|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
its amazing how some people believe if the Browns don't draft RG3 then the Browns will be forever in QB purgatory.
Its still early to just jettison McCoy out the door after about what is it,20 NFL starts?
McCoy's been a victim of 2 offensive coordinators who aren't exactly considered NFL genius by the football masses.
Brad Childress knows something the QB position.
maybe he give a fresh perspective on Colt.
I do know that when your offense lead the NFL in drops,it says more about your supporting cast than the QB.
Can anyone tell me how many pure WR's are on the Browns roster that offer something other than a scout team body?
How many TE's on the Browns are a legit matchup problem down the seams?
the Browns were last in the NFL in rushing.
but people want to usher in RG3 and give up draft picks.
So RG3 is supposed to come in with a cape and make all these problems just vanish?
the Browns have too many holes to fill and then just give them away so that they can create a positive vibe for the city.
last time I checked the Browns need a RT,3rd down RB, 2 WRs, pass rushing threat off the edge and LB.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Quote:
....... yet it's not McCoy's fault that we stunk, because the rest of the team stunk ....... .......... :
I'm not sure who said it, but, I think its the Qb's fault, whoever they are.
It's absolutely the Qb's fault if the team around him " stunk" , the 14 or so rotational blockers and skilled postion players don't take the snaps, almost every snap is taken by the QB.
The defense is mostly just trying to give the ball back to the offense and that means the QB, there's only so much they can do to score off turnovers.
The Runningback is the only one who can take over a game in spite of a Qb, it is almost completely the QB's responsibility for the team doing well, except for the OverWhealming responsibliity of the Head Coach.
Except Nothing OverTrumph's bad Coaching.
A good coach can overcome a bad, (team talent), if he has a great QB, more easily than a good (team talent), can overcome a bad QB, led by a bad coach.
If the Bad head coach, has a good Qb and a great (team talent) , then the talent can help the Qb overcome the Head coach for a couple of wins, but the Head Coach is always there to screw things up at the end of the game.
If you have the good head coach and the great QB, and bad (team talent), then the QB only has to find one of those players to deliver the ball to at the end of the game. ( but the team talent can always give up another score by being bad, to screw things up in the end.)
But in responsibility. Head coach 1, Qb 2, (team talent) 3,
And if the Coach puts the team in position to win coming to the end of the game, then it becomes QB with the #1 responsibility for how the team around him does.
believe it or not only about 10% of the QB's in the League can make every throw 'well' ... The other 90% have to be managed by their (OC) Coach to play to their respective QB's strengths.
btw Joe Montana had to be managed by Bill Walsh. Holmgren and CO. are descended from that family tree and way of coaching QB's.
To say that a QB has to make all the throws is not exactly an accurate statement ... the more the better naturally.
I think part of the blame can be put on the Coaching staff and even though I don't think it's fare to Judge Shurmur without the luxury of knowing how to properly manage McCoy in the short time that he had.
The blame needs to be shared.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
That's a fine idea....but what if next draft there aren't 2 stud QBs? If there's only 1 he will most probably go 1 like Luck this draft...and then we're left scrambling
Sure, if they aren't sold on RG3, then don't draft him....I'm only disputing some reasoning in this thread that we will somehow pay less to go get a QB prospect in the upcoming drafts or think we're guaranteed to even have the chance to trade up to one...and those prospects will have weaknesses too, believe it or not
I suspect that the way some argue that they simply NEVER will be comfortable trading up for a QB...like poker players that only play AA and other premium hands....it's a losers mindset
Next draft I expect there to be at least 2 stud QB's perhaps up to 4 . Always depends on who comes out but there will be at least 2 same as this draft. I really do think many are saying its about what we are giving up as much as when we are giving it up. This year we need another good draft with a team that needs talent as opposed to next year when we will have added that talent and moving up will not hurt as much. I know its a chicken and egg thing but I would rather have a dozen eggs this year rather then the chicken instead of trading the dozen eggs this year to get the chicken.
