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As with anything that is said this time of year, take this with a grain of salt. (I'm hoping to make it the whole thread without someone saying a phrase that rhymes with choke bean.) Quote:
The Browns may be in the market for an upgrade at quarterback this year and will surely keep a close eye on Robert Griffin III beginning this week at the Scouting Combine. But publicly, they’re giving incumbent starter Colt McCoy a vote of confidence.
Browns coach Pat Shurmur said today that he still thinks Cleveland will win games with McCoy starting at quarterback.
“I think he can be very good if he plays at a high level like I think he can and makes the improvements he can to help us put the ball in the end zone win football games” Shurmur said, via the News-Herald. “I’m expecting that he will. The thing that’s encouraging to me is he a guy you know is going to work at it.”
Two years and 21 starts into his NFL career, the Browns haven’t seen enough of the “very good” McCoy. With career stats of 20 touchdowns, 20 interceptions and a 74.5 passer rating, McCoy has a lot of work to do. Shurmur acknowledged that as well.
“I think it’s fair to say [McCoy] has some things he has to improve on,” Shurmur said. “They’re quantifiable, whether it’s footwork, a better feel for the progressions, a better feel for the targets he’s throwing to. I think all that is refined when you have an offseason [program] to help.”
The question is whether McCoy’s offseason work will be as the presumed starter, or as the guy who’s just holding onto the job until a rookie newcomer is up to speed.
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all seems kosher.
I'm sure that we would be fine with Colt starting. With time in the offense, the timing throws that we so dearly struggled with will become more of a strength because of familiarity with the system and with each other. Even if we add rookies or FAs he will be given from March or April to get it down with them...as opposed to from August til September...He will have plenty of time to get it down.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Coke machine, or smoke screen, or poke inbetween, idk 
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Doesn't sound like a smokescreen to me.
Sounds to me like he is saying a bit of what has already been said, but also sending Colt a message: "You need to be working your butt off this offseason and get up to speed and where you need to be". I think that they are legitimately going to give him the chance to prove/disprove himself.
Heck... if we can trade away high picks to move up this year, we can surely do it next year, too..... give him an offseason and some tools to work with and give him a shot. If nothing else, if we end up grabbing a rookie QB next year, then he comes into an offense where *everybody* else is already established and you now know that Colt would just be a placeholder. And if he works out and the lights come on and he plays the way we need him to... then we're ahead of the curve for once in the last 13 years. It's win-win.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Hate ta disagree,but,no it isn't.
If they roll with McCoy this year and he flounders,then it would again be time for a new FO.If it takes them 3 years to determine that a player is or isnot any good,then they don't really deserve the jobs they have,
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
Two years and 21 starts into his NFL career, the Browns haven’t seen enough of the “very good” McCoy. With career stats of 20 touchdowns, 20 interceptions and a 74.5 passer rating, McCoy has a lot of work to do. Shurmur acknowledged that as well.
Drew Brees through 2 seasons in San Diego: 17 Games 3505 yards 18 TDs and 16 Ints.
Matt Hasselbeck through 2 seasons in Green Bay 32 games (according to espn - must have been the extra point holder?) 145 yards - 2 tds 0 ints
Jason Campbell through 2 seasons in Washington - 20 games 3,997 yards 22 TDs 17 Ints.
Mark Sanchez through 2 seasons with the Jets - 31 Games 5735 yards - 29 TDs 33 Ints
Ben Roethlisberger through 2 seasons with the Steelers - 26 Games - 5006 yards - 34 TDs 20 Ints
Tony Romo through 2 seasons in dallas - 32 games - 2903 yards - 19 TDs 13 Ints
.... I'm not so much trying to make a point as I am trying to say it's not where Colt STARTS his career but rather what can he (and an offensive coordinator and some weapons) do to get better?
I think IF we gave Colt one more year ... which could be a viable option if we miss out or don't like Flynn and then decide it's too much to trade up for Griffin ... then I think we would see upgrades all else the same.
More time in the offense.
More time as an NFL QB.
An Actual offseason with minicamps.
Your leading Receiver isn't a former RB who was suspended for a year and is a rookie who starts the year as a backup.
You don't (hopefully) start your 3rd and 4th string running back before the half way point of the year.
You bring on Childress to have a smoother offense.
Shurmur has less responsibility on the offense and more experience calling plays.
The guards combine for more than 8 games of starting experience going into the start of the season ....
and that's just what went wrong (or was fixed) from the problems from last year.
Imagine adding a TRUE WR (or 2) in the draft with a LEGIT RT. Then bringing in another RB and Guard to compete as 'upgrades.'
