.
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Put Victor Cruz on our team and he is likely Carlton Mitchell.
yt...question...If Victor Cruz were on the Browns last season, why would anyone believe he would be like Carlton Mitchell?
Cruz on the Browns last season he would be like Greg Little without Little's dropped passes.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Really? Based on what?
Cruz was originally thought of as more of a possession receiver. he was a raw receiver, who ran less than perfect routes.
Mitchell is a bigger receiver than Cruz. He is slightly faster too. He was a training camp cult hero. How has Mitchell developed? How many great receivers have we had?
QBs make receivers. One day, hopefully, we'll have a great QB again, and we'll miraculously find receivers.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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For those "statophiles" ...
Dude, for the shear number of stats you post to prove your points you've become about the last guy to call anyone else a "statophile".  I mean, really.
#gmstrong
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I don't know about anyone else ..... but I want to win Super Bowls. If we are going to do that then we better find that special QB who can take us there.
I agree, but to find one, one has to be available for us to get. That's why I've been thinking that if we can't trade up for Luck and if our FO doesn't feel that confident in Griffin, we might want to see if we can trade down again, pick up another 1st round pick, and see if there's someone available next season
I agree with this 100%. I think Luck is one of those Qb's , I don't know if RGIII is or isn't. If our front office thinks RGIII is then I would be ok with moving up to get him (Though if Peyton goes to Washington and Flynn signs with Miami then I think RGIII "falls" to us). BUT if the FO does not truly believe that RGIII is "The Guy" then move down, get another 1st next and and be prepared to get "The Guy" next year. And yes waiting yet another year to get our man would stink but it is better than drafting a 1st round Qb this year just to draft a Qb in the 1st round.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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I think that's what YTown calls his fans.
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I've actually been a huge advocate for getting Campbell since the end of the offseason.
It would be a great competition between him and McCoy.
Lover, we don't need a competition between McCoy and anybody.
We need somebody who will step in and wax McCoys ass.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Really? Based on what?
Cruz was originally thought of as more of a possession receiver. he was a raw receiver, who ran less than perfect routes.
Based common sense...Cruz is one of the best in the NFL...dude can catch the ball.
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Mitchell is a bigger receiver than Cruz. He is slightly faster too. He was a training camp cult hero. How has Mitchell developed? How many great receivers have we had?
He was a training camp cult hero...what the heck does that mean?...they got a stat for that?
Didn't Mitchell have surgery before the season? Missed a lot of games and never attained "cult hero" status after the surgery.
Didn't Mitchell come out of college early?...didn't play see much action as a rookie and lost his cult hero status after having surgery before pre season started in 2011...
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QBs make receivers. One day, hopefully, we'll have a great QB again, and we'll miraculously find receivers.
AND...receivers help to make QBs...But always remember, without an offensive line to protect the QB, both the QB and receivers fail to reach their potential...
Patience, Browns fans...construction in progress...the Browns will add more weapons for our QBs...and with the advantage of a real off season, the Browns offense should be improved going into next season
...the glass is half full... 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I don't know about anyone else ..... but I want to win Super Bowls. If we are going to do that then we better find that special QB who can take us there.
I agree, but to find one, one has to be available for us to get. That's why I've been thinking that if we can't trade up for Luck and if our FO doesn't feel that confident in Griffin, we might want to see if we can trade down again, pick up another 1st round pick, and see if there's someone available next season
I agree with this 100%. I think Luck is one of those Qb's , I don't know if RGIII is or isn't. If our front office thinks RGIII is then I would be ok with moving up to get him (Though if Peyton goes to Washington and Flynn signs with Miami then I think RGIII "falls" to us). BUT if the FO does not truly believe that RGIII is "The Guy" then move down, get another 1st next and and be prepared to get "The Guy" next year. And yes waiting yet another year to get our man would stink but it is better than drafting a 1st round Qb this year just to draft a Qb in the 1st round.
This is exactly what Im thinking as well except perhaps the moving up part. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Lover, we don't need a competition between McCoy and anybody.
We need somebody who will step in and wax McCoys ass.
u just made my day w/ that one.. 
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(Though if Peyton goes to Washington and Flynn signs with Miami then I think RGIII "falls" to us).
Those counting on Peyton Manning going to another team need to understand the type of injury he is dealing with.
