DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kevin Shaffer

Our O-Line has looked downright awful for just about every game so far this season. I think it's often a general feeling that we overpaid for Shaffer, even though paying the amount we did is the best you can do for free agent LT's. I was curious what the overall feeling that everyone here has of Shaffer's play so far in 2006. From what I've seen, and I'm no OL expert, is that he has been decent, mostly solid but has given up a few sacks (which LT doesn't?).

Unlike others, I like him, yes he has made mistakes but I also look at who he playing next to. We payed a lot to get him but he is signed for a long contract and I he is fairly young. Give him a good guard next to him and I think he will be fine. He also seems to fit the Cleveland Browns mold (if there is one) as a blue collar worker.

[color:"white"]Stiff as a left tackle. Too soft to play guard. Only salvagable option is as a right tackle. Otherwise he gets sent to the bench or cut and we eat the cap hit.

Savage apparently blew it on that one. [/color]

He's an average LT that takes a lot of flack for plays that aren't his fault. About 50% of the mistakes that ARE his fault are technique rather than inability - so he does have upside compared to what we've seen so far, assuming he can become more consistent.

He's not good enough to even consider passing up on an opportunity to snag a franchise LT, but he's the least of our worries on the OL right now.

JMO

that's the price of going into the draft with no obvious needs <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, i'm not too much of a fan of him either, but I'd like to see him with a good LG next to him before I give up.

if joe thomas is there, you can almost bet savage would pick him up.

I would give him another year (although I think he's terrible). If we don't see marked improvement, I would cut him and save as much money as I possibly could. We'll have to take a cap hit but that's better then having another 20 million tied up in a player that can't really help us.

Lets all start praying that Joe Thomas is somehow still available at our pick in 2007.

I remember reading that although the contract showed big numbers, if Shaffer didn't work out we wouldn't be in cap-hell if we decided he wasn't the fit we were after? Perhaps Savage didn't make the big mistake that a few are indicating!

Anyone with any info on this?

On Shaffer, I'd like to see a young stud LG next to him before I knock him too much.. I like Druzzi, but his injuries have taken thier toll on him....

[color:"white"]I dunno Dang, he's made some very pedestrian players look like all-pro's this year.

My thing with technique is.......if he hasn't learned it by now, why should we believe he'll suddenly get it in the middle of his career?

To me, he lacks power and quickness. I don't believe any technique can fix that.

I'll also say that unlike at center, having a guard won't help hide his inabilities when he's out on the island. That's why left tackles get paid the big bucks. They shouldn't require help.[/color]

Last I heard, Kevin Shaffer's contract is worth $36 million over seven years, including "only" $12.5 million in guarantees.

The value of the first three years of Shaffer's deal is $17.5 million. That's pretty much the going rate for an average left tackle.

He was our best option available last year. No more. No less. I think he'd be cut before he'd be moved to guard (unless he'd renegotiate), but opinions vary on that. Maybe RT depending on what the heck is up w/ Tucker.

No insult intended - and I mean that. I truly respect the bulk of your opinions/comments. Even when we don't agree you make me think, but we just have different opinions on how an OL works at a pro level. I seldom agree with your analysis on who's at fault when you do your play by play, but I don't want to argue about it in every single thread. If you want specific examples, no problem - we can compare notes. I think you over-simplify blocking schemes most of the time and don't really get what's going on. That's just my opinion and there's a lot of speculation by ANYONE when we watch the tape and try to guess who's job was what without knowing the calls.

The biggest thing I've not liked about him is getting beat to the outside and ending up in a neck-hold. That's foot speed and he's not going to get better there. His power is average, both in the running game and in holding up a power-rusher.

He doesn't suck, but he's not a top-flight LT either. I think he's pretty close to what Savage thought he was getting. The best available with some possible upside. No more, no less.

[color:"red"]He was our best option available last year. No more. No less. I think he'd be cut before he'd be moved to guard (unless he'd renegotiate), but opinions vary on that. Maybe RT depending on what the heck is up w/ Tucker. [/color]
Now lets look at that for a moment..LJ was SORRY at pass protection..but better than Verba at run blocking but still a subpar OT..
Shaffer was ranked if not even , slightly above LJ..so when LJ balked at Phil's offer he went to Shaffer.
Would I have done that?
Maybe..Perhaps I wouldn't have shelled out that kind of jack to anyone in FA...I would have brought in a vet but had him as a emergency plan so I could draft a future starter.
The additonal problem was that Phil didn't double up with taking a OT in the draft once Brickashaw got selected.
Phil also said because of the need of getting a pass rusher and a starter at ILB it precluded him going oline with the first three picks..
Now I'm a fan..but I do know a little bit about the draft and collge players <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />..personally, I would taken Wimbley..then Marcus McNeil..then a ILB (Gerris Wilkenson, LB Georgia Tech)in the third.
Thats me..and my choice.

