DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Green Bay not expected to tag Flynn

No it's not all McCoy's fault...And not one person has ever said it...

You're a broken flippen record...

SOME of us are smart and savy enuff to see McCoy for what he IS...Even with an upgraded supporting cast...And that includes this entire FO and Coaching Staff...Cause make no mistake about it...We wouldn't side step the issue every time it's brought up and we DON'T commit to McCoy as the future of this team...And we're HOT on the trail of 2 HIGH pick QB's in Griffin and Tannehill...

Not our problem YOU can't see it...But keep ranting...

And BTW...It's really annoying that u have to ADDRESS the poster every sentence u say...

Toad.......
Toad.......
Toad......

We all KNOW who you're talking to...

toad...you skipped this...

Reasons the Browns didn't have a winning team in 2011?

Just year two of the rebuilding process
Rebuild might be at 50%
New, "first time" HC/OC
New playbook, the WCO
NFL lockout, no contact with coaching staff
No formal workouts in the offseason
Hillis strep throat
Steinie down and out
Rookie LG,
RG inexperienced, second year in the NFL
RT Pashos, Hicks, Cousins, nuff said
39 sacks and 83 qb hits
43 dropped passes..Browns receivers ranked #1 in the NFL in dropped passes
Browns 31st in NFL rushing for 3.7 yds per carry
Ryan Pontbriand

Even with this excellent supporting cast
...the Browns passing game ranked 24th in the NFL
...McCoy ranked 22nd in total passing yds
...McCoy ranked 25, tied with Josh Freeman in QB rating
...McCoy ranked 26th in completion percentage, just behind Flacco
...McCoy ranked 22nd in TD passes
...the Browns rushing game ranked 28th in the NFL

toad, you tell me, is it all McCoy's fault?


After reading all this, do you now understand, "too soon to tell"?

Toad...you seem to be upset that I refuse to dump on McCoy, yet I will not commit to McCoy as being the best choice as the Browns QB. If you want to know the reasons "why" I refuse to kick McCoy to curb...read list above, again.

As fans, we have but a fraction of the information needed to "properly" assess any player, let alone the QB...
...we don't know the play
...we don't know the qb reads
...we don't know the wr reads
...we don't know the options built into a play, based on those reads
...we don't even have access to the all22 film that is needed to properly assess a players performance on any given play.
...we don't know a players physical condition..is he playing hurt?

Yet, we have some fans who believe they "do" know it all, even when they lack the information above.

As for my not committing to McCoy...I realize I don't have the information needed to make the call on McCoy. Now if you want to hold that against me, nothing I can do about it and honestly, I don't care what you think of my position.

But, I know there are people working for the Browns that "do" have access to "all" the information the fans do not have.

I'm not going to pretend to know more than Holmgren, Heckert, coaches and support staff who are more informed, with access to information I will never see and with tons more experience at assessing talent.

...I defer to those I listed above.

Now if that makes me a "fence sitter", in your opinion...oh well.

'Wisest is he who knows he does not know'


toad...you seem to be upset because I have not fallen in love with RGIII.

...he is a talented young man who may or may not be good QB at the NFL level. Again, I defer to those within the Browns organization, who have the job of judging talent. If they decide RG is the QB of the future, I will support him.

toad...I have offered other options, should the Browns decide to add another QB..i.e., Flynn, Campbell. You also supported the idea of adding Campbell.

I have commented on Tannehill as a possibility, if the Browns are looking to draft a QB. I have watched video of Tannehill and believe he has a talent rarely seen in QBs. Favre had it and so did Marino...the ability to recognize the target and get the ball out of his hand quicker than any QB in this draft.

I would not necessarily call it a quick release...but a quick read and release.

Tannehill does not do it on every pass play, but he does it often enough to know he has the ability to get the ball on target quicker than most QBs.

My greatest concern about trading #4, #22 and possibly the #37 (or more), to get to the #2 draft slot...is the damage that this "draft give away" does to the rebuilding process.

There is no way around it, instead of filling the Browns offensive and defensive needs with blue chip talent from this draft, the Browns will be forced to look for WR and Oline needs in the later rounds, where the talent level drops off. The #4, 22 and 37 draft picks will likely be starters..it's like removing 3 blue chip starters from the offense and defense.

