different sure but you dont draft a feature back to split the load like that. we'd be very top heavy at RB. With our other holes we are not a team that needs an RB if hillis stays but we need a lot of other stuff. Thats why it would be lateral at best.
Quote: I fear more and more that Holmgren gets GM happy and starts pulling rank again...and as already shown with the selection of Colt...he has no clue
Colts's gonna take us all to the super bowl. Airline tickets, hotel, everything.
But what I really wanted to say was that Holmgren had already said to not be surprised if we take a QB every draft at some point. Always looking to improve and improving backups is improvement too. When you consider who we had here at QB when he drafted Colt, taking a 3rd round flyer on him wasn't that big a deal.
Back to Colt and the super bowl. He's getting us a limo too. And lots of spending cash. He's a good kid.
Quote: BJAX is a 3rd down back. That's not bad as he's a good 3rd down back, but if we go into the season relying on BJAX to be our primary ball carrier then something went wrong.
nolo...so Brandon Jackson gained over 700 yds playing 3rd down?
...come on man...
We have yet to see the guy play for the Browns and he's being labeled. I see the Browns using 2 or 3 backs this year, whether Hillis is here or not.
Quote: BJAX is a 3rd down back. That's not bad as he's a good 3rd down back, but if we go into the season relying on BJAX to be our primary ball carrier then something went wrong.
nolo...so Brandon Jackson gained over 700 yds playing 3rd down?
...come on man...
We have yet to see the guy play for the Browns and he's being labeled. I see the Browns using 2 or 3 backs this year, whether Hillis is here or not.
I think that the NFL in general is moving in that direction. Most teams seem to play a pretty decent rotation of backs. Teams like the Colts, Packers, Patriots, Saints, and others had a plethora of backs gain yardage for them. I think it helps keep guys from getting worn down, and also helps the team if a guy gets hurt. It seems like most teams today have, at least, a 2 man rotation that they try to keep fresh.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
GB had injury issues that forced him into a bigger role that year. And, he played poorly enough (3.7YPC) that they went to other options late in the year to find a spark (they found one in Starks).
BJAX is great at finding and picking up the blitz. He is a very good receiver out of the backfield. He is not the best runner. So yes, he is a 3rd down back and yes there is good value in that. Let's not oversell things hee.
Quote: We need to sign him to a decent contract. If he plays 13-14 games a year, that's pretty much average for an NFL RB.. almost all of them get hurt at some point every year and either miss a few games or are less productive because of it.
This team has enough holes, we don't need to create another one.
Agreed, sign him a 4 year and draft and couterpart to split carries with. That system has worked with the Texans, Panthers, and most other teams. I know it would work here.
Quote: GB had injury issues that forced him into a bigger role that year. And, he played poorly enough (3.7YPC) that they went to other options late in the year to find a spark (they found one in Starks).
nolo...3.7 ypc?...Brandon Jackson averaged 8.0 yds per catch.
I believe you mean, 3.7 rushing yds per attempt (ypa), right?
Yep, the Packers found Starks who made everyone forget Jackson?
Just one problem, what was Starks YPA in 2010?...hint, it was less than Jackson...try 3.5 rushing yds per attempt.
Those numbers (3.7, 3.5 ypa) are more of a reflection on GB's Oline blocking ability than the RBs ability.
Never forget, everything on offense, running and passing, begins with the Oline..not the QB or RB.
of course it begins with the OL. and Starks did run a bit better in the playoffs (only 29 regular season carries). but, you are still stumping for a RB who has never shown he can be a workhorse RB. I mean, he never has broken 200 carries in college or the NFL and has never broken 1000yds rushing.
I like BJAX. Alot. Think he's extremely under-rated as a blitz blocker and receiver out of the backfield. But, you seem to be stumping for him to be our main RB and that is just silly (if it happens because of injuries, fine, but that shouldn't be our first plan of attack).
BJAX has never had over 200 carries in a season (college or NFL) Ogbonnaya has never had 75 carries in a season (college or NFL) Hardesty had 1 great year in Tenn w/ 282 carries. Besides that, his injury history is well documented and never had more than 107 carries in a season (college or NFL)
I would be extremely fearful that our RBs would not be able to carry the burden of a regular season with their injury history and lack of history shouldering such a burden (even shared).