Heh, heh. You can only base your actions in FA so much on the draft. You only have total control over one of those.

There's a lot of speculation on what he could have done. He could have traded, but we have no idea what he did and didn't try to make happen in that regard.
Shaffer was the best available in FA.

Phil moved up to get Jackson. Knowing how Phil values picks, I think that says a lot about how he felt about DQ. Right or wrong, he had DQ as the best on the board or he doesn't make that move.
ILB was a need position every bit as much as LT with Shaffer in place. If the LB is rated higher there's nothing else to think about.

No draft is perfect - ever.
I'm all for drafting OL when they are the best on the board at a need position, but the draft is too hit and miss to start letting higher value players go for a position-reach.

[color:"white"]

None taken.

However, if you know more than I do, then don't hold back. I'm on here to learn as much as vent and share opinion. The very reason why I'm going with the "upon further review" threads are to start real football discussion. Much of the rest of the bulk of the forums are tired filler.

As far as Shaffer goes, I've seen him bullrushed a ton this year as well. That's about power as much as it is technique and footspeed. And yeah, his nickname should be "Necktie."

To this point, he looks like a bottom-tiered LT to me. I don't place the value of his contract at face value in dollars, because they, like cornerbacks, are paid more than their relation to other players in the league. Having said that, while he is getting average left tackle money, he isn't even playing like an average left tackle. Again, going on memory here, he's getting essentially Jonan Jennings money. Yet he isn't playing at near the same level as Jennings. To me, that makes him a bad investment. [/color]

[color:"red"] Heh, heh. You can only base your actions in FA so much on the draft. You only have total control over one of those.
[/color]
Yeah I get that.I also get that Phil didn't want a real need to attend to in the draft but guess what?
He really did have two needs..OLB/ILB..he didn't have either going in.so he had to fill them..but we can speculate...
[color:"red"] Phil moved up to get Jackson. Knowing how Phil values picks, I think that says a lot about how he felt about DQ. Right or wrong, he had DQ as the best on the board or he doesn't make that move.
[/color]
And yet could we not(don't get me wrong here, I want DQ to be a star)say that another LB chosen later could have stepped in over Thompson as well?
I don't have a problem thinking outside the box even if I like a choice thats made..

j/c

I still haven't forgiven him for the hold on the 1st play of the year that took away an Edwards TD. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[color:"orange"]Counting this season...his base salary totals a little over 16mil throughout his contract (signed till 2012). If his entire contract was 36 mil...that means there are 20mil in bonuses...in the form of signing bonus and I guess roster bonuses out there given...or still up for grabs.

Attack -

Don't get me wrong, attack. I tend to be too "to the point" sometimes, but I don't intend to come across that way. I think you make some great points. I doubt Savage and his staff have an easy time with half of these decisions, and sometimes I'm sure they come down to little more than a "gut" feeling whether they want it that way or not.

My point was that Savage obviously have DQ rated very high on his board. I have no idea if that rating was accurate or not. I'm a BPA guy, so that makes it hard for me to speculate sometimes on draft issues except from the vantage point that I think who was selected wasn't the BPA. We could very well have been better off going the route you mentioned. I don't think Savage did anything to criticize him over, but I also agree that its possible that better alternatives were available.

Toad -

I posted some of my disagreements in the San Diego thread - but didn't get a response. I'd hoped Diam might help the Atlanta thread to no avail.

I'm not making excuses for the guy. He makes his share of mistakes and gets beat from time to time, but you also have to keep in mind that we are playing most of the top rated defenses in the league this year week in and week out.


"Bad investment"? That statement implies that there were better alternatives. I have yet to hear one despite asking everyone over and over again every time I read this same complaint.

That just doesn't make any sense to me. We didn't have a starting LT at the end of last season. Shelton was a FA. Savage is sitting there w/ NObody to play LT. Its an open slot. How tentative are you going into FA under those circumstances? His agent had us by the balls and he knew it. Over all, I think it was a pretty solid contract considering our situation....

[color:"red"] I doubt Savage and his staff have an easy time with half of these decisions, and sometimes I'm sure they come down to little more than a "gut" feeling whether they want it that way or not.
[/color]
No they don't have a easy time..if you read the article about how the selection of Wimbley came about , it was a battle..
Had DQ not been the best rated ILB , Savage would not have moved up to get him..in that case I don't know who he had rated under that.

Sounds like its front loaded the bonuses; if thats possible. This is from ESPN...

Shaffer's deal is for six years, totaling between $36 million -$37 million and includes $12 million in guarantees. The value of Shaffer's first three years will be $17.5 million.

From NFLPA
Salary History
2006 585000.00
2007 815000.00
2008 2900000.00
2009 2650000.00
2010 2900000.00
2011 3400000.00
2012 3400000.00

I'll chime in on this one.