Some believe turning to free agency fixes everything, should the Browns do trade away their 4, 22, 37. Let me remind everyone of some of our recent free agent additions...Pashos was a free agent fix...Sheldon Brown is a free agent fix...many of the Browns back ups are free agent fixes.

The negative impact such a trade would have on the rebuilding process cannot be denied nor can it be overcome with late round picks and free agents. Those are bandaid fixes for the most part, meant to get the franchise by until those needs can be address via the draft.

Potentially, the rebuilding via the draft process will be stalled for two years.

All that for one player...a QB who may or may not be the star some dream of. There were many who thought Matt Lienhart would be "the guy" to take over for Warner...many thought JaMarcus Russell would be "the guy" for the Raiders..the jury is still out on Mike Vick...the jury is still out on Vince Young...Alex Smith was considered a bust until the 49ers finally gave the guy a supporting cast, proving that Smith nor any QB can succeed in the NFL without a quality supporting cast.

Simply put, the cost and risk to giving away the farm for a QB is just too much, IMO.

mac, You still sit in judgement on everyone else while refusing to make any commitments of your own.

mac, who do you want to be our QB next year, and why? No equivocation, no rambling non-answers, no evasions ........ no prevarication ...... no fence sitting ......... . just a simple answer to a simple question.

mac, If you can run down a list of 21 reasons why things are not McCoy's fault .....but then state that it wasn't his fault ..... but that you wouldn't commit to him ....... but also wouldn't commit to anyone else ........

Can you simply answer a couple of simple questions mac?

mac, Who do you want to be our QB next year, and why? What would make your (mac's) choice the best option, IYO, for the Browns?

mac, Who would you take at 4, and why?

I am betting that you, mac, will never actually answer, because if you never directly answer, you can never be wrong. It's easy to be right when you are on every side imaginable on any issue or question. It is rather cowardly to run down other peoples' positions while hiding your own though. Will you be brave, mac, or will you, mac, hide behind half answers and semantics, pretending to answer a question with a long winded response that ultimately, mac, says nothing about the matter at hand. Surely you, mac, have enough football knowledge to have formed soem ind of opinion. You certainly appear to defend McCoy with your reasoning, but mac, you then run and hide from any idea that he might be the right guy.

So again, let me ask you just one direct question, with a follow up type rider.

mac, who do you want to be the QB for the Browns next year, and why?

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toad...you skipped this...

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Damn right I did.

I've done my time debating McCoy. THAT particular ship has come, dropped anchor, taken on fuel, and sailed away, away, AWAY.

I didn't dive into this discussion to talk about him.

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Now if that makes me a "fence sitter", in your opinion...oh well.

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No, 5000 words spent re-re-re-re-re-re-rehashing old arguments without ever using one simple one to answer a simple question makes you a fence-sitter.

All you had to do was use one of these two words: Yes or no. You didn't. You deflected, you spun, you admonished, and you denied, but the one thing you refused to do is to answer the question which has been posed to you by numerous posters.

Thanks for telling me what I wanted to know.

Unless Washington does the unthinkable and makes a trade before FA starts (I have no doubt that our FO wouldn't even THINK of it..)

I almost want us to sign Flynn now, call up every other team and say the number 4 slot is now up for auction, no need to go all the way up to 2!

Sign Flynn to a nice contract similar to the one Kolb got, in the point that while he's getting paid for this next season as starter, if we com to find he's not the guy after it gives us an out...

Trade down a few spots, pick up Richardson, get a WR, a RT some Defense...

Yeah. I like this.

FLYNN TO WIN!

The Vikings have already said they would love to sell their pick, so there's nothing to gain by going that route.

What I got out of that post is that if we're jonesing to trade down, either St. Louis or Minnesota is screwed (more likely Minnesota as St. Louis will just pick Kalil, and folks would rather trade up to us at 4 instead of 3.

It's been said before, but our decisions in this draft are gonna be huge and will affect many teams.

It's possible, though I didn't read it that way man.

Here's something more pertinent regarding the Browns and Flynn..

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The Cleveland Browns are one of three teams with a top-10 draft pick that have had “very preliminary talks” with the St. Louis Rams about trading up for the No. 2 pick to draft Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported yesterday.

