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As in ... are they "doable?"
I suppose you could work them out either way ... but I was just thinking about this with a friend and thought about posting it for all of your thoughts.
What if we did a three way trade with St. Louis and Indy. We obviously have ties (Shurmur - St. Louis and Heckert - Indy's GM from Philly) and also a ton of potential to trade as well.
Just a hypothetical ... if it COULD work out then we could go to #1 and nab Luck. Indianpolis could head to the #2 and take Griffin. St. Louis either gets the top tackle to protect Bradford, or the top wideout to help him blossom.
The caveat is why would Indianapolis want to move down to number two, and it might be that they are going to have a lot of pieces missing. If they think that they can get more out of taking a different QB who is pretty highly rated as well on their board and still get more picks, then why not?
I think the hardest part is coming up with perceived value to make it work. My best attempt....
Browns:
Get: #1 - Indy (Luck)
Give Up: (#4, #22, 2013 First)
Colts:
Get: #2 - *St. Louis (Griffin), #22 Cle, 2013 1st Rounder - Cleveland
Give Up: #1 (Luck), 2012 2nd Rounder
St. Louis
Get: #4 Cle (Kalil / Blackmon), 2012 Second Rounder - Indy
Give Up: #2 (Griffin)
The Benefits seem to make sense ...
Cleveland would have to trade a boatload to get Luck in a strait up deal. BUT ... we could afford to trade just a bit less if the Colts can get something out of it that they would want. We do lose next year's first but we still have a lot of picks to manuever with and don't touch the 2nd through 7th for this or next year's draft.
St. Louis gets the 2nd rounder from Indianapolis (which actually happens to be the 34th). So they do drop 2 spot and lose out from what they could gain by trading down with Miami or Washington for Griffin. BUT they also don't trade down out of the Kalil/Blackmon range. PLUS ... they would have the 33rd and 34th. The two top picks of the second round. With the new draft formatting they could definitely benefit for teams who will go crazy and re-work their boards from the overnight gap for the night between the first and second round. They could also use those two picks, but I think that's the region that teams will try to trade up and take players that fell out of the first round.
Indianpolis: Without naming all of them, the Colts are getting old. If they like Griffin and aren't set on Luck (which I realize they could be) then they could grab a potential elite quarterback and still get some more picks. It makes sense because if they traded straight up with the Browns they could probably get more or at least not have to give up the second rounder. BUT they can still get a first in this year's draft, a first in next years, and Griffin for only a second rounder in this year (which is a lot better deal than trading up from #4 to #2 because it would probably cost a lot more than a second in most cases).
I know this is just a starting point but I was curious as to what would make sense for a three team trade off of this...
Last edited by PStu24; 01/24/12 06:57 PM.
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I'm beginning to think we all have too much time on our hands. I know you do..... 
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not to sound stupid but why would the Colts give up a 2nd round pick? They could sit at 1 take our 2 1st next years first and probably our 3rd this and 4th next year and still get RGIII at 4? If not they could grab tann at our 1b pick
You have them only getting St Louis 1st this year our 1b pick and next years first plus giving up a 2nd this year?
Again no thanks these things just dont work for me.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Well my point was that if they wanted to secure Griffin.
There would be the thoughts for them that there are now for us that Griffin might not be available at #4 ... especially if Washington trades up above us. If they traded with us straight up (as I said above I hope) then they would get the 2 extra firsts. BUT they would be sitting at #4 and might not be able to get Griffin. So they would have to trade from #4 back up to get Griffin. I think that the #33 would be fair compensation to do so.
From my point of view, if it were us sitting at #4 and trying to trade up to #2 the #22 would be too much to stomach. The #37 might not be enough for St. Louis though. The #33 makes sense because it's not only the highest 2nd rounder, it is also the first pick of the second day and that's where a lot of teams might want to trade up to once they reorganize their boards and go after someone who "fell."
And while I don't dislike Tannehill ... there is obviously a clear dropoff. He is viewed in a different pool than Griffin and Luck. This whole thing is based on the fact that some people have even said Griffin could be close to Luck. They could Draft Griffin and he could potentially start right off of the bat.
So they are essentially getting 3 number ones. But then to guarantee themselves getting Griffin they have to pay to secure him aka trade their second for Griffin.