Im not in the we will pay less in fact you are probably correct it will cost more however that is only if Colt improves and if Colt improving is my biggest worry about not trading alot of picks then Im not worried. See the difference? The AA combo is us at pick #4 at pick #2 they have KQ Suited with a flop of J 10 9 do you bet all in or fold? I fold let some other team crap out if they want to and live for the next hand and play on.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 106
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 106 |
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7406/robert-griffin-iiiLatest News Recent News Teams sources tell NBC Philadelphia's Howard Eskin the Redskins are prepared to offer the Rams their top three 2012 picks and "at least" their 2013 first-round pick to move up to draft Baylor QB Robert Griffin III. If true, it would be a positively Ricky Williams-ian haul for the Rams, who saw the value of their No. 2 pick increase even further on Sunday when Griffin was unofficially timed at a blazing 4.38 in the 40 at the Combine. Eskin's report comes two days after SI.com's Tony Pauline reported the Rams have engaged in "exploratory talks" with the Redskins about a swap. Feb 26 - 10:42 AM Source: Howard Eskin on Twitter Report: 'Skins to make huge offer for RGIII Feb 26 - 10:42 AM Baylor QB Griffin runs official 4.41 40 time Feb 26 - 9:09 AM Rams have only 10% chance of staying at #2? Feb 26 - 6:07 AM Report: Redskins, Fins, Seahawks in on RGIII Feb 26 - 5:00 AM
Last edited by Riffer X; 02/26/12 09:28 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861 |
If that's accurate,, anyone wanna guess what we'd have to give up,,
The price is going up,...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Nice that should end the debate for once and for all. If the Browns would match that offer RG3 better be better then Colt lol really he would have to exceed even the lofty expectations of those who have been pimping him by X4.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Why would they be telling this to the Philadelphia affiliate of NBC? Any chance this was floated by Philadelphia so that they could say "Don't trade up for RG3 ...it'll cost WAY too much! Why don't you trade down with us instead??" It's rumor season folks... 
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 |
I think the Redskins are foolish to lay out a hand like this so early..
There is gonna be at least one GM that says we can offer more than that.. lets do it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
It's the silly season. Interesting things out there, but I won't believe any of it until it happens.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
We don't except Twitter as a source on DT or rumors for that matter. Speculations are Okay ... just look at any QB thread. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 830
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 830 |
Quote:
Why would they be telling this to the Philadelphia affiliate of NBC?
Any chance this was floated by Philadelphia so that they could say "Don't trade up for RG3 ...it'll cost WAY too much! Why don't you trade down with us instead??"
It's rumor season folks...
Maybe the Rams are driving up their own price. No matter where you drop a rumor like this its going nationwide within 24 hours.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
Quote:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7406/robert-griffin-iii
Latest News
Recent News
Teams sources tell NBC Philadelphia's Howard Eskin the Redskins are prepared to offer the Rams their top three 2012 picks and "at least" their 2013 first-round pick to move up to draft Baylor QB Robert Griffin III.
If true, it would be a positively Ricky Williams-ian haul for the Rams, who saw the value of their No. 2 pick increase even further on Sunday when Griffin was unofficially timed at a blazing 4.38 in the 40 at the Combine. Eskin's report comes two days after SI.com's Tony Pauline reported the Rams have engaged in "exploratory talks" with the Redskins about a swap. Feb 26 - 10:42 AM
Source: Howard Eskin on Twitter
Report: 'Skins to make huge offer for RGIII
Feb 26 - 10:42 AM
Baylor QB Griffin runs official 4.41 40 time
Feb 26 - 9:09 AM
Rams have only 10% chance of staying at #2?
Feb 26 - 6:07 AM
Report: Redskins, Fins, Seahawks in on RGIII
Feb 26 - 5:00 AM
It's silly season and I don't put much weight into it. It may be wrong.... it may not be.
Shanahan with the Broncos didn't show any interest in Cutler before the draft.. yet traded up to get him. Last year everyone was convinced the 'Skins would take Gabbert if he 'fell', and they passed. I'm actually more inclined to believe the opposite of what the reports are on Washington and their desire for QBs. Maybe they'll second level me.
