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And they made the playoffs ...................
i know you will keep pounding sand. that's fine.
but, I did write that they made the playoffs. continue to ignore that they only got that 9-7 record by going 6-0 against an absolutely terrible division to get into the playoffs (including getting smoked 35-14 by the Vikings in wk15 and 47-7 in wk16 by the Pats when there was still some question into who would win the division).
while they went 8-8 this season including beating the much better than 2008 49ers despite their QB play being terrible for the most part (and, Skelton was actually worse than Kolb yet AZ went 6-2 with him at QB).
I completely agree that having an elite QB makes everything so much easier. but, it is not the only factor and using flawed examples to prove your point do not help your cause.
#gmstrong
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But in 1999 he took them to the National Championship Game....playing #24Virginia, #16 Syracuse, #19 Miami, #22 Boston College, to play #1 Florida State(only loss)
And in those games, he was 7-9, 8-16, 11-23, 11-13 and 15-29... yet they ran for 202, 276, 248, 265, and 278 respectively in those games... and the defense gave up 7, 0, 10, and 14 points
So it's a stretch to say that Michael Vick won those games.. If you rush for 250 and give up 10 points do you really need great QB play to win?
yebat' Putin
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I guess that depends on how much of that 250 yards the QB was a part of...LOL
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I guess that depends on how much of that 250 yards the QB was a part of...LOL
The only game he had a significant rushing total was BC... and yes, just the threat of him running probably had an impact but his deficiencies in college followed him to the NFL.. he was a great runner but not a great QB.. not nearly as good a thrower as Newton and I believe it will be proven that he is not nearly as good as RGIII either.
yebat' Putin
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And Drew Brees played in a spread ...... and so did Roethlisberger ...... and Colt McCoy ....... and IIRC, so did Andy Dalton, who slid right into a pro style offense in Cincinnati.
Klingler did put up solid looking numbers .... but was under 60% completion in college ..... and only threw for 7.5 yards/attempt.
Colt McCoy had a 70% completion percentage in college, and an 8.1 yards/attempt average.
So what? I watch RG3 and I see a superstar NFL QB in the making. I watched McCoy, and I hoped he might be an NFL QB. (More in his 1st year than last year)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If Holmgren is such a proclaimed "qb guru" than how come he hasn't gotten more out of McCoy?
If Holmgren has decided McCoy isn't the answer for the long term,then the last 2 years have been wasted under McCoy.
Holmgren is like any other Browns GM,they just go through starting QB's like Augustus Gloop goes through chocalate....Delhomme,McCoy,Wallace...maybe RG3 now..
I wanted to comment on this only because I have mentioned it before and I dont thnk Holmgren the GM is a QB guru he is an excellent coaching Guru who knows how to use QB's .
He didnt get Farve Wolf did. I dont think he has ever being a GM drafted a QB worth squat.
Tom Heckert is the guy you need to be focusing on because in the end this is going to be his call on what we do. Mike even said in one of the pressers Tom is a car salesman so I let him do his thing. The only thing Tom cant do is pull the trigger on a trade without Mikes approval as last year Mike said Tom came to me and said I can make this Trade I think it's to good to pass up. 2 Years ago Mike saying "I asked 'Can I have my QB now?' " "Mangini saying "Can he play Guard" laughter all around.
Thats why I hate hearing stuff like Mike said he would have given up this or that because to me unless Heckert is on board with it, it wouldnt happen. They dont have that type of relationship.
Now some my disagree and thats fine but I just cant see Mike walking up to Tom in the war room or just before the draft saying "Well you can go home, I just traded all our picks for player X or Tom step aside Im going to call the shots here for a minute."
They will both have to be on board with any move we make and to an extent the coach as well. Thats how the new FO of the Browns is built to run.
Shurmur says he wont change his system to fit players. Tom wont draft players that wont fit his system. Holmgren wont force Tom to draft players knowing they wont fit Shurmurs system.
So if Shurmur is totally on board with RG3
If Heckert has him listed as higher then #4 on his draft board
and if Holmgren agrees with the cost to move up RG3 will be here next year.
If none of those 3 things are true then he MAY be a Cleveland Brown next year.
Finally If RG3 is listed as 5th on Heckerts board RG3 wont be here.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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You guys are getting all worked up for nothing.
If Washington REALLY wants RG3 they will pay whatever it takes. Snyder will not be outbid.
