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Wrong? How? a WR with 21 starts is as experienced as a QB with 21 starts, same with G or RB (and Lauvao and Hardesty, 2 of Colt's preferred scapegoats, has even less starts)...why would everyone pull the trigger to upgrade on them, but are gun shy when the SAME discussion turns to Colt? If change of system/coaches, weak talent around is a valid excuse for Colt, why sholdn't it for them? That's not generalizing, that's looking at same level players (talent/drafted round, experience, performance) pretty objectively and fair....Lauvao, Hardesty and McCoy should be looked at the SAME way but simply aren't...why's that?
You're basically saying it's "ok" too slightly upgrade a bad RT/RG/RB to AVG RTRG/RB but it's not "ok" with you to upgrade a bad QB with and AVG one?
I agree with "go big or go home" long term...but why not sign a Campbell, who by every possible measurement (talent, stats, experience) is a better QB than McCoy?
Why is it "ok" to upgrade other positions but people around here are like "either big or let's keep our bum"? I don't get it...a better player is a better player, esp. if it's someone like Campbell who won't consider himself a franchise guy (unlike a Flynn) if brought in
My point is: if we can't "go big" (as explained in no logo's scenario), I'd STILL look to upgrade McCoy...why are people willing to "settle" with him?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Wrong? How? a WR with 21 starts is as experienced as a QB with 21 starts, same with G or RB (and Lauvao and Hardesty, 2 of Colt's preferred scapegoats, has even less starts)...why would everyone pull the trigger to upgrade on them, but are gun shy when the SAME discussion turns to Colt? If change of system/coaches, weak talent around is a valid excuse for Colt, why sholdn't it for them? That's not generalizing, that's looking at same level players (talent/drafted round, experience, performance) pretty objectively and fair....Lauvao, Hardesty and McCoy should be looked at the SAME way but simply aren't...why's that?
You're basically saying it's "ok" too slightly upgrade a bad RT/RG/RB to AVG RTRG/RB but it's not "ok" with you to upgrade a bad QB with and AVG one?
I agree with "go big or go home" long term...but why not sign a Campbell, who by every possible measurement (talent, stats, experience) is a better QB than McCoy?
Why is it "ok" to upgrade other positions but people around here are like "either big or let's keep our bum"? I don't get it...a better player is a better player, esp. if it's someone like Campbell who won't consider himself a franchise guy (unlike a Flynn) if brought in
My point is: if we can't "go big" (as explained in no logo's scenario), I'd STILL look to upgrade McCoy...why are people willing to "settle" with him?
Because some of us look at Colt as a race car driver in the indy 500 being forced to compete with a engineless Kia with 4 flat tires. Lets give him a real car to drive and perhaps see what happens? Changing drivers without upgrading the car will yield the same results.
I personally like next years QB class better then this years. If RG3 falls to us and the FO likes him great hes ours if not then keep fixing the car.
I will say this just to be clear Im no colt lover and dont need to pull my head out of anywhere the sun doesnt shine to see the car is broken before looking at only the driver. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Agree.
Better analogy: Judging an Indy 500 driver on his first 50 laps means nothing when the car is underpowered, his crew can't get him out of the pits on time, etc.
But, someone will be along shortly to tell me I'm a Colt lover. Couldn't be further from the truth, but watch, it'll happen.
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No .... just that you make no sense. You say that you have nothing against replacing McCoy if ... say .... RG3 falls to us ....... yet it's not McCoy's fault that we stunk, because the rest of the team stunk ....... but you're not hating on the rest of the team by saying they stunk, like those mean old Colt haters are by saying that he stunk .......... You run in circles..  
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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NOBODY and I MEAN NOBODY is against an upgrade..
MOST of us want to see what we have before we kick it to the curb..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
No .... just that you make no sense.
You say that you have nothing against replacing McCoy if ... say .... RG3 falls to us ....... yet it's not McCoy's fault that we stunk, because the rest of the team stunk ....... but you're not hating on the rest of the team by saying they stunk, like those mean old Colt haters are by saying that he stunk ..........
You run in circles..
Grab a clue and quit acting stupid, okay? I know you have a crush on RG - the latest and greatest.
Here's a bit of reality for you: I have said repeatedly that if RG is there at 4, take him. I'm fine with that. See, I'm NOT a colt lover as you seem to think.
Other things I have said: Our qb position was not good, but not as bad as SOME (you're one of them) would lead us to believe. Our line was in need of some help - not great as some would lead us to believe - but not as terrible as some want to say.
Our receivers were bad.
Our running game was sad. Yes, having our starter out for as long as he was affected that, having a second string running back hurt for the majority of the season hurt.