Quote: BJAX has never had over 200 carries in a season (college or NFL) Ogbonnaya has never had 75 carries in a season (college or NFL) Hardesty had 1 great year in Tenn w/ 282 carries. Besides that, his injury history is well documented and never had more than 107 carries in a season (college or NFL)
I would be extremely fearful that our RBs would not be able to carry the burden of a regular season with their injury history and lack of history shouldering such a burden (even shared).
No doubt if Hillis leaves we'll have to add a player of two through FA and the draft to try to shore up that patchwork of a backfield.
If Heck thinks that is good, we have the wrong guy making the calls.
Even if Hillis stays we will need to boost that group.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I agree that with Hillis' injury history piled onto that, we should need to boost it even if he stays. The thing is I like that Ogbonnaya kid. I don't want to lose him. BJAX is a great 3rd down back. In that role, I really like him. So, if we re-sign Hillis, then that really only leaves 1 slot open. Hardesty likely gets 1 more shot to prove he deserves the slot, but I really hope we would find someone to compete with him for it.
I wouldn't mind a Tolbert in place of Hillis, if Hillis does decide to leave.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Quote: draft a feature back to split the load like that
I guess we'll just have to disagree on that. I thought that the reason that we would draft a RB at #4 is because we would be getting a playmaker, and that's what we need. He would be the feature back, yes, but a sprinkle of PH here and there and even some 2 back sets. I know we have lots of holes to fill that's why we'd be drafting a playmaker with the #4
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180 You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow #GMSTRONG
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If the Browns are smart, they stay pat at #4 and Take Trent Richardson RB Alabama
This kid is a BEAST.....you don't understand...he may be the best RB to come out of the draft since Adrian Peterson.....this kid changes EVERYTHING here...he is a homerun hitter....Colt McCoy suddenly becomes a viable above-average NFL QB when he actually has a real running game....
you sign Hillis too...keep them both....we use Hillis much like the Steelers used Bettis...and give Richardson the freakin ball...
Richardson changes this team DAY ONE....he comes in DAY ONE and makes a difference.....not some waiting 3 years for a QB to "get it"...nonsense...why don't we follow through with Holmgren's plan and "develop McCoy" and take the RB...this seemed to work with Holmgren in Seattle with Alexander...
I won't be suprised if Holmgren wants Richardson...the dude has Alexander/Peterson written all over him....and he can catch out the backfield....Alexander had some good years under Holmgren....I won't be the least bit suprised if we stay pat and take Richardson....don't say i didn't tell you so.....;)
What does the Vikings draft position have to do with it? Besides..didn't Peterson miss some time this year?
Furthermore...are you willing to give up 2 picks to move up two spots? Im sorry..but Heckrt and Holmgren need their head examined if they think the cost of moving up two places is not highway robbery....we will be getting shanghaied in that deal...it doesn't make sense....this team needs talent EVERYWHERE...if RG3 or some Qb falls into our laps at 4 and Heck decides to take him at #4..i may not like it...but i would go along with it and understand why....but if he trades up to number 2 he is a dolt...the cost is way to high to move up two spots.
instead Heckert needs to Standpat....Richardson will most likely be BPA on the board at 4...you take him....then you use your 2nd 1st rder on Wr or D whichever they see fit...maybe even OL
We can easily improve this team into something competitive by standing pat and taking BPA....Richardson will be BPA at #4...the guy is a playmaker...im sick of drafting "non-playmakers" at high picks...you got a Adrian Peterson type of playmaker on the board and you don't want him is beyond me.....Richardson will be the best back we have had on this team since Leroy Kelly...and we need a Leroy Kelly....we need a playmaker....Richardson will be the 4th best player available in entire draft(maybe even 3rd or 2nd depending who you ask) that is great value! and we don't have to give up anything to get him...its a win-win for us....
right now this team does not have the luxury of trading away precious high draft picks for 1 player....it doesn't make sense....Heckert doesn't seem like the type to trade away draft picks...especially to move up two spots...i think many are going to be dissapointed we stay pat...I just don't see them giving up that much...RG3 may be a good player, but he is NOT worth the #4 and #24 picks...he is NOT worth that...we cna get a player of equal or better quality in richardson by just staying pat and taking BPA at 4....its the right logical move to make....