We'll get 3 quality players in the top 37 picks and be better for it. Meanwhile, Washington will manage to finish 3rd in their division for the foreseeable future.
JMHG(uess)
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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You guys are getting all worked up for nothing.
If Washington REALLY wants RG3 they will pay whatever it takes. Snyder will not be outbid.
We'll get 3 quality players in the top 37 picks and be better for it. Meanwhile, Washington will manage to finish 3rd in their division for the foreseeable future.
JMHG(uess)
That is it,in a nutshell.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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It is hard to build through the draft when you are talking about giving up the value of 3 first rounds draft choices to move up 2 spots. The reason we have shown little interest in pursuing a trade is because we have little interest in pursuing a trade.
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Quote:
You guys are getting all worked up for nothing.
If Washington REALLY wants RG3 they will pay whatever it takes. Snyder will not be outbid.
We'll get 3 quality players in the top 37 picks and be better for it. Meanwhile, Washington will manage to finish 3rd in their division for the foreseeable future.
JMHG(uess)
I agree some folks are really caught up (emotionally) in the moment.
If Washington happens to bid higher then we are willing to go, then the flip side of that scenario is ... that we are going to have better options then if they didn't.
History tells us that the team who gives up multiple picks to move up 'usually' ends up with the short end of the stick.
The Lesson here is that one player no matter how good is worth the price you pay.
Yet this is being spun as being a different case ... yeah right.
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It is hard to build through the draft when you are talking about giving up the value of 3 first rounds draft choices to move up 2 spots. The reason we have shown little interest in pursuing a trade is because we have little interest in pursuing a trade.
Possible, but as mentioned before, we'd be absolute idiots to tip our hand this far away from the draft.
I think it was actually Jim Haslett who popped off and spilled the beans for the Redskins. D'oh! Hehe.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think it makes sense for the Skins to try to force the trade now. we have the ammo and they want Peyton/Flynn if they miss out (and may not have that option if they wait)
we sit w/ the best ammo, so we don't need to tip our hand and should call their bluff if the rams say they are dealing now or never.
#gmstrong
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To be honest, one of the biggest reasons why I think it will be the skins that moves up is because of Shannahan and Fisher being very close personal friends. If Shannahan wants him, I think he and Fisher will sit down and find a way to make it happen. Probably see a player or two thrown in along with picks.
We saw the same thing happen with Mangini and Rex Ryan. It is hard to compete in that situation and it is another reason why 99% of trades are made between guys that have a pretty strong relationship. It happened last year with the Falcons and Browns, I remember Heckert talking about his relationship with the Falcons Gm is what made the deal happen.
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And here I thought it was because tannehill was the guy that our gm really coveted.
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Mangini got all those trades done with the Jets because we got fleeced on every single one. Can't imagine the Jets turning down any of those trades.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Mangini got all those trades done with the Jets because we got fleeced on every single one. Can't imagine the Jets turning down any of those trades.
I'm making alot of assumptions here, but had we not gotten fleeced in the Sanchez trade (aka gotten a 1st round pick the next year) I would assume we probably would of used it to trade up and get Bradford...
Ironic, no?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Here's the thing though ........
We could have wound up with Sanchez.
We didn't.
He would have been an abject failure in Cleveland. He walked into about as perfect a situation for a rookie QB as possible in NY ...... and struggled. He has struggled since.
I was so glad when we traded out of that pick ....... and what we got is almost secondary. No one has to wonder what he would look like "if only" the rest of the team was any good ....... because he's had exceptional talent surrounding him.
He is the epitome of what has been discussed so much this off-season regarding the Browns .......... the QB who might win if everything is perfect .....
Except that he hasn't.
That type of QB usually doesn't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Here's the thing though ........
We could have wound up with Sanchez.
We didn't.
He would have been an abject failure in Cleveland. He walked into about as perfect a situation for a rookie QB as possible in NY ...... and struggled. He has struggled since.
I was so glad when we traded out of that pick ....... and what we got is almost secondary. No one has to wonder what he would look like "if only" the rest of the team was any good ....... because he's had exceptional talent surrounding him.
He is the epitome of what has been discussed so much this off-season regarding the Browns .......... the QB who might win if everything is perfect .....
Except that he hasn't.
That type of QB usually doesn't.
