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This year, the Cleveland Browns averaged 17.4 1st downs per game. Last year it was 16.6. The year before was 14.8. In 2008 it was 14.6.
We completed 38.7% on 3rd down. We averaged 37% in 2009.
There was very, very, very modest improvement, but not enough for me to think that we are on the right path with this QB.
We threw a lot of 3rd and short this year, and I rarely remember that working. Other teams do this and it works .... at least part of the time. I simply do not remember many "QB centric" plays working this year.
We scored 13.6 PPG on average for the year. That's abysmal. Too much of that was blown plays by the QB, missed and late reads, and simply bad throws. I know this flies in the face of what many here believe, but just because a pass was completed does not make it a good pass. Single coverage was consistently missed. Throws to the outside, an essential part of the WCO, were an adventure all too often. YAC was put entirely on the receiver, instead of being a collaborative effort between receiver and QB.
Maybe McCoy can improve enough to be a Super Bowl QB. If he does, he needs to improve on every physical and technical aspect of the game in order to do so. Significantly improve. He might, one day, be an OK QB on a team loaded with talent all across the board, and looking for a game manager type until they can find their franchise guy. I just don't see him hitting even an Alex Smith level under the best of circumstances. Somewhere below that is his ceiling. The real deal Alex Smith had a so-so game against the Giants in the NFC Championship game ...... and they are now home for the playoffs. No matter how much you build the rest of your team, there are going to be games, usually in the playoffs, where you are going to need tour QB to make big plays and match the plays made by the other team's QB.
I don't see McCoy as having enough building blocks to build upon to continue to take chances with him. We are in position to make a move and secure a potential franchise QB, and as the saying goes, if you don't have one, you should be constantly looking for one. Today's NFL is all about the QB .... and if you have a "decent", or "OK" starter, then you are doing your team a disservice if you are not looking to improve the position at every opportunity. We have that opportunity this year.
I look at where we are in this draft, and we have a chance to get a guy who is a game changer. We have a chance to get a guy with far superior accuracy and arm strength. McCoy was a shotgun type QB ..... so who cares if RG3 is too? Hell, we had th throw McCoy into the shotgun a lot late in games and late in the season just to help him make plays. If we have to do that for McCoy, then I would rather take a guy with far superior talent and capabilities and let him work his way into the WCO. I don't see McCoy as the guy to lead a team, any team, to a Super Bowl ...... under any circumstances. His game has so many flaws that it is hard to imagine them all being repaired. It was a worthwhile experiment to see if we could catch lightning in a bottle, but we didn't. It's now time to go get a QB while we have the chance to do so.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Off the subject a bit...When i started this thread.. I really was hoping to get responses just like being posted in here..all of them..whether pro or con on Colt.. have been excellent...
Most QB threads turn into...a war zone....I actually enjoy reading the posts..and getting a good feel on Colt...As in his productivity...That was my intentions...We all see things differently...
And as you all point them out in a productive way... I can see all your points on him..great posts..really...No bashing..just well thought out...so cool.
At this point...Getting in an OC...( to your liking or not ) I sense some good comings to this team.. I can not say I'm sold on Colt...But I can say If there is a guy brought in ..via draft or FA..I welcome the competition...
I guess..I'm tired of the bashing and throwing our QB's under the atom bomb...the bus has left this town long ago...
I would at least like to give him another shot...just so I can say..I was being fair to his situation... from the short off season... new coaches..etc..
I will also..be more than happy to set that atomic bomb off..if he really comes out sucking...LOL...
It's an every day thing...everyone needs a chance to prove they can excel..in a new challenge...I know I do...I just don't have the spot light he does...and thank goodness....
But ...any ways ..thanks for all the informative posts....hard to do after another 4-12 season...hope to see it change soon..
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Quote:
Keeping Colt...may not be that bad of a decision.... Putting aside the dropped passes and the whole new scheme and coaches.. the short off season...He did appear to do more than what was seen in the 4-12 season..
And honestly... we all expected this..and how many would be ticked if we had a 6-10 - 7-9 season... Just to screw up the draft pick position.....
If the Browns go with the worst case scenario (according to some)...continue grooming Colt...what would you expect from McCoy in his 2nd year running the WCO?