This org needs to take notes from the Steelers...the Steelers didn't trade up, give up draft picks, or anything to get Big Ben...he just happened to be on the board when they picked....thats what we need to do....as i said if a top Qb is there at #4 then you got a legitimate argument for taking him....however...don't trade up for him....thats just not good business...it will cost way too much to move up...if there is no top Qb on the board at #4 take what many expert consider the best playmaker available in the whole draft at #4 in Richardson and be happy...you probably just got the steal of the entire draft.
No its called you build a quality roster by standing pat with your picks and plan and take BPA
it doesn't make sense to give up the #4 and #24 picks for 1 player and to move up too spots...
RG3 is way too much hype....way too much...the kid has BUST written all over him...the kid "rarely" stays in the pocket, he likes to run...he plays mostly out of the shotgun...and his arm isn't even close to what Vince Young had.
In fact Vince Young was a better college Qb IN EVERY WAY compared to RG3 career...and look how Young turned out...and folks want to take RG3 that high?
RG3 is a poor man's Vince Young with a worse arm....if we take him...this franchise crashes and burns hard....Richardson is a "safe pick" for us.....
Richardson has great speed. richardson can run between the tackles Richardson can run outside the tackles richardson can block and pick up the blitz well. richardson has very nice soft hands to catch out the backfield.
RB is a much easier potions to transistion from college to the pros...the fact Richardson has GAME BREAKING speed and moves along with very good agility and power means this kid could be rookie of the year material.....Richardson has way less risk and way more reward potential then RG3....
I really hope we are not the team that takes RG3...because my laughing will be laughing of sorrow for my Browns...im hoping some other poor schmuch gets suckered by RG3 and wastes a pick on him...
the only QB in this draft worth a Top 5 pick is Luck......Even Luck is a gamble...but he way less of a gamble then RG3...atleast Luck has proven he can actually stay in the pocket and deliver an NFL caliber throw on a regular basis...RG3 just proves he can run around...how well did that work for vick and young?..oh yeah...it didn't..........
RB also has less impact on a team winning a Super Bowl.
We see guys like Adrian Peterson and Maurice Jones Drew, and Steve Jackson playing their asses off for 2-4 win teams.
I'm not convinced that building around a RB gets you to the promised land anymore.
Also, it is quite insulting to call a smart kid like RG3 a "Vince Young with a worse arm", when Vince Young wasn't exactly the brightest guy in the NCAA ....... and scored a 16 on his Wonderlik. He was the quintessential "right size" QB, checking in at 6'5" and 230. He had 44 TD passes and 28 INT in college ......which was not a great differentiation. There is no comparison to a guy like RG3.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: What does the Vikings draft position have to do with it? Besides..didn't Peterson miss some time this year?
one of the ways to show having a Peterson back doesn't "change everything" like you mentioned. he did miss time, as most RBs do, but it was all late in the year after the Vikings year was toast.
Quote: Furthermore...are you willing to give up 2 picks to move up two spots?
no. pretty adament about not doing that (talking 1st rounders, right?)
Quote: RG3 is way too much hype....way too much...the kid has BUST written all over him...the kid "rarely" stays in the pocket, he likes to run...he plays mostly out of the shotgun...and his arm isn't even close to what Vince Young had.
Ok, now I've stayed out of the vast majority of these redundant QB threads, but when I see something as just flat-wrong as this, it's time to break radio silence.
This business about how he "rarely" stays in the pocket is rediculous. If you've watched the games that I've watched, you'll see a player who actually prefers to stay in the pocket looking to throw. He mostly runs when his below-average offensive line forced him to move.
As for this business that his arm isn't close to what Vince Young brought to the table, it's actually the opposite. Griffin is a natural thrower who has uncanny accuracy. Young has a low, wild release that loses it's target on mid to long throws causing struggles with accuracy. Young is a guy who looks to run if his first read isn't there, while Griffin waits for his 2nd and 3rd reads to be declined before running. Simply put, Young runs first and throws second, Griffin throws first and runs second. This isn't hyperbole. This is reality.