As much as I believe in RG3, I don't think there is anyway to know if he's no better than Sanchez.. this time however, we'd have to give up a kings ransom to get him.... Sanchez would have essentially just fallin in our laps.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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As much as I believe in RG3, I don't think there is anyway to know if he's no better than Sanchez.. this time however, we'd have to give up a kings ransom to get him.... Sanchez would have essentially just fallin in our laps.
To me thats like saying I'm not sure if RG3 is better than Colt McCoy.. 
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There is no comparison between RG3 and Sanchez. RG3 has a stronger arm. He is more accurate. He has better mobility. He has more college experience. He might even be taller than Sanchez.  lol I never liked Sanchez's game when he was at USC. Nothing about him said "special" to me. He looked like an average QB in a great situation. Plus, Sanchez's entire college career consisted of 16 starts, 487 pass attempts, and slightly less than 4000 yards. I do not trust QBs who have no track record, and I did not trust Sanchez, even if he did come out of a pro set offense. RG3 has a long and expansive college history to explore ...... and he just keeps getting better and better. He improved year by year, and improved specific skills as his career has progressed. I honestly don't see any comparison between the 2.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
As much as I believe in RG3, I don't think there is anyway to know if he's no better than Sanchez.. this time however, we'd have to give up a kings ransom to get him.... Sanchez would have essentially just fallin in our laps.
To me thats like saying I'm not sure if RG3 is better than Colt McCoy..
I didn't say that so it sounds like you have that problem..Not me
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
There is no comparison between RG3 and Sanchez.
RG3 has a stronger arm.
He is more accurate.
He has better mobility.
He has more college experience.
He might even be taller than Sanchez. lol
I never liked Sanchez's game when he was at USC. Nothing about him said "special" to me. He looked like an average QB in a great situation.
Plus, Sanchez's entire college career consisted of 16 starts, 487 pass attempts, and slightly less than 4000 yards. I do not trust QBs who have no track record, and I did not trust Sanchez, even if he did come out of a pro set offense.
RG3 has a long and expansive college history to explore ...... and he just keeps getting better and better. He improved year by year, and improved specific skills as his career has progressed.
I honestly don't see any comparison between the 2.
Yes, he seems to have all of that,,, and the one thing you ALWAYS fail to accept.. He can fail..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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To me thats like saying I'm not sure if RG3 is better than Colt McCoy..
Hot...IS HE?
No way am I going to declare RGIII is better than McCoy at this time.
RGII has proven he is a workout warrior...but he refused to do the most important QB exercise at the combine...he didn't throw the ball.
Everyone seems to assume RGIII is going to perform in the NFL as he did at Baylor...WRONG !
Griffin thrived in an offense designed for him, where he ran the ball 14 times per game. Griffin is not going to be running the ball anywhere near 14 times per game in the NFL.
Take that away from Griffin and now he must survive on his passing ability. Griffin's passing ability is an unknown because of the quality of defenses he played against in the Big 12.
In the NFL, Griffin will face defenses better than any he has seen in college. Instead of seeing WRs wide open like he did in college, Griffin will be looking at WRs who might be open by "a yard" and he will have to thread the needle to complete a pass.
Griffin did not throw at the combine for a reason and he did give several excuses. We can look for Griffin to give a safe performance at his pro day, with WRs running rehearsed routes at 3/4 speed without any defense involved. It will be a dog and pony show that tells teams little about Griffin's accuracy under NFL conditions.
The workouts that will matter most are the ones the individual teams will have him to run. Fans don't get to see them but NFL teams are going to make those workouts much more realistic and NFL like.
We can look for the hype to continue, but where Griffin lands in the NFL, will depend on whether he performs well in those individual workouts.
The key to Griffins success in the NFL won't be any different than it has been for those QBs who played before Griffin arrived. Griffin's success will depend on the supporting cast his team provides.
...the quality of his WRs
...the protection his offensive line provides
...and the running game
Some things never change...such as the formula for winning in the NFL...it takes a team of 11 working together...not just the QB.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I would say see YTownBrownsFan's post..
Griffin throwing at the combine wouldn't have made a difference.. scouts could still say the same thing. As mayock says.. CHECK THE TAPE.. lol.. regardless of the defense he played... he did well. If it were that easy all young QB's would sign with a Big 12 team and do well.. all of them don't.
the guy could fail. the qb position is a position where you are more likely to fail than succeed. so it could go either way for the young man. I think he will do great in the league though.