Would anyone expect McCoy to play better in his second year, running the WCO?
I would expect McCoy to play better and be more productive in his second year running the WCO, even if the Browns didn't add anyone to the supporting cast. It was the first year playing the WCO for the entire offense and it would seem logical to see improved play from all 11 positions on the offense.
Not only would I expect the players to do much better the second year in the WCO, I would expect the Browns offensive coaches to do a better job of teaching the WCO, especially with the addition of Childress as OC and with Shurmur being in his second season teaching the WCO.
Then a question came to mind...what kind of teacher is Shurmur? He spent 7 yrs as the qb coach under Andy Reid, but Donovan McNabb already had 3 yrs experience playing the WCO before Shurmur took over as qb coach. I wanted to get some kind of indication what kind coach/teacher Shurmur is..is he a good teacher of the WCO?
I compared the year Shurmur had to teach the WCO to Sam Bradford vs the year Shurmur had to teach Colt McCoy and I was somewhat surprised at how closely the stats were for these two qbs were in their performances.
Year..Age..GS...W-L...Cmp/Att...%.....Yds...TD..Int..Lng...Y/A..Y/C....Y/G....Rate..Sk..Yds..
2010..23....16...7-9....354 /590..60.0..3512..18..15...49....6.0...9.9...219.5..76.5..34...244..
2011..24....13...4-9....265 /463..57.2..2733..14..11...56....5.9..10.3..210.2..74.6..32...173..
Considering the supporting cast each qb played with, the numbers are very close. If anything, you might conclude that Shurmur is consistant as a teacher of the WCO.
The addition of Childress can only help the Browns qbs because now they have a full time OC to help teach the WCO. I don't know that Childress is a better teacher than Shurmur but he is more experienced.
Bottom line, I would expect McCoy to have a better year, if he is the Browns starter for 2012.
GM strong...
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Not only would one expect better play, I think it is more like demand better play.
I am just not sure he has what it takes to be as good as we need. Colt will get better if he remains the starter. I just question if he will ever improve enough.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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If they opt to go with Colt and DO NOT improve the weapons then I would have to question the FO... but I would not just expect them to play "better".. they could play better and still be bad. I would expect a significant leap in productivity and efficiency.. I'm not talking Packers or Saints good yet.. but I would want to see them at least make a move to somewhere in the middle teens in terms of offense and scoring...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Not only would one expect better play, I think it is more like demand better play.
I am just not sure he has what it takes to be as good as we need. Colt will get better if he remains the starter. I just question if he will ever improve enough.
I would absolutely expect that "demand" would be the proper word to describe it.... and I also think that we'd see it. To what degree, however, is the big unknown.
I don't think people give enough credence to the fact that *everyone* was learning this offense this year. Not just him, not just the OL, or the TE's or the WR's... EVERYONE. There were mistakes made all over the place from the coaches on down, and a league leading number of drops certainly didn't help matters.
I think that there is a pretty good chance that we're a lot better than anyone thinks we are.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think that there is a pretty good chance that we're a lot better than anyone thinks we are.
god I hope so. I assume you are talking about the offense there.
unfortunately, I think there's a decent chance the defense isn't nearly as good as many think (still see gaping holes at RDE, CB2, FS, WOLB). obviously, not nearly as big of holes, but holes nonetheless that we need rectified.
#gmstrong
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Yes, I was speaking of the offense.... and I definitely agree that the defense is not as good as many were thinking, although, I have to say that they did impress me in the last couple of games of the season against Balt & Pitt. Both of those teams NEEDED to win against us, and our D gave them a heck of a fight. So, I think that kinda like the offense, that it is just a case of learning as the season went and needing some more talent here and there.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Not only would one expect better play, I think it is more like demand better play.
I am just not sure he has what it takes to be as good as we need. Colt will get better if he remains the starter. I just question if he will ever improve enough.
Only one way to find out!
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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And the questions then becomes how much improvement would need to be shown in order to know if Colt is the guy or not.
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Quote:
Quote:
Not only would one expect better play, I think it is more like demand better play.
I am just not sure he has what it takes to be as good as we need. Colt will get better if he remains the starter. I just question if he will ever improve enough.
