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I would trade the 4 and 22 for Luck..
I would draft Griffin at 4
If the above doesn't happen.. Keep Colt and ignore the rest of the QB's in this class.
I think that we will pick a QB in the Draft if not the 1st round then later.
Either way we still keep Colt.
You would like a first round pick to be able to come in and start, but most QB's are not ready to step in and start in a totally new offense from what they are accustomed to.
Luck played in a pro style offense and should be able to come in and start right away, but I don't see another QB in this draft, that is as ready to come in and execute a completed offense and get the footwork and timing down (from under center) right out of the gate.
If I'm trading up in the Draft for a Top 1-2 QB, then I better be sure that he can start paying dividends from the get go and not just some Taylor maid offense built around their specific talents.
That will work in the short term, but come the offseason they will have to learn how to play the position as the offense dictates they do.
Teams who trade down in the top 5 usually come away the winners.
Great philosophy being thrown around that you need to go get your QB whatever it cost 
Great when it works out. 
Greatly hinders growth if it does not. 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
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that's how you end up with no QB. The Eagles had McNabb for years (who was taken #2 overall, BTW) then they acquired Vick as a FA. They tried sitting him behind their day 2 project and realized he was shippable.
Holmgren drafts mid-round QBs, but which is the last one that panned out?
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Teams who trade down in the top 5 usually come away the winners.
Present company excluded, of course.
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that's how you end up with no QB. The Eagles had McNabb for years (who was taken #2 overall, BTW) then they acquired Vick as a FA. They tried sitting him behind their day 2 project and realized he was shippable.
Holmgren drafts mid-round QBs, but which is the last one that panned out?
I left out Seattle for a reason 
Hasselbeck, Brunell, then Aaron Brooks after Holmgren left (there were more but those are off the top of my head at the moment). All mid-round QBs who thrived to some degree and got a good ROI.
the Eagles also had AJ Feeley who they shipped out. and they got something back for McNabb because they felt they had a solid base in Kolb+Vick. And then they got something for Kolb.
doesn't matter if those guys panned out where they went even. Just that the team that drafted them got a good ROI (as I was saying to draft one of those guys in the mid-rounds if they decide to NOT replace Colt next year)
#gmstrong
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Teams who trade down in the top 5 usually come away the winners.
Present company excluded, of course.
The book is still open on last years trade. We still have the 22nd selection and another 4th coming from that trade.
If we use it (#22) in a trade, then it will become married to that trade as well. That's why I say that selection is not an insignificant selection as some seem to think of it as an after thought around here.
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Just a general question here ...... because I really am curious about this .....
For those who would sign Flynn ..... and let's be honest, it will almost certainly take more than $10 million guaranteed to do so ........ why do you want him?
edit: clarified the contract below.
first, he will take more than $10mil guaranteed. that is basically a 1 year trial run with him at today's rates. he will require $20-25mil guaranteed on a 5yr/$50mil contract as that makes it pretty guaranteed you will go with him for 2 years at least (frontloading the guarantees). see contracts for Kolb, Cassel, Fitzpatrick.
second, I have been probably the most ardent "get Flynn" proponent. but, I have also been very up-front about the positives and negatives. here is a refresher:
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Positives
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GB Offense doesn't appear to drop-off when he is inserted into the game. Unlike in places like Chicago, KC, Indy, etc. where a missing QB has completely hindered the offense.
He is an accurate passer. Don't think this one is very debateable. It was his reputation in college, and he has done nothing in the NFL to show that is not the case.
He knows the WCO. It might not be the exact same offense we will run, but it is very likely it will have the same terminology, same basic route trees, same types of QB reads, etc.
He is a UFA. No compensation required other than his contract.
He has shown (in limited duty obviously) that he can throw accurate deep balls in cold weather.
If we sign a UFA, then we can focus our draft on getting him weapons. Blackmon/Lamar Miller/Adcock becomes a possibility for our top3 picks.
GB's QB coach has proven through Rodgers that he can coach-up a backup QB and get him to play at a very high level (teaching is incredibly important).
He did beat out Brohm who was a 2nd round draft pick in the same draft for GB for the backup job despite the higher investment in Brohm (minor note, but still a note)
He comes from a winning program in GB and perhaps can bring in some intangible aspects (how to work off the field, how to carry a locker room, etc) as other players can do from such programs. Knowing what you need to do to win is an important part of winning (this is obviously not a guarantee but it should be noted).
Negatives
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Not the most physically adept QB. He's not a towering QB nor is he a huge Big Ben / Cam Newton type guy.
He doesn't have the strongest arm.