Teams are more prepared for him though thanks to a guy named Mike Vick, so he has that aspect going AGAINST him in the fact that teams don't play your typical defense going against a mobile strong armed QB. This is what will show to the world whether or not he will be successful or not.
In regards to Colt.. again.. from a physical standpoint.. Griffin has him beat hands down in just about every aspect. One thing I like about Colt though is I think he has the ability to overcome his shortcomings in effort. I wouldn't mind riding it out with him one more season to see what he has. I'm really looking for that ONE BIG game from him though. Brady Quinn had it against Detroit one year where he threw for crazy numbers.. I'd like Colt to do the same.. although I would take a win over numbers anyday.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
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I really dont think our supporting cast is as bad as you make them out to be.
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He looked like an average QB in a great situation.
So the team around him made him better?
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Griffin did not throw at the combine for a reason and he did give several excuses. We can look for Griffin to give a safe performance at his pro day, with WRs running rehearsed routes at 3/4 speed without any defense involved. It will be a dog and pony show that tells teams little about Griffin's accuracy under NFL conditions.
While I agree that Pro-Day workouts are done in the most comfortable setting for a college QB, I'm not so sure the WR's are gonna run 3/4 speed. You'd think that would hurt the WR running them as well as the QB.
Also, while RG3 didn't throw at the combine, I don't think Andrew Luck threw either. So he's using the same excuses.
Quote:
The workouts that will matter most are the ones the individual teams will have him to run. Fans don't get to see them but NFL teams are going to make those workouts much more realistic and NFL like.
We can look for the hype to continue, but where Griffin lands in the NFL, will depend on whether he performs well in those individual workouts.
This I agree with. I expect RG3 will come in here, have a personal workout and a lengthier interview.
While we are interested in moving up, nothing is set in stone. And rightfully so. This guy needs to be heavily vetted before we possibly dump our 2 1st round draft picks and this year's 2nd (or next year's 2nd and 3rd), which I think might end up being what we pay for him if he's the guy.
A fifteen minute interview and a 40 yard dash just isn't gonna do it......... Especially since Heckert has been out
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Quote:
Quote:
He looked like an average QB in a great situation.
So the team around him made him better?
Those USC teams were like the Browns playing Ignatius.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Griffin's passing ability is an unknown because of the quality of defenses he played against in the Big 12.
The defenses he played against are as good as the defenses that Luck played against.
yebat' Putin
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Here's the thing though ........
We could have wound up with Sanchez.
We didn't.
He would have been an abject failure in Cleveland. He walked into about as perfect a situation for a rookie QB as possible in NY ...... and struggled. He has struggled since.
I was so glad when we traded out of that pick ....... and what we got is almost secondary.
What we got is almost secondary?
That's even dumber than 'Brian Daboll did a great job in Miami'.
That draft set us back years. It was arguably the biggest front office blunder we've had since our return (and we've had plenty).
Your crush on the Mangini regime really produces some head scratching comments.
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He might even be taller than Sanchez. lol
Yea, but who put up more in the bench?
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Quote:
Mangini got all those trades done with the Jets because we got fleeced on every single one. Can't imagine the Jets turning down any of those trades.
I'm making alot of assumptions here, but had we not gotten fleeced in the Sanchez trade (aka gotten a 1st round pick the next year) I would assume we probably would of used it to trade up and get Bradford...
Ironic, no?
and been stuck with the last of the overpaid rookie QBs who had a worse year than Colt
also, if it wasn't for Colt getting into some games his rookie year and looking halfway decent, then there is a decent chance we would have Locker, Ponder, or Gabbert on our roster instead of trading down and pocketing the #22 this year. if we do get RGIII, then Colt is partially to thank for it.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
There is no comparison between RG3 and Sanchez.
RG3 has a stronger arm.
He is more accurate.
He has better mobility.
He has more college experience.
He might even be taller than Sanchez. lol
I never liked Sanchez's game when he was at USC. Nothing about him said "special" to me. He looked like an average QB in a great situation.
Plus, Sanchez's entire college career consisted of 16 starts, 487 pass attempts, and slightly less than 4000 yards. I do not trust QBs who have no track record, and I did not trust Sanchez, even if he did come out of a pro set offense.
RG3 has a long and expansive college history to explore ...... and he just keeps getting better and better. He improved year by year, and improved specific skills as his career has progressed.
