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Yup,,, so what... you don't like wallace either
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Yup,,, so what... you don't like wallace either
That's not the point though. You were playing "gotcha", only you didn't. You were 100% wrong. Lord knows that you'll never, ever admit it though. You'll spin and reinterpret the past to try and make yourself look like you know what you're talking about. (see your reply that I replied to)
Oh, and I like Wallace just fine as a backup. I was one of the people who came to his defense when people wanted him run out of town on a rail when he said that he didn't volunteer stuff to help McCoy without him asking. If you remember, people went nuts over that. I can't remember .... did you? I'm not going to go look it up, I'll take your word either way.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Put me in the looking down field group. I didn't see him look right at all.
So he can't look to his right side downfield? My point was, is and remains that he only did 1 read (middle or right, sideline or downfield..who cares? It's about being only 1 read) and then took his eyes off and that he over-panicked in the pocket, leaving a 5 OL vs 4 rusher situation to get himself killed in the open field where 7 defenders were waiting for him...All he needed to do was 1 or 2 steps to his left with his eyes still downfield and he would have another 3-4 seconds for 2nd, 3rd read etc...that's what I see good QBs doing every gameday...not run around like he's being chased by 4 defenders...have you ever seen McCoy sidestep cool in the pocket to buy time like Roethli, E.Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Freeman and many others do? I haven't...he goes into tuck mode WAY to early...and it wasn't news when we picked him
That was the wording of 1 of his better profiles:
"Reading Defenses: Intelligent enough to understand what the defense is giving him and take advantage of it. Patient enough to let deep routes develop. Usually throws to first read because he feels where defense is weak. He will take off if first option isn't available instead of going through progressions."
That "patient enough" sounds like a backhanded compliment now, doesn't it? It's all there...he was an undersized, 1-read'n'tuck shotgun QB out of College and that was probably the reason he fell all the way to the 3rd in the worst QB class in recent memory...he is what he is..and in year 2 in his 20th start in the NFL he still did the same..only that the NFL is faster and more violent and that's why he ended the 2nd consecutive season on IR
To get the thread back to topic:
RG has the same size and mobility BUT he stays longer in the pocket than Colt and has much, much better awareness..it's one of his strengths...he moves very well IN the pocket while keeping his eyes downfield...it's a big reason why I want him...pocket awareness is hard to learn..it's feel/timing and toughness (that's why I always disputed that Colt is particularly "tough")...and RG goes more through progressions..it's still slow for the NFL level, I know but at least he does it...Colt had to learn to do them AND to do them faster....he didn't even learn step 1 and was still visibly overwhelmed by the pace of the game...I expect RG to adapt much faster to the speed because he has less to learn....there's a reason he will go top 5 and McCoy didn't and it's not that teams need a QB more now than then
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You had a defender coming free in front of him, you had a defender coming free behind him, just stepping to his left for a few seconds would not make the receivers any more open than they already weren't. This isn't West Texas U playing D out there it's Pitt. Colt took the right path, there was an opening to his left. Of course it's Pitt so it closed quickly but he got the ball off and Hardesty is close to getting a 1st on the play.
RG3 could not have made that play any different and all your weak hyperbole about how well he moves in the pocket against weak college D's vs. a D like Pitts and receivers like ours was a waste of time to even type. If you want to think RG3 has IT and a box of chocolates, more power to you. I don't and your spouting opinion as facts isn't going to change either of our minds.
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12. The teams using it the most were Detroit (80.5 percent), Buffalo (75.1 percent) and New England (74 percent). The three lowest were Chicago (21.8 percent), Houston (33.9 percent) and Oakland (38.1 percent).
Detroit and NE both made the playoffs. Buffalo gave up the fewest sacks in the NFL this season (23.)
Chicago, Houston, and Oakland's QBs all ended the season on IR.
I'm just sayin'.
Great point....Shurmer can mumble all he wants about being under center gives you more options. We don't use those options, so just line up in the gun and give your QB a better view of things.