Bottom line - we can't judge EITHER the qb or the line entirely. Consequently, why trade away so many picks to get a qb that is a MIGHT be when we have so many other holes.
That's really all I'm saying, and ever have said. If RG is there, great. With all the holes we have, if he's not there - why not fill those holes and build this thing called a TEAM?
YOU, sir, are the one that makes no sense. You have RG filled in as all pro already and think that all we need to do is get him and we'll be set.
You hold Cam as the perfect example - he took his team from a bad O to ......what, 10th in offense? (not sure). He took his team from, what, 2 wins to 6?
And that's your reason for trading at least 2 first round picks to get a "might" be?
YOU are the one making no sense.
Here it is: IF the Browns get RG, I will hold him to the same standards you hold Colt. In a different thread (maybe this one) you stated that what Cam did - taking his team (TEAM) to 6 wins from 2 would equate to the Browns getting a similar qb and going from 4 wins to 12. Yes - you said it.
IF we get RG - and we don't win 12 games - will you be on his ass? What if they win 8 games? Will you be on his ass - or will you be saying "well, our running game wasn't there, the line needs help, and we still have no receivers?"
I make perfect sense. You are the one guided by only 1 simple thought: Get a new qb.
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IF we get RG - and we don't win 12 games - will you be on his ass?
Now that right there was funny.. Of course he won't.. he'll say that we need receivers and a running game and a better line and then RG could really be the guy we need.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But if replacing the QB means "nothing", then why be for it at all? If you want to "see what we have", then why be for a new QB at all?
I get all people arguing with me that McCoy just didn't have a chance ..... because everyone around him was so bad ........ and that he'd be fine with a better supporting cast ...... and that I'm just a hater because I don't think that he can or will improve enough to be an effective starting QB in this league .......
But no one is saying that they are a "Colt lover" ....... they don't want it to be misunderstood that they would take a QB if one fell to us ........
But why would they accept that if, by their every argument, it would be meaningless? If the QB we have now is perfectly fine, and the rest of the team around him needs replaced, then why would anyone who truly believes that he fine with replacing the QB under any circumstances? Why not stand up and say that we should stay with McCoy, and fix the rest of the team, period?
I have repeatedly said that I think that we need a QB, WR, RT, and RB on offense. That has not faltered, or changed. I have said all along that we can get a WR in free agency, but that we better have a plan at QB that we can communicate to prospective WR signees so they might actually want to sign here. Hell, we might even be able to find a RB in FA ...... but I don't think that we'll go crazy in overpaying a guy ..... unless Baltimore screws up and forgets to franchise Ray Rice.
I think that most of the people who want to continue with McCoy at QB also think that we need a WR, RB, RT .... but I think that some actually believe that we need 2 or 3 WRs ...... a RB ..... a couple of OL ....... maybe a TE ..... and who knows what else, and then we'll see the "true" Colt McCoy.
Those of us who do not want to continue with McCoy believe that parts of the team are being held back by the QB ........and that while upgrades are needed, rebuilding of units is not. Getting the right QB will help these units function better than they currently do, and adding a key piece here or there will have a much bigger impact than doing so and maintaining with this QB. Those who want to continue to with McCoy ..... or feel that he is a very minor part of the problem with this team, disagree. I think. Sometimes the arguments turn circular ..... where they think that the rest of the offense needs upgrades ...... and they think that McCoy can be a fine starter if only we could fix the rest of the team ....... and that no QB can be successful with what we have ...... but they would take a different QB if he fell to us in the 1st ....... even though they don't think that he will really be able to do anything ........
It's crazy. It's like trying to follow a spinning top.
I would really like to know, once and for all, how certain people feel about the team.
Do we need to replace the QB, or not. (as we stand right now, heading in to free agency and the draft)
What do we need to replace on offense to give us the potential of having a high powered and effective offense?
Would certain posters draft a QB at 4, or not. If the poster does not feel that QB is a problem, or the biggest problem on the team, and/or that changing QBs would not help, then why would he/she draft one, especially that high?
I have answered all of these questions, unequivocally. There is no doubt where I stand on any of them. I would love to have others answer them as well, and be "tied" to their answers, instead of dancing around, throwing little jabs ...... and ultimately saying little.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Lol the other thing that cracks me up is some people say that Colt sucks and is the major reason for the teams problems but if we dont somehow get a new QB this year Colt will lead us to 6 or more victorys next year and keep us from ever being able to move up in any draft in the future to replace him.
So lets settle for 2nd best in a 2 horse race (Luck vs RG3) because that way we will win 6 or more games next year and call it an improvement.