And of course, the Rams have a vested interest in driving up the price for that pick....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
Quote:
You guys don't realize how rare it is that 2 top 5 teams picking ahead of us BOTH don't need a QB (STL and Minny)....next draft we're more likely to be the Dophins of this year's draft...as in....3rd in row to bid for a QB, IF we even get a chance to bid that is
Not quite Rocket Science is it...LOL...
"Next Year"...That's what I call playing Russian Roullette...
These guys think these QB's are sooooo easy to acquire...It's hilarious...
We're damn LUCKY that the Rams are at 2 this year...Cause if it was the Skins or Miami we wouldn't even have a prayer at getting Griffin...It would be a dead lock 1-2 Luck and Griffin...
Yeah...Let's WAIT till next year for a QB...And pray like hell there's a team ahead of us who would actually agree to a move down...
I've quickly come to a conclusion about all of this QB stuff...
It's showing me what Browns Fans actually GET IT...And who doesn't...
QB's and draft picks traded for said QB will always be a hot burner at the local watering hole...
Go Browns!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861 |
Quote:
Why would they be telling this to the Philadelphia affiliate of NBC?
Any chance this was floated by Philadelphia so that they could say "Don't trade up for RG3 ...it'll cost WAY too much! Why don't you trade down with us instead??"
It's rumor season folks...
Don't have a clue why it was the Philly station.. But look around, I think you will see that the hype machine is running full speed.. Shouldn't surprise any of us that the price could be moving upwards.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I believe that you must strike while the iron is hot.
Next year, the iron could be stone cold, and it will never be molded into a weapon, no matter how much anyone pounds on it.
We were not going to be able to get Stafford in 2009, no matter what we offered the Lions.
We were not going to be able Sam Bradford in 2010, no matter what we offered the Rams. (and from what Holmgren said, we offered a lot)
We were not going to be able to get Newton in 2011, no matter what we offered the Panthers.
Teams with a dire need at QB do not trade away the opportunity to draft a franchise QB. They take the QB and let the cards fall where they may. (especially with the new CBA) Hell, I'm surprised that the Vikings would trade back ...... and I'm not really 100% sure that they would if they have RG3 starting them in the face. They have Christian Ponder, and he looks like he could be a pretty good QB ...... and they are built around the run ...... but RG3 is a special talent, and Ponder has looked just good enough in his limited action that a team may have an interest in trading for him if the Vikings did draft RG3. I would imagine that he would probably still bring a decent price if traded.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
but what if ...
With all due respect, the whole thing is one big giant WHAT IF... What if RGIII is a bust? What if Luck ends up being Matt Hasselbeck and Tannehill ends up being the true stud QB in the draft? What if we might use the #22 pick on the next Ray Lewis? We can play the what if game forever.. and we pretty much have and will continue to up to and beyond the draft... that's what makes it fun.
Quote:
Sure, if they aren't sold on RG3, then don't draft him....
And that's what this boils down to.. how sold are they that RGIII is the real deal.. and I think that is what most people are expressing.. if you have any doubts at all, then wait.
Quote:
I suspect that the way some argue that they simply NEVER will be comfortable trading up for a QB...like poker players that only play AA and other premium hands....it's a losers mindset
I understand that, but this isn't poker, on the field on Sunday other teams don't fold just because they think you have a good hand. In other words, you can't bluff your way through the process. So if you are advocating giving up multiple picks this year and maybe even a high pick next year.. that is sort of the equivalent of going all-in if I follow your analogy.. and you don't do that with off suit 10-Queen unless you absolutely have no choice... and we do have a choice.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
Quote:
We were not going to be able Sam Bradford in 2010, no matter what we offered the Rams. (and from what Holmgren said, we offered a lot)
This does suggest that Holmgren's not afraid to look to making a big move. The question really does come to how high they value RGIII. It's a risk reward proposition.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
That's true. Holmgren was prepared to give up most of that draft, plus picks in the following draft for Bradford ....... so who knows? (from newspaper reports and his interviews)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,632
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,632 |
This is basically the same logic that is running around my brain. As unpalatable as it is to "sell the farm" to get a player we'll likely not be in a better position to actually get a franchise QB for a long long time. Yes; we have lots of other holes, yes; Colt didn't get a fair shake last year, No; it's likely no QB would be great in this offense right now etc etc etc. I think RG3 is a player you build a franchise around, you change plans for. He's sitting right there and no one has more ammo than we do. It's going to hurt and it's a gamble but (FACT) we're not going to win anything unless we gamble. Go hard in FA for a WR and RT and go get your QB.