Only one way to find out!
For us there is only one way since we don't have a team of "experts" grading the position.
I would like to think the guys in charge have a way of knowing based on film, talking to the guy, etc.,etc.
Here is where i am at on this. If HH&S decide Colt is the guy to lead the troops, I am good with the decision. However, I'd want all three of them fired at seasons end.
Especially if they haven't done anything in a significant way to improve the position....and that isn't drafting some QB in round 5 to "groom" along.
I'd draft a QB and tell Colt he is the guy, at least until the new guy beats him out...which IMO shouldn't take all that long.
I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 02/07/12 12:41 PM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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At first this seemed a bit extreme to me, but the more I think about it the more I agree. We have been a garbage team for too long. It shouldnt take 3+ seasons to turn things around. We have been making excuses too long.
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I didn't know where to put this so if anyone has a problem with it here PM me and I will move it.
Everyone has different expectations for the offense. How many points we score, how fast we see development but ultimately it comes down to what the offensive scheme is capable of whether we are taking baby steps or not. Cleveland Plays in the AFC North and the Rams plays in the NFC West. I did not factor in level of competetion and weather conditions or dropped passes or that Shurmer was pulling double duty and over his head in 2011. I just wanted to post some stats and see what type of conclusions some of you can come up with. In 48 Games as OC Shurmers offense has scored over 21 points 5 times. Have at it.
I wonder if we had a full off season and a healthy non distractng Hillis what the difference would be. I notice that around 6 Yards per Attempt is the norm, Bradford and McCoy Struggled learning a 2nd offense in 2 years in shortened season lacking talent(minus Stephen Jackson) as Bradford struggled in 2011.
191/357, 53.5%, 2,164, 6.1Y/A, 6TD/6int
Pat Shurmer was OC for the Rams in 2009 and 2010 and for the Browns in 2011.
2009 Rams
Scored 175 points (10.9/g), 32nd of 32 in the NFL.
Bulger 140-247, 56.7%, 1469yds, 5TD-6int. 5.9 Y/A
Boller 98-176, 55.7%, 899, 3-6, 5.1 Y/A
Null 73-119, 61.3%, 566, 3-9, 4.8Y/A
Steven Jackson 324Att, 1416 yds, 4.4 Y/A, 94.4 Y/G, 4TD, 51 Rec- 322yds
2010 Rams
Scored 289 points (18.1/g), 26th of 32 in the NFL.
Bradford 354-590, 60%, 3512, 18-15, 6.0Y/A
Steven Jackson 330Att, 1241 yds, 3.8 Y/A, 77.6 Y/G, 6TD, 46 Rec-383yds
2011 Browns
Scored 218 points (13.6/g), 30th of 32 in the NFL.
McCoy 265-463, 57.2%, 2733, 14-11, 5.9 Y/A
Wallace 55-107, 51.4%, 567, 2-2, 5.3 Y/A
Hillis 161Att, 587 yds, 3.6 Y/A, 58.7 Y/G, 3TD, 22 Rec-130yds
Obagnaya 76Att, 340 yds, 4.5 Y/A, 26.2 Y/G, 1TD, 23 Rec-165 yds
Hardesty 88Att, 266yds, 3.0 Y/A, 29.6 Y/G, 0TD, 14 Rec-122yds
2009 Rams
Scored over 21 points 1 time
NO 28 @ STL 23
2010 Rams
Scored over 21 points 3 times
WAS 16 @ STL 30
STL 36 @ DEN 33
SF 17 @ STL 25
2011 Browns
Scored over 21 points 1 time
CLE 27 @ IND 19
Last edited by LOYALDAWG; 02/07/12 01:52 PM.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I look at it like this;
(If) we draft a QB in the first round and we are in a very good position at 4 to either move up or stay the coarse and take him at 4.
(If) we bring in or pursue a FA QB like Matt Flynn and we certainly are in a good enough position financially to do so.
These moves would indicate to me to be more then simply hedging our bets behind McCoy.
I think they would be telling us that they do not feel that Colt will ever be good enough and that one more year of evaluation is not required in their minds.