He does not have a ton of experience. It is possible that once defenses adjust to his strengths/weaknesses that he may not be able to adjust himself and fail (which is where the Kelly Holcomb comparisons are coming from).
He has looked great in the GB-system with GB-weapons. We do not have those weapons. Can he elevate lesser talent?
He will command a hefty contract. With Barkley staying, there are only 2 top10 draftable QBs in this draft (Luck and RGIII). Miami, Washington, and Seattle will definitely consider him. The Jets, Chiefs, Rams, and others may consider making a switch at QB if they can pay rather than use a draft pick. Probably Kevin Kolb money, but possible that we can get an "out" clause in it after 2 seasons much like is rumored that Arizona has with Kolb (up-front guaranteed money instead of spread out so that there isn't a huge cap-hit or cap-hold if you cut bait).
==================================
My thought on it is that unless our FO is completely sold on RGIII (and he has some negatives though I like him), then we should go after Flynn. We have the lure of utilizing the WCO (which we can say we will mold more like GBs if he we get him), we have a possibility of weapons through the draft, and we have Holmgren (the most senior member of the WCO club in the NFL).
I don't think that will be enough for Flynn when he can go to Miami and get back to the warm weather with better weapons already on the team (with his former-OC as HC and Sherman as OC), but I would definitely put us ahead of Washington and their littany of issues. Probably ahead of Seattle too. The others are complete wild-cards at this point.
Last edited by no_logo_required; 02/14/12 01:28 PM.
#gmstrong
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I as talking about the time we traded out of #5, not the time we traded out of #6. 
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I as talking about the time we traded out of #5, not the time we traded out of #6.
is Alex Mack really worse than Mark Sanchez? (and yeah, we should have ended up with more than Mack but that question still remains)
#gmstrong
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I as talking about the time we traded out of #5, not the time we traded out of #6.
Your correct my bad. Feeling a little under the weather today ... Please bare with me.
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Please bare with me.
I would just as soon that the both of you keep your clothes on ..........
Please.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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it's not like you can see him. let him do as he pleases. or did you hire one of those drone planes to spy on him?
#gmstrong
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it's not like you can see him. let him do as he pleases. or did you hire one of those drone planes to spy on him?
If I had one of them, I can think of a lot better uses to put it to than that.  lol
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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it's not like you can see him. let him do as he pleases. or did you hire one of those drone planes to spy on him?
If I had one of them, I can think of a lot better uses to put it to than that. lol
yeah, you'd spy on the Berea offices to get a peek at their draft board. that's what we were all thinking, right?
#gmstrong
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it's not like you can see him. let him do as he pleases. or did you hire one of those drone planes to spy on him?
If I had one of them, I can think of a lot better uses to put it to than that. lol
yeah, you'd spy on the Berea offices to get a peek at their draft board. that's what we were all thinking, right?
Umm ,...... yeah ...... draft board .......that's what I was thinking ..... of course ........ 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
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it's not like you can see him. let him do as he pleases. or did you hire one of those drone planes to spy on him?
If I had one of them, I can think of a lot better uses to put it to than that. lol
Man I sure hope so.
I realize there is a news drought we are experiencing, but Wow, just Wow! That's some imagination you have there bud 
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Sorry for the delay in putting out a figure (class I'm TAing has a midterm on Friday) - will try to get it out in the next few days.
Thanks for the overwhelming response, I think this will be pretty interesting.
~Lyuokdea
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Andrew Luck - (Would trade #4, #22, 2013 1st Round pick) - Huge price to pay but it's worth it for me if we get our guy.
Robert Griffin III - (Would trade #4 and #22) - Need to see if RGIII does well under center at the combine/pro day before being gung ho about trading up for him but I expect him to do well.
Ryan Tannehill - (Would draft at #37) - Not a huge fan of his but I think #37 would be a fair price to pay.
Brock Osweiler - (Would not draft in 3rd round) - I'd take him after though, he's not a great fit for the WCO.
Nick Foles - (Would not draft in 3rd round) - I'd take him later as well based on the physical tools but something about him just reeks of bust.
Brandon Weeden - (Would not draft in 3rd round) - Let someone else take a risk on a guy who's almost 30. We need to keep rebuilding.
Matt Flynn - (Would not sign because demands will be too high) - If I could get him for that 2 year 10M contract and didn't think I'd get a guy in the draft then sure. The problem is that he's going to want WAY more than that and won't be worth it.
Kevin Kolb - (Would sign for 2 year deal ~10 million guaranteed) - I think Kolb would probably come relatively cheap so if we're going to gamble on a FA, I'd pick him and let him compete with Colt. That said, I'm still "draft a guy or bust" at this point so this is a fallback all the way.