My only reservation and worry is the reports I've ready stating that the coaching staff "doesn't know what to do with him". That sounds so VERY Cleveland and frankly scares the hell out of me.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I also think this ......
We are way behind the other 3 teams in our division offensively, and most specifically, with regards to QB play. We can improve the offense by adding pieces, but until we get the QB position right, we still won't get to equal standing with the other teams in our division.
We might get to Arizona cardinal standard .... pretty good on defense ....... middle of the league in scoring defense .......... a 1st round WR and RB .... both great talents ...... they have a solid #2 in Doucet, and a solid TE in Heap ......... and yet they are a .500 team in a division that has struggled mightily in recent years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
I looked just because some people are thinking that we cant ever move up to get a QB or they dont fall in the last years draft Newton went #1 Locker to Tenn #8 Ponder to Minn at #12 2010- Bradford #1 to Rams Tebow #25 to Denver (I thought this was a major reach) 2009- Stafford to Detroit #1 Sanchez to NYJ (through us)#5 Freeman TB #17 2008- Ryan to Atl #3 Flacco to Balt #18 2007 Russell to Oak #1 Quinn to Cleveland (through Dallas) #22 2006 Young to Tenn #3 Leinert to Ariz #10 Cutler to Denver #11 So looking at drafts with more then 2 QB's I think its pretty easy to see we can get one no matter where we draft. I really found kinda strange that in the last 2 drafts with 2 supposed franchise QB's in the same draft we moved up and grabbed 1 (Quinn) and traded the other (Sanchez) so for all you RG3 fans lets hope if they make the move 3rd times the charm. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861 |
Quote:
That's true. Holmgren was prepared to give up most of that draft, plus picks in the following draft for Bradford ....... so who knows? (from newspaper reports and his interviews)
We've had this conversation before, I'm not at all sure where you get that we were prepared to give up most of that draft? It might have been the asking price, dunno but it's pretty clear that if we wanted Bradford enough, that draft and part of another would have done it.
But, Holmgren didn't pull the trigger.
I have to believe there is always a way. I mean,, right now, if we said to Indy,, we'll give you our entire draft this year and our 1st and 2nd pick next season,, I think they'd have to seriously look at it.
Especially since with all that, they'd have the ammuntion to move right back up to 2 and get RG.. and STILL have a ton of picks left to add tons of talent.
What it comes down to is price. Everything has a price. (well, most everything anyway)
At what point do you say,, the price is too high.
By the way, by the looks of things, I"m really glad we didn't give up the ship to get Bradford...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I posted articles with quotes by Holmgren, and you ignored them ....... so I'm not all that concerned about what you believe or don't believe.
He also said that the Rams wouldn't trade the pick no matter what, and that they were right not to do so, or words to that effect.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
My "what if" scenario is the rule though when it comes to drafts and QB prospects, I actually tried to be cynical with my wording there as I think this is the norm...normally there's 1 top notch QB at best, not often are there 2 like this draft...when was the last time every analyst said 2 QBs will and have to go 1 and 2? This draft is pretty unique and as YTown has shown...we didn't even have a shot at a franchise QB despite drafting in the top 10 almost every year Quote:
I understand that, but this isn't poker, on the field on Sunday other teams don't fold just because they think you have a good hand. In other words, you can't bluff your way through the process. So if you are advocating giving up multiple picks this year and maybe even a high pick next year.. that is sort of the equivalent of going all-in if I follow your analogy.. and you don't do that with off suit 10-Queen unless you absolutely have no choice... and we do have a choice.
