Quote: I've heard this a couple of times now recently ... I don't remember this at all.
There may have been one or two posters, but the overwhelming majority of the board was absolutely terrified at the prospect of taking Russell.
That draft was a Thomas v. Peterson debate for months. A few folks wanted Calvin Johnson. I don't recall anyone clamoring for Russell. I'm sure there were a few, there always is ... but to say there was an outcry to move up for him is flat out revisionist.
I remember the Thomas vs. Peterson debate quite well lol, that's what I think was being debated most hotly back then. I don't really remember a big group of people campaigning for Russell. I think most people understood the risk back then because his work ethic was in question even pre-draft.
I remember the Thomas vs. Peterson debate quite well lol, that's what I think was being debated most hotly back then. I don't really remember a big group of people campaigning for Russell. I think most people understood the risk back then because his work ethic was in question even pre-draft.
IIRC You were on the Peterson side and I (Toad was the biggest) were on the Thomas side. The good ole days. There were some Calvin Johnson discussions there were absolutely NO Russell pimps. Really i think the only one who wanted Russell was Savage.
I forgot all about Peterson being in play that year too.
Man ... shows what I get for trying to remember back that far. lol
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Take away RG3's intelligence, personality, drive, athleticism and speed. Make all those average type qualities.
What round is he drafted? It's not before Round 3. It's not ahead of Kirk Cousins for sure. He doesn't have a gifted arm and he's not mechanically sound. He's accurate but I'd attribute that to the incredibly sized holes he's lobbing passes into.
Now add all those highly important qualities back in. And that gets him to be worth three first rounders???
The hype machine is in overdrive like I've rarely seen it.
I'm not sure how you can say he doesn't have an arm. He hits guys dead in stride, on all types of passes, can zip an out on a laser beam, and has incredible arm strength, accuracy, and ability to throw over the top on deep passes that rainbow right into his receiver's hands. he hits slants rapidly and accurately.
What do you see that says that he lacks regarding his arm? From everything I have seen, while he may not have the absolutely strongest arm in college football, it's in the upper tier. Everything I have read tends to agree.
I have watched a lot of his games from this past season, and he fits passes into narrow holes. He doesn't have massive caverns like some would have us believe. He is more than capable of passes zipped in between double coverage. (even down the field) He can throw a pass 20 yards on a line with a flick of his wrist. The best part is that he sometimes does this with bad mechanics, which means that he can still improve even more.
Can you give me some examples that I can look at where you think that his arm lacks strength, or his passes lack zip?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
He has every other quality other than arm strength and passing mechanics in spades. Well almost he doesn't have prototype size or durability but I digress.
Just pointing out that people are paying a whole lot of attention to the shine on the apple.
When you look beyond that, at the apple itself, it doesn't look all that amazing.
Griffin might throw the best deep ball in the draft. I've seen him play a few times, the guy has plenty of arm. One of the most complete quarterbacks, I've seen in a long time, when it comes to arm, smarts, athleticism, and accuracy. The guy has it all.
I agree. I don't see a lack of arm strength. If anything, I see him as having plus arm strength.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I do fully agree that the Rams would rather not drop past six. Because of that I think we gain some leverage in terms of what we have to give up. Yay us! however, where we differ in opinion is that I think the Rams know they are woefully short on talent, so even though they wouldn't get the ideal trade scenario, they realize unlike in most years they are essentially guaranteed of getting a trade and can't afford to pass the opportunity up.
Side note here...for those fans who blast other fans for wanting to lose games at the end of a season where there are no hopes of a playoff appearance so we can get a higher draft position, well, sitting at 4 sure as Hell is nicer than sitting at #6 right now. .
Sometimes losing a battle to win a war makes sense...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Take away RG3's intelligence, personality, drive, athleticism and speed. Make all those average type qualities.
Take those away those same traits from every single QB in the NFL and they become a bad QB.
If we are taking RG3's speed, intelligence, personality, drive...why don't we take that away from Trent Richardson? Then what does he become? How about Justin Blackmon? How about any prospect in the draft?
Come on man.
Any other year, RG3 is a lock for the first overall pick. This is a 2004 like draft where there are actually 2 HOF QB's coming out of college. Tannehill is a bigger Colt McCoy, IMO, so I don't think there is a Ben Roethlisberger type in there, but there are definitely two franchise QB's at the top.