There are 3 things I know for sure. If Heckert thinks RG3 is all that and more he WILL be a Cleveland Brown.
If Heckert has RG3 listed as 4th on his draft board he MAY be a Cleveland Brown.
If Heckert has RG3 listed as 5th or lower he WONT be a Cleveland Brown.
I dont care what Mike or Pat think because they are not the GM and in the Past Mike said about Colt "I asked if I could have my QB now?" Heckert is running the Draft with imput from Mike and Pat but its his show, his job, and his reputation on the line as GM to improve the Cleveland Browns over the long term.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
I would really like to know, once and for all, how certain people feel about the team.
Do we need to replace the QB, or not. (as we stand right now, heading in to free agency and the draft)
I'll Play, I don't know if QB needs replaced but I like next years QB's (plural) then this years 1 available qb who is 2nd best in the draft an unproven Flynn or a broken down Manning. I dont need a placeholder avg QB (been there done that with Jake D. I'll wait and if RG3 is there at 4 I'd take him. Chances are I would trade down because Im betting on the next race anyway.
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What do we need to replace on offense to give us the potential of having a high powered and effective offense?
We need a WR with out a doubt, We also need effective play calling and effective QB play. We need to have a healthy RB who can catch the ball.
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Would certain posters draft a QB at 4, or not. If the poster does not feel that QB is a problem, or the biggest problem on the team, and/or that changing QBs would not help, then why would he/she draft one, especially that high?
See here is the biggest misuderstanding from some of the we must get RG3 at all costs and those of us that are not.
Would I draft a QB at #4? Yes
Would I draft a QB at #4 #22 #37 and possibly #4-10 next year? NO not for a QB who's biggest hype is hes the 2nd best in a 2 horse race when I see better bets in the next race.
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I have answered all of these questions, unequivocally. There is no doubt where I stand on any of them. I would love to have others answer them as well, and be "tied" to their answers, instead of dancing around, throwing little jabs ...... and ultimately saying little.
I dont dance around my answers people just dont pay attention to them. I like Luck but we are not getting him. I think RG3 could be a good/great QB but I like next years batch of QB's better. I dont know if the problem is Colt, Shurmurs play calling, or the other prolems on offense (dropped passes lack of a RB for most the season etc.) and as such am willing to let the draft fall to me and improve the team as much as possible this year.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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I appreciate your answering my questions.
Thank you. I disagree with some of your opinions, but that's fine. We're allowed to disagree.
If we have to move up next year to take a QB, what teams do you see as possibly being ahead of us in the draft? I wouldn't expect St Louis to be there, or Carolina. I would suspect that Indy would improve, and whoever gets RG3 will improve. What teams do you suspect will be ahead of us in the draft who might also need a QB? What do you think might be the cost of we manahe to win 6-7 games this year?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Nick my man,, you and I are thinking a lot alike.. one difference, I don't know much about the potential QB's that are coming out next year, so I can't really make that argument.. There is some confusion on one point. Why would anyone think RG3 is good enough to take a 4 but not good enough to move up to grab him at 2. You've answered that.. 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Ytown - I have answered every question you have asked. Perhaps in your lust for RG, you have failed to understand my posts. That, friend, is on you. Not me.
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Quote:
If we have to move up next year to take a QB, what teams do you see as possibly being ahead of us in the draft?
Honestly?
Tell me our record next year, and tell me the record of all the other teams next year.
Geesh - you honestly asked that question??????
Ah, heck, we better get rg this year or the sun won't rise......please, man, check your RG love at the door.
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Quote:
I appreciate your answering my questions.
Thank you. I disagree with some of your opinions, but that's fine. We're allowed to disagree.
If we have to move up next year to take a QB, what teams do you see as possibly being ahead of us in the draft? I wouldn't expect St Louis to be there, or Carolina. I would suspect that Indy would improve, and whoever gets RG3 will improve. What teams do you suspect will be ahead of us in the draft who might also need a QB? What do you think might be the cost of we manahe to win 6-7 games this year?
Wow thats hard to speculate out that far in advance but if we became the players in the move down game lets say with Washington and we would get lets say the 6th pick a 1st next year and 2nd this year (Id even take their 3rd instead of the 2nd but degress because someone will point ouf a draft chart somewhere) I think we will will as you said win 4-7 games next year. That should place us picking from 4-14 most likely. Washington probably will be about 8-8 have not looked at their schedule but lets say thats another pick in the teens. We have more then enough fire power to move up no matter whos in front of us.