If they didn't want griffin then this doesn't work - as I stated in the premise.
But if they don't want griffin they essentially have two options:
1. Draft Luck
2. Trade him to the highest bidder. If that is us then that's fine. But they also don't have the guarantee that Griffin will be there when they pick.
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Why would the colts give up the first round pick (andrew luck) when they know very well that manning is either done this year or next?
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Not sure. It depends on the evals of Griffin.
If you think the two are pretty close ... (all comes down to evaluations)
Would you rather have
Luck
Or:
Griffin, the #22, the first pick of the Browns in 2013 (which could be high... by the way)
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Quote:
Would you rather have
Luck
Or:
Griffin, the #22, the first pick of the Browns in 2013 (which could be high... by the way)
Luck.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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But you misquote me by not including the caveat.... Quote:
If you think the two are pretty close ... (all comes down to evaluations)
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My bad, I read it but didn't really include it in my thought process...
And seeing as my thought process knows that Luck and Griffin are nowhere near close... I can't change my opinion on it...
Your caveat skews the results way too much towards Griffin for it to be used unbiasedly...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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J/C
It's folly to try to speculate trade scenarios. The possibilities are endless and the NFL has never been a trading league compared to other sports.
Why??? I don't know, but it is what it is.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Heres the problem with the whole thing. If they want a QB they are going to take Luck no if ands or buts. If they think RGIII is better then Luck or as good as Luck then I want no part of giving up our future to get the 2nd best guy either Luck or RGIII to any team.
I hope you understand what Im trying to say. I want no part of it. If he falls to us and Heckert sees him as the top guy on his board then draft him Im fine.
I really dont see teams knocking down the Rams door to get RGIII I could be wrong but I dont see it. Minn scares me more in that they would trade out of their spot then teams talking to the Rams.
The reason being that Minn said they are not going QB right away letting teams know they could be trade partners with teams willing to jump the Browns which Im sure youve factored into your thought process is why you feel the need to move up to #2
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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That makes sense. I guess it just comes down to evals....
Like I said I am skeptical of Griffin myself. But while it seems like Luck is the consensus #1 ... I know there are some on this board and also some scouts who have said Griffin is the better (or comparable) prospect.
The only thing I could think of would be something along the lines of looking at past drafts ... but hindsight kills that. So I wanted to look as to what the better deal was over the past decade or so. I only did it with drafts where there were multiple top ten quarterbacks but didn't do it this year because it's really early and locker barely played as well. Nonethless ...
Based upon all QB's in recent history being relative, but also based upon this essentially being a carefully studied and meticulously crafted crapshoot ... would you rather have:
Matt Stafford OR Mark Sanchez + 2 First Rounders
Vince Young OR Matt Leinart + 2 First rounders (one this year and one next)
Eli Manning OR Philip Rivers + 2 First rounders (one this year and one next)
Eli Manning OR Ben Roethlisberger + 2 Firsts (Technically he was 11th - not tenth)
Carson Palmer OR Byron Leftwhich + 2 Firsts
Tim Couch OR Donovan McNabb + 2 Firsts
David Carr OR Joey Harrington + 2 Firsts
Tim Couch OR Akili Smith + 2 Firsts
Peyton Manning OR Ryan Leaf + 2 Firsts
feel free to comment or disagree .... like I said I'm just trying to figure out whether or not Luck is a SURE THING for Indy or whether they explore options. I say according to this even if Griffin is close but not quite to the level of Luck, it wouldn't be out of the question to potentially pass on the "sure thing" if it meant multiple first rounders in return. It certainly would be a quick injection into the Indy arm to let them compete sooner rather than be set for the long term. ... and a lot of it once again comes down to the evaluations of Luck v. Griffin
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I agree with otto but well thought out IMO.
The chances of it happening are very slim.
Unless Indy falls head over heals in love with RG3. As in they believe that RG3 will be the superior NFL player to the guy that most draft experts is the best prospect to come around in many many years.
If they do then your trade makes a lot of sense for all parties.
They did select Edgerrin James even though Ricky Williams was the consensus popular pick. And they did catch grief for it. Time proved them absolutely right though.
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Im going to say this again if they dont think Luck is the guy I dont want him either.
If they think RGIII is better than or as good as Luck I take RGIII at 4 and keep the picks or draft Luck when he falls to us.
