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As an aside, here's something that I find telling. There's been more than one poster say they are fine if the team keeps McCoy, and they are fine if they replace him.
Man, if a guy really and honestly believes a player has "it" they would NEVER be fine with that player being replaced...
Sometimes people are wrong. For example, nobody knew Drew Brees would become as good as he's become. I had no idea. I figured he was on the downward end of his career after that shoulder surgery when he moved to the Saints anyway. And he wasn't that great in San Diego.
Also, just because we aren't satisfied with our QB, doesn't mean we're looking for an immediate other option. If there isn't a good option, it makes no sense to take it. If the FO doesn't want RG3, it sure would be stupid to draft him, just because he's supposed to be a 1st round pick.
One of the things I'm thinking more about is possibly looking for a trade down again so that we can get a 1st round pick next year. Something that can continuously give us ammo so that we can move up in the draft and get ourselves a 1st round QB.
Unfortunately, this year we're at an amazing position to move up and the team at the number 1 pick has a player they probably don't want to let go. If our team improves to 8-8 or something next year, moving up will be a lot harder to get an elite QB
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Where could you fairly rate McCoy " in the current offense" amoung Qb's that might, or todays, quarterback. Today meaning the upcoming season.
If you can't Fairly rate him " in the current offense" as being any more effective than maybe 29th in the league, and 5, 6, or 7, new faces coming into the picture, he's going to fall. Or he's going to improve. Either way, it would feel better if they used their investments to at least gamble on an upgrade.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Brees was great with the Chargers. His 3rd year was troubled, and IIRC, he battled injury that year. However, in his 3rd season, with Rivers expected to blow him out of the job, he responded in superior fashion.
When he hit free agency, Marty went to war trying to keep him in San Diego. However, the Chargers were worried, as most teams were, about his shoulder ....... and they had this Rivers kid sitting around making millions and millions, and who they were fairly sure could play.
It should be remembered, though, that Brees' final 2 years in San Diego were very, very good.
In 2004 he completed % of his passes for 3159 yards, 7.90 per attempt, 27 TD and only 7 INT.
The Chargers went 12-4 in 2004.
In 2005, Brees' last year in San Diego, he completed 64.6% of his passes for 3576 yards, 24 TD, 15 INT and 7.15 yards/attempt.
The Chargers went 9-7 in 2005.
Brees improved when he went to New Orleans,but it wasn't some night and day change. (until this year with his 46 TD passes) He threw 27 in San Diego, and gradually worked his way into the mid 30s per year in New Orleans.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Ref's, I want Mac banned.
I don't know who hacked his account, but its crystal-clear that this isn't the same person who has been posting under that username for the last decade. This person is playing nice and won't evily banter. 
You mellowing, Mac? 
Man, my "telling" point revolves around Mccoy. Usually with a qb in his position there are still numerous supporters who clearly believe the player has it. With Mccoy, for the those who aren't ready to move on from him, they aren't all resolute in their support. Many can only muster the sentiment of "well, if the FO says he can play, I guess I'm ok with keeping him.
That's not an endorsement I would want, hehe.
Campbell is but one of several viable options to move on. I really like the idea of hedging my bets by taking a guy like Richardson or Blackmon, who are much safer bets than Griffin, while still having that #22 to take yet another safe guy, like a guard or RT.
I just come from the angle that mccoy is done, and I'm trying to explore the wisest way to fix things. I do know one very plausible way is to leave mccoy as-is, spend the two first's on other positions, and take one of the two or three project guys. I despise that idea. That isn't the way to go IMHO, and I am not the guy who will toe the company line just because they are calling the shots. We've been down that road, and they've all flamed out since 99.
Mccoy is still the longshot he was when drafted. There are better ways to get to where we need to go.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If nothing else, he might be an OK backup.
So of the 7 or 8 different types of throws that are required to be a successful NFL QB you state that McCoy can only make 1 of them.. and he can sometimes make another if he is rolling to the right.... and then you claim that he might make a good back-up? 