Lets say the draft falls this way (spelling aside)
INDY- LUCK QB
ST Louis - Blackmon WR
Minny- Kawli OT
Wash - RG3
cant remember whos at 5 but Clayborn CB
That leaves us at 6 on the clock not really needing Richardson I would look to trade back again into the teens then grab the Best WR on my board gaining another 1st next year.
With 3 first next year I dont care who is in front of us we could move up to #1 if we wanted to. If we had 3 1st this year we could probably get Luck if we wanted to.
So more along your questions I think Minny Us St Louis Wash Seattle Indy Miami Tenn Buffalo Chicago Jacksonville Cinci Oakland Denver TB Carolina Arizona could all miss the playoffs just off the top of my head.
Injurys will go along way in some teams we think will be good falling as well. Pittsburgh has a fall off seems about once every 4 years so they are getting due and Balt is old as dirt still dont know how they maintain. lol
Again we have a long way to go before we can really speculate things but that right now would be a pretty good list of teams to start with.
Biggest jump may be minn next year so I dont expect to see them down this low again next year. Anyway alot of those teams are set at QB so I really dont see a problem moving up get a QB if we needed to.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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No ... actually, you haven't. You say that McCoy is just fine ...... but that you would replace him at 4 .... even though he's not the problem ....... but you wouldn't trade up for RG3 ...... because he wouldn't make a difference ........ because the rest of the team is really the problem ........ You have argued in a circular fashion that lets you win no matter what happens. You have expressed just enough doubt about McCoy that if he flops, you're covered. You have been just complimentary enough about RG3 that if he succeeds, you can be right. However, you have also expressed just enough doubt that if he fails, you can be right again. If we get a new QB and some new pieces to go with him, then you can argue that it was the other changes that really made the difference ...... however, if McCoy flops, well, you weren't 100% sold on him anyway ........ No matter what happens, you've got it covered, and you can be right. That's easy to do when you're on every side of an issue.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm kind of the same mind-set as arch... I'm not totally thrilled with the idea of trading a bunch to go get RG3 at 2.... I think we have too many needs and too many holes to fill so I don't like the idea of trading a ton to get him.... if he falls to 4 I'd take him in a second... I don't think he'll fall though.
I like Colt... don't know if he's the answer... think RG3 could be an upgrade over him, but I just don't know if I could pull the trigger to give away a ton of picks when we have so many holes.
Can't wait for FA though.
<><
#gmstrong
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No ... actually, you haven't.
You say that McCoy is just fine ......
My God, can you not read? Seriously???????? I have NEVER said that. Please, take off your RG socks and actually READ. Please. You're looking stupid. \Quote:
You have argued in a circular fashion that lets you win no matter what happens. You have expressed just enough doubt about McCoy that if he flops, you're covered. You have been just complimentary enough about RG3 that if he succeeds, you can be right. However, you have also expressed just enough doubt that if he fails, you can be right again. If we get a new QB and some new pieces to go with him, then you can argue that it was the other changes that really made the difference ...... however, if McCoy flops, well, you weren't 100% sold on him anyway ........
You honestly think that? Just because I'm not whole hog on trading whatever to get RG...........honestly - that's what you get out of my posts? Seriously? Again, take off RG's jock and read what I've posted.
Honestly, you think I'm trying to "cover my bases"???? What bases do I have to cover? Someone disagrees with you and you get your panties in a bunch? Really?
Someone points out FACTS about the Browns, and you attack that person because it doesn't suit your opinion? Really?
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No matter what happens, you've got it covered, and you can be right. That's easy to do when you're on every side of an issue.
I am NOT on every side of an issue. What I AM - and you are NOT - is a realist. I wish I lived in your dream world. However, I don't. I can see the Browns for what they were. Apparently you can only see the Browns qb. That is NOT my problem. That is yours.
Honestly, if you can't see that, perhaps you need to take your nose out of RG's jock and wake up.
Ironically - you call me a Colt lover when I've never been that, or said anything close to that. However, I could, and will, call you a "I have my nose so far up RG's ass I can smell his breath" lover.
But that's only after you decided the Browns couldn't get Luck, and only after Barkley decided to go back to college.
You get confused easily I guess, but I will say, once you focus, you ignore reality regardless.
Please, in the future, don't put words in my mouth. I thank you ahead of time. See, I am a Browns fan, not a "draft the flavor of the year fan regardless of cost".
I see things that apparently you can't. That is NOT my problem, it is yours.
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Perhaps, then, you would care to explain your analogyL Quote:
Better analogy: Judging an Indy 500 driver on his first 50 laps means nothing when the car is underpowered, his crew can't get him out of the pits on time, etc.