I'd call tradin up for RG a "semi-bluff" with a good +EV since RG, the player, is not holding nothing after the move, right? It's a good bet without going all in...we still would have plenty enough picks
I still think 4+22 and our 2nd THIS draft is absolute maximum, we really do not have to dip into next draft at all...I'd offer those 3 picks and ask a 4th back from the Rams and give them another 6th (that equate in net value a high 2nd rounder, so basically same as 4+22+37 and that's better than 1, 2, 3 and 1st 2013 from WAS)...I don't consider the drop off from 37 to 96 as significant and the Rams don't look stupid from a value chart perspective...that'd be my max scenario and I think it won't be necessary once the FA QBs have found a home...after Flynn and Peyton are signed that leaves 2 obvious suitors left with maybe 1 or 2 dark horses from WAY back...and dropping just 2 spots and holding 3 top 50 picks is our strong leverage spot in the negotiation
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Quote:
But let me run a "what if" by you ........
What if ... the Browns re-sign RB Hillis.
Sign DE Mario Williams (or even another upper tier, but not top pass rusher)
Sign WR Pierre Garcon (sp) or Bowe. (Since Crennel said that KC may not franchise him)
Use their 3rd round pick on a RT
Draft a speedy OLB in the 4th round
Resign Mike Adams (S) and Dimitri Patterson (CB).
Not bad....But I contend we would be even better....
Keep:
Mario Williams, Pierre Garcon, and Patterson scenarios...
Then Draft:
1a Claiborne
1b Cordy Glenn
2 Zach Brown/Shawn Spence/Lavonte David
3 RB David Wilson/LaMichael James
Sheldon Brown moves to safety next to Ward( Or sign Mike Adams again...whichever) and with Patterson and Skrine we put together one of the best secondaries in the NFL next to a promising and possibly scary Front 4.
Cordy Glenn allows us to give Hillis and whatever backs we get a place to run especially with Steiny coming back.
Garcon does exactly what he would have in your scenario...
And we don't have to rely on a developmental RT to develop and a "speedy LB" at 4 to make the improbable transition out of the gates. Your scenario sounds all nice and good except that Patterson while a very good nickle back...is not an all that starter on the outside.....and you didn't fix the Oline with with your 3rd round pick....
Lets just say Pashos vs 3rd round pick and RGIII < Colt and potential AllPro RT in my eyes....
And I CAN say that when you consider that RGIII does not fit our system(as most analysts have attested to) that we will have to change and will most likely be very hesitant to do....and he will be in his first year in the hardest Offense to learn. (This is not to say he cannot learn it nor will not or won't be successful in our league....I just dont think he is a good "fit" for this team)
not to mention I am able to bring in solid depth at RB before we even hit the 4th round where you seem to think we will be finding solid starters.
So my Defense is FAR better and I believe my Offense is as good or better than your scenario....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I disagree. We would then be the Cardinals ..... lucky to get to 8-8 when our divisional opponents suck ...... and stuck in limbo ..... between truly awful, and good.
McCoy is a drag on this offense. Some may disagree ..... and some may waffle like crazy ..... but I honestly believe that. We will not get past "fair" with him as our QB ... and we will never get past Baltimore and Pittsburgh with him as our QB. (unless that just completely fall apart to the point where everyone beats them, which I don't expect to happen anytime soon)
IMHO, of course.
We have an opportunity to get a franchise QB this year, an dif we miss on it, we will probably be stuck in 4-12 to 8-8 limbo/hell for years and years to come.
I would rather have an average RT and a great young QB than a great RT and a crappy young QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
8-8 would be a dream season in Cleveland. when was the last time the Browns went 8-8?
the Cardinals..well they did go to a Super Bowl.
no what drags this offense down is that antiqated WCO offense that Holmgren insists on having.
it just defines conservatism and does not attack defenses vertically.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
Quote:
And I CAN say that when you consider that RGIII does not fit our system
Why not? 
Go Browns!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Quote:
Quote:
And I CAN say that when you consider that RGIII does not fit our system
Why not?
he has talent 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
Quote:
8-8 would be a dream season in Cleveland. when was the last time the Browns went 8-8?
the Cardinals..well they did go to a Super Bowl.
no what drags this offense down is that antiqated WCO offense that Holmgren insists on having.
it just defines conservatism and does not attack defenses vertically.
Get a QB that can and we will...
