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Peen...sitting with you at the games..I know your feelings.. and feel pretty much the same....
I often think that Holmgren...is trying to bring back the offense that worked under the Paul Brown era...or pre Super Bowl...
What ever you want to call it...The WCO...or the NCO...Paul Browns " O "
We are used to the hard running game....for what 30 years now ?
Bernie Kosar was very Impressed with " Air Coryell's "...Bill Walsh's..Offenses..Which is the way this team wants to go...
Like you..And everyone else...4 win seasons suck....I'm willing to give another season of trial.... But as you said..if it doesn't work..we need to move to another direction...Got to get through the season thou ...
And personally...All this talk on how the league wants to turn into a pass happy league...
Think about it..How many Elite QB's are there ? how many elite WR's are there...The league is taking away the team sport by making the QB's and WR's the focus...
Call me old fashion...But football is about team play....that includes all positions...from QB..RB..to the kicker and Defense....
If Colt had a good running game...and receivers that didn't lead the league in dropped passes...this would be a decent team..
.Hell we can argue that... But then..we can talk Brady and what his receivers did..just in the Super Bowl...Imagine those guys dropped passes like that all season...Would they be playing in the SB ?...Probably not..
I see an opportunity for this team...Focus on building a team...and not a one or two man band...things may get better...jmo...
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Peen is pretty much right.
look here is the deal and the situation:
the Browns have a GREAT position right now in the draft as long as they don't pee it away.
We are sitting on a HUGE pile of cash under the cap.
There is plenty of room for moves to be made to make this team competitive.
I am not asking for much....7-9 or 8-8 is not asking for very much at all.
If this team cna't win 7 or 8 games next season...its time to pull the plug....with the pile of cash we have and the high extra picks we have...we should be able to field a team that is .500 or close....if they can't even do that....then its time to move on....
It did not take Bellichik 3 or 4 years to win.
It didn't take Harbaugh 3 or 4 years to win.
Even Romeo Crennell posted a winning season year 3
This fanbase needs to stop making excuses for losing...losing breeds losing...losing breeds a losing mentality....there are no moral victories...only losers...
Its time for this team to pipe up and place their bets...actually do something....7 or 8 wins...its all i ask...all i ask is to not be the laughing stock of the freakin league! is that too much to ask? I don't think so!
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It did not take Bellichik 3 or 4 years to win.
It depends on which Bill your talking about..The Bill who was a HC in Cleveland from " 91-95"...who only had one winning season..in " 94 " then went 5-11 the next year..
It wasn't till 5 years later he became the HC for the Pat's... and yes...his first year he went 5-11 again.... but that was his last and only losing record...
I really don't think people are making excuses for losing....I basically feel that everyone has an opinion on what is going wrong with this team... and has different out looks on how to fix it...
As a fan base.. I think we have more class then the teams that have been winning for several seasons...lose a SB...and want their QB gone and HC fired...
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Quite frankly, I'm starting to agree with Ballpeen. We are this far in Holmgren's tenure.. We should start hitting the .500 mark and better this year.
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I entirely disagree.
The Browns will either have McCoy at QB; or a free agent / rookie who needs to be familiarized with this particular offense. How many games can people honestly expect them to win? Unless the running game is vicious they're are going to have an offense ranked between 25-32.
They should be above .500 against bad teams. That is what I want. The defense can beat the really really bad teams.
I fully expect they will lose 90% of the games where they are underdogs...which will be most of the games.
It will be disappointing and maybe its not fun to accept this early...but there is a huge likelihood we're looking at between 3-13 / 6-10 this season.
Thats how I see it at least. I find other opinions a bit baffling. For what its worth my prediction last season was 5 wins.
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Joe T is gonna retire before we find our franchise QB, then we'll be able to blame the line again. 
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At some point the Browns need to stick to their guns...........interesting article in last weeks S.I. About Robert Kraft and the patriots - how he way over paid for a terrible team, playing in an old stadium. Paid more than $50 million more than he wanted to. (and yes, at that time, when his max bid was supposedly $125 million, and he paid $175 million - that was a lot of coin).
At some point in time the Browns need to move past the "microwave it and have it ready tomorrow" plan, and actually stick to a team building plan. We've been microwaving since 1999.
Finally I agree...But we still need a QB...
Go Browns!!!
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yea.. i think we ARE sticking to the process of building a team, and not trying to piece one together with Elmer's glue.
Talent wise we are getting better. We have fewer holes each year. The QB spot will need to be addressed though until there is a clear cut winner at that position. We don't have that right now. Colt is young, and show's a hair of promise, but is he really going to be that guy?