What exactly did you mean here?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Let me add my .02
I am one the thinks Colt was terrible this year for the most part. Probably said more than once he needs to be replaced. As time has passed now and the sting of another bad season is over, I now am looking at the situation a little more clearly.
I really don't know what to think about RGIII. I am also really not too sure what to think about McCoy. McCoy's rookie season showed some of the attributes the kid has. He's a leader and a hard worker. I do believe he has some shortcomings, and probably is not the type of QB to carry a team. He is a good leader, but not a difference maker.
The lost offseason killed a lot of development for the rookies last year. Colt got a double dip, with the new staff and schemes being brought in. As bad as many claim he played, and at times it was bad, he still showed some qualities you need in a starting QB. But, just as he had many bad plays, there also were many bad things happening around him. If all the drops don't happen, his completion percentage goes way up. Also many drives would have continued. The loss of Hillis and Hardesty and to some degree Jackson, really had a big effect on the offense. Many like to bash Shurmur's playcalling, but to me it was not the problem. EXECUTION was the problem.
I think too many under estimate the complexity of the WCO offense, and what it takes to succeed running it. Besides the RBs being out, in camp Massaquoi was out too. Add to that a rookie WR and a misfit like Robo. All these things must be taken into account when evaluating McCoy. But also, you must look at his shortcomings also. It is not one or the other as many here seem to use as their arguement.
Griffin just might be the guy, noone knows. McCoy could be very well capable of improving with an offseason also, again noone knows.
My bottom line is, and I think it is what Arch is trying to say too. Is that while RGIII may be a franchise guy, the needs of the team are so many that trading 1st rounders to move up 1 or 2 spots is very expensive as far as the Browns are concerned. With their top three picks all having potential to become starters, they could be giving up a couple potential starters to get one starter. I know the QB is a special circumstance, but a combination of RT and WR plus one other position being filled could go way further in bettering this team.
With the addition of these three positions, and a full offseason to work on the offensive schemes and timing, Colt could very well lead the team more effectively. It also could be said that RGIII could lead the team to a better record, but that is still a question noone knows the answer to.
Bottom line with me is, and I believe it is the same for Arch, is that having RGIII fall to us at #4 would be great. We get the POTENTIAL franchise guy, but we do not lose out on having the ability to still fill two other needs with high picks and potential starters. So for me it is not that I think RGII is not good enough to move up for, he just might be. But, giving up those other picks to get him isn't prudent at this time for this team.
McCoy wasn't so bad that I think that with upgrades at WR, a healthy running game, and some better protection that he won't be able to elevate his game. I also believe that having an offseason is going to show exactly what he can do. Will it be good enough? No one can so so at this point, just as noone can say that the team will improve with RGIII. Griffin is going to have to learn a new system and adjust as all rookies do, so even if down the line he can become great, it won't be next year that it will happen. Even though some compare him to Cam Newton, he is not anywhere the player Newton is.
So for me, if RGIII is there at 4, I take him. But I do not trade picks to get him. As many said, there will be QBs just as good or better next year. And using the excuse that the team will win more, thus having a lower pick will kill our chances at a franchise guy later, is a farce IMO. If all you need is that one player, there are ways to move up to get him. But at this time the needs all over the team are too big to pay the big price of trading picks.
I think McCoy can fill the void if we don't draft a franchise guy. So if he's there take him, if not take BPA..........there will be many quality choices looking Heckert in the face. These three high picks could reall help in the building of a good team that will last.
#gmstrong
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It might be a smokescreen. It might not be. We may not know until training camp. It is unlikely that Colt will be cut/released. He is going to be on the roster, why not talk him up? Quote:
Doesn't sound like a smokescreen to me.
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I fully agree with all of this. Quote:
I really don't know what to think about RGIII. I am also really not too sure what to think about McCoy...
Griffin just might be the guy, noone knows. McCoy could be very well capable of improving with an offseason also, again noone knows... while RGIII may be a franchise guy, the needs of the team are so many that trading 1st rounders to move up 1 or 2 spots is very expensive as far as the Browns are concerned. With their top three picks all having potential to become starters, they could be giving up a couple potential starters to get one starter....