Jason Campbell - (Would not sign) - Fragile and has never had any real success.
Donovon McNabb - (Would sign for peanuts if he wants to mentor RGIII, otherwise no way) - I want nothing to do with McNabb as a starter. I want nothing to do with him as #2 because he'll want to start. Unless he just wants to come in and hold a clipboard, I say screw it.
Kyle Orton - (Would not sign) - Another guy that has proven again and again he's mediocre. Why should we give him real money?
We're... we're good?
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Practice Squad
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Andrew Luck - Would trade three number ones for him maybe three ones and a two
Robert Griffin III - would draft at 22
Ryan Tannehill - (would draft in the 2nd
Brock Osweiler -would not draft
Nick Foles - would draft in third
Brandon Weedon - would draft in third
Matt Flynn - Would sign for the right amount
Kevin Kolb - Would consider if released
Jason Campbell - Would not sign
Donovon McNabb - (Would not sign)
Kyle Orton - Would sign if everyone else is gone
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I would rely on Holmgren and Heckerts expertise and the tools they have to evaluate McCoy. Tools that noone on this board has unless we have Browns coaching staff posting on here.But going along with some of the speculation here and assuming that Colt is not the guy.
Andrew Luck - I would use #4 and #22 to move up...but no more.
Robert Griffin III - would draft at #4.
Ryan Tannehill - would draft at #22.
Brock Osweiler -4th or later
Nick Foles - 4th or later
Brandon Weedon - 4th or later
Matt Flynn - Aside from one game has proven nothing.Would not sign.
Kevin Kolb - Would not sign
Jason Campbell - I would think about it depending on the price.
Donovon McNabb - Would not sign
Kyle Orton - I would think about it depending on the price.
If we can't get Luck and believe McCoy is not the guy I would love to trade down and pick up an extra #1 next year( and more his year) and maybe have the ammo to get Barkley. I think he will be better than Griffin.
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Andrew Luck - My Current offer to the Colts: 2012 #4 2012 #22 OR 2013 1st Round 2012 #118 (4th Round) 2013 2nd Round (Made a 3rd if they take the '13 1st) 2013 4th Round (Made a 5th if they take the '13 1st) With Manning all but gone in Indy, I don't think (barring someone hiring Ditka) there is any deal that will pry Luck out of Indy's grasp, My only thought basically was for them to keep Manning and be interested in RG3 to learn behind him (his deep ball skills would fit Arian's Offense well) Robert Griffin III - I've only recently come around to even taking him at #4, I DO NOT want to trade up for him though. Ryan Tannehill - #37 and No sooner, I like his size, and the fact that he's already played in a similar system, But he's very Raw, and I think needs to sit and learn for a tad bit, therefore not worth a 1st... SIDE NOTE: I am of the belief that sitting and learning for a bit would benefit RG3 aswell GREATLY< However his athletic ability is going to probably push him to starting sooner than that, depending on whos infront of him... Brock Osweiler - (Would not draft in 3rd round), Not too familiar with him, heard he probably should of stayed at least another year... Nick Foles - (Would CONSIDER drafting in 3rd round) I think he (and Cousins) are solid QBs, both fit the Kyle Orton mode, can come in and play somewhat well, but probably will never LEAD a team to much of anything... Brandon Weedon - (Would draft in 3rd round) I think he's very talented, If he wasn't 4 years older than me, he'd probably be going higher... Matt Flynn - I honestly don't care how much it costs, if we bring him in, it shows the FO believes the two games he had weren't flukes, and are pretty much hitching their wagon to him being the real deal, I think it would take ALOT of the drama out of draft day (which i'm somewhat ok with) and maybe would allow us to trade down with someone who wants RG3 knowing they don't have to jump us... Kevin Kolb - I've seen enough throws off the back foot in the passed few years (DA and Delhomme combined) I have no interest in Kolb... Jason Campbell - I was talking to Hindsight the other day, and it said "Ya know, Cambpell didn't play too bad this year" I agreed, which would of been awesome to have him, this year, next year? I'm not that interested for some reason... Donovon McNabb - Ew. No. (Editor's Note: "Ew. No." was originally my reaction to Kevin Kolb's name on this list, then I read DMs and felt even more Ew-y..) Kyle Orton - I wanted to draft him, as I felt his hip injury derailed a Heisman Calibur season. I thought Lovie was dumb for benching him for Rex "Grossman is my quarterback" not that I think he would of beat Indy anyways... But while he's a solid NFL QB, i'd rather stick with Colt than bring in someone old that has to learn the system... Drew Brees - ...What? Don't you think the idea of coming and saving ANOTHER franchise from mediocraty would be a good sell? I mean he's gatta be getting bored of winning in NO by now...right? 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Do you guys really think that if Colt was in this year's QB class he would have been ranked 3rd?