...Manning's 3rd surgery, a spinal fusion... where a damaged/bulging disc is removed and a piece of bone is placed between the two vertebrae and secured with metal plates and screws. It takes about 3-4 months for the bone to fuse to the vertebrae.
The fusion part of the surgery went as predicted, but something that was not predicted has resulted...Manning is left with numbness and weakness in his arms. So far, therapy has not helped to reduce the symptoms Manning now has.
If Manning does not recover fully, without numbness and weakness, no other team is going to want to be responsible for putting Manning on the football field, IMO.
I doubt that Manning can pass a team physical if the numbness does not go away and if he does not regain full strength in his arms.
It is possible that Manning might want more time to see if his condition improves, which would mean the Colts or another team carries Manning until he improves or not. But I doubt that any team want to take a chance of paralyzing a future hall fame Qb, who is 36 yrs old and done it all.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Peen - you are absolutely right. If someone thinks that by signing Campbell (or Flynn or anyone else for that matter) will be in a tight competition with McCoy then they should be against signing that person. Either upgrade significantly or stick with what ya got.
Nick - If you think a guy is "The Guy" then you go get him - as long as the price is reasonable.
Mac - that was just one potential hypothetical scenario. I don't think anybody is counting on it.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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LOL We have a kid in Cruz who is a deep ball threat ...... and we have a QB (actually 2) who never throw deep, even when guys are open ........ and/or who miss guys badly, even when they are wide open.
No, I don't see Cruz being anything but a training camp cut if he'd been a member of the Cleveland Browns because we do not have a QB who could have brought out his talents and showcased his abilities.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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For those "statophiles" ...
Dude, for the shear number of stats you post to prove your points you've become about the last guy to call anyone else a "statophile". I mean, really.
Actually I use both stats and observations ...... but whatever. Stats have their place in a football debate, or else they wouldn't keep them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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But it seems many of your observations are based on stats.
#gmstrong
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Some are, others are not.
I have said all along that there can be stats, for example completion percentage, that can lie based on the types of passes being thrown, and the ability of the receiver to do anything at all after the catch based upon ball placement. I have used stats, and many other examples of play in my arguments on this board. If someone brings up stats, I may use stats to rebut them. In other cases a case can be made, for example the recent conversation on receivers, where observations and examples work better than stats. (or even evaluating a guy like RG3 and his ability to loft a ball right over the head of a receiver and drop it right into the basket)
Sometimes stats have meaning. When they are broken down to performance under extreme pressure, for example, they can be telling. I used Eli Manning's 4th quarter stats, for example, to debate, in part, why he is a better option than Campbell. There can be value in stats. They don't tell the whole story, but they do have their uses, if taken and used in context.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Jason Campbell is no better than Seneca Wallace. I would like to get Deshaun Jackson in FA and then trade down and get Quinton Coples, Mike Adams and Chase Minnifield. Give Colt a chance and you will see him rise up the McCoy-O-Meter.
Don't forget to resign Hillis and Jackson.
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Jason Campbell is no better than Seneca Wallace.
I'm not one to state someones opinion is "wrong"
But that's just not very accurate...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I can see why he would say that. Campbell does give me the same kind of feeling as Wallace. The problem with that line of thinking is that Campbell has started (and done alright) everywhere he went, while Wallace has only been a backup.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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If it is a known undisputed fact that Campbell is a better player then I'm all for going after him. I haven't seen him do anything special. I think Seneca could win with a better offense around him but he won't ever elevate everyone else. I saw Campbell the same way but obviously I am wrong.
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I'd have a hard time arguing the statement "Jason Campbell will do no better for the Browns than Seneca Wallace" based on a couple factors.
-He's not the long-term solution
-He's not going to be as familiar with the offense as Seneca
-He's not enough of a talent upgrade to overcome the first two points
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Exactly. Are we really going to be excited if the Brown's brass decides Campbell is a little bit better than Colt and Seneca but we have to be patient while he learns the offense. The thought makes me throw up a little bit in my mouth. I know stats are for losers, but if you compare the first two years of Colt and Campbell they are almost identical. The only difference is Campbell was a first round pick and was being groomed to take over while Colt received nothing but hazing his rookie year and then was thrown into one of the worst schedules imaginable. Then Colt had to completely relearn a new offense with only Brett Favre to coach him on a ranch. Then Colt had to throw to guys that have either been cut or should be. Campbell, despite not being completely set up to fail, has really never shown much improvement over the years in better offenses with better coaching and better talent around him. Yes, I'm excited to go get him  If we can't get a franchise guy then I think Colt and Seneca are decent enough stop gaps until we find one.