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Well, RG will be a top 5 pick and has profiles full of how good he moves in the pocket...Colt even took off vs those "weak College" Ds....pocket awareness has nothing to do with who you play, your eyes eitehr stay downfield or they don't...a 300p DL is a 300p DL and you either stay in the pocket or leave....Colt, by all accounts, was a 1-read'n'run QB (and still is) and RG3 is not...that's 1 of many reasons he will be drafted much earlier
That's the part many of you don't get..RG just isn't "only" more talented than Colt...he's more advanced too. He has a much higher ceiling AND is more day 1 reayd than Colt was
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My point was, is and remains that he only did 1 read (middle or right, sideline or downfield..who cares? It's about being only 1 read) and then took his eyes off and that he over-panicked in the pocket,
DJ...so you believe McCoy only read one receiver...you are most likely wrong.
...as McCoy is dropping back, before he even sets up, he can see his tight end #81 Alex Smith coming over the middle, with two Steeler LBs and the SS just behind him...that was likely the first read on this play.
...WR Little and TE Moore are running pass routes that appear to be down the seam, Little on the left, Moore on the right...that would reads 2 and 3.
...if you watch McCoy's head just before the 5:56 mark...his focus comes off the downfield and he begins to turn his head to the left, toward the left flat where Hardesty has flared .
...at the 5:56 mark, as McCoy is turning his head to find Hardesty, he can see Keisel 3 yds away with an open path to the QB. McCoy moves to his left avoiding Keisel and is looking at Hardesty.
There is a high probability that McCoy read the short curl route by his left TE , the WR and other TE who are both down field but out of our view and finally the RB in the flat...that would be at least 3 reads on this play and maybe 4 ...if he reads both the WR left seam route and the TE right seam route as he is looking down field.
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J/C
With all these frame by frame accounts, I feel like I'm watching a documentary of JFK getting shot.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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Great point....Shurmer can mumble all he wants about being under center gives you more options. We don't use those options, so just line up in the gun and give your QB a better view of things.
Shotgun offense gives the QB a better view? First I ever heard of that.
Hey why don't we just change our offense. </sarcasm>
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J/C
With all these frame by frame accounts, I feel like I'm watching a documentary of JFK getting shot.
cb...to the average fan, they might watch this play one time and make a conclusion based on their one look.
But there is so much more going on, especially in the QBs mind. When coaches review plays, they go frame by frame to determine where a play may have broken down and to determine what they must do to correct the problem so this play can be successful the next time it is run.
Browns fans do not know what McCoy was supposed to be reading and what read was made first, second, third, etc. I do know that McCoy had more than one read on the play though. He had 5 potential receivers on this play so he likely was able to read at least 3 of his options. Again I point out, we can't see downfield so it's difficult to know what McCoy was seeing down field.
The big problem on this play...the pocket breaks down so quickly, forcing the QB to run in an effort to buy time. McCoy was able to make something out of this play as it went for approx 5 yds, but he paid a terrible price.
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j/c
The gist of every one of these QB arguments boils down to the 5-6 guys that absolutely wouldn't give Colt credit if he took this team to the SB versus the 5-6 guys that think he'll be just fine if we fix other things.
Who is right? We may never know for sure. But one thing I do know for sure is this.....If those 10-12 guys that are constantly arguing about our QB were as smart as they think they are they'd be working in the NFL. Not racking up 10,000 posts on a message board.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Colt is to short, RG3 is simply vertically challenged.
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j/c
The gist of every one of these QB arguments boils down to the 5-6 guys that absolutely wouldn't give Colt credit if he took this team to the SB versus the 5-6 guys that think he'll be just fine if we fix other things.
Who is right? We may never know for sure. But one thing I do know for sure is this.....If those 10-12 guys that are constantly arguing about our QB were as smart as they think they are they'd be working in the NFL. Not racking up 10,000 posts on a message board.
This ain't Rocket Science man...Never has been...And never will be...
Go Browns!!!
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Colt is to short, RG3 is simply vertically challenged.