Do you want a back-up whose only redeeming quality is that he can hit a post from 15 yards away? I can find HS QBs that can do that. Why would a FO keep a guy like that on an NFL roster? Don't you want to have some chance to win if your back-up is called upon?
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They can believe that he is as good as he is ever going to be, and still see value with him as a backup ........ or even hope that he might get better even while not expecting it.
If you think a guy is no good and have no real expectation of him getting better then you cut him as soon as you can... plain and simple. Cut him and get a QB to start and then take another guy in the 6th round to be the back-up.. take a 6th rounder that can hit a post and maybe do one other thing well.. and you are ahead right?
I believe we will find somebody, whether it's Flynn or RGIII or Tannehill, and try to make them the starter.. but I do not believe that the FO has nearly as low of an opinion as Colt as you do...
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Brees was great with the Chargers.
In 2 of his 5 years and because somebody wasn't willing to yank him after his first 3 years, in which he didn't show much at all. In his first year he didn't play. In his second year he started and was average at best. In his 3rd year he was bad, injuries and what not aside. In his 4th year he had a great year. In his 5th year he had a really good but not great year...
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because somebody wasn't willing to yank him after his first 3 years, in which he didn't show much at all
except SD was very willing to yank Brees, which is why they drafted Rivers #4 overall (after drafting Eli Manning #1 overall and trading him).
in fact, if Rivers does not hold out into the middle of August that summer, then there is a very real chance that SD would have given him the starting job.
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So of the 7 or 8 different types of throws that are required to be a successful NFL QB you state that McCoy can only make 1 of them.. and he can sometimes make another if he is rolling to the right.... and then you claim that he might make a good back-up?
Do you want a back-up whose only redeeming quality is that he can hit a post from 15 yards away? I can find HS QBs that can do that. Why would a FO keep a guy like that on an NFL roster? Don't you want to have some chance to win if your back-up is called upon?
What does an NFL backup QB generally have to do?
He has to understand the offense, and be able to get people lined up correctly if called upon. He has to be able to execute basic plays.
That's usually about it. Some teams, like the Packers, may not run things that way .. but most will.
Look at how the Browns managed McCoy last year when he was forced into action. They had to use him a bit more against Pittsburgh than they wanted to, and lost that game. They than had him attempt 16 and 19 passes against New Orleans and New England, simple passes that played into his strengths, and which the opposition had not scouted. He then had a strong game against the Jets, and a decent game against the Jaguars.
McCoy had a nice game against the Bengals. For the most part, his best games, or the games where the team performed the best, were where he was not forced to throw a lot. 16 passes against the Saints. 19 against the Patriots. 25 against the Bengals. 31 against the Jets .... deep into overtime. These games were carefully managed. Teams didn't yet have a great read on what McCoy could, and could not do well.
They started to get that read, especially playing Baltimore, and then Pittsburgh for a 2nd time. By that point in the season, teams had a pretty good idea, just like they get on all young QBs, of what he wanted to do, what his favorite throws were, and what his tendencies were.
He was more effective before teams got this book on him. He could be hidden to an extent, and then extended if absolutely necessary. This happens with many backups. Teams can hide their weaknesses for a few games ...... but play them for half a season or more and they start standing out like pimples on a high school kid's face on prom night. Nobody misses them.
The fact that a QB has pimples doesn't mean that he is incapable of being a backup .... rather it means that he likely will not be able to be a quality starter at this point in his career. He may develop ........ he may not. That's another aspect of the backup position.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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because somebody wasn't willing to yank him after his first 3 years, in which he didn't show much at all
except SD was very willing to yank Brees, which is why they drafted Rivers #4 overall (after drafting Eli Manning #1 overall and trading him).
in fact, if Rivers does not hold out into the middle of August that summer, then there is a very real chance that SD would have given him the starting job.
You bring up an excellent point.. imagine this... in 2004 the Chargers had a young Drew Brees, a young Antonio Gates, a young LaDanian Tomlinson and their leading WR was David Boston... and they used the #1 overall pick to replace the struggling Drew Brees.. had they not done that, they could have added Larry Fitzgerald to the roster, who was taken 3rd overall...
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I'm going to throw this out for discussion again...