The Browns have the fourth and 22nd picks in the first round, and Browns coach Pat Shurmur said at the NFL combine that the Browns are up for anything with the picks, including a move up to No. 2 .

The other two teams that have made inquiries are the Washington Redskins at No. 6 and Miami Dolphins at No. 8.

The Redskins, believed to be the early front-runners, are prepared to surrender two first-round picks — their No. 6 this year and next year’s first-rounder — along with several other early- to mid-round picks, the Washington Post reported.

The Rams have also had informal talks with several teams out the top 10. Possible suitors could be the Kansas City Chiefs at No. 11 and Seattle Seahawks at No. 12.

No formal offers have yet been made, the Post-Dispatch reported. Some of the interested teams will fall out of running if they acquire a veteran quarterback through free agency or trade. The Redskins might decide to pursue Peyton Manning, and the Dolphins have been linked to both Manning and Green Bay backup Matt Flynn.

The Browns are not expected to make a big pitch for Flynn, who will command a huge salary and is linked to Miami, where former Packers offensive coordinator Joe Philbin is the new head coach.

If the Browns decide to trade up for Griffin, they might have to surrender both first-round selections along with another pick, depending on the competing offers.

Rams coach Jeff Fisher and general manager Les Snead made it clear at the combine that the Rams are ready to deal.

“We have a lot of options and we’re going to be prepared to do whatever,” Fisher said. “It's a great opportunity, and it will define the immediate and, hopefully, the long-term future of this franchise.”

Talks are expected to heat up at the NFL owners meetings March 24-28.

The Browns also are considering Texas A&M quarterback Ryan Tannehill.

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YT...after two years, do you believe Holmgren's strategy of rebuilding the Browns via the draft, is working?

DnD...specificly, what did the Browns do that leads you to believe that the rebuild via the draft philosophy, is working.

What proof do you have that rebuilding via the draft is working?

YT...after two years, do you believe Holmgren's strategy of rebuilding the Browns via the draft, is working?

Done answering your questions till you answer mine.

That's only fair.

Answer my question about the QBs, and I'll be happy to answer your questions. Don't, and I'm done answering yours for the time being.

YT...give me one question...

...then answer mine...

After two years, do you believe Holmgren's strategy of rebuilding the Browns via the draft, is working?

I already asked my question.

Look it up.

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mac, who do you want to be the QB for the Browns next year, and why?

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The option I like best is adding Flynn in free agency.

Flynn has 4 yrs of experience in the WCO and will not require a year or two of teaching like a rookie qb would.

I'm not a fan of giving a starting job to anyone and that would include Flynn. Allow McCoy and Flynn to compete for the starting job, which should bring out the best in both players.

The Browns could cut Wallace and use that money to help offset the expense of signing Flynn, making the cap hit a little more palatable.

Flynn has shown he can play (in the NFL) at a high level within a WCO which makes the chances of him being a bust less likely than an inexperienced rookie QB, who has never played against NFL talent.

The Browns have some of the best talent evaluators (of qbs) in the NFL and they will put Flynn under the microscope. But if the talent evaluators are wrong about Flynn, the Browns have not lost draft #4, 22, or more in draft picks...just cash.

I'm not going to pretend that my ability to judge talent is better than the Browns. This is an option that makes sense to me, if the Browns feel the need to add a QB.

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Flynn has shown he can play (in the NFL) at a high level within a WCO which makes the chances of him being a bust less likely than an inexperienced rookie QB, who has never played against NFL talent.

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He also hasn't played against any Defense that has had a chance to study game tape to see his tendencies...

U r so fixated on these draft picks it's actually funny...

We GET #2 instead of #4...

We lose ONE of 22 or 37...We won't lose BOTH...

We lose another pick or 2 of the plethora we have...

We give the reigns to a QB for the next 10+ years and hope it pans out...Same goes for Flynn...Problem is...RGIII is ten times the physical QB that Flynn would ever dream of being...

U must think Flynn's the next Late Round Brady...That's laughable...