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I just wanted to make a distinction between the two statements. Jason Campbell is better than Wallace, but I don't think bringing him in really does much for the Browns. A couple posters above made a good point that, while the talent level will be upgraded, will it really make a difference? Prolly not.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I can understand the sentiment that says a better qb won't do as well as Colt since he would be new to the offense. However, for those unaware, Jim Zorn ran a version of the WCO with Campbell. Furthermore, Chilly won't be running the exact same offense as Shurmer, so in essence both qb's would be starting from similar places. Of course Campbell has seen far more things than Colt, which swings the advantage back to Campbell.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Chilly might call the plays. He may throw in a few more wrinkles or design some new plays but for the most part this will still be Shurmer's offense. I will be shocked if Shurmer's offense is completely scrapped and Chilly installs something brand new. Campbell would also eat up more cap room than McCoy. In his six seasons has Campbell ever made the playoffs? Campbell might end up being a slight improvement as a stop gap but he isn't worth it. Keep Colt and Seneca until a real solution is found.
McCoy-O-Meter status- heart beat detected. Will rise fast once we get a good RT and true #1 WR
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McCoy-O-Meter status- heart beat detected. Will rise fast once we get a good RT and true #1 WR
Sorry, but I disagree. QBs make their weapons, not the other way around. The best QBs in this league make their weapons great rather than waiting for great weapons. McCoy might reach average standing one day as a QB, but I believe that is his ceiling and he's nowhere near that level yet. I do not see teams making, and winning Super Bowls with average QBs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Furthermore, Chilly won't be running the exact same offense as Shurmer, so in essence both qb's would be starting from similar places
I sincerely - deeply, vehemently - doubt that what is run in '12 will be so different from '11 that it'll be like starting over for the current players.
We spent all of last season laying groundwork for the future, we're NOT going to be scrapping anything.
What we'll see from Chilly will be building upon what is already in place, that's it. Yes, that is just my opinion, but that's mostly because ANY other approach is patently stupid at this stage.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Furthermore, Chilly won't be running the exact same offense as Shurmer, so in essence both qb's would be starting from similar places
I sincerely - deeply, vehemently - doubt that what is run in '12 will be so different from '11 that it'll be like starting over for the current players.
We spent all of last season laying groundwork for the future, we're NOT going to be scrapping anything.
What we'll see from Chilly will be building upon what is already in place, that's it. Yes, that is just my opinion, but that's mostly because ANY other approach is patently stupid at this stage.
Absolutly.. I can't see Chilly interviewing with Shurmur, Heckert and Holmgren and saying,,, well, looks like I gotta start all over again 
Can't forget, Shurmur and Chilly worked together for a lotta years in Philly...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Furthermore, Chilly won't be running the exact same offense as Shurmer, so in essence both qb's would be starting from similar places
I sincerely - deeply, vehemently - doubt that what is run in '12 will be so different from '11 that it'll be like starting over for the current players.
We spent all of last season laying groundwork for the future, we're NOT going to be scrapping anything.
What we'll see from Chilly will be building upon what is already in place, that's it. Yes, that is just my opinion, but that's mostly because ANY other approach is patently stupid at this stage.
prpl...the Browns hired Chilly and he has his own WCO playbook which will most likely be combined with Shurmur's WCO playbook.
I'm confident saying, both playbooks have similarities...the basic plays, basic terminology. But I'm also confident that Childress is going to be allowed to add his ideas to the playbook Shurmur used last season. There is no way around it, the offensive players will have to learn some new plays from Chilly's playbook...how many and how extensive those additions will be is anyone's guess.
Something to think about...Childress was fired with month left in the 2010 season. I'm sure Childress took some time off to get over all the emotional events that lead to his firing...he likely did some soul searching and analyzing...but after all that, what does someone like Chilly do with the extra time he now has on his hands?
If you are an Xs and Os guy and have time on your hands, you work on Xs and Os. I wouldn't be shocked if Chilly came up with some new ideas and concepts, expanding his WCO playbook.
Looking at Campbell's play when Zorn took over for Gibbs and again when Campbell changed teams going from the Redskins to the Raiders...it does not appear that learning a new offense has been a problem for Campbell.