But no sir, I'm not done...
Griffin is known to be a very smart kid who is mature for his age and has football intelligence. Young? An immature, self-centered, emotionally fragile kid who never learned to be a leader of men. These failing's have caused him to be expelled from one organization entirely, and he's rather close to being shown the door on his second.
No, Griffin is nothing like Young. He's many things that Young never was capable of being, and we aren't talking about his natural throwing ability.
Griffin has warts, but he's got passing tools that Vince Young never dreamed of having, even when he lied to himself about it.
There are holes with Griffin, but apples-to-apples, Young isn't in the same class as Griffin. He was simply overhyped because his scrambling in college made him out to be a man amongst boys, when the reality was he was never going to get better and suddenly was just an average and limited player in a league full of guys better than he was.
Ok, continue on people...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: RG3 is way too much hype....way too much...the kid has BUST written all over him...the kid "rarely" stays in the pocket, he likes to run...he plays mostly out of the shotgun...and his arm isn't even close to what Vince Young had.
Ok, now I've stayed out of the vast majority of these redundant QB threads, but when I see something as just flat-wrong as this, it's time to break radio silence.
This business about how he "rarely" stays in the pocket is rediculous. If you've watched the games that I've watched, you'll see a player who actually prefers to stay in the pocket looking to throw. He mostly runs when his below-average offensive line forced him to move.
As for this business that his arm isn't close to what Vince Young brought to the table, it's actually the opposite. Griffin is a natural thrower who has uncanny accuracy. Young has a low, wild release that loses it's target on mid to long throws causing struggles with accuracy. Young is a guy who looks to run if his first read isn't there, while Griffin waits for his 2nd and 3rd reads to be declined before running. Simply put, Young runs first and throws second, Griffin throws first and runs second. This isn't hyperbole. This is reality.
But no sir, I'm not done...
Griffin is known to be a very smart kid who is mature for his age and has football intelligence. Young? An immature, self-centered, emotionally fragile kid who never learned to be a leader of men. These failing's have caused him to be expelled from one organization entirely, and he's rather close to being shown the door on his second.
No, Griffin is nothing like Young. He's many things that Young never was capable of being, and we aren't talking about his natural throwing ability.
Griffin has warts, but he's got passing tools that Vince Young never dreamed of having, even when he lied to himself about it.
There are holes with Griffin, but apples-to-apples, Young isn't in the same class as Griffin. He was simply overhyped because his scrambling in college made him out to be a man amongst boys, when the reality was he was never going to get better and suddenly was just an average and limited player in a league full of guys better than he was.
Ok, continue on people...
Thank you....very well said! RG3 is the real deal, I will be happy to get him even if it cost both 1st. If we sit tight and he falls to us even better. But the point is we dont have a franchise QB as much as I like Colt he just doesnt have it. This is one the time to get one, RG3 welcome to Cleveland! This is Phil Taylor he will show you around!
Now back on topic if we for whatever reason part with Hillis then we need to make a serious offer to Matt Forte! He is at the top of my list out of all the FA RB's. Tolbert is a 2nd choice. The Forte Year Old Virgin is what we need with this WCO if wh choose to let Hillis walk. My hope is that we can work out a deal and keep Hillis.
Quote: Young is a guy who looks to run if his first read isn't there, while Griffin waits for his 2nd and 3rd reads to be declined before running. Simply put, Young runs first and throws second, Griffin throws first and runs second. This isn't hyperbole. This is reality.
The reality is, Robert Griffin was just as much of a "running qb" in college as Vince Young was.
Griffin's rush numbers in college..then Young's rush numbers in college...
** I did not include Griffin's rushing attempts (27) for the year (2009) he played only 3 games, missing the rest of the season due to surgery on his right knee for ACL injury.
As we can see, Griffin broke the pocket and ran the ball just as many times as Vince Young did in college. It is true that we do not know the circumstances of each time he broke the pocket and ran.
Do those college tendencies translate to Pro level? This goes back to the fight/flight response that becomes programmed into the brain of each qb when the defensive pass rush is applied.