Explain yourself, Lucy...
Vertically challenged???...Height wise???...Maybe...Deep ball wise???...Not a chance...
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One of the big criticisms of Colt was that he was short and struggled seeing over the line to make his reads as he was dropping back. Many of those same critics now believe RG3 is fine height wise because well he aint Colt. Doesn't matter if Colt is probably taller than than RG3.
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j/c
The gist of every one of these QB arguments boils down to the 5-6 guys that absolutely wouldn't give Colt credit if he took this team to the SB versus the 5-6 guys that think he'll be just fine if we fix other things.
Who is right? We may never know for sure. But one thing I do know for sure is this.....If those 10-12 guys that are constantly arguing about our QB were as smart as they think they are they'd be working in the NFL. Not racking up 10,000 posts on a message board.
I agree. I try to be ambiguous when it relates to our offense and how it pertains to either Colt McCoy or Robert Griffen or any other QB. There seems to be a double standard for Griffen and not for McCoy.
Who ever we decide on, they will and should have to learn the offense as it is intended to be run. To me that's pretty cut and dry. You don't change your offense to suit the QB. Eventually it's bound to limit your options and create problems.
Solution ... Draft QB's that fit your BPA.
In time, Tebow will have to adhere to what offense they want to run in Denver and so too will Newton in Carolina imo.
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The gist of every one of these QB arguments boils down to the 5-6 guys that absolutely wouldn't give Colt credit if he took this team to the SB versus the 5-6 guys that think he'll be just fine if we fix other things.
craz...yep, that is pretty much how the debate breaks down.
I get lumped in as a McCoy supporter when actually, I'm a supporter of fixing the other things that are wrong with the offense so we can give whomever is playing QB a fair chance to succeed and a fair assessment.
I'm confident, that unless the Browns improve the play of their offensive line, it won't matter if RGII or Andrew Luck..OR...if Matt Flynn or McCoy is at QB in 2012...the passing game will be no better than average.
If the Browns improve the play of their offensive line, any of the 4 QBs I named above could be more productive than the 2011 passing game was.
Bottom line, the entire offense needs to improve, not just one position.
GM strong...
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This ain't Rocket Science man...Never has been...And never will be...
Yet many on here seem to think that it is. Why do you think guys like Vers and eotab don't post here any more? Not because people on here suddenly got dumb. Because people stopped bowing down to there "knowledge" and started arguing things with them.
I just get a little tired of the board geniuses beating some of this stuff to death.
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Colt is to short, RG3 is simply vertically challenged.
I want us to draft RGIII. I don't think he's too short. I don't think Colt is too short, either. He's got deficiencies outside being too short. For the record, Colt is my third option for QB going forward after Luck and Griffin.
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To be totally honest I think you're one of the (few) guys that know what they're talking about a good majority of the time. And you're right when you say people wanna dump Colt because of his height (among other things) when RG3 is probably no more than 1/2 inch taller, if that. But I have a problem when you dissect other QBs when I know you pop a woody as soon as somebody spots you the "T" and the "A" in Tannehill......  Just sayin'....... 
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J/C, but a general question to all. Why wouldn't Shurmur, or any coach, revise his "system" to accentuate his QB's abilities and talents, whether that QB is McCoy or Griffin? Why stay with the square peg / round hole approach?
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Colt's height was 1 of his many problems and he had/has no superior trait to overcome that or any of the many shortcomings he has
RG otoh has pocket awareness, arm strength and playmaking ability going for him to make up for it...he has actual strengths at NFL level, something Colt simply has not
That said, I never defended RG's height...always stressing his actual height is important
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J/C, but a general question to all. Why wouldn't Shurmur, or any coach, revise his "system" to accentuate his QB's abilities and talents, whether that QB is McCoy or Griffin? Why stay with the square peg / round hole approach?
What's the square peg round hole???
Why would we change anything???
The best comparison of Griffin I see out there is Steve Young...One of the best ever...