Your speculating that an NFL team will under rate the best QB in a draft and we could somehow jump up and grab that suddenly underrated QB adding in another team all at reduced value.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
Im going to say this again if they dont think Luck is the guy I dont want him either.
Why if you don't mind me asking. Why should Tom Heckert care what Indy thinks? It could be his former assistant. It could be Bill Polian calling the shots. But regardless ... why. Following that logic should we say that if Indy passes on Griffin we shouldn't take him?
Quote:
If they think RGIII is better than or as good as Luck I take RGIII at 4 and keep the picks or draft Luck when he falls to us.
Your speculating that an NFL team will under rate the best QB in a draft and we could somehow jump up and grab that suddenly underrated QB adding in another team all at reduced value.
I don't think you understand the question or the premise at hand. If he is the best QB in the draft then he will be drafted first so long as he is head and shoulders above that. However ... to build the team sometimes you can and should sacrafice one player.
Refer to my post above ... would you take Eli Manning or Ben Roethlisberger with two additional firsts? Eli is developing into a top flight guy. BUT Ben is playing pretty darn well himself. Him plus two firsts would also be a viable way of improving the entire team. Smart GM's do that.
My question is despite how a guy is ranked on a fan's mock draft board ... if YOU think they are comparable then why not pass up a "95" to take a "93" and still get two firsts? It's not that I'm advocating you HAVE to do it... I'm just saying if your rankings have them pretty close then why not?
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I think he meant the Browns FO...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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first off as OS said im looking at this from the Browns FO point of view. Why would I give up those picks and barely get a better player then the one I could draft where Im at?
If Indy doesnt feel Luck is the guy I dont need to trade up to grab him they wont pick him they will take RGIII and Luck will fall to us. If Indy feels Luck is the man but RGIII is just a bit a below again Im fine I grab RGIII at 4.
And finally if im not sold on RGIII I pass altogether and trade down or grab the guy Im really sold on.
The Rivers Manning was the best trade to explain this. Yeah NY won a SB but SD got hit with some bad luck (pardon the pun) along the way. Rivers should have been in the big show IMHO and I dont blame marty for finally going for the win instead of playing not to lose. Sucked it just worked out bad for him.
Ill take my chances in the next draft that will be QB heavy.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
I agree with otto but well thought out IMO.
The chances of it happening are very slim.
I'll take credit for it because I wrote a post talking about trading up to 2 then to 1 last night actually.
Of course, great minds might think alike........
I've been thinking about this trade for awhile, this way Indy can guarantee Griffin and we can get Luck and the Rams can get one of the elite players.
But anyway, what you said is right Heldawg, different managers have different preferences in players. May be Indy really likes RG3, and they'd prefer Griffin and more picks instead of Luck.
Then we'd get my guy (Luck) and Indy and St. Louis can get what they want as well.
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you guys kill me. You want to think that indy doesnt know that Luck is good or bad and you want to think that Luck is the greatest thing to come from forever but somehow Indy wont see that and will be happy with somthing else.
Turn this around. If the Browns had the first pick in this years draft what would you give up to move down and take RGIII or Blackmon or Clay or Rich or Kalil?
Would you trade the 1st pick for 2 first rounders and a first next year giving up the 2nd and perhaps get a great project QB while giving up the best QB to come along sense well lets say from the hype ........If the Browns had the first pick and traded it THIS YEAR what would you say??? Ask yourself that. Then tell yourself we did trade that pick for those picks and we are exactly where we are at with those picks. You all would be lining up on the 480 bridge sports radio would be ripping us to the high heavens and
I wouldnt have to read this stuff.
Give it up Indy isnt moving and if Luck isnt all that our FO isnt trading for him. Why is that so hard to understand?