No, I don't. But I also think that blowing a 2nd or 3rd round pick on another also-ran QB is not going to improve our team as much as taking a CB or OLB or OT that can play. To me, if you don't think the guy is legit, you don't take him. If the cost to take him is to prevent you from giving him a decent shot to succeed by improving the team around him, you pass.
I agree with that fully. IMO you take QB's in round 1 or you start fishing for one come round 5 or 6. Rounds 2-3-4 need to be used to grab solid players who can possibly spot start from the beginning or at minimum make solid contributions on special teams other than maybe hold on snaps like a QB could.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Do you guys really think that if Colt was in this year's QB class he would have been ranked 3rd?
No, I don't. But I also think that blowing a 2nd or 3rd round pick on another also-ran QB is not going to improve our team as much as taking a CB or OLB or OT that can play. To me, if you don't think the guy is legit, you don't take him. If the cost to take him is to prevent you from giving him a decent shot to succeed by improving the team around him, you pass.
I agree with that fully. IMO you take QB's in round 1 or you start fishing for one come round 5 or 6. Rounds 2-3-4 need to be used to grab solid players who can possibly spot start from the beginning or at minimum make solid contributions on special teams other than maybe hold on snaps like a QB could.
So....we all agree here and are basically saying it was a mistake to take Colt in the 3rd 2 years ago and waste last season on him....you know, exactly what I wrote days after that draft and was lambasted around here for...that was my fear then, that we would waste another season or 2 "to see IF, IF, IF"...same mistake we did with DA, Frye, Quinn and now Colt...meanwhile a decade has passed and we still have no QB because our FO (and we as fans too, make no mistake about it....it carries weight when the mob is in love with Quinn, localboy Frye or Hobbit McCoy) has been too cheap to pay the price for a real QB prospect and STILL has wasted useful resources (high 3rd rounders) trying to fix the biggest problem on this team since rebirth...only exception to that "rule" for me is Weeden this draft because of his age thing....he has 1st round tape though, that's why I think it's value to gamble a 2nd or 3rd rounder on him....most other mid rounders are project QBs that are considered to have better %chances of succeeding but they're as much projects as late rounders and they seem to bust more than those late rounders because of the expectation level and being rushed onto the field
I hope this FO has the onions to make the "unpopular" move to fix the problem and doesn't try to appease the clueless homer mob just to keep their jobs 1 year longer...how goes the saying? "If you listen to your fans, you'll be sitting right next to them soon"
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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In fairness, had we done what you said we'd have our franchise QB Blaine Gabbert right now as well. We wouldn't have Taylor or Little and we wouldn't have pick 22. (On the other hand, we wouldn't have Marecic, either... so there's that.)
I don't care that Weeden is 28 or 29 or whatever. As I said months ago, we haven't had a QB play for this team for 7 years since Sipe, so his age doesn't bother me at all. I just don't think he's that good. He makes some good throws and then he makes some bad throws. I tried to like him but I just don't like him that much. I probably like him the most after the other two guys but the gap b/w them is huge IMO.
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In fairness, had we done what you said we'd have our franchise QB Blaine Gabbert right now as well. We wouldn't have Taylor or Little and we wouldn't have pick 22. (On the other hand, we wouldn't have Marecic, either... so there's that.)
In all fairness pt 2: I said right after the draft that I would have taken the ATL trade too regardless of Gabbert still being on the board...I really liked Gabbert but owning 2 1sts in the Luck-draft PLUS other picks was worth the trade down, regardless on who was left
In all fairness pt3: Had we done what I said before, we would have Roethli on our roster and it'd be a moot point anyway ...We'd also have Barwin at DE, Nicks at WR and MJD at RB along with Thomas and Haden...all guys I mocked in past drafts
Gabbert was last season's Tannehill, as in having all the tools but not having put them all together yet....he should have been on the bench his rookie season but was thrown in day 1, not even mid season. That said he looked much worse than I expected even under those circmunstances...next season will tell more about him though, it's not verdict time yet
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I don't care that Weeden is 28 or 29 or whatever. As I said months ago, we haven't had a QB play for this team for 7 years since Sipe, so his age doesn't bother me at all. I just don't think he's that good. He makes some good throws and then he makes some bad throws. I tried to like him but I just don't like him that much. I probably like him the most after the other two guys but the gap b/w them is huge IMO.