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J/C, but a general question to all. Why wouldn't Shurmur, or any coach, revise his "system" to accentuate his QB's abilities and talents, whether that QB is McCoy or Griffin? Why stay with the square peg / round hole approach?
I don't think Colt is a square peg in this offense. He simply needs to be finish sanded, by improving his game.
If we Draft Griffen, then he will have to learn the offense too. Naturally they will differ in their respective strengths and you can still use those strengths to your advantage within the scope of our offense. Is there projection involved? Yes, but you are going to have to project him in any offensive plan, unless we bring back the run and gun and I don't see that as a realistic option, just as I don't see adapting your offense to suit the QB. There are 10+ other players who you brought in that you liked in the offense we want to run. Do we change some of them too? No I don't believe that is the right way to build the 'team'.
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J/C, but a general question to all. Why wouldn't Shurmur, or any coach, revise his "system" to accentuate his QB's abilities and talents, whether that QB is McCoy or Griffin? Why stay with the square peg / round hole approach?
it depends on how close that square peg is to fitting in the round hole 
seriously though, there is a methodology to teaching QBs that the WCO guys believe in and have put guys through in the past. i don't think it will change much other than to pick pieces of the WCO from similar QBs in the past or add a few new wrinkles.
overall, if you let a guy like Colt just run the Texas-spread-offense, then maybe we have a marginally better year on offense last year . But, our coaches (and other coaches) obviously don't think that will work long-term in the NFL and Colt would still have the full learning curve to figure out on the WCO.
you take a couple steps back to make a few leaps forward sometimes. if he cannot make those leaps, then you go find another QB.
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cb...to the average fan, they might watch this play one time and make a conclusion based on their one look.
But there is so much more going on, especially in the QBs mind. When coaches review plays, they go frame by frame to determine where a play may have broken down and to determine what they must do to correct the problem so this play can be successful the next time it is run.
Browns fans do not know what McCoy was supposed to be reading and what read was made first, second, third, etc. I do know that McCoy had more than one read on the play though. He had 5 potential receivers on this play so he likely was able to read at least 3 of his options. Again I point out, we can't see downfield so it's difficult to know what McCoy was seeing down field.
The big problem on this play...the pocket breaks down so quickly, forcing the QB to run in an effort to buy time. McCoy was able to make something out of this play as it went for approx 5 yds, but he paid a terrible price.
Mac,
I get all that, it just struck me funny as I was reading it. I was waiting any second for someone to type "At frame 25, you can see the receiver slump forward in front of a shadow on the grassy hash mark."
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I really try to point out a prospects strengths and weaknesses. I have Tannehill rated higher because because of his tremendous upside, big arm, size, mobility, poise in the pocket, accuracy in the short to mid level and terrific footwork. He throws those out routes and curls and it makes my chin drop. He can run but is looking for receivers while he scrambles, he is a throw first QB. He knows this offense and has been running it or running in it as a receiver for his entire career. I really see a very intelligent prospect tailor made for this offense.
I dont like Tannehill because of his inexperience, he has inconsistent mechanics and when he dips his shoulder the ball tends to sail on him. He needs to improve in his defensive reads and will occasionally try to throw the ball through the defender. His deep ball improved as well but is not where it should be. He has to many balls batted down because he still reads with his head moving instead of moving his eyes. Anticipation is good in the short area but mid to deep it isn't there.
When it comes to RG3, I see a terrific arm, nimble feet, elusiveness and pocket awareness. He is fearless and will take the big hit to deliver the ball. He can escape pressure and never takes his eyes away from downfield. He throws a great deepball with tremendous accuracy, only Barkley was more accurate this year and RG3 has much better velocity with not nearly as much arc. He is smart and he runs to throw. If we were running Arians offense, Chud's offense or even Daboll's offense RG3 would be my top target. His greatest plus is that he is fun to watch and has that wow factor.