Vince Young's firs two season as a pro... 2006 = 83 rushing attempts in 13 starts, placing him second behind Mike Vick's 123 att/16 games. 2007 = 93 rushing attempts in 15 starts, lead all qbs in rushing attempts 2009 = 55 rushing attempts in 10 starts
Griffin is a running qb and will be faced with the same issues all running qbs face when moving up to the pros...learning how to throw the ball away, rather than running the ball to escape defensive pressure. Griffin's physical stature is not that of a Vince Young so it will be important that he avoids as much unnecessary physical contact as he can.
Also, anyone feeling that Griffin will not struggle with his tendency to run the ball when defensive pressure is applied, is not being realistic.
** I did not include Griffin's rushing attempts (27) for the year (2009) he played only 3 games, missing the rest of the season due to surgery on his right knee for ACL injury.
As we can see, Griffin broke the pocket and ran the ball just as many times as Vince Young did in college. It is true that we do not know the circumstances of each time he broke the pocket and ran.
There are several problems with your assertion that they broke the pocket and ran equally...
One of those is that in those same 3 years, RGIII threw 372 MORE passes than did Vince Young.. So RGIII's pass to run ratio was much more tilted toward throwing the ball than running the ball than Youngs.. So if you break it down and assume that all runs are being forced from the pocket (which is wrong but I'll go with it for now)... RGIII dropped back 1573 times and ran 483.. 30%... Vince Young dropped back 1175 times and ran 457 times.. 38%... so RGIII was 26% more likely to throw it than was Young...
Second and third, sacks are counted as runs in college stats and those numbers do not contain any differential for designed runs.. both of which could skew the number of times they broke the pocket and ran compared to how many times they were sacked and how many times the run was called.. those numbers I could not find in my brief search but it has to be considered.
Fourth, RGIII had a higher completion %, a higher YPA and a significantly better TD to INT ratio.. so when he did throw the ball, which was more often, he was also more effective in every way.
if you look farther down the thread, you will see MAC posted the numbers...RG3 has rushed as many times if not more times then Young did through his college career.....RG3 is a running QB
I watch every college game pretty much toad..i have Satellite...i spend my saturdays with my friends drinking Ale and watching college football...its what I do...im telling you...RG3 is way too much hype...he will not be anything more then an average NFL QB...he relies way too much on his legs....he lacks Rothlisberger's size and big frame that allows Ben to break tackles, and he lacks Vicks speed on his wheels....when you look at the full picture, in RG3 you have a running Qb with an Average Arm...thats what you have...
I was against the Browns trading up for Quinn, I was against the Browns trading down with Mangini, and i was against Phil Savage trading with Baltimore..
Anyone who thinks giving up the #4 and #22 picks in the 1st round for RG3 is the EXACT REASON this team has been in the basement for about a decade.
when are you folks going to actually understand that to build a quality roster you need to stand pat at your draft position, don't trade away your picks, don't reach, and take BPA at that spot.
at #4 Richardson will be the BPA on the board talent wise across the entire board regardless of position.....the Browns need to pull the trigger on him..I doubt Hillis is coming back...richardson is a WCO back through and through...with a little bit of Thurman Thomas type of elusiveness and speed...its a no brainer for us to take him.....in St,Louis Shurmur had Jackson, in Seattle Holmgren had Alexander....it makes sense for us to stand pat and take richardson....we could do far worse then getting him trust me.
I think Washington mortages the farm to move up and get RG3.....I don't think Holmgren or Heck would be willing to give up #4 and #22 this year and next years #1 to move up (and that would be the asking price)...no way Holmgren or Heck do that...that price is way too high....smart man says Heck stays pat at #4 and takes BPA.....
You cna't risk trading down...if we trade down...richardson won't be there...Richardson will be gone in the 1st 6 picks....and he may be the BPA overall in this entire draft (including QB) in terms of overall talent....you cna't risk trading out and losing out on him.
taking Richardson at #4 is not a reach at all...he is and will be every bit as good as Peterson...he is definitly worth the #4 pick at the talent he brings to the table...this kid will be a game changer...mark my words...I doubt Hillis comes back...so we will take Richardson because the price to move up will be way more then we are willing to pay...no way Heck gives up the #4 and #22 this year, and a #1 or #2 next year to move up two spots...no way he does that...Heck is not a moron....he won't get shanghaied like Savage and company....I think many Browns fans are going to be dissapointed with us not getting RG3 or Luck but the asking price is just way too high...