I honestly think on paper we could get 2 to 3 more wins just by those additions ... and then if you add in a win (or two) from the pontbriand-bad snap gate and etc. ... we could be a borderline wildcard team. And all that was only using 2 or 3 of our (presumed) 10 to 12 draft picks too. Imagine making a splash in Free Agency too?
I think this is the first draft that I don't have a clear opinion on what I want to do. I would like to get Griffin IF he is what he should be.
But under the correct circumstances I could believe in Colt being an above average QB with pieces around him ala a Matt Hasselbeck. And even if he wasn't the offense would be complete EXCEPT for a QB if we added weapons ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Quote:
then it would again be time for a new FO
Absolutely NOT.
In fact, not even remotely close! 
This FO is on the same page. They are building something.
And where do you get 3 years? The Mangini year is lost and discounted... completely different offense and he was effectively ostracized by the coaches.
He has had ONE season in this offense... with no offseason preceding it. This will be year two, and his FIRST offseason where he will actually have coaches and an offense.
Can the FO? That is absolutely ludicrous.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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There are no do-overs,no mulligans,this will be their 3rd year together.If it takes talent evaluators 3 years to make a determination,then we need new evaluators.
Now I feel I must make this disclaimer before certain thin skinned posters get into an uproar,I'm not calling for a new FO,I'm not saying Mccoy needs replaced.
I'm simply saying it shouldn't take 3 years to make talent evaluations.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Only the second year with Shurmur.
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I'm talking talent evaluators.Holmy,Heckert 3 years.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Yeah, you were calling for that... it's right there in the above post. You said it'd be time for a new FO if they went with him and he floundered... which means that if they "fail" on evaluating this one player out of the 53 we will carry on opening day, you think we should blow up the whole team - because that is what getting a new FO means.
Aside from all that hoopla, any evaluation they may have done of Colt in his rookie season has minimal value, at best, right now. It lets them know what he can handle under pressure and a few other things, but it tells them absolutely nothing about him in the offense we now run - and that is the thing that matters most. The reset button got hit when Mangini was tossed out and Shurmur brought in. Everything was changed, all prior evals effectively mooted.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Guess Claiborne will be a Brown then...
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And would that be all that bad?
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Quote:
The reset button got hit when Mangini was tossed out and Shurmur brought in.
Not on Holmgren it didn't. Nothing is going to change the fact that he wasted a year by retaining Mangini and bringing in Delhomme, and nothing short of some real tangible success in the next two seasons is going to make me willing to overlook that fact.
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Quote:
Quote:
The reset button got hit when Mangini was tossed out and Shurmur brought in.
Not on Holmgren it didn't. Nothing is going to change the fact that he wasted a year by retaining Mangini and bringing in Delhomme, and nothing short of some real tangible success in the next two seasons is going to make me willing to overlook that fact.
I think it depends greatly on what happens this off-season, if we go out and get a guy like Flynn, then we SHOULD see a substantial boost in production, right? That's why we got him?
Even if we stick with McCoy regardless of drafting a QB, if bring out the same Mike Lombardi Predicted offense next year, what really do they expect to happen?
Unless we completely bomb out and self destruct, I doubt anybody is leaving after this year, but SOME progress needs to be shown...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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You think what depends on this offseason? Like I said, I'm not going to give Mike a pass for aborting year one of his watch here until this team starts to be productive.
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If we go into next season with RG3 as the starter, and the offense struggles...
I think that's different than going into next season with Colt or Flynn and struggling...
I'm not saying we have to make the playoffs this coming year, but being consistantly competitive (which doesn't mean losing games by 7-10 points because we scored a TD with 30 seconds to go..) and I dunno, how about winning a division game or two? Would be nice..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Playoffs this year? Not necessarily. .500? Probably. Scoring 20+ points in more than two games? Definitely. Scoring 10 or fewer points in less than five games? Scoring more than 30 occasionally? Those would be nice. And yeah, I'll take a division win or two.
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Holmgrens 3rd year. I expect at least .500 ball. My expectation is at minimum 8 - 8. And like Adam P says Holmgren gets no pass on that first year. He DID have the option to boot Mangini and have his own guy. He chose what he chose.
SaintDawg™
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Quote:
Guess Claiborne will be a Brown then...
That wouldn't be a bad thing. Claiborne is one of three players with an 8.5 grade(Richardson and DeCastro being the others) and Luck is the only one with a 9. If we stay at 4 and go with highest rated talent, Claiborne should be available.