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Wow. You seem a little high on yourself and your own opinions. As I have said time and again it depends on evaluations. Just because you think Griffin is a project and Luck is a sure thing it doesn't mean that the guys who get paid to do it do. As I said before ... would you want Eli or Rivers/Roeth plus two first rounders? The fact is neither answer is correct. It's HOW you want to build the team and there is no right answer. I never posted this saying "we need do this guyz lolz!!!!" I was looking into the fact that SMART GM's know how to get cute and find value. This could be a situation where everyone wins. Will it happen? No idea. but it could. I presented the idea. You seem to think otherwise and that's fine. But please don't parade around as if you are the only one here with opinions or as if there is no way it wouldn't happen. "There's no way Mario Williams gets drafted ahead of Vince Young or Reggie Bush" "There's no way Favre plays for the Vikings" "There's no way Donovan McNabb is traded inside the division" "There's no way Ditka gives up an entire draft" "There's no way Santonio Holmes is traded for a 5th rounder" "There's no way ..." If I may quote Peter King (which I have never done nor plan to do again) ... "I watch to be entertained and amazed ... not to be right." So my point is ... I don't really get why you continue lingering and saying we kill you ... it could be a realistic scenario that I layed out with thought and reasoning that makes sense. It's based upon the idea that it will come down to evaluations. Indy will have a new coach and they have a new GM. They may understand that their team is fairly old and it could take more than a star QB to vault themselves back up to the top. Maybe they want to do that with multiple picks and a different star QB. I have no idea if it happens (I actually doubt it) but I don't think it's something that "could never happen" ... like Carson Palmer being traded for two first rounders or anything 
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Quote:
Wow. You seem a little high on yourself and your own opinions.
As I have said time and again it depends on evaluations. Just because you think Griffin is a project and Luck is a sure thing it doesn't mean that the guys who get paid to do it do.
I sure agree with that one. Man. ((Addressing this NickBrownsFan))You've got your idea, we have ours Nick........
You never know unless you try. May be RG3 fits into what Indy wants to do. It doesn't look as good anymore with Peyton not feeling the love in Indy, but, different people have different opinions on players. And it takes one person to think highly of someone to make something happen. That's how Tebow gets picked so high, how someone like David Veikune gets picked in the 2nd round, etc.
I don't really know much about RG3, I do know about Andrew Luck, and I'd really like him. And you never know about these things unless you try. I just hope that Heckert calls Indy and says "Hey, if we could get ourselves to number 2, guarantee you RG3, and get you more picks to go with it, what would you think?" Asking never hurts.
It's not like we're betting on it............ Just trying to come up with a possibility as to how we can get the guy we want.
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Were you out all night doing jagerbombs with RidersofRohan when you thought of this?  In all seriousness I see no way this would happen. If it wasn't Griffin over Luck then it may be possible, but nah.
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Nope. Just trying to look at things outside of the box instead of being told by Mel Kiper / Todd McShay how I should draft. And even though there are scouts who spend their entire lives doing nothing but evaluating ... if ESPN says Indy will take Luck back in December then there's no way they would trade him or the rights... right?
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just messing with ya a bit dude. I just really don't see anything like that happening, but hey who knows.
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Haha it's cool.
I was more curious when I posted this at the beginning to see whether or not 3 way trades really happen in football. I don't recall any.
Furthermore ... I was wondering if it would make sense (and I think it could).
If we get the franchise guy that we think we want. A new GM in Indy still gets a good QB who could be elite but moreso gets significant picks ... and St. Louis with Jeff Fisher can get one of the two guys that they would probably pick ANYWAYS plus get another high pick.
My biggest problem was coming up with fair compensation pick wise.
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Im not high on myself nor my opinions I asked you a straight up question would you do it on the reverse end? Then said if you would then we already have those picks and are best served to keep them. Understand?
You are basing your judgement on hoping the Colts dont see any value of Luck over RGIII. I said from the start if that is the case in the Browns room I would have no interest in trading up for either of them. Plain and simple, has nothing what so ever to do with my opinion of either player.
This isnt Madden with a 93 rated player and a 95 rated player.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
Quote:
Wow. You seem a little high on yourself and your own opinions.
As I have said time and again it depends on evaluations. Just because you think Griffin is a project and Luck is a sure thing it doesn't mean that the guys who get paid to do it do.
I sure agree with that one. Man. ((Addressing this NickBrownsFan))You've got your idea, we have ours Nick........
You never know unless you try. May be RG3 fits into what Indy wants to do. It doesn't look as good anymore with Peyton not feeling the love in Indy, but, different people have different opinions on players. And it takes one person to think highly of someone to make something happen. That's how Tebow gets picked so high, how someone like David Veikune gets picked in the 2nd round, etc.