Quote: Griffin might throw the best deep ball in the draft. I've seen him play a few times, the guy has plenty of arm. One of the most complete quarterbacks, I've seen in a long time, when it comes to arm, smarts, athleticism, and accuracy. The guy has it all.
I've heard from a lot of credible media types that RG3 throws the best deep ball.
He has a good arm. There's not a ton to hate about this kid. He's extremely sharp.
I'm not all about mortgaging the farm for anyone, but I think this guy could be worth making a deal and parting with some of our future. I think we can actually offer less picks than Washington because the picks we do have are better. 4 is better than six and 22 is the trump card in my opinion.
I still think it's all premature. If this is all true, I wanna hear it draft week.
Hel, I cannot agree that his accuracy numbers are inflated due to huge holes to through through in college. I've seen just too many pinpoint throws where he hit "nfl open" receivers, unlike what guys like Quinn and Mccoy had.
Did he have big holes at times due to the spread? Absolutely he did. Anyone who says otherwise are lying to either us or themselves. However, its the throws into tight windoes that give him his grades. In that regard, he does have an elite arm.
I think he's as gifted a thrower as has come into the league in years. To me, I'm more conerned with his ability to stay on the field.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: If you didn't have any prior knowledge of these two players...
And RG3 and Jordan Jefferson showed up on your front lawn to throw the football...
There is no one that would guess that Jefferson would go undrafted and RG3 would be worth 3 first rounders.
That's based on the ability to throw the football and nothing else
And if Jamarcus Russell showed up, all three of them would look like high schoolers.
But the game isn't played with no defenders, pass rush, or thinking. And while Griffin isn't as talented at throwing the ball as hard or far as those guys, he has better smarts, accuracy, and intelligence than both of them combined. Add in the fact that Griffin has a great deep ball and is able to escape and beat blitzes, and you have a great QB.
The only question on Griffin should be his size/durability to take hits in the open field.
Russell busted and yeah, he had physical talent,,, BUT YEAH,, fans were nuts for him and wanted us to trade away whatever we had to to get him,.,
I've heard this a couple of times now recently ... I don't remember this at all.
There may have been one or two posters, but the overwhelming majority of the board was absolutely terrified at the prospect of taking Russell.
That draft was a Thomas v. Peterson debate for months. A few folks wanted Calvin Johnson. I don't recall anyone clamoring for Russell. I'm sure there were a few, there always is ... but to say there was an outcry to move up for him is flat out revisionist.
Thank you. This is exactly how I remember it. There were probably more who wanted Quinn than Russell, and as I remember there weren't many of those either.
Quote: IIRC You were on the Peterson side and I (Toad was the biggest) were on the Thomas side. The good ole days. There were some Calvin Johnson discussions there were absolutely NO Russell pimps. Really i think the only one who wanted Russell was Savage.
Yep, I remember debating you guys and Pit (who I eventually made a sig for because I lost the bet haha) as well as others. I do remember liking Thomas a great deal though, just not as much as Peterson. Ahhh, the good ol' days when we were debating which Hall of Famer to take lol. I'll take that choice over being stuck with mediocre QBs if we lose the Griffin auction anyday!
You cannot separate out the various parts of a player. All that RG3 is makes up who and what he is.
I also disagree about his arm. I have watched almost every game he played this past year, and he makes NFL throws in every one of them. he can zip an out as well as any QB I have seen lately, and that throw needs an arm or it can easily be a pick 6 the other way.
I haven't seen RG3 float passes. I have seen him zip them into tight windows, or between double coverage, IMHO, he has a plus NFL arm. Add that to all of his other traits, and I see a great NFL QB.
We'll see who was closer to being right in a few years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
In case you haven't noticed I'm trying to counter the silliness going on right now surrounding RG3's NFL prospects.
It'd be like an NBA prospect that's really really really great although he's not a great shooter. Or a baseball player that's a transcendent prospect but he doesn't have home run power.
The guy doesn't have a great arm. That's a fact.
He's not a 5 tool player to borrow a baseball euphemism.
If he's not given time to fix his mechanics and not taught how to use his lower body correctly in throwing the football he's not going to make it long term in the NFL. That's my opinion.
And I simply do not know how you can watch him play and say that he doesn't have a great arm.
That really is just beyond comprehension to me. He has a plus arm, and can make all of the throws. He should improve even more as his mechanics are standardized and stabilized.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I absolutley LOATH the idea of the Browns trading 4, 22, a 3rd a 5th and a player or anything like that for this No talent unproven gibrone, (who I hate more with each passing day) named Robert Griffeth, or Griffen, or whatever.