If they go with McCoy and plan on him giving him next year to keep continuity and see if he can take the next step and show them what they want to see, that wouldn't be a bad thing. As far as Wins and losses, I don't see a rookie coming in and learning the league and offense and do any better. I agree you bring in some competition to push him and maybe a higher Character guy instead of Wallace that is team first. Maybe that will come in the form of a guy like Chad Henne, He's young and has been a starter. Maybe they draft a guy like Weedon or Cousins or even further down to bring along. In time we will know what they are thinking.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Quote:
Like I said, I'm not going to give Mike a pass for aborting year one of his watch here until this team starts to be productive.
Quote:
Playoffs this year? Not necessarily. .500? Probably. Scoring 20+ points in more than two games? Definitely. Scoring 10 or fewer points in less than five games? Scoring more than 30 occasionally? Those would be nice. And yeah, I'll take a division win or two.
I just love it when some fans deliver their "ultimatums"...
...the Browns must have X number of wins next season...or Holmgren must not make any mistake in his judgement of player personnel...
To those fans, I say OR WHAT?...just what are you gonna do if the Browns do not deliver on your demands?
...you can't fire Holmgren...I guess you could become a fan of another team, but short of that, fans have absolutely no power over the decisions our front office makes.
I guess some fans live in some kind of fantasy world believing they have these extra-ordinary powers to hire and fire the Browns management or make changes in player personnel...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Dag nabit ... Thats my problem ( Mine ) .. I am not impressed with Holmgren , don't like Shurmur and have my fingers crossed with Heckert ! I sure want Heckert to hit the ball out of the park this draft & FA...
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As with anything that is said this time of year, take this with a grain of salt.
Although Shurmur may have been sincere in everything he said, at this pre-draft time of the year I suspect everything anyone says from any team is aimed at keeping others guessing regarding their intentions for the draft.
That's not to say he's masking our intentions to take a QB high. We may or we may not. But we have the #4 pick which is highly valuable in any number of ways.
I tend to take with a grain of salt anything said this time of year.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
If it takes talent evaluators 3 years to make a determination,then we need new evaluators.
Now I feel I must make this disclaimer before certain thin skinned posters get into an uproar,I'm not calling for a new FO,I'm not saying Mccoy needs replaced.
I'm simply saying it shouldn't take 3 years to make talent evaluations.
What about the ones that they appear to have gotten right? corner back, safety, DT, DE, OG, C, etc?
And for the record, this is hedging.. nothing more and nothing less. I'm sure it Shurmur feels it is largely true but they are going to evaluate RGIII, evaluate Tannehill, look at Flynn.. but there is a chance that RGIII is gone and the asking price to move up is too steep, that Tannehill is gone by 22, that Flynn's price is too high.. or there is the possibility that after evaluations they just aren't thrilled with any of them.. and McCoy is the starter.. so do you want a bunch of off-season press of you bashing the guy then naming him the starter?
yebat' Putin
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I guess I did.
That's kinda the way the NFL works.Coaches and GMs get "married" to their QB.If after 3 years the hand chosen player isn't working out,changes get made.
I believe Heckert knows what he's doing.The other guys?who really knows.Together,they must get that QB position right,however,whoever.Without one,we will forever flounder in the sea of mediocrity.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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mac...no, I don't live in a fantasy world. I don't think I have the power to hire or fire anyone on the Browns...
mac...I'm also sure that I'm not the only season-ticket holding fan who feels the way I do. Do you think that season ticket holders are going to keep renewing their tickets if our front office and coaching staff continue bumbling their way through 4-12 and 5-11 seasons, mac? Do you think Randy Lerner is going to be pleased with a guy he's giving $10 million a year to if he can't put up a .500 season three years into his tenure?
Do you think it's unreasonable to expect 8 wins from a team headed by a guy who says that winning is the bottom line, that 5-win seasons are unacceptable, and that the team is in "win-now" mode, mac? Or do you think that maybe big Mike was just blowing smoke and telling the fans what they wanted to hear?
I've been at every home game for I don't know how many years now, and I've never seen it as deserted as it was during most games this season. The franchise is on the brink of losing a the fan base in a big way, and for many fans, myself included, it's getting very close to put-up-or-shut-up time for Mike and the rest of the front office.
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Speaking as a fellow season ticket holder.. thats exactly right. I don't have those expectations the first two seasons. At the end of the third season I have a different set of expectations. That expectation is at minimum .500 ball. As an edit.. I am preparing to pay the Clevaland Browns $554.00 in the next week or so. Thats what I am being invoiced for my season tickets. I am sorta glad that it's not more but thats only because the product stinks. The Lerner family only raises the prices when we have a winning season. It's been a little while since they have raised the prices. And that really, really sucks. 
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Mike Holmgren did say it takes a minimum of 2 years - 32 games - to properly evaluate a QB. McCoy has 21 starts, and only 13 in this system. So its just possible Shurmur isn't blowing smoke.