Go Browns!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
The Cardinals went to the Super Bowl ....... with Kurt Warner at QB.
How did they do before ...... or since?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,632
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,632 |
I think McCoy is a really good backup QB who *might* break out if he had a really great cast and system around him. But he really doesn't have the ceiling to drive the rest of an offense to year after year after year relevancy the way a Manning/ Brady/ Brees/ Rogers/ Roethlisberger (maybe 3 or 4 others) would. I suspect it would always be the other way around with him, we'd have to keep the rest of the O stocked & cocked and look for those stretches where he catches lightning and just hope it happens in the playoffs. That's no way to build a franchise. Some teams go to the playoffs year after year, other teams spike and fade. The teams there every year are largely doing it because they have a consistent and semi-predictable high level of play under center. It's probably the only position on the field you really can't patch over or go with "good enough" and expect to ever win a lombardi trophy. Don't bother with the Dilfer mention, there's always an outlyer. You don't bank on getting lucky. You bank on bonified talent in that position, period. We may not have another better crack at franchise talent in long long time. In my mind RG3 looks every bit the part. You take the pain, you scramble on other positions, you draft the kid and build around his talents.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
We disagree on Colt...You are entitled to your opinion...for this post at least....I am not going to try and dissuade you...this isn't about him....in fact this is about RGIII(well not the thread...but what this decision is based on)
And RGIII is not a Franchise QB in my eyes. He is a Tease. He is a lesser version of Michael Vick. (well he is physically bigger...by a touch...lol). And while Michael Vick is exciting....He is not a franchise QB...And Vick is LIGHTYEARS ahead as a QB than RGIII is.
Vick comes out with all the tools, the speed, the arm, the moves...and He has even made some great decisions in the past years on the field. But in the end....with the SUPER TEAM....what was accomplished????
8-8
In Fact Michael Vick hasn't really thrown the ball all that amazingly at all...He has only had two 3000 yrd seasons. The last 2 and what was their record again this year...his best passing year.....oh yeah...8-8.....and Colt had better passing stats this year than Vick did in 2004, 2005, and 2006 and Colt only played 13 games.....So if you think Colt Sucks....I can only guess your thoughts on Vick....
and as I said before...I see RGIII as a lesser version of Vick coming out of college. He played against lesser competition, he is slightly slower, Vick had a slightly better arm, Vick had much better mechanics (IIRC...I could be wrong here, but I thought his mechanics was a huge selling point) RGIII has some strange mechanics as he throws from several different places....
And RGIII does not fit this team. He does not fit our rigid sytem. He will have to convert to under center. He has to learn a constricting Offense in the way of decisions. And it is an offense that takes away or at least diminishes some of those things that makes him as deisrable a prospect as he is....
RGII is a smart charasmatic kid....part of that worries me....There is an all out publicity blitz to make him the #2 pick in the draft...and he definitely plays his part...and I don't blame him...he is doing what is in his best interests financially....HOWEVER...you don't see any of these other players like Kalil, Blackmon, and Claiborne...all LEGITIMATE #2 selections (for the Rams so to speak) doing this kind of self promotion.....They are concentrating on the football at hand....they are letting their football do the talking....so why such a large amount of self promotion??? I mean if the football on the field is not good enough to speak for on its own?????(I'm just sayin....it's just something that is digging at me like a popcorn kernal stuck in your back teeth)
I honestly think, in the right situation, the kid will probably do well in this league.....but I also think that Cleveland is NOT that situation.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
If Holmgren is such a proclaimed "qb guru" than how come he hasn't gotten more out of McCoy?
If Holmgren has decided McCoy isn't the answer for the long term,then the last 2 years have been wasted under McCoy.
Holmgren is like any other Browns GM,they just go through starting QB's like Augustus Gloop goes through chocalate....Delhomme,McCoy,Wallace...maybe RG3 now..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
And RGIII is not a Franchise QB in my eyes. He is a Tease. He is a lesser version of Michael Vick. (well he is physically bigger...by a touch...lol). And while Michael Vick is exciting....He is not a franchise QB...And Vick is LIGHTYEARS ahead as a QB than RGIII is.