Well, we could have Dalton WITH that ATL tradedown and without losing that 3rd we invested trading up for Taylor...but we never looked for a QB in that draft because we already committed to Colt...and all those QBs you mentioned are more talented than Colt was coming out of Texas...that QB class was clearly superior to the 2010 one: Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton > Bradford, Clausen, Tebow, McCoy imho

As most know I really liked Gabbert but said on draft day that I would have taken that offer from ATL too...it was simply too good to pass up (1,1,2,4,4)

Keeping Mangini and handing Colt the job do not look good on Holmgren's Pres résumé right now (He drafted Colt and Heckert won't PO his boss after 9 months into the job, nobody would)....that's my opinion but I just don't trust the Walrus to make smart long term moves when it comes to people, imho he's too loyal, too much a coach still...he has a good idea of a winning philosophy and how to implement that otoh...that's the good part..he got Heckert in here, he hired Coaches who are on the same page, he gives big contracts to own players who produce...I consider all that to be a winning formular long term but people's decsions get in the way to speed up that process...again, only my humble opinion

fair enough. i'd rather have Tannehill than Locker/Gabbert/Ponder, so I'm actually happy how it worked out (and would much rather have RGIII). really shows how few truly good QB prospects come into the league too.

and with Dalton, he really struggled his last 6 games (4TDs, 4INTs, >200yds/game, YPA ~6), so I am not sure he would have done much better if we had him either (and w/o AJ as his safety valve)

Thank you for (finally) answering my question. We'll agree to disagree on Flynn. It will be interesting to see how he does, wherever he lands.

As far as whether I believe that Holmgren's strategy of building through the draft is working or not ........ yes, and no.

I think that we have made huge strides on defense, using mainly draft picks to improve that side of the ball. We have also used trades/free agency to add players. However, on defense, I would have to say that drafted players have had the bigger impact overall.

On offense, there are few Heckert draftees contributing. McCoy starts, but has been ineffective. We have no drafted RBs contributing, as Hardesty has been a walking IR trip. Cameron at TE looked sluggish to me. Little looks like he might be something down the road. Pinkston looks like a keeper.

So really, right now I would say that there are 2 keepers on offense from Heckert's drafts, Little and Pinkston, and several question marks.

Overall, I think that we could have made some moves that would have helped on offense in last year's free agent market, but the team chose not to. I can understand why, as they wanted to see what they had, and also build up supplemental picks for this year's draft.

When we talk of a philosophy of "building through the draft", I don't believe that they mean exclusively through the draft. We can always add a player here or there, but the bulk of the team building will be done with drafted players. I agree with the philosophy. has it worked so far? Yes, and no. It's still really early, and Heckert has only 2 drafts under his belt.

So, do I believe that the philosophy of building through the draft is working? Yes, and no. It hasn't shown up on the scoreboard yet, or in the standings, but I see the emergence of a physical defense that did exactly as the Phil Taylor quote in DjangoBrown's signature says, and we saw big Ben "go down" quite a bit when we played them. That's encouraging.

If this was the final product, then I would say that it isn't good enough. However, I do think that this team is closer than it's been in a long, long time. I see us needing pieces instead of whole units. I see available cap space that can be used to fill in some holes. I see a draft that was capably worked to add picks that can either be used to draft players, or to trade for a special player.

In that regard, then I would say "yes, it is working". It better show up on the field this year though.

Back on topic: Prisco's take on Flynn:

After Further Review: One good start doesn't mean Flynn is worth big deal - NFL - CBSSports.com News, Rumors, Scores, Stats, Fantasy Advice
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/17523...-worth-big-deal

One of the hottest free agents on the market this year will be a quarterback who was a seventh-round draft pick and has thrown 132 passes in his four seasons in the NFL.

That résumé begs this question: Is Green Bay Packers backup Matt Flynn worth a big-money deal after sitting behind Aaron Rodgers?

That's the question many scouts and personnel people are pondering as we close in on free agency. Do you pay him a big deal based on potential, rather than production?

"In my opinion, he's ready to be an NFL starter," Packers coach Mike McCarthy said last week at the scouting combine. "If I was a club and was looking for a good young quarterback, he's definitely someone I'd talk to."

Several teams are expected to consider making a move on Flynn. The Miami Dolphins and Cleveland Browns are two of them. Both will run systems similar to what Flynn ran in Green Bay.

After studying him closely, I think that's important.

I wanted to get a better gauge on Flynn, so I popped in the tape from his season-ending start against the Detroit Lions. The numbers said he was sensational.


The tape said he was just good.