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Hypothetically... you can expect .500 all you want.
Look at next seasons schedule... If you honestly expect .500 I don't know what to tell you.
We are going to be between 3-6 wins next season. Predictions aren't that difficult to make. Last season I said 5 wins, season before that I said 4 wins. Reason behind it? Sub-par talent (especially at QB and WR) and changes in coaching staff.
When you are .500 ... you are basically a playoff team. Barring drastic QB and WR improvement the Browns aren't a playoff team.
I'm very optimistic that Holmgren + Heckert is a combination you stick with for the rest of their careers. Just don't expect magical wins to appear against superior teams until they have time to develop a QB.
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Quote:
“I’m expecting that he will. The thing that’s encouraging to me is he a guy you know is going to work at it.”
I'll translate in Shurmurish: He battles
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“I think it’s fair to say [McCoy] has some things he has to improve on,” Shurmur said. “They’re quantifiable, whether it’s footwork, a better feel for the progressions, a better feel for the targets he’s throwing to. I think all that is refined when you have an offseason [program] to help.”
Wow, nice backhanded compliment Pat "I think he can be fine....he just has to learn everything a QB has to be decent at" lol...really, saying something like that to a QB that has 21 NFL starts is telling imho....that's stuff you hear HC's say about rookie QBs after their 1st start...footwork isnt there, doesn't go through progressions (hello mac) and has no "feel" for his targets, which is a nice way to say he can't throw guys open/needs stationary targets to pull the trigger...I see the same stuff and conclude McCoy is overwhelmed...his HC has to be PC about stuff like that and thus at least give "hope" that he can improve...every NFL talent you can win with if they improve up to their upside and every HC will believe (or make the fans believe) and say so as long as said player is on his team, especially at the top of the depth chart...but that list Shurmur gave you is pretty long....I think he was nice saying McCoy is a "longshot" to improve all those...especially after having started 21 games already
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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He didn't say he doesn't know how to do those things. He said he needs to improve on them. I know how to drive a car, if I want to drive a race car I will have to improve my driving skills.
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Semantics...he obviously has "to improve" because he can't drive at Nascar level...if you can only throw a little better than us schmocks in the backyard that doesn't make you a NFL thrower
A NFL HC always talks about "improvement" with NFL level in mind...that's a given. I didn't say he can't do it when playing football 10 times slower with us in the park or in College or in the UFL...but he obviously can't do that at the highest level...and that's where he plays, right?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
“I think it’s fair to say [McCoy] has some things he has to improve on,” Shurmur said. “They’re quantifiable, whether it’s footwork, a better feel for the progressions, a better feel for the targets he’s throwing to. I think all that is refined when you have an offseason [program] to help.”
The last sentence is telling. Footwork, better feel for progressions, better feel for the targets he's throwing to is refined during an offseason program, One he didn't have last year. No one worked with him his first year and got thrown into the fire, then the Lockout so during the offseason when you work on that stuff with your QB Coach and timing with receivers during OTA's and Spring workouts. Throw in you have a backup that wanted nothing to do with helping him and he had to go and seek out Favre to get a better understanding of the WCO.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Wouldn't you agree that at times, maybe only a few times, Colt McCoy has had the proper footwork, read the right progressions, etc. And if he has done those things before don't you think he can be taught to do them more consistently?
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Wouldn't you agree that at times, maybe only a few times, Colt McCoy has had the proper footwork, read the right progressions, etc. And if he has done those things before don't you think he can be taught to do them more consistently?
He can and he has done those things. If he couldn't we wouldn't be having this discussion and he wouldn't be in the NFL and he wouldn't have 21 career starts under his belt.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Wouldn't you agree that at times, maybe only a few times, Colt McCoy has had the proper footwork, read the right progressions, etc. And if he has done those things before don't you think he can be taught to do them more consistently?
Sure and so have Clausen, Losman, Quinn etc...another given is that you have to do it more consistently and not only when the situation around you is perfect..as for real downfield progressions and throwing to receivers in stride....I have seen well below NFL AVG in those category...he just can't, won't do it often enough to have earned more time "to get better"....are your expectations so low? The Browns should not be the training ground for so-so NFL QBs...and that's what they have been the last 10 years
Hey Frisman Jackson had a 100yd game once, let's give him another year starting to see if he can do it more often...Pashos has dominated his DE at times, hey let's give him 1 more year...see? Strange enough...when this same discussion comes up with the starting QB, the fanbase quickly gets emotional and totally irrational
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Strange enough...when this same discussion comes up with the starting QB, the fanbase quickly gets emotional and totally irrational
Wouldn't you say that QB is a different than any other position?
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Shurmur talks up McCoy
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