Bottom line, who ever is playing QB for the Browns will be learning some new stuff that Chilly will be adding to last season's playbook.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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McCoy-O-Meter status- heart beat detected. Will rise fast once we get a good RT and true #1 WR
Sorry, but I disagree. QBs make their weapons, not the other way around. The best QBs in this league make their weapons great rather than waiting for great weapons. McCoy might reach average standing one day as a QB, but I believe that is his ceiling and he's nowhere near that level yet. I do not see teams making, and winning Super Bowls with average QBs.
You don't disagree. You just didn't read the whole post. I completely agree that QBs make their weapons (N. Orleans, Indy, Pats, etc). We just don't have one of those and I don't think one will be available to us. If you think Campbell is that guy then great, but I don't. So until we find one of those guys, I think we should stick with Colt. If H & H think that any of those guys like Flynn, Campbell, Kolb, RG3 are franchise guys then we should do anything and everything to get them. I just don't think any of those guys can raise the level of play of everyone else like you are saying. (If you made it to the end of this post I hope you understand my point now)
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See I don't see his "McCoy-O-Meter" rising fast no matter what he is given.
I have no problem with getting a #1 receiver (although I think that he would be wasted as a downfield threat with McCoy under Center) and a RT ....... but I don't see it making enough of a difference with this QB.
I do think that there are 2 franchise level QBs in this draft, and those guys are Luck and RG3. I would do whatever I could to make sure that one of them is playing in Cleveland next year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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See I don't see his "McCoy-O-Meter" rising fast no matter what he is given.
We know
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Furthermore, Chilly won't be running the exact same offense as Shurmer, so in essence both qb's would be starting from similar places
I sincerely - deeply, vehemently - doubt that what is run in '12 will be so different from '11 that it'll be like starting over for the current players.
We spent all of last season laying groundwork for the future, we're NOT going to be scrapping anything.
What we'll see from Chilly will be building upon what is already in place, that's it. Yes, that is just my opinion, but that's mostly because ANY other approach is patently stupid at this stage.
Once we improve a spot or 3, (QB, WR, RT) this offense will look a whole lot better .... no matter who is calling plays.
I am reminded of how Arians sucked at calling plays when he was here. Hmm .... he won a Super Bowl in Pittsburgh and went to another. Brian Daboll's offense looked much better in Miami given just slightly better players at a couple of key spots ...... mainly QB.
Marty Schottenheimer once said that play calling is overrated. I think, to a degree, that he was right. Obviously you want a creative offense, and one that takes advantage of your players' strengths ...... but if you can run block than a run on 1st down isn't necessarily a bad thing .... even if you do it 10 1st downs in a row. If a play works, then it was a good call. It's when players don't execute, and plays don't work as a result, that play caller take massive heat.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,579
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,579 |
'Toad,
I can't argue that Campbell would be better than what we have on the roster. What I argue is if it's worth it to go out and get him. I really don't think that it is. You look for 'the guy' until you've found him. We have stopgaps coming out of our ears right now. No need to tack on another.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
McCoy might reach average standing one day as a QB, but I believe that is his ceiling and he's nowhere near that level yet. I do not see teams making, and winning Super Bowls with average QBs.
Depends on where you see his ceiling.. a lot of teams have made and won super bowls with QBs who looked pretty average in their first and second year and people questioned their ceiling..
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
McCoy might reach average standing one day as a QB, but I believe that is his ceiling and he's nowhere near that level yet. I do not see teams making, and winning Super Bowls with average QBs.
Depends on where you see his ceiling.. a lot of teams have made and won super bowls with QBs who looked pretty average in their first and second year and people questioned their ceiling..
in similar news, Eli Manning is starting his 2nd superbowl on Sunday.
yes, he was a #1 overall pick, but he looked terrible in NY the first 3.5 years he started and alot of people thought he was a bust.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
He is one of the best examples.. and there are others.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
He is one of the best examples.. and there are others.
But, but, but.................that can't be!!!! You mean to tell me that a first round draft pick didn't look good in his first 2 or 3 or 3 1/2 years??????????
Blasphemy. Can't be true. The Browns are/should be willing to sell the farm to get the latest and greatest qb to ever come out of this draft........and if we do, we'll be a 10 win to 14 win team for the next decade.
How dare you insinuate that a qb needs time???
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,263
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,263 |
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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