If they do not sign a FA QB and or Draft a QB high, but maybe take flyer on a QB
later on in the Draft, then to me this would be hedging our bets and telling us that they are in fact not ready to throw in the towel on Colt McCoy and further evaluation is required to rule him out.
Either way they are more knowing and better then we fans or the media to make that determination.
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Quote:
I would expect McCoy to play better and be more productive in his second year running the WCO, even if the Browns didn't add anyone to the supporting cast.
DC...I was simply using the example above as a "worst case" scenario. At a minimum, I expect the Browns to add help at WR via the draft and/or free agency.
The Browns offensive line gelled in the last half of the season, but I could see the Browns adding one offensive lineman, either OT or OG, depending on Pinkston..whether he stays at OG or moves to RT.
Hopefully Steinbach returns 100%, ready to pickup where he left off at LG. The return of Steinie, plus a Pinkston with year of experience, the Browns offensive line should be improved even if they do not add a lineman.
Lauvao is at somewhat of a crossroad as he struggled with consistency. Hopefully he will return as a much improved OG this coming season. Pashos is on the bubble and could be released, which means the Browns either move Pinkston to RT or they draft or depend on free agency to fill the position.
I look for better offensive line play regardless of how the Browns decide to fill RG and/or RT.
I'm hoping the Browns sign Hillis, which would solidify the running game...something the Browns offense lacked most of the season. I do not want to use a high draft pick on a RB...I would rather use one of our first rounders on a WR.
I'm fine with drafting Blackmon if he is available or waiting until 22 to draft a WR. Of all the positions that need upgraded, I would rank the WRs as the position most in need of help. Drafting a WR in the first round and adding another via free agency would help the offensive production a bunch.
Upgrading positions of most need, plus another year of experience in the WCO should create better production from the offense. Hopefully, the addition of Childress will help stabilize the offensive coaching staff, which also is needed of improvement.
GM strong...
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That's the exact kinda thinking that got us into this mess..
You DO NOT fire a President, GM and HC simply because they backed the wrong horse.....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And if they consistently back the wrong horse?
SaintDawg™
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I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
Not a chance. Shurmur will get every opportunity to become a great coach ...... even if that means struggling through this year and next. Holmgren will give him all the time, and help he needs.
The only way that doesn't happen is if Lerner fired Holmgren, and if that happens, we're back to square -10 ...... starting over ..... with new schemes, and new players, and a bunch of guys who don't fit.
As far as another QB .... I think it depends on where we draft a guy. (if we do) If we take a guy at 4, I would expect him to start the season as the starter. Middle to end of the first ...... maybe he starts the season as the starter. After that, and I think it probably comes down to McCoy or Wallace.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
And if they consistently back the wrong horse?
At some point they all get axed... We start over again with a NEW and IMPROVED 5 year plan.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
So you would have benched Cam Newton after week 2 and fired Ron Rivera after week 5?
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
So you would have benched Cam Newton after week 2 and fired Ron Rivera after week 5?
Mike Vick/ Andy Reid
Bradford/ Spagnolo
Rivers/Turner
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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j/c I'd personally keep Holmgren as long as he wants to stay. Going to retirement sounds good to me. Since he's in charge he can figure out the rest, but I have no problem with Heckert staying 30 years and if they like the coaches then keeping them on as they see fit. I generally think I am smarter than Butch Davis, more stable and sane than Phil Savage, not an impotent weenie like Kokinis, and don't have the personality problems of Mangini...but I can't say I am more knowledgeable or stable/mature than Holmgren or Heckert. I find that comforting. I see no reason to end that...ever. I don't particularly care about how they perform this season. They are very experienced and everyone is on the same page philosophically. With the right players (QB) this FO will create a playoff team guaranteed. Incoherent FOs with no guiding philosophy don't stand a chance against this kind of setup. This FO is littered with QB coaches and experts in the offense. This FO is far and away the best we have had since returning; nothing else is even close frankly. So to anyone who says the word Fire. I say to you 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
So you would have benched Cam Newton after week 2 and fired Ron Rivera after week 5?
Mike Vick/ Andy Reid
Bradford/ Spagnolo
Rivers/Turner
there is probably a point there Loyal, but I don't see it.. help me out bud...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
So you would have benched Cam Newton after week 2 and fired Ron Rivera after week 5?