( Hey no more derogartory than the hype or those out there waving pom poms for this prospect )
Loath that idea, and then moving forward missing out on all of those players and he being really good, or really bad.
I'd much rather , MUCH RATHER, have some other team get RG3, and RG3 wins 2 superbowls for that other team, and the Browns KEEP their 4-22, 3rd 5th, and a player , and the Browns go forward trying to win a superbowl with some other quarterback.
Somebody please talk about RG3's best game, his best 2 games or his best 3 games in college. Somebody please who is soo in love with this prospect, please convince me he's not going to be the biggest mistake since the Jet/Browns 1st round trade, What is RG3's biggest win, or top 3 wins?
What is the toughest defense he faced? at baylor. ( Setting School records at Baylor is like setting school records at Western Michigan, ) And if you read about a prospect, and the first paragraph lists how he set school records at Baylor, and they don't have something better to say, then that prospect is not worth 2 first round picks.
If I were the Browns, I'd be so upset with the Rams right now, I'd take the #4 pick off the table, say, you want to trade down, start talking about trading down to 22, there's no way you get that #4 pick and you can pick ANYBODY you want! I don't give ANYTHING about helping the Rams out.
Oh you take away inteligience athleticism, yada yada , away from any Qb and what else is there?
They aren't mentioning pocket pressence, Height, accuracy, game management, experience, defenses he's faced, His killer instinct to win games and make comebacks when the ohter team is playing well.
So he interviews well? He's not going to interview the Ravens steelers, and Bengals, He's not going to be in an interview contest with Tim Tebow if he plays denver.
So Just to ask? Someone, tell me about RG3's best game. Because look up articles on his bowl win, and first paragraph. RG3 dissappeard , and he was involved in 2 td's in 60+ points his team scored.
Colt McCoy did better in College and he isn't worth 2 first rounders + 3 more
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
A player with RGIII's measurables comes along once every 5-10 years.
A player with RGII's measurables AND intangibles comes along every 10-15.
It honestly doesn't matter what it costs, just get it done.
The Browns have a surplus of picks (6 picks in the first 4 rounds) and find themselves in the best position to land him. The reason you makes trades like last year (take a big package of picks to move back) is so you have the ammunition to go get a guy that is potentially an elite player. Not only an elite player but a possible franchise player at QB.
Everyone overvalues draft picks IMO. A 3 for 1 swap, even if it is 3 #1's is completely inconsequential if you find a QB who will play the next 10+ years at a high level. Those selections can be recouped by moving down in future drafts and also mitigated by free agent acquisitions.
You don't make such a trade for ANY position but for QB, you absolutely pull the trigger.
Quote: Those guys listed above had hype but couldn't live up to it. What exactly is going to stop RGIII from living up to his? He has all the physical tools. He has a great work ethic. He's incredibly mature, well-spoken and is a team leader. He's intelligent enough to learn whatever we throw at him. Sure, he's not necessarily "pro ready" given that he'll have to learn a lot of the offense but again... what is going to stop him from living up to the hype?
First of all...So was Courtney Brown....
Second of all....How about playing in a restrictive system that won't take advantage of his strongest attributes and is dependant upon his weakest...nor having the talent around him to help him succeed and then giving up the means in order to get that talent around him for several years....
Not saying he can't do it...but you asked...I answered...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
Quote: In case you haven't noticed I'm trying to counter the silliness going on right now surrounding RG3's NFL prospects.
It'd be like an NBA prospect that's really really really great although he's not a great shooter. Or a baseball player that's a transcendent prospect but he doesn't have home run power.
The guy doesn't have a great arm. That's a fact.
He's not a 5 tool player to borrow a baseball euphemism.
If he's not given time to fix his mechanics and not taught how to use his lower body correctly in throwing the football he's not going to make it long term in the NFL. That's my opinion.
Can you maybe get a couple youtube clips of him being terrible please?
Quote: And I simply do not know how you can watch him play and say that he doesn't have a great arm.
That really is just beyond comprehension to me. He has a plus arm, and can make all of the throws. He should improve even more as his mechanics are standardized and stabilized.
He doesn't get on top of the ball when he throws 99% of the time.
I don't understand your side as well. Point me to a site where I can watch a replay of a game. Not the bowl game which I watched or the oklahoma state game where I gave up watching at 49-3 in the third quarter.