Flynn threw for a franchise-record 480 yards and six TDs in a 45-41 victory over the Lions, with the winning touchdown pass coming in the final two minutes.

Those numbers were a bit deceiving. He got 80 yards on a screen pass for a touchdown to Ryan Grant, which happened to be a great call that was blocked perfectly against a blitz. He also got a long touchdown to Jordy Nelson on a play that was a "free" one since the Lions had jumped offside. That meant there was little risk on the long throw.

That doesn't mean he didn't do some good things. He certainly did. There were times where I had to make sure it wasn't No. 12 (Rodgers) behind center rather than No. 10 (Flynn). He certainly mimics Rodgers in the way he hands the ball off, plays out his fakes and gets into his drops.

But the similarity ends when he throws the football. Rodgers has a rocket. Flynn's arm is decent -- not great.

It was a windy day when he played the Lions, so that had some impact on his throws, but I just didn't see the big arm. That would concern me if I were considering paying him.

There was some good and bad about his performance that day. Here's how I saw him in that game in a handful of categories.

Field vision

Seeing the field is something he did impressively. On several throws, I could see him look to the right or to the left, and then come back to the opposite side to make a completion.

On a third-and-4 at the Detroit 20 in the first quarter, Flynn showed off his ability to influence a defense with his eyes. After taking the snap in the shotgun, he looked to his right where he had two receivers. Neither one was open, so in an instant he spun his head to the left and saw tight end Jermichael Finley in the middle of the field beating safety Amari Spievey. He hit him with a strike for 13 yards and a first down.

That type of field vision was something he seemed to have a good feel for. There were other times where he looked to the middle and came off of that receiver to make a throw to the outside.

Grade: A

Arm strength

I mentioned earlier that his arm wasn't great, but good enough. On his second snap of the game, he tried to throw deep to Nelson but the ball fluttered and fell short. The wind could have influenced that throw, although it was hard to tell. On the next play, he was sacked, fumbled and the Lions recovered.

But he did make two good throws deep for big plays that seemed to show his arm was capable of making all the throws.

The most impressive came on the final drive when he hit James Jones for a 40-yard play to set up the winning score. It was a play in which Flynn took the snap, looked to the middle first and then came off the middle receiver to the right, where he hit Jones with a perfect over-the-shoulder pass for a first-and-goal at the 6.

Earlier in the game, he made a dart-like throw to Nelson for a first down in the middle of the field.

The flip side is his lone interception, which shows some arm-strength issues. On that play, he took a snap out of the shotgun on first-and-10 from the Lions 38, faked a handoff to the back and looked for an instant to the right, before coming back to try and hit Nelson on a slant on the left side of the formation.

Lions corner Alphonso Smith, playing off-man, read it and jumped the route. With Rodgers, the ball gets there in time. With Flynn, it didn't and Smith picked it off.

Grade: B-

Mobility

Flynn did a nice job moving around to escape pressure, which was plentiful at times.

On a third-and-6 from his 46 in the first quarter, he took a snap in the shotgun with four receivers, two to each side. The Lions were in man coverage with a single-high safety. Flynn read that, but the receivers didn't win to get open.

Pressure started breaking down the pocket, so he moved away from it to his left. He kept his head up while moving and found Nelson breaking free and hit him for 18 yards. As he threw, Cliff Avril pounded him to the ground. That showed toughness.

Most young quarterbacks would run in that situation, but Flynn kept his head up and made a play.

Grade: B+

Anticipation

This is a concern for me. Windows open and close quickly. A quarterback has to see the receiver coming open and anticipate the throws. You can't wait.

Too often, I thought Flynn waited for the receiver to come completely open. Even on one of his touchdown passes that was the case.

On that play, Green Bay had a second-and-7 from the Detroit 42. The Packers were in maximum protection, so it was a two-man route.

Flynn took the snap in the shotgun and looked to Nelson on the right side. Nelson faked a deep out and ran the post against Chris Houston in man coverage. He beat Houston with the fake, but Flynn held the ball too long. He allowed the safety to come over and get in the picture.

Even so, he was able to hit Nelson, who made a nice catch on a pass that wasn't entirely accurate. The delay in throwing allowed Houston to recover some and get back into the play. If the safety had played it better, the ball could have been picked off. Instead it was a 59-yard touchdown pass to help pad the stat line.