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Excellent post I totally agree. Good to see well thought out discussion going on.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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...and WHEN and HOW and at what COST do you upgrade the QB position then? Does it get any "better" (should probably say "worse") than holding a top 5 pick AND another 1st rounder...and multiple mid/late round selcetions and having 2 of the best QB prospects to come out in the last years? Honestly...I'd like to know from all these cheapstakes here: WHEN is a better timing? The upcoming QB prospects won't have much less question marks...you don't have a franchise QB? You draft one...worked for Pittsburgh, NYG and it turned the fate of perennial losing teams like DET and ATL...(CAR looking bright too) Also, there are franchise-RBs, OGs, WRs, LBs, CBs even some DE and some rare OT available in FA...but NEVER a QB....it took Brees a crushed shoulder and another good QB on the roster to hit FA, so yall can save your breathe on this one WHEN? By your and arch's "logic" the answer has to be pretty much NEVER...or getting as lucky as the Colts of having a real crap season and no1 when the best QB prospect in years is in the pool Cleveland Browns: always next year
#gmstrong
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Good post.
I'm not very high on McCoy, and I think he's fairly close to his ceiling, but I could live with him under center for another season. This team needs a lot of work before it's competitive. Burning picks to move up two spots for Griffin is not a luxury/risk we can afford right now.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, but for the most part I'm a believer in having a solid core and then getting your QB. It's very easy for a young QB to develop bad habits. If we moved up for Griffin, we're probably not picking again until the third round. We simply have too many holes to make a move like that.
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Quote:
...and WHEN and HOW and at what COST do you upgrade the QB position then? Does it get any "better" (should probably say "worse") than holding a top 5 pick AND another 1st rounder...and multiple mid/late round selcetions and having 2 of the best QB prospects to come out in the last years?
Honestly...I'd like to know from all these cheapstakes here: WHEN is a better timing? The upcoming QB prospects won't have much less question marks...you don't have a franchise QB? You draft one...worked for Pittsburgh, NYG and it turned the fate of perennial losing teams like DET and ATL...(CAR looking bright too)
Also, there are franchise-RBs, OGs, WRs, LBs, CBs even some DE and some rare OT available in FA...but NEVER a QB....it took Brees a crushed shoulder and another good QB on the roster to hit FA, so yall can save your breathe on this one
WHEN? By your and arch's "logic" the answer has to be pretty much NEVER...or getting as lucky as the Colts of having a real crap season and no1 when the best QB prospect in years is in the pool
Cleveland Browns: always next year
Answer these questions which QB draft is better this years not including Luck because we are not getting him or next years? Which is a better draft for QB's then ask yourself if your going to make a move would you do it for 2nd best in a 2 horse race or make a move in a much deeper and promising draft at that pos?
Finally ask yourself if RG3 was coming out next year would he be #1 overall? IF you answer yes to all those questions then no problem I understand your position but if you answer no to any of them (which I do) then you have a reason to move on and never look back.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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RG3 is leaps and bounds more talented than Barkley and Landry Jones combined...L.Jones is incredibly overrated anyways (there's a reason he went back to school, he sucked)...Barkley is a decent prospect, but his ceiling isn't that high....watching USC...was/is he really that much a better QB than Sanchez or Leinart?...answer THAT question  Also, if we keep all those high picks and draft a great WR, a good RT and a nice pass rushing DE with our 3 Top 50 picks, chances are we won't pick in the Top 50 or even 10 next season... IF (I'll go with your opinion for arguments sake) next years class is better than RG3 and RG3 costs as much as is speculated...how much MORE would it cost to go get whoever you think is better than RG3? You think all of sudden we will get our QB at 8? or 10? (wherever we pick) That "better than RG3" QB will magically fall to us? or do you think the cost will just be a 2nd and a mid rounder? or do you think after watching a bunch of 2012 rooks perform good you'll think we're finally "good enough" to go get our QB? (you guys are pretty spoiled if you think you can get a Taylor-Sheard outside the Top 20 every draft...that was an incredibly deep draft and an excellent job drafting and coaching up we witnessed)...Cmon, get real and at least be honest that a) you're either a cheapstake/prospect happy or b) you simply dont like RG...but I won't buy the "next year is better timing" BS, because it ain't
#gmstrong
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But let me run a "what if" by you ........
What if ... the Browns re-sign RB Hillis.
Sign DE Mario Williams (or even another upper tier, but not top pass rusher)
Sign WR Pierre Garcon (sp) or Bowe. (Since Crennel said that KC may not franchise him)
Use their 3rd round pick on a RT
Draft a speedy OLB in the 4th round
Resign Mike Adams (S) and Dimitri Patterson (CB).
How does it look if we add:
Draft Griffin, while giving up both 1st round picks and our 2nd round pick?
I think that would still be a huge improvement over this past year ...... and we would (hopefully) have our QB spot settled and solidified for the next 10 years.