I don't really know much about RG3, I do know about Andrew Luck, and I'd really like him. And you never know about these things unless you try. I just hope that Heckert calls Indy and says "Hey, if we could get ourselves to number 2, guarantee you RG3, and get you more picks to go with it, what would you think?" Asking never hurts.
It's not like we're betting on it............ Just trying to come up with a possibility as to how we can get the guy we want.
and Ill tell you the same thing in the post above would you make the same trade if the browns held the #1 pick in this years draft? and if they did would you be happy about it? Think about it. If the Browns had the #1 pick would you want us to make that trade? If you would then great WE HAVE THOSE PICKS! If not then quit daydreaming.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
and Ill tell you the same thing in the post above would you make the same trade if the browns held the #1 pick in this years draft? and if they did would you be happy about it? Think about it. If the Browns had the #1 pick would you want us to make that trade? If you would then great WE HAVE THOSE PICKS! If not then quit daydreaming.
And I'll tell you again, we don't know what the Colts GM thinks of RG3.......... If he thinks highly of him, then it's possible. Doesn't hurt to call and find out
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Quote:
Quote:
and Ill tell you the same thing in the post above would you make the same trade if the browns held the #1 pick in this years draft? and if they did would you be happy about it? Think about it. If the Browns had the #1 pick would you want us to make that trade? If you would then great WE HAVE THOSE PICKS! If not then quit daydreaming.
And I'll tell you again, we don't know what the Colts GM thinks of RG3.......... If he thinks highly of him, then it's possible. Doesn't hurt to call and find out
YES IT DOES!
AND HE HAS A BOMB STRAPPED TO HIMSELF!!!
AND IF YOU CONTINUE TO POST HE'S GOING TO DETONATE!!!
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Wow is all I can say. Lets see the Colts dont have a Gm right now that Im aware of and no matter what the guy they hire thinks I would have to guess hes going to be a pretty good judge of talent. All that aside I asked 2 questions.
Would you make that trade? If the Browns made that trade would you be happy with it? Once you answer those you will have your answer to would the colts make that trade. imho of course.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Right ... was more caught up with how you said "You guys kill me" as if you were passing judgement. Honestly? This is my thinking now ... but as I said it comes back to the evaluations that only the teams decide on as well as who the coach eventually is. If I am Indy ... I play in a dome. Maybe the mobility of Griffin versus Luck is better because of that. Not sure. I also know that I have MANY free agents and I won't be able to sign many of them even if I cut Peyton. Some of the biggest holes ... Garcon, Wayne, Gonzalez. Wouldn't it be great to add a big time player at 22 like Wright or Floyd? OR how about grabbing a top tackle to protect the new QB? The thinking on THIS board for a lot of people was "finish the team" OR "grab the quarterback" .... The colts were BAD. BUT they are a lot closer to completing the team by plugging a few holes and grabbing the quarterback than we are. Furthermore ... they could do BOTH. So you can't take it just as a "what would you rather do" ... because every team is different. The colts will have holes but most can be filled. They are farther along than us and two extra first rounders would help get them closer to 14-2 than 2-14. US? I think we are on the right path but I have bought into the fact that we may not get another chance to take the franchise QB. Heck ... one or two more wins would have had us drafting in the 10 to 15 range. WAY out of elite QB range. So it isn't as simple as what option is better because every team will make a different decision based upon a given option depending on their team specific circumstances. As far as the rest of your comments ... once again I don't think you realize it but you are coming off as extremely full of yourself which is silly to be truthful ... especially on a message board. I never said this was madden. I was trying to use numbers as an example of evaluations. If you can't follow that please let me know and I could try to make it easier for you. To clarify ... every team has a big board that they use to rank players. Some actually give them a number in order to rank them. It's not just on madden (which I actually don't play - by the way ). And regardless of what venue you have I'm trying to say it's not just based upon total value but a thing called marginal utility. Look it up. My point was that let's assume the value of Luck is greater than Griffin. We don't know for sure that it is. BUT if we assume that it is my point is saying by how much. If Luck is rated on a point system ... let's say it's out of a 100 point scale where 100 determines the prospect's potential success and 0 determines that he is absolute failure and we aren't sure he can tie his shoes as well as breath at the same time ... let's hyothetically assume the guy got a "grade" of 95 (Luck) and the other got a 93 (Griffin). Now here's where my point takes effect. Maybe INDY thinks Griffin is really close to Luck. According