My thoughts on Shaffer range somewhere between Toad's and danglet's.

When I've focused directly on him, he seems like a decent in-line blocker. Might not be powering guys back constantly but holds the line well.

On passing plays, he does get into trouble when he's facing a fast end and is left out on an island. He simply can;t seem to stay inside of the rusher and inevitably ends up with a crappy block but a GREAT clothesline. Maybe we should support his entry into the WWE... However, I don;t think he is a bad player, just an average one. I don't know about everyone else, but normally I see the pocket seems to collapse from penetration on the inside, not around the edge.

As for our logic in taking him, I think it was poor. The fact is that last year's draft was ridiculously deep for tackles, even after D'Brick. Although we'd be heading into the draft as Dorsey being our starting left tackle, I think there was enough talent in the draft to risk selecting your starting LT there.

Now, I say this, of course, in hindsight. With all the FA action this year, many fans thought this was a team that could contend for playoffs. Maybe Phil thought similarly and therefore was uncomfortable in rolling the dice on a rookie panning out.

But where does that leave us? Unfortunately, I don;t think this draft is that rich in tackles. After Joe Thomas, the talent level does drop off significantly.

So I say we continue to work with Shaff... Stick his big bald ass in ballet or something, improve his agility, something, anything to improve his blocking in space. I do believe, however, that he will look better with Andruzzi on the bench, who has just looked pitiful this year.

If we don't get Druz's replacement this year, I'd suggest we draft a doctor in the third round...Charlie will need it,.

[color:"white"]
Return volley, as if I missed a comment of yours in the Chargers thread (have had to reinstall winblows 3 times in the past 10 days), I replied to that question by saying I would have traded for Wayne Gandy, who went from the Saints to the Falcons for a safety and a late-round draft pick <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now, technically, I'm not saying that there were other alternatives (though I listed my own, hehe), I'm saying that we invested more money into Shaffer than he probably deserves, hence the word "investment." I towed the company line by staving off my negative comments while allowing Savage's thoughts of "Shaffer has upside" to work their way through the season. So far, I haven't seen what he saw.

Now, to be fair about it all, I balked when I saw the offer that Savage extended to Shelton. I was even more shocked to see him decline it as he wanted more money. Then I was shocked to see what Savage gave to Shaffer. It looked like a panic move to me, and so far, I think that's what it was. It was my opinion that when we signed him that he wasn't our left tackle of the future, but only for this season. Eo and I agreed he probably wasn't the answer at left tackle down the road. So far, I'm no longer convinced he can move to right tackle, and I am making a huge assumption here by saying I doubt Eo believes he'd make a good guard.

So that brings me back to my stance of bringing in a left tackle to take over for him, and in that light, he's making more money than he's worth either as a left tackle or at another position.

To answer your fair question again, I would have gone after Gandy, as Brown was being moved to LT. I would imagine there were other options out there as well, though I'll have to go back through the archives and look at options. To me, Shaffer wasn't worth the $17 mil in the first three years (or whatever it came out to), and sadly, I don't think he will be. [/color]

[/color]

Just for the hell of it, I figured I'd crunch some numbers.

Before anyone starts, YES I realize that stats don;t account for everything that happens in a game or pressures or stunts...yadda yadda ya...

However, I still think they have a value in providing a snapshot.

I've gone through the list of the ends and, in the case of 3-4 alignment, the OLBs that have likely been Shaffer's responsibility to block and checked their sack numbers for the game.

New Orleans- Will Smith- 1 sack
Cincinnati- Justin Smith- 0 sack
Baltimore- Haloti Ngata/Adelius Thomas- 0 sack/1 sack
Oakland- Derrick Burgess- 2 sacks
Carolina- Mike Rucker- 0 sack
Denver- Ebenezer Ekuban/Elvis Dumervil- 0 sack/3 sack
New York Jets- Bryan Thomas- 1 sack
San Diego- Jacques Cesaire/Igor Olashansky/Carlos Polk- 2 sacks/0 sacks/o sack
Atlanta- Paul Carrington- 1 sack
Pittsburgh- Brett Kiesel/Joey Porter- 0.5 sack/0.5 sack
Cincinnati- Justin Smith- 0 sacks

SO for those of you counting at home, that's 12 sacks of the 43 Frye has suffered so far this year that can be likely attributed to Shaffer.

Now, despite my earlier defence of this guy, this seems high. If you look at it, his problem with speed rushers is obvious (Dumervil with 3, Burgess with 2).

Just for your info dawgs...take it as you wish.

[color:"white"]I'll tell you what's most shocking about that little bit of work:

[color:"white"]

Smith absolutely abused Shaffer about all freakin' day. [/color]

[color:"orange"]Just off the top of my head, when you mentioned Elvis Dumervil I'm pretty sure at least 2 of those sacks if not 3 of those sacks of his came at the expense of Tucker who was ill that day.