My problem of late though has been the Browns not keeping their own talent. It's not a huge issue, but stop letting the talented guys we do have leave. If we do not resign hillis.. I will be highly upset.
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Sorry. I disagree. What do you do??? Give them a raise??
Yeah, right, that's what I meant 
If they go with Colt and it doesn't work out, NO, they should NOT be fired.. That's insane.. simply insane
at some point, an owner has to stop listening to knee jerk reactions of fans. he has to grow a set, pick his guy(s) and stick with them.
What do you want, to start over after every time a mistake is made?
That's just nuts
I don't want to start over at all. I want them to get it right.
If you make the decision to stick with a loser QB 2.5 years in a row, you deserve to be dumped.
This isn't hard dude. Win every other game and nobody gets canned under my plan. You and a few others are acting like I am setting the bar too high for crying out loud. 6-8 keeps them in a job.....how in the hell is that
unreasonable after 3 years??
SF went from how many wins last year to how many wins this year???
I want that. You can mellow out on 4 wins all you want.
Well, You got me confused bud.. You don't want to start over so what do you do if the current regime sticks with Colt and it doesn't work out,,, You said they should be fired.. That tells me that you think it would be time to start over... AGAIN...
SF.. Come on.. 7 year QB, Top talent around him and a D that was pretty darn solid. We can't be compared, we had too many holes..
I don't get this 2.5 year thing either. Colt wasn't even an afterthought in the Mangini program..
Yet, because he was rushed into service with virtually no guidences prior to the week before the Pitt game, that now counts..
Funny thing is, he didn't do horribly., by that I mean, he played like a very raw rookie 3rd round pick that was just thrown into the mix.
Not great, but did some good things.
Lots of people, including you, weren't totally ANTI-Colt after that...
My feeling is just what Holmgren said during the season (or was it Shurmur or Heckart) and that's that Colt McCoy was essentially a Rookie last year.
That would mean that this year is the start of his Second year.
But if you wanna look at what killed the team last season, I'll give you the biggest reason.
New System and NO TIME TO IMPLEMENT IT. Not an excuse, just a fact.
this year should be different 
Again, I have no idea what HH&S are thinking. Maybe they think Colts the man, maybe they think he "Could be" the man, or maybe they think he sucks.. Dunno which. And all the talk coming our of Berea isn't very telling either. Especially this time of year with the Draft and FA time approaching.
But I trust this regime,, Lots of experience at the top of the organization.
If they say Colt is the guy, then so be it. if not, Same thing..
Last edited by Damanshot; 02/08/12 09:14 AM.
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The Browns will either have McCoy at QB; or a free agent / rookie who needs to be familiarized with this particular offense. How many games can people honestly expect them to win?
Of the 3 qbs on the roster, McCoy could be the only one remaining after free agency and the draft.
The fact that Seneca Wallace is not interested in being a mentor to the younger qbs leads me to wonder why the Browns would want to keep him around.
Could the Browns be interested in replacing Wallace with Donovan McNabb?...If the price tag is not too steep, why not?
The idea of having a veteran qb who could start if needed and who is willing to help younger qbs learn the offense would be a positive upgrade at the qb position.
I have no idea whether Thaddeus Lewis is a good prospect to develop or not. I could see the Browns drafting another qb to compete for the #3 qb position. There is a qb in the draft who might be overlooked because he played for a small school, Tennessee-Chattanooga.
B.J. Coleman, 6-5, 220, was recruited by Phil Fulmer at Tennessee in 2007...Fulmer retired after the 2008 season and Lane Kiffin took over...Coleman decided to transfer to the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga where he had 3 good seasons for UTC but hurt his throwing shoulder and missed a few games his senior year.
Coleman was invited to participate in the East West Shrine game where he had a good week of practice and was the best qb in the game, 10-15 for 170 yds & a TD. Colman was noticed for his strong arm but his accuracy is a little suspect. This is nothing but a hunch, but he might be a good prospect to develop and I have little doubt he was noticed by the Browns.
...Brad Childress was the HC of West team and though he did not coach B.J. Coleman, he had to get a good look at him.
...also, the Browns already have a teammate of Coleman's on their roster..Buster Skrine.
The idea of McNabb replacing Wallace and Coleman being added...just hunches...possibilities.
The names could change, but I could see Wallace being replaced with another veteran and I would not be surprised to see the Browns add a qb from the draft.
jmho
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At some point the Browns need to stick to their guns...........interesting article in last weeks S.I. About Robert Kraft and the patriots - how he way over paid for a terrible team, playing in an old stadium. Paid more than $50 million more than he wanted to. (and yes, at that time, when his max bid was supposedly $125 million, and he paid $175 million - that was a lot of coin).