to their board ... two extra first rounders MORE than makes up for the two points on the grading scale. Funny thing ... not every team follows the same scale, scenarios, or has the same needs. So MAYBE Heckert and crew grade them and Luck actually is a 98 while Griffin comes in at an 85 when they factor in risk and size and other factors. I have no idea what it actually will be, but these are all based upon hypotheticals after all for this case. SO ... when you factor in the idea that the Colts REALLY LIKE Griffin then maybe they DO want him plus the two firsts instead of just getting Luck. This is more important especially if they think he projects well into their system (also an unknown because who knows what their new coach will even run?) AND ... if the Browns truly feel that Luck is the best guy and they already like him more than anyone they have seen who could enter next year (you can bet they have done their rankings on all of the guys who were eligible to come out this year ... so they should have most of their notes on almost all of the draft eligible QB's in next year's class as well). So if you are Cleveland then you are saying "when is the next time we not only have the CHANCE to draft a guy who is this good ... but will actually find someone this good?" Yeah I think they should take him. One Peyton Manning is a lot better than a Mark Sanchez, Joe Haden, and Alex Mack no matter how you figure it. And because we don't know for sure what they are thinking about the evaluations (what my entire argument keeps going back to) then that could be the case. So as you can see you missed my point almost entirely. It isn't based upon hoping the Colts don't see the value in Luck. I KNOW they see the value. It's **hoping** (which was your word, not mine) that the Colts see Griffin as a close enough product to Luck that they would rather have Griffin + 2 Firsts than have Luck ... IF we would rather have Luck even if it costs us another 2 Firsts. Really pretty simple. It's the idea that different people evaluate players differently, evaluate the value of draft picks differently, and are projecting players into thier system differently. So to simplify ... IF the Colts value Luck more than Griffin plus 2 firsts - then it's no trade. IF we wouldn't be willing to pay 2 additional firsts for Luck because we don't value him that much then it's no trade. But what if there was common ground for the two teams (or three as I said in my original post) to make a deal so that everyone could get something more than what they wanted?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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and Ill tell you the same thing in the post above would you make the same trade if the browns held the #1 pick in this years draft? and if they did would you be happy about it? Think about it. If the Browns had the #1 pick would you want us to make that trade? If you would then great WE HAVE THOSE PICKS! If not then quit daydreaming.
And I'll tell you again, we don't know what the Colts GM thinks of RG3.......... If he thinks highly of him, then it's possible. Doesn't hurt to call and find out
YES IT DOES!
AND HE HAS A BOMB STRAPPED TO HIMSELF!!!
AND IF YOU CONTINUE TO POST HE'S GOING TO DETONATE!!!
Ok you win the post if the day from me
(disclaimer; post of the day does not include any prizes, any use of the post of the day can be used by the claimer of the post of the day for personal use with no re-embusment and all claims against said reposter must be made in writing within 30 hours of said use.) 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Lets see the Colts dont have a Gm right now that Im aware of and no matter what the guy they hire thinks I would have to guess hes going to be a pretty good judge of talent.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/744984...ryan-grigson-gm
Only hired him the 11th ... so you aren't "late" to the party ... just losing credibility with your lack of knowledge and your brashness.
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Would you make that trade?
If I am the Colts and I value the perceived value of Griffin + 2 picks as greater than Luck then yes I do. I said that in the first post....
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If the Browns made that trade would you be happy with it?
I have no idea. This wasn't about my opinion it was about if it would work.
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Once you answer those you will have your answer to would the colts make that trade. imho of course.
Not at all. What the Colts would do versus what the Browns would do is entirely different. Every team sets their draft boards differently and value players differently. If not there would be just a single draft board and the term "reach" or a player "falling" would never happen. Everyone would go where they were slotted.
The entire reason the draft is so exciting is because everyone evaluates players differently and is willing to make different levels of sacrafices while taking on additional levels of risk to get the players that they want.
That's why what any given team would do has no correlation to what any other team would do.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Wow is all I can say. Lets see the Colts dont have a Gm right now that Im aware of and no matter what the guy they hire thinks I would have to guess hes going to be a pretty good judge of talent.