I've cooled on Weeden a bit after his Bowl game and SR Bowl...his pocket awareness under pressure just isn't very good...he doesn't freeze like Colt but he gets into heroic mode and throws it up losing all mechanics....his pocket awareness under pressure thus is a bad mix of Roethli and Colt...and that's not good...he has a better pocket pressure when not pressured than Colt though....he has better feel and doesn't suffer from "phantom pressure" like Colt
That said, I don't pimp Weeden as hard as Roethli and Gabbert but I think he's worth a calculated risk in the 2nd or 3rd...those 3 are very similar style QBs though...they have all the tools necessary to succeed in the NFL...it's about work ethic, brains and coaching (and situation they're put in)
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Andrew Luck - Would draft at #4
Robert Griffin III - Would not draft
Ryan Tannehill - Might draft at #37 but prefer a QB later
Brock Osweiler - Would not draft
Nick Foles - Would draft in 3rd round, Would rather draft at #4
Brandon Weedon - Would draft at #4...but age makes it unlikely
Matt Flynn - Would sign but not for a price he will command. Would NOT sign for 5 mil per year deals...He hasn't shown a thing. At this point he is still Scott Mitchell....in a smaller body and a weaker arm....
Kevin Kolb - Would sign for 2 year deal...He needs to get back into a system that would be more friendly to him...(which ours would be compared to Arizona) But I would only give him a tryout contract so to say....If he doesn't come...Oh well....
Jason Campbell - Would not sign
Donovon McNabb - Would not sign
Kyle Orton - Would sign 5 year deal only QB here I would be willing to risk a longer term contract on.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Draft
Andrew Luck - ( would draft at 4 )
RG III - ( would draft at 4 )
Ryan Tannehill - ( would draft at 37 )
Russell Wilson - ( would draft in 4th round )
FA Signing
Matt Flynn - ( would sign 5 yr deal - 25 mil guaranteed )
Kyle Orton - ( would sign for 2 year deal - 10 mil guaranteed )
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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So, I gave a value to each decision via the pick value chart -- in order to evaluate signed players, I put the minimum (2year $10M) contract to be equivilant to around a 3rd round pick, a 5-year $25M guaranteed to be equivalent to a late 1st (1000 points), and 5 year $60M to be equivalent to around #4 overall (2000 points). This translates to a contract value about twice the value of a pick at that point (which seems reasonable).
Anyway, the average values from everybody (33 responses) is:
1.) Andrew Luck - 2797 points, which is about the value of trading #4, #22 and our 3rd round pick. The biggest fans are Django, OldColdDawg, KingCob, 214dawg, who would trade at least both firsts, a second, and our first next year, plus maybe more. Everybody would take him at #4 if he were still available.
2.) Robert Griffin III - 1486 points, which is around the value of the #6 overall pick, so maybe a slight trade down with washington would make most people happy. The majority of people (20/34) would be happy to take him at #4. The biggest fans are Django, Ytown and Spectra, who would use #4 + #22 to trade up. The biggest haters is Pete314, who would not select him period.
3.) Ryan Tannehill - 672 points, which is right in between the 22 and 37 picks. Only 13/34 would be willing to take him at #22 however. The biggest fan is Mourgrym, the biggest hater is HotBYoungTurk (who would taken any QB besides the first two).
4.) Matt Flynn - 530 points - Which was roughly a 5 year $25M guaranteed contract. Harder to evaluate what this means than for draft picks. Anyway, the biggest fans are OldColdDawg and CapCity. Many wouldn't target him regardless.
5.) Kevin Kolb - 190 points - Big falloff here. Biggest fans are Paco, Heldawg and no_logo_required. Many haters.
6.) Brandon Weedon - 123 points. Biggest fans are OldColdDawg and Heldawg.
7.) Campbell
8.) Osweiler
9.) Foles
10.) Orton
11.) McNabb
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 02/18/12 05:03 PM.
~Lyuokdea
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Good work. Thanks for the follow through.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Good work. Thanks for the follow through.
That's why I labeled him the DTers quant
Thanks x 2
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Andrew Luck - (Would draft at #4)
Robert Griffin III - (Would not draft)
Ryan Tannehill - (Would draft at #37)
Brock Osweiler - (Would not draft in 3rd round)
Nick Foles - (Would not draft in 3rd round)
Brandon Weedon - (Would draft at #37)
Matt Flynn - (Would sign for 2 year deal ~10 million guaranteed)
Kevin Kolb - (Would sign for 2 year deal ~10 million guaranteed)
Jason Campbell - (Would not sign)
Donovon McNabb - (Would not sign)
Kyle Orton - (Would not sign)
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) The "Where do you stand on QBs"
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