In all honesty, I thought McCoy played better as a rookie than he did this season. McCoy's first 6 games as a rookie, his
...comp%..65.75
...qbrating..92.8
I have a problem understanding what happened to 'that' Colt McCoy..the one we saw last season (2010), in his first 6 starts? What happened to McCoy's qb play when Shurmur took over vs playing for Mangini and Daboll?
I'm confident Holmgren has asked the same question and likely knows why McCoy regressed under Shurmur and his WCO.
The question becomes, can the McCoy we watched play very well for 6 games as a rookie..can the Browns find that guy and will they give him a chance to build upon his rookie performance?
For those waiting to point out that McCoy's last two games as a rookie were real stinkers, against the Steelers and Ravens...it's a good bet that the players knew Mangini was leaving and they were simply playing out the string.
I'm 100% comfortable tossing those two starts out, when asking what happened to the McCoy we saw in 2010.
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I hadn't actually seen the QB rating for McCoy until you posted that mac.
I remember being very impressed by his play his rookie season. Thanks for the stats to justify that notion.
I would like to know if we have examples from his rookie season of him successfully tossing slants, outs, and posts in stride. If we have examples of him being physically capable of tossing a 10-15 yard out in stride, I'd happily change my tune.
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I'd say a good part of it is he didn't have Hillis running like a freight train last year.
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Nor an off-season to prepare for training camp. They never had any timing between the QB and WR's. Nothing like learning a difficult offense on the fly through the regular season.
#gmstrong
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I hadn't actually seen the QB rating for McCoy until you posted that mac.
I remember being very impressed by his play his rookie season. Thanks for the stats to justify that notion.
I would like to know if we have examples from his rookie season of him successfully tossing slants, outs, and posts in stride. If we have examples of him being physically capable of tossing a 10-15 yard out in stride, I'd happily change my tune.
king...I don't have McCoy's games taped so I can't break down every pass play. What I can do is go back and see if the McCoy we saw in 2010 is comparable to successful NFL qbs.
In 2010, McCoy averaged 11.67 yds per completion.
I realize most track yds per attempted pass...but what does that stat show us?...yds per attempt. If a qb attempts a pass and it's incomplete, it results in a zero in the calculation of yds per attempt...what good is that stat?
So I decided to use yds per completion, which IMO gives us a number that is relevant to a qb actual production on the field.
In McCoy's rookie season, he averaged 11.67 yds per completion and I included the last two games (Bal,Pit), which were McCoy's worst performances of his rookie year.
I compared McCoy's rookie season (yards per completion) with the 2011 performances (ypc) of some of better qbs in the NFL...
...QB....YPC
Brady..13.05
Brees..11.70
Roth....12.58
McC...11.67...2010
McC...10.31...2011
That said, it's just another number to judge past performances. It is no assurance of future performances, but another way to compare one qbs performance vs other qbs.
I continue to wonder...why did McCoy play better as a rookie, under Daboll and Mangini...vs Shurmur and his WCO?
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What happened, largely, was 2 things .... they started putting more of the game on his shoulders, and he became more exposed.
In his good games, the team did anything and everything they could to get a lead and let him manage that lead. Hell, his "great game" against New Orleans was a 74 yard passing day. We got the win, so it was a great day. Mangini and Daboll managed the kid very carefully, trying not to expose him too much.
When we got to the end of the season, and Hillis got hurt, then they had no choice but to load the game on McCoy's shoulders, and he collapsed under the weight. He was exposed, and could not relax and make the simple reads/throws that he enjoyed when the team could run the ball, and could get a lead and let him play from in front.
That's a simple kind of analysis, but I think it has some merit.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm going to throw this out for discussion again...
In all honesty, I thought McCoy played better as a rookie than he did this season. McCoy's first 6 games as a rookie, his
...comp%..65.75
...qbrating..92.8
I have a problem understanding what happened to 'that' Colt McCoy..the one we saw last season (2010), in his first 6 starts? What happened to McCoy's qb play when Shurmur took over vs playing for Mangini and Daboll?