Colts hired some guy named Grigson from Philly. Might even have some sort of relationship with Tom Heckert
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Right ... was more caught up with how you said "You guys kill me" as if you were passing judgement.
Honestly? This is my thinking now ... but as I said it comes back to the evaluations that only the teams decide on as well as who the coach eventually is.
If I am Indy ... I play in a dome. Maybe the mobility of Griffin versus Luck is better because of that. Not sure. I also know that I have MANY free agents and I won't be able to sign many of them even if I cut Peyton. Some of the biggest holes ... Garcon, Wayne, Gonzalez. Wouldn't it be great to add a big time player at 22 like Wright or Floyd? OR how about grabbing a top tackle to protect the new QB?
The thinking on THIS board for a lot of people was "finish the team" OR "grab the quarterback" .... The colts were BAD. BUT they are a lot closer to completing the team by plugging a few holes and grabbing the quarterback than we are. Furthermore ... they could do BOTH.
So you can't take it just as a "what would you rather do" ... because every team is different. The colts will have holes but most can be filled. They are farther along than us and two extra first rounders would help get them closer to 14-2 than 2-14.
US? I think we are on the right path but I have bought into the fact that we may not get another chance to take the franchise QB. Heck ... one or two more wins would have had us drafting in the 10 to 15 range. WAY out of elite QB range.
So it isn't as simple as what option is better because every team will make a different decision based upon a given option depending on their team specific circumstances.
As far as the rest of your comments ... once again I don't think you realize it but you are coming off as extremely full of yourself which is silly to be truthful ... especially on a message board.
I never said this was madden. I was trying to use numbers as an example of evaluations. If you can't follow that please let me know and I could try to make it easier for you. To clarify ... every team has a big board that they use to rank players. Some actually give them a number in order to rank them. It's not just on madden (which I actually don't play - by the way ). And regardless of what venue you have I'm trying to say it's not just based upon total value but a thing called marginal utility. Look it up.
My point was that let's assume the value of Luck is greater than Griffin. We don't know for sure that it is. BUT if we assume that it is my point is saying by how much. If Luck is rated on a point system ... let's say it's out of a 100 point scale where 100 determines the prospect's potential success and 0 determines that he is absolute failure and we aren't sure he can tie his shoes as well as breath at the same time ... let's hyothetically assume the guy got a "grade" of 95 (Luck) and the other got a 93 (Griffin).
Now here's where my point takes effect. Maybe INDY thinks Griffin is really close to Luck. According to their board ... two extra first rounders MORE than makes up for the two points on the grading scale.
Funny thing ... not every team follows the same scale, scenarios, or has the same needs.
So MAYBE Heckert and crew grade them and Luck actually is a 98 while Griffin comes in at an 85 when they factor in risk and size and other factors. I have no idea what it actually will be, but these are all based upon hypotheticals after all for this case.
SO ... when you factor in the idea that the Colts REALLY LIKE Griffin then maybe they DO want him plus the two firsts instead of just getting Luck. This is more important especially if they think he projects well into their system (also an unknown because who knows what their new coach will even run?)
AND ... if the Browns truly feel that Luck is the best guy and they already like him more than anyone they have seen who could enter next year (you can bet they have done their rankings on all of the guys who were eligible to come out this year ... so they should have most of their notes on almost all of the draft eligible QB's in next year's class as well). So if you are Cleveland then you are saying "when is the next time we not only have the CHANCE to draft a guy who is this good ... but will actually find someone this good?" Yeah I think they should take him. One Peyton Manning is a lot better than a Mark Sanchez, Joe Haden, and Alex Mack no matter how you figure it. And because we don't know for sure what they are thinking about the evaluations (what my entire argument keeps going back to) then that could be the case.
So as you can see you missed my point almost entirely.
It isn't based upon hoping the Colts don't see the value in Luck. I KNOW they see the value. It's **hoping** (which was your word, not mine) that the Colts see Griffin as a close enough product to Luck that they would rather have Griffin + 2 Firsts than have Luck ... IF we would rather have Luck even if it costs us another 2 Firsts.
Really pretty simple.
It's the idea that different people evaluate players differently, evaluate the value of draft picks differently, and are projecting players into thier system differently.
So to simplify ... IF the Colts value Luck more than Griffin plus 2 firsts - then it's no trade. IF we wouldn't be willing to pay 2 additional firsts for Luck because we don't value him that much then it's no trade.