Mike Vick/ Andy Reid
Bradford/ Spagnolo
Rivers/Turner
there is probably a point there Loyal, but I don't see it.. help me out bud...
QBs who would have been benched last year under those rules.
coaches who would have been fired last yera under those rules.
also, the NYG didn't go under .500 last season, but they did go through a stretch in the middle where they lost 5 of 6 games.
#gmstrong
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Ahhh,, OK, thanks 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I didn't know where to put this so if anyone has a problem with it here PM me and I will move it.
Everyone has different expectations for the offense. How many points we score, how fast we see development but ultimately it comes down to what the offensive scheme is capable of whether we are taking baby steps or not. Cleveland Plays in the AFC North and the Rams plays in the NFC West. I did not factor in level of competetion and weather conditions or dropped passes or that Shurmer was pulling double duty and over his head in 2011. I just wanted to post some stats and see what type of conclusions some of you can come up with. In 48 Games as OC Shurmers offense has scored over 21 points 5 times. Have at it.
I wonder if we had a full off season and a healthy non distractng Hillis what the difference would be. I notice that around 6 Yards per Attempt is the norm, Bradford and McCoy Struggled learning a 2nd offense in 2 years in shortened season lacking talent(minus Stephen Jackson) as Bradford struggled in 2011.
191/357, 53.5%, 2,164, 6.1Y/A, 6TD/6int
Pat Shurmer was OC for the Rams in 2009 and 2010 and for the Browns in 2011.
2009 Rams
Scored 175 points (10.9/g), 32nd of 32 in the NFL.
Bulger 140-247, 56.7%, 1469yds, 5TD-6int. 5.9 Y/A
Boller 98-176, 55.7%, 899, 3-6, 5.1 Y/A
Null 73-119, 61.3%, 566, 3-9, 4.8Y/A
Steven Jackson 324Att, 1416 yds, 4.4 Y/A, 94.4 Y/G, 4TD, 51 Rec- 322yds
2010 Rams
Scored 289 points (18.1/g), 26th of 32 in the NFL.
Bradford 354-590, 60%, 3512, 18-15, 6.0Y/A
Steven Jackson 330Att, 1241 yds, 3.8 Y/A, 77.6 Y/G, 6TD, 46 Rec-383yds
2011 Browns
Scored 218 points (13.6/g), 30th of 32 in the NFL.
McCoy 265-463, 57.2%, 2733, 14-11, 5.9 Y/A
Wallace 55-107, 51.4%, 567, 2-2, 5.3 Y/A
Hillis 161Att, 587 yds, 3.6 Y/A, 58.7 Y/G, 3TD, 22 Rec-130yds
Obagnaya 76Att, 340 yds, 4.5 Y/A, 26.2 Y/G, 1TD, 23 Rec-165 yds
Hardesty 88Att, 266yds, 3.0 Y/A, 29.6 Y/G, 0TD, 14 Rec-122yds
2009 Rams
Scored over 21 points 1 time
NO 28 @ STL 23
2010 Rams
Scored over 21 points 3 times
WAS 16 @ STL 30
STL 36 @ DEN 33
SF 17 @ STL 25
2011 Browns
Scored over 21 points 1 time
CLE 27 @ IND 19
I may be reading this wrong, but I'm thinking that what it's telling me is that 1st round QB's running the WCO for the first time don't have it any easier than a 3rd round Pick does and the results may not be all that much different.
So I decided to look at the Green Bay Packers during Favres first year.. Just do see what I see.
Favre play 15 games
302 Completions
471 Attempts
3227 yards passing
6.85 Yards Average
18 TD's
13 INT's
6 fumbles
85.3 Rating
Edgar Bennett
16 games
2 starts
61 Attempts
214 yards
3.5 Average
Vince Workman
10 games,10 starts
159 Attempts
631 yards
4-0 average
Darrial Thompson
7 games, 4 starts
76 Attempts
254 yards
3.3 Average
So the top three backs ran for 1099 yards with an average of 3.7 yards
They went 9-7
What's that mean?
to me it means you don't judge the first year of a WCO to harshly.