I would suspect that we could fit such signings under the cap. (or at least most of them, maybe having to draft a pass rushing DE in the 3rd-5th rounds ..... where they can be, and have been found, and maybe slipping the RT back to the 4th/5th round)
Then we would also still have maybe a 5th, 2 6ths, and 3 7th round picks (from supplemental picks)
I would take that in a heartbeat.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
RG3 is leaps and bounds more talented than Barkley and Landry Jones combined...L.Jones is incredibly overrated anyways (there's a reason he went back to school, he sucked)...Barkley is a decent prospect, but his ceiling isn't that high....watching USC...was/is he really that much a better QB than Sanchez or Leinart?...answer THAT question
Yes - definitely. I wouldn't hesistate at all to take Barkley at number 2. He has the best progressions of any college QB i've ever seen.
~Lyuokdea
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Quote:
RG3 is leaps and bounds more talented than Barkley and Landry Jones combined...L.Jones is incredibly overrated anyways (there's a reason he went back to school, he sucked)...Barkley is a decent prospect, but his ceiling isn't that high....watching USC...was/is he really that much a better QB than Sanchez or Leinart?...answer THAT question
Then we have to agree to disagree and again I understand your pos on the issue. I think if both Jones and Barkley came out they would be drafted above/between RG3 this year. So you think that if RG3 was in next years draft he would be the #1 overall pick? If you do I have no problem with that I just disagree and given another year think both those guys will be much better.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
But let me run a "what if" by you ........
What if ... the Browns re-sign RB Hillis.
Sign DE Mario Williams (or even another upper tier, but not top pass rusher)
Sign WR Pierre Garcon (sp) or Bowe. (Since Crennel said that KC may not franchise him)
Use their 3rd round pick on a RT
Draft a speedy OLB in the 4th round
Resign Mike Adams (S) and Dimitri Patterson (CB).
How does it look if we add:
Draft Griffin, while giving up both 1st round picks and our 2nd round pick?
I think that would still be a huge improvement over this past year ...... and we would (hopefully) have our QB spot settled and solidified for the next 10 years.
I would suspect that we could fit such signings under the cap. (or at least most of them, maybe having to draft a pass rushing DE in the 3rd-5th rounds ..... where they can be, and have been found, and maybe slipping the RT back to the 4th/5th round)
Then we would also still have maybe a 5th, 2 6ths, and 3 7th round picks (from supplemental picks)
I would take that in a heartbeat.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, IF, they move up to get RG,, and STILL find a way to add weapons quickly, then I'm ok with it.
My argument against moving up has nothing to do with RG himself.,, I think this kid could be special from what little I've seen. but if they can get him AND still add the pieces, I'm ok with that..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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....... yet it's not McCoy's fault that we stunk, because the rest of the team stunk ....... .......... :
I'm not sure who said it, but, I think its the Qb's fault, whoever they are.
It's absolutely the Qb's fault if the team around him " stunk" , the 14 or so rotational blockers and skilled postion players don't take the snaps, almost every snap is taken by the QB.
The defense is mostly just trying to give the ball back to the offense and that means the QB, there's only so much they can do to score off turnovers.
The Runningback is the only one who can take over a game in spite of a Qb, it is almost completely the QB's responsibility for the team doing well, except for the OverWhealming responsibliity of the Head Coach.
Except Nothing OverTrumph's bad Coaching.
A good coach can overcome a bad, (team talent), if he has a great QB, more easily than a good (team talent), can overcome a bad QB, led by a bad coach.
If the Bad head coach, has a good Qb and a great (team talent) , then the talent can help the Qb overcome the Head coach for a couple of wins, but the Head Coach is always there to screw things up at the end of the game.
If you have the good head coach and the great QB, and bad (team talent), then the QB only has to find one of those players to deliver the ball to at the end of the game. ( but the team talent can always give up another score by being bad, to screw things up in the end.)
But in responsibility. Head coach 1, Qb 2, (team talent) 3,
And if the Coach puts the team in position to win coming to the end of the game, then it becomes QB with the #1 responsibility for how the team around him does.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Dont be fooled by the eye candy the guy has come out of a system designed to make the QB look great. Its a smoke and mirrors thing. We (the browns) cannot afford to be taken in by fools gold.
Hes the real deal because he has no compitition besides the best QB.
Lets place him in a draft with some real QB's next year see how that works out.
I know cant be done but next year is the year of the QB why should we be sold into the farce of we need to get this guy this year because hes the 2nd best availble?