I'm confident Holmgren has asked the same question and likely knows why McCoy regressed under Shurmur and his WCO.
The question becomes, can the McCoy we watched play very well for 6 games as a rookie..can the Browns find that guy and will they give him a chance to build upon his rookie performance?
For those waiting to point out that McCoy's last two games as a rookie were real stinkers, against the Steelers and Ravens...it's a good bet that the players knew Mangini was leaving and they were simply playing out the string.
I'm 100% comfortable tossing those two starts out, when asking what happened to the McCoy we saw in 2010.
At the risk of repeating myself and also opening myself up to riducule, I think there were several contributing factors.
McCoy was only in his second year (and he didn't play 16 games the first year)
Hillis wasn't the same hillis he was in 2010
The RB (Brandon Jackson) they picked up via FA was injured. I think thats more significant than some feel because he came from roughly the same system and could have helped.
We were missing Vickers (I'll never understand that) and Maricic (sp) was a rookie.. Even Vickers wasn't all that and a bag of chips his first year. there is hope there.
New Coach, new System, no prep time to learn it from the coach.
Dropped passes
RT and RG weakness
LG Rookie although by the end of the year, he seemed decent
Those are the reasons I think he wasn't as effective. Also the reasons why I think we need another year of Colt to find out.
But, that's JMO,,
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Nor an off-season to prepare for training camp. They never had any timing between the QB and WR's. Nothing like learning a difficult offense on the fly through the regular season.
dub...while it is true that McCoy had an off season to prepare for Daboll's offense, keep in mind how Mangini and Daboll "prepared" McCoy...they tried to ignore him until the #1 and #2 qbs went down with high ankle sprains and they were forced to play McCoy.
McCoy likely did learn Daboll's offense on the fly...recalling the comment McCoy made about not getting the scouting reports at the same time #1 and #2 qbs got the report.
Maybe it was just easier for McCoy to pick up Daboll's offense vs the WCO of Shurmur. It would not be a stretch to believe that Daboll simplified the offense for the rookie, McCoy.
Shurmur had taught his WCO to rookie qb Sam Bradford in St Louis and looking back at his performance in Shurmur's WCO and comparing it to McCoy's first year in Shurmur's WCO...we get this..
...QB.....comp%...qbrate...yds per comp.....yr...
Bradford...60.0........76.6........9.9..............2010...
McCoy....57.2.........74.6......10.3..............2011...
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I'd say a good part of it is he didn't have Hillis running like a freight train last year.
peen...no doubt, it helps to have a running game so the defense is not sitting on the pass.
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Before this thread runs it coarse,there will 2435 excuses made for McCoy.
In my mind there are two varibles that changed;
1.Lack of a running game
2. Most importantly,no time to learn the new O.
Mangini,for all his faults,handled the young QB correctly.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I'm going to throw this out for discussion again...
In all honesty, I thought McCoy played better as a rookie than he did this season. McCoy's first 6 games as a rookie, his
...comp%..65.75
...qbrating..92.8
I have a problem understanding what happened to 'that' Colt McCoy..the one we saw last season (2010), in his first 6 starts? What happened to McCoy's qb play when Shurmur took over vs playing for Mangini and Daboll?
I'm confident Holmgren has asked the same question and likely knows why McCoy regressed under Shurmur and his WCO.
The question becomes, can the McCoy we watched play very well for 6 games as a rookie..can the Browns find that guy and will they give him a chance to build upon his rookie performance?
For those waiting to point out that McCoy's last two games as a rookie were real stinkers, against the Steelers and Ravens...it's a good bet that the players knew Mangini was leaving and they were simply playing out the string.
I'm 100% comfortable tossing those two starts out, when asking what happened to the McCoy we saw in 2010.
BECAUSE CLEVELAND KILLS PROMISING QBs.
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm going to throw this out for discussion again...
In all honesty, I thought McCoy played better as a rookie than he did this season. McCoy's first 6 games as a rookie, his
...comp%..65.75
...qbrating..92.8
I have a problem understanding what happened to 'that' Colt McCoy..the one we saw last season (2010), in his first 6 starts? What happened to McCoy's qb play when Shurmur took over vs playing for Mangini and Daboll?