Just a side note, the coaching staff of that team was pretty good.. Holmgren, Juaron, Rhodes, Grudin, Mariucci, Haskell and Reid were on that staff..
FWIW, if you look at our coaching staff as it stands today, it's pretty impressive also. Noting that we have Jauron, rhodes, Haskell on staff with Holmgren at the very top and deciples of Reid in Shurmur and Childress..
Maybe we just need to trust them?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
I may be reading this wrong, but I'm thinking that what it's telling me is that 1st round QB's running the WCO for the first time don't have it any easier than a 3rd round Pick does and the results may not be all that much different.
So I decided to look at the Green Bay Packers during Favres first year.. Just do see what I see.
Favre play 15 games
302 Completions
471 Attempts
3227 yards passing
6.85 Yards Average
18 TD's
13 INT's
6 fumbles
85.3 Rating
Edgar Bennett
16 games
2 starts
61 Attempts
214 yards
3.5 Average
Vince Workman
10 games,10 starts
159 Attempts
631 yards
4-0 average
Darrial Thompson
7 games, 4 starts
76 Attempts
254 yards
3.3 Average
So the top three backs ran for 1099 yards with an average of 3.7 yards
They went 9-7
What's that mean?
to me it means you don't judge the first year of a WCO to harshly.
Just a side note, the coaching staff of that team was pretty good.. Holmgren, Juaron, Rhodes, Grudin, Mariucci, Haskell and Reid were on that staff..
FWIW, if you look at our coaching staff as it stands today, it's pretty impressive also. Noting that we have Jauron, rhodes, Haskell on staff with Holmgren at the very top and deciples of Reid in Shurmur and Childress..
Maybe we just need to trust them?
Thanks Daman! I would agree we need to trust them and that the way they impliment the system seems to allow a growth period or a stage type learning in order to progress. I don't think it is the type of Offense that you install and are running it full throttle and seeing huge outputs.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Legend
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#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,366
Legend
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Legend
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Some great points. I think we are better than we were allowed to show. Mostly I think the lockout hurt us far more than clubs with experienced skill folks. But did we see the best of what we have. Not often, and it certainly would be player to player and change a good deal just that often. But we also wlll get better with a sensible year and some offensive weapons and better ST play. I think Colt can be carried a bit, but give him more protection and some proven targets. Much of what passed for game plan and calling needs to be better so that our guys are set up to perform and succeed. And we need to have enough depth to require better play or keep the rummies off the field.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Legend
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Legend
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That's the exact kinda thinking that got us into this mess..
You DO NOT fire a President, GM and HC simply because they backed the wrong horse.....
Sorry. I disagree. What do you do??? Give them a raise??
In re=reading my earlier comment, due to some edits, I left out they should be fired if it didn't work out with Colt.
I also gave a out by saying if they had also done nothing to hedge the bet.
You bet. If they decide to go with Colt and don't hedge the bet with nothing more than some guy out of "Turkey State" in the 5th round, they need to be run out of town.
I don't care what anybody says about continuity or patience, 4 win season can't be acceptable.
If you can't win at least 6 games, it should be automatic termination. No reasons or excuses accepted after 2-3 years on the job.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Quote:
I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
So you would have benched Cam Newton after week 2 and fired Ron Rivera after week 5?
No. Colt will be a 3rd year player next year. Cam was a rookie.
All situations are different, in different phases of development. Had Colt played like Cam, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we??
Come on man. I expect better out of you.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Sorry. I disagree. What do you do??? Give them a raise??
Yeah, right, that's what I meant 
If they go with Colt and it doesn't work out, NO, they should NOT be fired.. That's insane.. simply insane
at some point, an owner has to stop listening to knee jerk reactions of fans. he has to grow a set, pick his guy(s) and stick with them.
What do you want, to start over after every time a mistake is made?
That's just nuts
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry. I disagree. What do you do??? Give them a raise??
Yeah, right, that's what I meant
If they go with Colt and it doesn't work out, NO, they should NOT be fired.. That's insane.. simply insane
at some point, an owner has to stop listening to knee jerk reactions of fans. he has to grow a set, pick his guy(s) and stick with them.
What do you want, to start over after every time a mistake is made?