Now his negatives are that he just takes to many hits for being undersized. His feet often are going east and west when he throws and it really hurts his timing and accuracy in the short to mid game. His mechanics are all over the place and it often looks as if he is throwing darts. He is a small QB from a spread offense. The Browns run the gun less than virtually every other team in the NFL and I just do not see this kid as a great fit.
I have Tannehill rated higher for this offense than RG3 but both are terrific young QBs. I think RG3 has a higher bust potential in this scheme. I also think Tannehill has a higher bust rate in a more vertical stretch or shotgun oriented scheme. He worked better from under center than the gun.
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That's a fair ambiguous assessment Mourgrym 
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Great point....Shurmer can mumble all he wants about being under center gives you more options. We don't use those options, so just line up in the gun and give your QB a better view of things.
Shotgun offense gives the QB a better view? First I ever heard of that.
Hey why don't we just change our offense. </sarcasm>
Personally I think it does, but in the end, it probably doesn't make any difference as long as the eyes looking at the D know what they are looking for.
To me it seems the further back you are, the wider the vision. Unless the QB has vision problems, I don't think being closer adds anything.
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Great point....Shurmer can mumble all he wants about being under center gives you more options. We don't use those options, so just line up in the gun and give your QB a better view of things.
Shotgun offense gives the QB a better view? First I ever heard of that.
Hey why don't we just change our offense. </sarcasm>
Personally I think it does, but in the end, it probably doesn't make any difference as long as the eyes looking at the D know what they are looking for.
To me it seems the further back you are, the wider the vision. Unless the QB has vision problems, I don't think being closer adds anything.
I think that is a natural assumption, but actually it doesn't work like that in practice. Not only does a QB have to take his eye's off of the defense at the snap of the ball and at the most critical moment I think in the execution of the play, but also a QB's view can be somewhat obstructed by his OL, because now he has to peer threw those big wide bodies.
Whereas if he is under center, then he is right up front and center where the action (the trenches) takes place and this can help a QB with getting them in the correct protection audible as well.
I don't mind the shotgun formation and I think it has it's place in any offensive attack, but it does limit your options as an offense. It's a moot point on 3rd and long or in a hail merry situation.
Case in point;
There are limited running plays as opposed to under center and one of my favorite plays ... The 'play action pass' is all but eliminated for all intensive purposes. The element of surprise is a major prerequisite to any good battle plan.
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Great post. Always read Pluto. May not agree, but the man has pigskin sense. Part of the argument would be, go with the strengths of the players. Someone wildly successful will be most comfortable in one or the other from college. Good athletic ability will let the be adequate and more polished. Our QB under center with the pressure they endured, any advantage goes and they are closer to a sack and less room to run for time. Depends on which you prefer as a coach; but to be blind to the reality of sacks, injuries, and concussions for theoretical advantages on paper, well, it at least lacks wisdom IMO. Just win somehow. 
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The gist of every one of these QB arguments boils down to the 5-6 guys that absolutely wouldn't give Colt credit if he took this team to the SB versus the 5-6 guys that think he'll be just fine if we fix other things.
craz...yep, that is pretty much how the debate breaks down.
I get lumped in as a McCoy supporter when actually, I'm a supporter of fixing the other things that are wrong with the offense so we can give whomever is playing QB a fair chance to succeed and a fair assessment.
I'm confident, that unless the Browns improve the play of their offensive line, it won't matter if RGII or Andrew Luck..OR...if Matt Flynn or McCoy is at QB in 2012...the passing game will be no better than average.
If the Browns improve the play of their offensive line, any of the 4 QBs I named above could be more productive than the 2011 passing game was.
Bottom line, the entire offense needs to improve, not just one position.
And that says nothing about the receivers catching the ball or the playcalling, which was atrocious, in my opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,373
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,373 |
I understand the running game changes.
And I will say your point on taking your eyes off the field at the snap is a good one. I may have to rethink my position.
See, I do have a open mind.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
I understand the running game changes.
And I will say your point on taking your eyes off the field at the snap is a good one. I may have to rethink my position.
See, I do have a open mind.
I never doubted that for a moment Peen.
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