I will say this though...don't be suprised if the Browns don't move up from #22 to say in the teens somewhere and take Tannenhill (Who IMO is a better QB for what we want here then RG3 is) as i feel the asking price won't be as high.....
Quote: Now back on topic if we for whatever reason part with Hillis then we need to make a serious offer to Matt Forte! He is at the top of my list out of all the FA RB's. Tolbert is a 2nd choice. The Forte Year Old Virgin is what we need with this WCO if wh choose to let Hillis walk. My hope is that we can work out a deal and keep Hillis.
If Forte doesn't get re-signed, he'll be franchised. He's the best player on the Chicago Bears Offense. Keep dreaming.
I hope we work out a deal with Hillis too. Then look for a RB somewhere in the draft, 3rd or 4th round. Hardesty is nowhere. I know a lot of people like Ogbunaya, but I don't think that he and Jackson can carry the load over a season if Hillis goes down. I'd like someone like Doug Martin, Bernard Pierce(4th or 5th), may be even LeMichael James
Quote: taking Richardson at #4 is not a reach at all...he is and will be every bit as good as Peterson...he is definitly worth the #4 pick at the talent he brings to the table...this kid will be a game changer...mark my words...I doubt Hillis comes back...so we will take Richardson because the price to move up will be way more then we are willing to pay...no way Heck gives up the #4 and #22 this year, and a #1 or #2 next year to move up two spots...no way he does that...Heck is not a moron....he won't get shanghaied like Savage and company....I think many Browns fans are going to be dissapointed with us not getting RG3 or Luck but the asking price is just way too high...
If we are at number 4 and RG3 isn't there/we don't think he's worth the #4, I'm fine with Richardson (so-long as Hillis isn't on the team). If Hillis is on the team, I have some reservations.
A lot of people are low on the idea of picking a RB early, but I've seen a lot of Trent Richardson (as I imagine you have too). IMO, he's a better prospect than Peterson was because he doesn't have the injury questions or the same "look for contact" style. Trent Richardson is possibly the best player in this draft outside of Andrew Luck.
I like safe picks, and he's about as safe as you get. He'll immediately contribute, and quite possibly could be the best player at his position next year (depending on Peterson's injury situation).
He's that good. HOF potential, for sure. People can list where all the top RBs were drafted all they want, but none are as talented as Richardson. Richardson has vision, speed, power, quickness, good hands, decent blocker. An every-down runningback
Quote: you will see MAC posted the numbers...RG3 has rushed as many times if not more times then Young did through his college career.....RG3 is a running QB
Which was answered.. by me.
If you look deeper, you will also see that RGIII ran considerably less than Cam Newton did in his one year at Auburn..
Quote: you will see MAC posted the numbers...RG3 has rushed as many times if not more times then Young did through his college career.....RG3 is a running QB
Which was answered.. by me.
If you look deeper, you will also see that RGIII ran considerably less than Cam Newton did in his one year at Auburn..
DC...I'm sorry, but you can't make RG into a pure pocket passer when he has run as much or more than Vince Young did during the same amount of time in college..3 yrs.
You can talk ratios and attempted passes and completions and YPA or anything you want to dream up...RGIII still has a history and a tendency to drop back to pass and if pressured or unable to find a receiver, pull it down and run the ball.
In the NFL, coaching staffs will not want Griffin running the ball like he did in college, where he averaged 161 carries per season. Coaches will try to break Griffin of his running habit preferring he just throw the ball away if the pass is not there, purely for safety reasons, not wanting to risk injury. Griffin's stature is not that of a Cam Newton or Ben Roethlisberger...Griffin is about the size of Colt McCoy.
On the play RGIII injured his knee, he was running the option play when he got bent backwards, tearing his ACL and was lost for the remainder of 2009. This is a great example of why whom ever drafts Griffin would prefer he remains in the pocket and pass the ball.
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