I'm confident Holmgren has asked the same question and likely knows why McCoy regressed under Shurmur and his WCO.
The question becomes, can the McCoy we watched play very well for 6 games as a rookie..can the Browns find that guy and will they give him a chance to build upon his rookie performance?
For those waiting to point out that McCoy's last two games as a rookie were real stinkers, against the Steelers and Ravens...it's a good bet that the players knew Mangini was leaving and they were simply playing out the string.
I'm 100% comfortable tossing those two starts out, when asking what happened to the McCoy we saw in 2010.
BECAUSE CLEVELAND KILLS PROMISING QBs.
So we should only bring in QB's that aren't promising.
RG3 it is then!
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I can't disagree with your logic...
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'Toad,
I'm one of the folks that is good either way with how we deal with McCoy. I think you can legitimately make the argument that he played poorly enough on his own to judge his talents despite poor play around him. You could also make the argument that he had enough working against him (mainly, the shortened offseason to implement a whole new offense). Either way, I'm sure the FO will make the right decision.
...which brings me to my next point. I think I speak for everyone who's said "I trust the FO to do whatever" when I say that that statement isn't meant as a "meh" type of endorsement, but more speaks to the positive steps that are finally coming out of those roles within the organization. It's a breath of fresh air to know we have people (emphasis on the plural) that know what they're doing when it comes to bringing in talent.
Also, I'm very wishy-washy on bringing in another veteran stopgap/mediocre/average/not-the-guy type of QB. It sounds great to bring in competition to compete with McCoy, but haven't we gone this route already? This takes me back to the Quinn/DA days. It seems like we've tried every single flavor of mediocre QB play, and none of them have worked.
This post is just turning into a disgruntled fan rant, but it seems like, no matter what we do, the QB position is going to suck until we get "the guy". Saying that sounds obvious, but as a franchise, we've tried to address the position every other way, but have failed.
Now that we have a FO with some brains, it's up to them to go out and get that guy. Hopefully we can do that this offseason.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Saying that sounds obvious, but as a franchise, we've tried to address the position every other way, but have failed
it is kinda obvious.. but that's cool.
We have indeed tried it many different ways., We've drafted 2 first round QB's (couch and quinn) and got beat on both. We drafted a local kid (frye) in the middle rounds and he didn't cut it. We drafted one of the best college QB's in the 3rd round (McCoy) and he's not exactly sparked the team, but maybe for good reasons as you've pointed out.
on top of that, we've brought in a number of hired guns, Jeff Garcia, Trent Dilfer, DA, Holcomb etc etc.. and to date, none lit a fire under this team save DA in a miracle year.
That, in part is why I'm interested in staying the course for ONE more year with McCoy. Put some playmakers around him and get an off season to teach the Offense. Then let's see what we got.
It could mean another year of sucking at the bottom of the pile in which case, we'll be at or near the top of the draft again, or it could be the start of something good.
And, if we go this route, we'll have added some playmakers to the team. Should make it easier to have a successful QB next time.. But hey, that's JMO...
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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You make a compelling case. Flynn torching Detroit gave me some hope that McCoy can improve with time in the system. I mean, it was Matt freakin' Flynn doing that. The same Matt Flynn that was drafted in the 7th round. I'd still rather draft Luck or RGIII at #4 as option #1, but sticking with Colt is option #2 for me.
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I concur. I've talked myself into at least thinking about RGIII as an option, but only if we don't have to trade up.
1. Luck
2. RGIII
3. Colt
4. Flynn
5. Tannehill
6. Campbell
7. Orton
8. Garrard
9. Stanton
10. Hill
And so on and so forth.
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Quote:
I'm very wishy-washy on bringing in another veteran stopgap/mediocre/average/not-the-guy type of QB. It sounds great to bring in competition to compete with McCoy, but haven't we gone this route already? This takes me back to the Quinn/DA days. It seems like we've tried every single flavor of mediocre QB play, and none of them have worked.
I would argue that we have yet to try a mediocre Qb 
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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