That's just nuts
I don't want to start over at all. I want them to get it right.
If you make the decision to stick with a loser QB 2.5 years in a row, you deserve to be dumped.
This isn't hard dude. Win every other game and nobody gets canned under my plan. You and a few others are acting like I am setting the bar too high for crying out loud. 6-8 keeps them in a job.....how in the hell is that
unreasonable after 3 years??
SF went from how many wins last year to how many wins this year???
I want that. You can mellow out on 4 wins all you want.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I don't want to start over at all. I want them to get it right.
We all do.
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If you make the decision to stick with a loser QB 2.5 years in a row, you deserve to be dumped.
Hold your horses here! Colt's first year, he wasn't even supposed to see the field. He did only due to him being the 3rd string qb, and the first 2 got hurt. We've all seen the reports about how the coaching staff ignored him right up until they had no choice.
So that's the half year in your "2 1/2" year scenario. His first full year of starting, he had nothing to build on - entirely new offense, no running game, and no receivers - heck, the Browns even cut a starting receiver in the middle of the year if you remember.
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This isn't hard dude. Win every other game and nobody gets canned under my plan. You and a few others are acting like I am setting the bar too high for crying out loud. 6-8 keeps them in a job.....how in the hell is that
unreasonable after 3 years??
That's not what you said though. Here, I copied what you said: "
Here is where i am at on this. If HH&S decide Colt is the guy to lead the troops, I am good with the decision. However, I'd want all three of them fired at seasons end.
Especially if they haven't done anything in a significant way to improve the position....and that isn't drafting some QB in round 5 to "groom" along.
I'd draft a QB and tell Colt he is the guy, at least until the new guy beats him out...which IMO shouldn't take all that long.
I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out."
SF went from how many wins last year to how many wins this year???
And they did it with what? A 6th or 7th year qb? (5th year? I don't know for sure), an awesome running game...........
But if Colt can't do it 1 1/2 years, fry him? If Colt can't do it in 2 1/2 years, can him, fire the coach, get rid of the front office, and start over? Seriously?
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Sorry Arch.....you're making excuses.
If by next year we can't manage to stay a game or two around middle of the road (.500) we need to move in a different direction.
Like I said to Daman, you can mellow out on a 4 win season all you want.
I won't.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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i agree they need to hedge their bets. it's why SD drafted Rivers, it's why GB had Brunell ready to take the starting spot from Favre, etc
no problem giving Colt one more shot to prove himself, but from what he has shown so far, they better have a planB in place too if that's the plan.
#gmstrong
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Ah. I don't see staring at the reality of the situation the Browns faced this year "making excuses". I call it reality.
If the Browns go 8-8 next year with Colt as the starter - it means nothing really. If they draft a qb and that guy starts, and finishes 4-12, it means not much. If the draftee (or free agent pickup) goes 8-8, it still won't mean much, will it?
If a rookie starts for the Browns, we'll take what we get, and tear him apart if he's not at a minimum 8-8. Trust me.
If Colt starts and goes 8-8, he'll be torn apart.
And, either way, if we finish at .500, there will be people calling for the coaches head. And Holmgrens, and Heckerts heads. Trust me.
Now, a rookie qb will absolutely get more leeway, and that is 100% understandable and expected, no doubt.
But..........and maybe it's because we've been bad for so long.........but, 8-8 won't appease many. And with a rookie qb, 8-8 would probably be a dream.
So, we can the coach, again, we can the front office, again. And where are we?
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At some point the Browns need to stick to their guns...........interesting article in last weeks S.I. About Robert Kraft and the patriots - how he way over paid for a terriblµ team, playing in an old stadium. Paid more than $50 million more than he wanted to. (and yes, at that time, when his max bid was supposedly $125 million, and he paid $175 million - that was a lot of coin).
At some point in time the Browns need to move past the "microwave it and have it ready tomorrow" plan, and actually stick to a team building plan. We've been microwaving since 1999.
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So if Romeo and Savage were still here, what? We'd be Super Bowl contenders?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
So if Romeo and Savage were still here, what? We'd be Super Bowl contenders?
Who knows?
We aren't now, are we? Better tear the team apart again. It's worked for us so good in the past, right?
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