But what if there was common ground for the two teams (or three as I said in my original post) to make a deal so that everyone could get something more than what they wanted?
Good post and I can see where your coming from but again I am coming from a different angle then you. Sorry if im coming off as an arse on this its not my intent.
So ill try to put in a different way if the Colts were willing to take RGII over Luck and we were willing to part with the picks needed to grab him it would put us in a bad spot because he would have to be great (talking about Luck) if he didnt pan out as the colts felt then we are set back 3 years in our building process.
Now if he did great we are a step closer but again I have to ask if the Browns made that trade would you be happy? If your answer is yes we have those picks if not then neither would they. Yes we are not GM's of NFL teams but they are not dumb for the most part and probably your best hope is that Irsay doesnt hire a GM until after the draft. jm2c
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Lol it's cool . I don't know if it puts us in a bad part though. I think that even when you look at GREAT players who live up to their potential ... it is STILL more important to get the franchise quarterback. As far as the trade ... you can't say "great you got him" because it's not the case. The question is would the Colts want that trade? I don't know if they would or not but it's on them. You can't say we have those picks because my whole statement was based upon us getting Luck for our team .. not on trading him away. You're misconstruing the argument. Even if it was the Brown's trade then once again it comes down to the rankings.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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ok well your best hope at least im opinion is gone they hired a GM and no I didnt know that I dont follow the colts its not my team.
So I've asked this a few times and Ill ask it again if the Browns held the #1 pick in the draft would you be happy or would you make the trade you have proposed?
You need to answer it because that answers all the trade talk your presenting.
You want their FO to not see Luck as any better then RGIII and then hope we can fleese them. Yes it has happened (at lower levels) but not with the 1st pick in the 1st round of the draft in recent memory I can recall.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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And I will answer once again.
If I am the Colts: Do I value Griffin + 2 Picks as then the potential value of Luck?
It's a simple question. If I don't then I don't make the trade. If I do then I make the trade.
I have literally answered that probably 5 times now.
I have ALSO said that I EXPECT them to view Luck as better than Griffin. I just think there's a chance that they would want Griffin ALMOST as bad and that they could prefer Griffin plus two first rounders over Luck.
It has nothing to do with fleecing them. It has to do with simple concepts of economics called trade. Both teams could actually get more out of the trade than they could get by themselves. BUT if they CAN'T both get more then the trade doesn't go down.
Are you simply not following me?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Lol it's cool .
I don't know if it puts us in a bad part though. I think that even when you look at GREAT players who live up to their potential ... it is STILL more important to get the franchise quarterback.
As far as the trade ... you can't say "great you got him" because it's not the case.
The question is would the Colts want that trade? I don't know if they would or not but it's on them. You can't say we have those picks because my whole statement was based upon us getting Luck for our team .. not on trading him away. You're misconstruing the argument.
Even if it was the Brown's trade then once again it comes down to the rankings.
No im not im asking would you make that trade if you were the colts? Im only phrasing it being the Browns because we are the one giving up the picks.
So its either you think the trade is sided to the Browns or the Colts. If you think the Browns with the 1st pick shouldnt make that trade you have your answer.
I understand your point on if they think RGIII may be the same guy and that gives them value but here and now we are talking about what we think and you think that Luck is the guy and are trying to figure out a way to out fox the Colts or hopeing they are inept at choices.
Not saying ti cant happen just saying that you need to look at when building trades from the other side, Would you do it if thier shoes and if they doent value the guy that high why are you.
Hope you kinda see my point.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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And I will answer once again.
If I am the Colts: Do I value Griffin + 2 Picks as then the potential value of Luck?
It's a simple question. If I don't then I don't make the trade. If I do then I make the trade.
I have literally answered that probably 5 times now.
I have ALSO said that I EXPECT them to view Luck as better than Griffin. I just think there's a chance that they would want Griffin ALMOST as bad and that they could prefer Griffin plus two first rounders over Luck.
It has nothing to do with fleecing them. It has to do with simple concepts of economics called trade. Both teams could actually get more out of the trade than they could get by themselves. BUT if they CAN'T both get more then the trade doesn't go down.
Are you simply not following me?
Ok I think we are on the same page now 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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