At some point in time the Browns need to move past the "microwave it and have it ready tomorrow" plan, and actually stick to a team building plan. We've been microwaving since 1999.
Finally I agree...But we still need a QB...
Funny thing about continuity...the teams that are always used as examples appear to have a winning formula in place, but is it because they "stuck to their guns" or is it because they finally found the right people?
The Pats had Pete Carroll before they had Belichek. Did they stay the course with him? Nope.
Before the Giants had Coughlin they had Fassel. He even got them close to the promised land. Did they stay the course with him? Nope.
How about the Lions. They DID stay the course with Matt Millen for seven Long seasons and were miserable. Then they changed to Martin Mayhew and now they are a solid playoff team.
It's not about continuity. It's about finding the right people, which is what we've failed at.
People seem to forget that we HAVE had continuity. How long did we stick with guys like Butch Davis and Savage and Crennel?
Continuity for the sake of continuity is idiotic. Just ask Lions fans. Teams that are applauded for their continuity only have it because they found the right people. That's something we've absolutely stunk at.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think it is a mix between having the right people and giving them time.
the Texans took time w/ Kubiak. they slowly built that team and were a Schaub injury away from being a real contender this year (and still did pretty good).
The hardest part is knowing when you have the right people and whether or not they should be given time. Honestly, in our past, it has been too crystal clear in most cases (the apalling lack of talent brought in by 1st regime, Butch just losing the team, Phil's off-field antics, Mangini-the-GM failure). Really, the only hard decision we have really made has been firing Mangini the HC because the team did look like it was making progress (even if not in record). That was obviously a philosophical difference (in strategy and teaching and probably more), so the question is if we now have the right coaching staff in place (we sure have alot of experience around).
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DING,DING,DING...we have a winner!
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Funny thing about continuity...the teams that are always used as examples appear to have a winning formula in place, but is it because they "stuck to their guns" or is it because they finally found the right people?
Oh Come on Toad.. It's that they found the right people and stood by them until the turn occured.
Pittsburgh and Chuck Noll (how long did it take for Rooney to find him)
New England and Bill Belichick
Green Bay and Mike Holmgren (long long drought until Wolf and Holmgren came along)
San Francisco and Bill Walsh
Chicago and Mike Ditka
Dallas and Jimmy Johnson
NY Giants and Bill Parcells
Buffalo and Marv Levy
Seattle and Mike Holmgren
How far do you wanna go back.. the list is crazy long.
More importantly, One year wonders abound.. Mangini for the Jets is a perfect example. What will happen with Harbaugh in SF, or Ryan in NY. Will they stick, or eventually flop.
If you are the owner, and you're convinced you got the right folks in charge, then you stick with them to the bitter end.., They will make plenty of mistakes.. some won't actually be mistakes but they'll feel like them (like taking a guy that everyone agrees is a stud only to find that he's a flop or that he suffers a career ending injury)
This isn't a sprint, it's a marathon..
Last edited by Damanshot; 02/08/12 12:59 PM.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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More importantly, One year wonders abound.. Mangini for the Jets is a perfect example.
how is Mangini the perfect example of a 1year wonder? he won 10 games his first year, then lost his starting QB early and flopped to 4 wins his second year. His last year in NY (w/ Favre) he was 9-3 and considered among the best teams in the NFL until Brett got hurt and they dropped their last 4 games to go 9-7.
and then Rex was lauded for going 9-7, 9-7, 8-8 (yes, he had playoff success, but making the playoffs at 9-7 is often lucky in itself).
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Continuity for the sake of continuity is idiotic. Just ask Lions fans. Teams that are applauded for their continuity only have it because they found the right people. That's something we've absolutely stunk at.
The difficult part is making the decision to make a change before their people have a chance. I think many times league-wide it could be said that so-and-so "never had a chance" before being canned for the next regime.
As I stated in my Case For The Current Regime thread where I compared our past regimes since our return this one is the only one who can be said to "be on the same page". That counts for a lot.
We have a superbowl winner as president and three former head coaches as assistants in charge of the offense and defense. All of the FO are of the same philosophy as are all of the coaching staff.
If this group doesn't deserve the time to implement their plan, however slow some think they are moving or however much we don't agree or understand it, then no group does.
How do you know if you've hit on the "right people" unless they're given a chance. A chance to build the talent, develop the schemes on both sides of the ball, find a quarterback, etc.