Pick one that will support your case and I'll watch it tonight.
Quote: Those guys listed above had hype but couldn't live up to it. What exactly is going to stop RGIII from living up to his? He has all the physical tools. He has a great work ethic. He's incredibly mature, well-spoken and is a team leader. He's intelligent enough to learn whatever we throw at him. Sure, he's not necessarily "pro ready" given that he'll have to learn a lot of the offense but again... what is going to stop him from living up to the hype?
First of all...So was Courtney Brown....
Second of all....How about playing in a restrictive system that won't take advantage of his strongest attributes and is dependant upon his weakest...nor having the talent around him to help him succeed and then giving up the means in order to get that talent around him for several years....
Not saying he can't do it...but you asked...I answered...
This is what scares me! Pidgeon hole the kid and he become more grist for the QB mill that is Cleveland! Expensive grist at that!
You unleash that talent if he has it, not hold it back.
I can totally see how people who watched parts of two or three games can think he doesn't have the arm strength that people who actually have watched multiple full games of his know he has.
I can't remember seeing someone who was so insistent on putting as much touch on the ball as possible just about every pass. He just doesn't wing it unless it is needed on the play. You could see he was trying to answer the critics on his first pass of the godawful Alamobowl when he fired that slant and almost knocked Terrance Williams over. After the play, Williams looked at Griffin like "Why the face?" Usually, Griffin calmly tossed those slants to his receivers in stride and they just kept on running. I really think Griffin wanted to show he had a big arm and that that's what happened on the play.
In his interview with the combine commentators, they asked him something like "what do you want people to know about you as a QB" or something like that... he said something like "that I'm not just an athelete, that I can make all the throws, that I know when to take something off of the throw..." I can't remember many QB prospects talking about their ability to "take something off" the throw. Seems like most guys just throw it (see: Landry Jones, Derek Anderson.)
I'm not trying to say this is some great attribute, what I'm saying is that he's just not trying to impress you with every throw. He's trying to complete passes and allow his guys to get downfield. Really, the first game I watched of him back in September (or early October... can't remember exactly), I didn't think he had a big arm, either. I gave him another shot and he pulled out this laser on the run that was 20 yards on a rope. Total "what in the heck was that" moment. He only made about 2 of those every three games, but after that I started noticing how much he mixed up the speeds of his passes, and it had mostly to do with the coverage. The guy just really seems to get football to me.
Hel, I'm not sure what you're seeing in terms of a lack of arm strength.
I don't think he has the strongest arm in the NFL but his zip is pretty close to elite. I don't think anyone who's evaluating players is saying anything to the contrary. When he's throwing bee-bee's at his pro day, I'm sure any concerns you may have about his arm will be relieved.
I suppose if you want to nitpick, you could say his release is a tad long but the ease with which he throws a football is very rare.
The only concern I have is durability. Everything else is off the charts for both he and Luck.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Well ..... for one, there's 5th ranked Oklahoma in the clip above, and Baylor won 45-38.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Kosar threw like crap also. Arnold Palmers golf swing is horrendous. And...every QB in history has his moments of laughable play.
Guys take what they have somehow and make it work.
I dont know how the kid will pan out. I'm not sure I want to use multiple picks to get him. I dont know if he's worth the #4 let alone other picks. What I do know is this organization is pure VANILLA! We need some excitement around here!
Count me on the side of "the news outlets need a bonfire of hype, and Luck just isn't giving it to them anymore, so here comes RG3". I think the kid is a great talent, and we would be better off by picking him. He's NOT a Luck/Manning type of prospect, though (imo). Lucks/Mannings come around once in a long while, but RG3 is really a rung or two down from there.
Put another way, next year, they're going to be saying all the same things about Barkley.
In terms of draft day, obviously the best case scenario would be to have RG3 drop to us at 4. I don't think we're going to see one of these mega-trades happen for the #2 pick. I think FA will help ease some of the pressure which is pushing up the price for this pick.
Another thing I wanted to mention is that the hype-machine is forgetting one thing, and that's Kalil. The dude is the "can't miss" LT of this draft, and you have St. Louis and Minny desperately wanting that guy. Minny would also do well in picking up Claiborne because their secondary is awful.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
lol![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
however, where we differ in opinion is that I think the Rams know they are woefully short on talent, so even though they wouldn't get the ideal trade scenario, they realize unlike in most years they are essentially guaranteed of getting a trade and can't afford to pass the opportunity up.
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