I honestly don't see any comparison between the 2.
Yes, he seems to have all of that,,, and the one thing you ALWAYS fail to accept.. He can fail..
Geesh .........
ANY PLAYER CAN FAIL ...... and in fact, most of the players in this coming draft will fail to make a lasting and substantial impact in the NFL.
Look back at the draft just 5 years ago.
I would look at round 1 ...... and everyone that wants to can do the same, but I would appraise it as follows:
6 players were great or well above average. (Johnson, Thomas, Willis, Revis, Bowe and Timmons)
17 are average NFL players, most being starters.
9 were below average to bust ...... leaving their original team, benched, or otherwise not contributing at all as a 1st rounder should.
That means that almost 1/3 of the first round was of no help to their drafting team just 5 years later. (again, if anyone want to look and decide for themselves, please feel free to do so)
ANY player can fail. Any. Luck could fail. So could RG3. So could Blackmon, Richardson, and so on. In the NFL, every player is one wrong step away from a career ending injury.
Any player can fail, and many do. I would guess that most players taken in a draft are either out of the league, or have been cut by their original team within 4 years of being drafted. (that will be effected now with the new CBA and shorter rookie contracts, as most will be UFA within 4 years)
Any player can fail. No college player is a lock to be a great NFL player.
Having established that, all we can do is look at what makes players in the NFL successful, combined with how the rules impact players at the NFL level, and similar factors, and try to apply that to the evaluation process.
When all of that is taken into account, I think that RG3 will be a superstar. I said it before he got all of the national hype. I have explained why I believe that he will be a superstar.
Could I be wrong, and could he be a bust? Sure, that could happen. However, given his demeanor, talent, physical ability, and intelligence, I don't think it will happen.
Could he be a bust? Sure. Is it likely? IMHO, No.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Geesh .........
ANY PLAYER CAN FAIL ...... and in fact, most of the players in this coming draft will fail to make a lasting and substantial impact in the NFL.
I recognize that.. The difference between you and me is, I'm not willing to bet the ranch on one guy.. No matter how much I like that guy.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And I think that you have to occasionally take a chance to get a great talent, especially at the most important position on the field. Hell, just last year the Falcons threw a Hail Mary to get a WR.  To me, that was insane, because WR isn't a position that you should give up multiple 1st rounders for, unless you're going to get a guy like Calvin Johnson in return .... and I'd have to think about it even then. I really think that the only 2 positions I would sell the farm for are a guy I see as a franchise QB, or one of those "once in a lifetime" type pass rushers. That's it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I can't/won't argue that there are times to take a chance.. THere always has been, always will be.
What I'm saying is, the price for RG just might get to high..
You no longer have to sell me on RG... I get it, damn the kid looks like the real deal.
The problem for me is, the price.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The problem for me is, the price.
Well name your price homie
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Problem with this debate is the same as it was when that annoying group was screaming you have to give up 3 firsts to get luck. There are no more QBs worth drafting. Barkley goes out and outplays him. Griffin goes on to have his stellar year and that crowd mostly moved on from Luck is the only guy, to we have to sell everything to get Griffin. He is the only one that can lead us to the promised land.
Hell RG3 would probably get a lot more love around here if his supporters weren't so freaking annoying with you are stupid if you dont want this kid crap.
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Hell, just last year the Falcons threw a Hail Mary to get a WR. To me, that was insane, because
I may be wrong, but wasn't the general consensus last year that the falcons were a legit playoff team - all set at qb, etc.....just needed a big time receiver? Maybe I'm confused.....but if that WAS the case - you know, a team that was set but just needed a play maker at rec. to take that "next step", I can see a team making that trade.
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that crowd mostly moved on from Luck is the only guy, to we have to sell everything to get Griffin. He is the only one that can lead us to the promised land.
Hell RG3 would probably get a lot more love around here if his supporters weren't so freaking annoying with you are stupid if you dont want this kid crap.
Geesh, Mourg, so touchy.
My problems have been that people are basing all these criticisms of him based on false pretenses as I laid out above. If you're going to be critical of the guy, then base your criticisms on truths. If people don't want to trade up for a player because they want the picks, they are entitled to that preference. If people want to say that Tannehill is a better prospect, then give the reasons. But all the manufactured holes in his game people have been spouting on here since October/November are ridiculous.
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