Anticipating receivers coming open is a tough hurdle for young quarterbacks. Flynn has to do better in that area. Time will help.

Grade: C

Overall

It wasn't great. It wasn't bad.

That makes him somewhat of a dicey proposition based on this game.

It certainly wasn't a performance as good as the numbers would indicate. Even his second-to-last touchdown was a bit of good fortune.

With two receivers to his right and Finley lined up in-line on the right side, Flynn took the snap in the shotgun on a third-and-8 at the Detroit 35. With Finley running a little curl in the middle of the field, Flynn looked to be throwing to him.

But as the ball was in the air, Donald Driver crossed in front of Finley and picked the ball out of the air and raced untouched into the end zone for a score.

The play may have been designed for that, but it was evident in the way the ball was delivered that Flynn was throwing to Finley and not Driver -- even if nobody will admit that.

Watching this game would leave me wanting more. And that's the problem, there isn't much more. He has just one other start, in 2010 against the Patriots. He put up good numbers that day, throwing for 251 yards and three touchdowns, but as this Lions game taught us numbers can be deceiving.

Signing him to a huge deal is essentially rolling the dice he can be a Super Bowl-quality starter.

The Lions game leaves that question, despite the gaudy numbers, still unanswered in my mind.

it's just whether you think that 5 $10mil 1 year deals is big or not then (basically what Kolb got).

it's pretty standard for mid-level QBs, so I don't see it as that big of a deal especially if we can build the rest of the team too.

No matter what, it is still just one performance - and a fat contract is a LOT to stake on what could literally be a one-hit wonder.

I keep going back to the fact that DA put up 51 on the Bengals in his 1st start of 2007 ........

If we haven't learned from that lesson, then I don't know when we will learn.

It would be different if the guy was our backup, and we were going to give him a shot ...... but in this case, we would be signing him and shutting off other potential avenues to a viable starter. Sure there may be one available next year, but next year is never guaranteed. An injury here or there to a QB prospect, or a key player on his team, a guy having a really disappointing year, and suddenly we could be down to no options next year.

it's likely not a "fat" contract though. Kolbs was a series of 1year $10mil deals. that's midlevel QB in the NFL these days and I am fine with taking that chance on Flynn.

Big difference between the two scenarios though.

Kolb was traded. Flynn is a free agent.

Which is a great point... there is no way you get a one year deal.

Secondly, there will be the want to get a bunch of guaranteed money... and long years. All for an unproven.


And there is no way I'm OK with the idea of paying $10M/year to an unknown. If the guy had proven himself and established himself as being worth that? Sure. As a crap shoot with ONE good performance to show? Heck no.

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Back on topic: Prisco's take on Flynn:

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Beautiful...A breakdown...Thanks...

Now I must read ten times and digest...Cause right now I'm not touching this kid...

While true, Kolb was motivated to sign a deal just so he could get out from under Vick and play. Furthermore, any deal he signed, even if it was team-friendly, was going to pay him a TON more than what he was making.

Flynn, on the other hand, isn't locked in to any such constraints. Highest bidder wins, meaning his price should be much higher.

Right. From the teams' perspective it won't be drastically different. Flynn will probably command a higher price, but it won't be terribly much more, because no team is going to pay him silly money. And just because Kolb was motivated to get out from Vick didn't mean he was going to sign for peanuts, either. He still had to sign off on the deal, meaning he had to approve of the dollar figure.

Great explanation Ytown, I wouldn't have said it any differently. The only thing I would add is that we haven't really gotten through 2 whole drafts. Part of last year's draft will be decided in this year's draft (ATL trade). So you're saying that we don't have enough pluses from last years offensive draftees, and I would say that part of that draft will be decided in this year's draft.

very good point. that's why I initially thought it'd be structured more like a 2year window deal. probably how it ends up.

You can easily put things into a contract to save yourself after two years...

Everybody was up in arms that Indy gave Manning a 5 year 90 million dollar deal right after surgery, then every body finds out that Indy can get out of it after a year if they want...

I've stated before I don't really care how much people get paid by the Browns, it's not my money, do whatever...

So if they wanna give Flynn 5 years 50 million... Go ahead...

Give him a bunch of guaranteed money up front, then after this and next year, if he's not up to snuff, you put an out in the contract like Manning and Indy has...