They have to at least be given the chance to build and develop quality talent. Heckert seems to be doing ok at that so far but he still needs more time to complete that task.
Until he's been given that time to rebuild the roster the coaching is only going to get so much out of it.
Calling it quits after two or three or even four years makes no sense at all. Especially with the regime we have in place right now.
One can sketch up a "dream team" of a head coach and assistants but what's the chance of landing that cast? What we have in place right now should be able to do the job with some tweaking a couple of years down the road.
Deciding too early that you don't have the right people and deciding to make a change is a decision headed for yet another decision that you still don't have the right people. Somewhere along the line that has to stop and someone must be given the chance to finish what they started.
In hindsight, every regime we've had up to this one had failure written all over it. This regime does not in my opinion. There's a ton of quality people in authority now and I vote to let 'em do their jobs.
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More importantly, One year wonders abound.. Mangini for the Jets is a perfect example.
how is Mangini the perfect example of a 1year wonder? he won 10 games his first year, then lost his starting QB early and flopped to 4 wins his second year. His last year in NY (w/ Favre) he was 9-3 and considered among the best teams in the NFL until Brett got hurt and they dropped their last 4 games to go 9-7.
and then Rex was lauded for going 9-7, 9-7, 8-8 (yes, he had playoff success, but making the playoffs at 9-7 is often lucky in itself).
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New York JetsMangini, 35, became the youngest head coach in the NFL when he was hired by the Jets on January 17, 2006, to replace Herm Edwards. He beat internal candidates Donnie Henderson, Mike Heimerdinger and Mike Westhoff and external candidates Jim Haslett, Mike Tice, Tim Lewis and Joe Vitt for the job.[7] He was quickly nicknamed "The Penguin" by receiver Laveranues Coles because of his waddle and fierce stare.[8]
In his first season, Mangini led the Jets to a 10-6 record and a postseason berth with NFL Comeback Player of the Year quarterback Chad Pennington. New York, which finished the previous year 4-12, lost to New England in a wild-card playoff game.
New York went 4-12 in 2007, failing to make the playoffs. Early in the regular season, Mangini complained to league officials that Belichick's Patriots illegally filmed the Jets' defensive signals, causing the "Spygate" scandal.
In 2008, a late-season collapse—the Jets missed the playoffs despite an 8-3 start—led to Mangini's firing on December 29, 2008, one day after the season ended.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Mangini
Bottom line, he had one good year, one losing season and one average season.
ONE GOOD YEAR thus a one year wonder.
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i'd say you either have to classify his 10-6 as average or his 9-7 as good. 1 game difference there (and the 9-7 was due to Favre getting hurt). JMHO.
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I'd do it this way. At any point we go 2 games below .500, the new QB enters for the remainder of the season.
Could be as early as week 3.
I'll even add this. At any point we go 3 games below .500, the coach is out.
So you would have benched Cam Newton after week 2 and fired Ron Rivera after week 5?
No. Colt will be a 3rd year player next year. Cam was a rookie.
All situations are different, in different phases of development. Had Colt played like Cam, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we??
Come on man. I expect better out of you.
My point doesn't really consider what year they were.. my point was that Cam threw for 400 yards in each of his first 2 games and lost. The problem with your plan is that it doesn't allow any consideration for the fact that Colt could play very well in his first few games and we could lose any way.
I'm also confused by your "I don't want to start over. I want to get it right" comment. But you are advocating firing the coach if we start slow. Isn't that, by definition, starting over?
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i'd say you either have to classify his 10-6 as average or his 9-7 as good. 1 game difference there (and the 9-7 was due to Favre getting hurt). JMHO.
I see your point. OK,, I'll retract that.
Let's go with Bud Carson then.. How's that?
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continuity ..(also called time-scheme)... is consistency of the characteristics of persons... plot... objects... places and events seen over some period of time. Quote:
It's not about continuity. It's about finding the right people, which is what we've failed at.
We failed at both...with out the right people...it's impossible to have continuity....Everyone has to share some ..of the same line of thought... and share some beliefs in the scheme of how the team wants to work...
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People seem to forget that we HAVE had continuity. How long did we stick with guys like Butch Davis and Savage and Crennel?
Bad example Toad...Sticking with doesn't mean continuity.. Savage didn't do crap for RAC....
Now this staff in place...pretty much all share the same beliefs and thoughts on how they want to run this team....
I wasn't keen on Chilly.... What I do know is that he is a hard nose coach...is firm on his beliefs and Imo...he is going to have a big impact on Colt....
As of right now..Colt is the starter...He has not lost his job to anyone yet....
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