Wow.. I couldn't disagree more.. to start, the difference in speed is like saying a Ferrari is slower than a Lamborgini.. who cares?
In college Vicks "great" year was his junior year where he completed less than 59% of his passes and threw 12 TDs.. RGIII completed 72% of his passes and threw 36 TDs this year.. In Vick's senior year he threw a whopping 8 TDs... 
And competition, when did the ACC become the hot bed of good football competition? How is playing TCU, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, Missouri, and Washington less than what Vick saw in the ACC? 
Vick could play another 10 years and won't be as polished of a passer as RGIII is right now. Vick's accuracy and decision making have always been poor.
Quote:
In Fact Michael Vick hasn't really thrown the ball all that amazingly at all...
He never has and he never will.. he has a canon for an arm so every once in a while he completes the "WOW" pass but he has never been an efficient accurate thrower of the football... ever. He is the prototypical QB that if you make him throw the ball 7-8 times in a possession to score, eventually he will fail. Don't let him break off a long run or throw it over your head has been the way to beat Vick since the day he came into the league and it still works.
Quote:
There is an all out publicity blitz to make him the #2 pick in the draft...and he definitely plays his part...and I don't blame him...he is doing what is in his best interests financially....HOWEVER...you don't see any of these other players like Kalil, Blackmon, and Claiborne...all LEGITIMATE #2 selections (for the Rams so to speak) doing this kind of self promotion.....They are concentrating on the football at hand....they are letting their football do the talking....so why such a large amount of self promotion???
I haven't seen any of this. I have seen the media hyping the guy up, I've seen him do interviews when asked and he did his Heisman tour of Letterman etc.. but I haven't seen any real self-promotion... yea when asked he said he would like to be the #1 pick in the draft.. what is he supposed to say, "I'm not as good as Andrew Luck so don't pick me first."????
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
Here is why I disagree with you about RG3.
There is no comparison between him and Vick.
Vick was a 6' flat, running QB.
Griffin is a (almost) 6'3", passing QB.
Michael Vick threw 342 passes in college, for 3299 years, 21 TDs and 11 INTs.
He started ... what .... 21 games?
He hardly did anything in college. He was drafted on potential.
Robert Griffin III has thrown 1192 passes for 10366 yards. He has thrown 78 TD passes and only 17 INT.
He started 40+ games.
He is experienced, intelligent, (has already graduated with a double degree, and worked on his Masters degree last year) a great leader, has amazing accuracy, especially down the field on deep throws, and a host of things that Vick didn't show.have in college.
Michael Vick's high was 59.2% passing. RG3's low was 59.9%, as a freshmen. His high was last year, completing 72.4% of his passes, and also throwing for 10.68 yards/throw. That's incredible.
Vick declined from his freshman to sophomore years. He went from 59.2% to 54%. He went from 12 TD passes to 8 TD passes.
RG3 has imperoved, in damn near every aspect, each year.
The only real comparison between Vick and RG3 is that they are both black QBs, who can run. That's about it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
The Cardinals went to the Super Bowl ....... with Kurt Warner at QB.
How did they do before ...... or since?
they went 9-7 in 2008 and only made the playoffs because of an epically bad NFC West division
they went 8-8 in 2011 with Kolb and Skelton QBing their team
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
And they made the playoffs ...................
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Quote:
And competition, when did the ACC become the hot bed of good football competition? How is playing TCU, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, Missouri, and Washington less than what Vick saw in the ACC?
Actually it was the Big East...not the ACC
But in 1999 he took them to the National Championship Game....playing #24Virginia, #16 Syracuse, #19 Miami, #22 Boston College, to play #1 Florida State(only loss)
In 2000 he played a lesser schedule losing to #3 Miami(only loss) and beating #16 Clemson in their Bowl Game....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Vick didn't play in the "Art Briles" spread offense....If he had maybe we would have seen a lot more attempts.....David Klingler had gaudy numbers too running that kind of offense....where is he???
Vick was drafted because he led his team to Nat Championship in his first full year (well healthy year) as a starter and darn near did it again the next year......
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Shurmur talks up McCoy
|
|
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