Hes not a once in a lifetime selection hes not even a once in this draft selection. Hes 2nd best in a weak QB draft.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Ok, so we disagree on ranking Barkley and RG3, no problem at all here...but you haven't answered how Barkley magically will cost less than RG3 this draft, especially since he's considered even better by you (and probably some others too)...I'd like to know the cost of that? and there's no Luck spoiler to push him to 2...so I guess you'd be looking at aquirng the no1 overall, right? Also, if we keep those 3 top 50 selections and draft day 1 starters at WR, DE and RT...along with the "natural" and expected improvement of a very young team (yes, McCoy included, he cant play much worse after all), being in their 2nd year in the same system/same coaches and finally an offseason...don't you think we're not likely to pick in the top 5 again? If so, won't the cost of trading up from 6-10 to 1 be much higher than 4 to 2? Just a thought 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Ok, so we disagree on ranking Barkley and RG3, no problem at all here...but you haven't answered how Barkley magically will cost less than RG3 this draft, especially since he's considered even better by you (and probably some others too)...I'd like to know the cost of that? and there's no Luck spoiler to push him to 2...so I guess you'd be looking at aquirng the no1 overall, right?
Also, if we keep those 3 top 50 selections and draft day 1 starters at WR, DE and RT...along with the "natural" and expected improvement of a very young team (yes, McCoy included, he cant play much worse after all), being in their 2nd year in the same system/same coaches and finally an offseason...don't you think we're not likely to pick in the top 5 again?
If so, won't the cost of trading up from 6-10 to 1 be much higher than 4 to 2? Just a thought
I have outlined my path earlier and have no problems giving up picks to get "the guy" I just dont think RG3 is the guy. I dont think that if we draft RG3 this year we will improve beyond the same as if we keep McCoy. That leaves us with less picks this year (and perhaps) next to improve the team and no chance to get a guy that I think will be better then RG3 next year.
Given my druthers I would improve the team this year and stockpile picks next year giving me the chance to move up if need be to grab a top flight QB because we will know that answer then if we even need one.
I said this earlier that it amazes me that people are scared that Colt who sucks will take us to 6 wins and never allow us to move up but if we get RG3 giving up alot of picks to get him will be held back for a year and get us to 6 wins and thats good? Hes not the best in this draft, Hes not the best is next years draft either.
If Colt sucks as bad as some of you say we wont win more then 4 games next year (tougher schedule) and we will be in prime pos but your worried that we will win more with Colt and be taken out of the QB sweepstake lol.
I'll take my chances on moving down gaining picks next year and gambling on a deeper draft to move up with Colt winning more games.
I know that doesnt fit the agenda but thats how I feel.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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...and if Barkley is better than RG3 and will go no1 next draft...why would the no1 team not take him like the Colts do this draft with Luck? Chances are you don't even have a shot at drafting Barkley next draft...remember when people on here were excited to have multiple picks this draft to go get Luck? Oh well
You guys don't realize how rare it is that 2 top 5 teams picking ahead of us BOTH don't need a QB (STL and Minny)....next draft we're more likely to be the Dophins of this year's draft...as in....3rd in row to bid for a QB, IF we even get a chance to bid that is
#gmstrong
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I haven't worked the numbers the way some people here do but I still contend that if the plan is to give Colt another year.. assuming for a second that the FO isn't 100% sold on RGIII or isn't 100% sold on Colt not being able to turn the corner... then we could use our #4, 22 and second round pick in a trade that nets us a decent first round pick this year, another high pick and somebodys first next year.. Basically what I'd like to do under that scenario is find a way to add a couple good players and punt that additional first round pick to next year.. that way if we add talent and don't see what we need to see out of Colt, we still have bargaining power next year... Maybe instead of #4 and #22 we have #7 and #19... who knows... either way we are solidified in at least a few more positions and we still have some picks to use to move up.
yebat' Putin
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OMG,.,, Django= the boards Rush Limbaugh ..
Right 99.6% of the time!
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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That's a fine idea....but what if next draft there aren't 2 stud QBs? If there's only 1 he will most probably go 1 like Luck this draft...and then we're left scrambling
Sure, if they aren't sold on RG3, then don't draft him....I'm only disputing some reasoning in this thread that we will somehow pay less to go get a QB prospect in the upcoming drafts or think we're guaranteed to even have the chance to trade up to one...and those prospects will have weaknesses too, believe it or not
I suspect that the way some argue that they simply NEVER will be comfortable trading up for a QB...like poker players that only play AA and other premium hands....it's a losers mindset
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Perhaps, then, you would care to explain your analogyL
Quote:
Better analogy: Judging an Indy 500 driver on his first 50 laps means nothing when the car is underpowered, his crew can't get him out of the pits on time, etc.
What exactly did you mean here?
I meant exactly what I said. Really, it's not that tough to figure out.
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