That would put his total at 9-10, not great, but it be interesting to see how that stacks up with othe LT's #s...

Regardless, good post. [/color]

Canada
Stats are like ginsu knives. Great tool, but use w/ caution. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I have a very short list of principles (related to football) that I've always refused to compromise on. Most relate to drafting and this is one point we're just not going to agree on.
I would never advocate drafting by position for a team in our position last year. That being the case, there's no way I could justify heading into the draft w/ Dorsey as my only alternative at LT. I'd fire myself. I don't care how deep the draft is at any position. That's a drafting strategy for a team that has 1 or two holes, not an entire team of holes, IMO. We have two LBs with potentially unlimited upside on the team from those first two rounds. I'm just not willing to second guess those results.

Toad
I might be misreading your response here, but the question about Shaffer wasn't what I was referring to about the San Diego thread. It was in reference to your statements of "Shaffer needing to see that blitz coming". Charlie caused 90% of his own sacks in that game.

Again, similar to Canada, I think we're disagreeing on a principle of sorts. I'm not going to criticize Savage for not executing a trade because I have no idea if he pursued the trade, what the terms were if he did,etc, etc. I know of FA options and draft options. My preference is not to speculate outside of that arena since we have no knowledge of what the "option" was.

We all pretty much agree that the guy is over-paid. You both see other options that we had that I don't see as viable, so I see the over-pay as a necessity and you see the over-pay as a bad choice.
Minor differences. I think we're really pretty much on the same page here.

[color:"white"]Ah, as a courtesy, I'll go back and see if I still have the Chargers game (and more importantly, if I can still run it). I think I'm going to have to reload winblows yet again, so we'll see how it goes. If I have to reload it, I'm not going to back up the little data I have as I fear it could be corrupted or worse. [/color]

j/k

My problem with shaffer is that he is constantly getting beat around the end. I've read where a couple of people have questioned how he would be if he had a better guard next to him but I usually see him getting beat by quicker ends around the outside. If the problem was the guard next to him then he wouldn't be getting handled out on the island away from that guard like he was last week by Smith.

Someone pointed out that Smith didn't have a sack last week but that isn't the only way he can effect the play. I saw him beat Shaffer around the outside time and time again. then Frye would have to leave the pocket and try to make a play on the run.

Without actually watching the all the games again, knowing the coverages and responsibilities I have a hard time pointing blame on Shaffer for all of them. That being said, I don't think he is a great OT but not bad one either and is fairly young (26) and healthy....knock on wood <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

He will continue to work hard and progress and will improve as the rest of the team grows.

Not responding to you Toad, clicked the wrong name.

A simple step up into the pocket by the QB could fix this; oh wait the guards and center are getting beat too, along with RB missing a block means Frye is screwed. I have also seen our TE's wiff as well which can look like Shaffer missed a block but didn't. Not saying hes perfect but he is not as bad as many think IMO. BTW many tackles get beat by Smith. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Your right many tackles get beat by Smith. That doesn't mean I want to see it over and over from the guy on my team. I'm not of the opinion that he is horrible. I just don't think that because of the deal he got last year he isn't above being upgraded. Maybe a move to the right side would help. He is also young with nothing but upside so it isn't like we have nothing to work with.

Almost average LT, but he still has some upside. IMO he gets bashed to often on this board.

I remember early in the season seeing the left side collapse quickly and Frye having to scramble to his right. I havent looked back at any of the games, so I dont quiet know who was to fault.

IMO, I think Shaffer was a bright future here. I agree w/ Toad that he's an average LT, and RT would probably be better a postiton for him

I believe that would put him across from Igor Olshansky or Steven Cooper.

Igor is a power rusher, Cooper is Shawn Phillips Backup.

Schaffer is a KEEPER in my book... if anything.. its the RT position that needs help.. Frye gets hit more on his open side then his blind side from what i've seen...

You are correct..it seems the blitz that comes on that side is hardly EVER picked up correctly and I've watched the back on that side and he(whoever is in on that series) turns to help out on the other side and WHIFFS at the block.

A horrible guard will make the best of tackle look bad. Replace Druzzi and both Shaffer and Fraley will show amazing improvement.

Just wondering...


How does that work?

Easy...

Fraley is good, but no LeCharles Bentley, and Kevin Shaffer is good, but no Walter Jones.

They're not good enough to cover up the mistakes of the craptastic lineman in the middle, therefore Andruzzi brings them down with him.

Unless a premiere LT falls in our laps in the draft, in the next season or two, I think we're stuck with Shaffer. Now I don't think he's great, far from it, but if we had better Guards then it may help. He's going to get beat from the better linemen and LB's in the NFL. I'd like to see an upgrade at most every position on the OL.