DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) ESPN: Rams to trade #2 pick

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That's why you have to do your due diligence, and make sure the guy is the read deal.

If you do, and he is, what should you do then? Should you sit still and pray that he somehow falls to your team, even if there is zero percent chance that it happens, or do you make a move to go get him?

God kelps those who help themselves.

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It really comes down to a case of risk/reward, and Holmgren and Heckert are paid the big bucks to make that decision. For me, it comes down to just how much is too much. I would assume the front office has/will set their ceiling as far as how much to offer. In an ideal world, we get our long-term QB, while still being able to add pieces to the puzzle. If the Browns come out of FA with a top WR, then it's a little easier to take trading picks. If they come out of FA with a QB, then the point becomes moot, and the Browns likely look to trade down.

No matter which direction the Browns go, there will be those calling for heads on a silver platter, and those hailing the Browns brass.

Like you said in another post: as long as the Browns win, I don't care which way they do it. Too many on here want it to be their way, so they can pat themselves on the back and say they knew it. Anything other than their way is wrong.

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So yeah we could trade that first in 2013 and go get Barkely next year (or whatever QB).

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Dude...It's SUICIDE to operate with forward thinking of that nature...

The problem is that no matter how much we "help" Colt McCoy, he is still going to be Colt McCoy.

Colt McCoy is a great kid. He is a hard worker, who would run through walls to help his team win a game. He would probably concentrate on football 28 hours a day if he didn;t have such a beautiful bride waiting for him at home, and that probably "only" reduces him down to 23 hours/day spent thinking about football.

He has leadership built into his DNA. His teammates respect him.

Unfortunately, he just lacks top flight talent. That's why he slid into the 3rd round, and probably would have fallen into the 4th or below if we hadn't drafted him. He has too many limiting physical factors that his intangibles simply cannot overcome for him to ever become a top flight, starting NFL QB. It's not for a lack of trying. He simply does not have the ability to be a starter at this level.

He was a good chance to take when and where he was drafted. He got more time than Brady Quinn did to prove himself. He hasn't. He has failed as a starter for this team.

He might still develop into a solid backup, a guy who can win a game here or there if the starter is out, and the defense is prepared for something entirely different to what he brings to the table. However, we all saw last year whet happens when teams have a chance to prepare for him. Really, we started to see it in 2010 as well.

The QB must be addressed if we want this team to be any more than a team that might compete for 3rd place every few years. It must be addressed with something more than someone else's backup who wasn't that highly thought of coming into the league, and who has exactly 13 starts between college and the pros in the past 8 years combined. It must be addressed by something more than a fill in free agent, as teams almost never let great QBs go. (Drew Brees being the one exception I can think of) It must be addressed by more than trading for someone else's backup. That can work ...... but it rarely does. All too often you wind up with Charlie Whitehurst instead of Brett Favre.

We are in a truly unique position in this year's draft to make a move and fix the QB position once and for all. (or, at least for the next 10-15 years)

Could Griffin bust? Sure he could. Any player "could". What is the likelihood, though, of this happening? IMHO, which has been pretty decent on QBs, it's not very high at all. He has all of the traits you want in a QB, from elite accuracy, to an elite arm, to the best deep ball in college football, to intelligence, to leadership, to likability, and so on down the list. He has it all. I believe that he will be a great QB in the NFL.

If the Browns believe so as well, then they must find a way to get him. Great QBs are harder to find than any other player in the NFL. They are valuable beyond any 3 other players. Ask the Saints if they would rather keep Drew Brees, or Nicks, Meachum, and Colston. Which "group" would they choose, the group of 1, or the group of 3?

I know who I would choose.

My point being not that we were gameplanning for a specific QB ... just that a QB would be there next year if we wanted to try and get one.

Just like most people on this board didn't even hear about Robert Griffin until November or so ... there are players out there now who project to come in higher than he does already.

I'm not saying go after any ONE guy ... just that I'd rather build through the draft and add talent then spend 3, 4, 5 picks on a guy when we could conceivably get someone who is in the same ballpark as he is next year for a single pick or maybe two.

Sorry if you misunderstood or if I framed it in a confusing way.

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Unfortunately, he just lacks top flight talent "around him"

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Fixed if for ya

Sorry if i am reading you wrong here, but our 1st pick next year isn't on the block. We will still have that if we make the trade for RGIII

Two things. I agree with you about McCoy so long as you add that he does not CURRENTLY have the ability to be a top flight NFL QB.

IFFF he had Calvin Johnson on one side, Fitzgerald on the other, and Mike Wallace in the slot with Gronkowski at tight end and 4 out of 5 linemen that would look like they were locks for the Hall of Fame ... I bet he looks a little better.

LOL not that we can expect that to happen ... but let me ask just another question.

If we took a few of the guys that are great ... let's say Brees, Roethlisberger, Rivers, .... guys that have the tools to be top 5-10 QB's but maybe not Elite ...

What if we gave them a top wideout of Greg Little? Who's on the other side? Who knows. Maybe a street free agent? Who's your running back? Not sure. Who is protecting you on the right tackle position? ... Hang on ... let us check the waiver wire.

I'm not arguing that Griffin isn't good. I AMMMM arguing that there is a price which makes sense, and one that says if we get him it won't matter because by the time he is ready to make a difference we will be clamoring for the next shiny QB that comes along.

I also don't believe that the position we are in is "unique" In fact ... it's all too familiar to us. However, the difference is for the first time in a long time we have qualified people in place.

What I mean:

2011: We were at 7 ... COULD have had Locker (8) Gabbert (10) Ponder (12), Dalton (2nd Round)
2010: Tebow
2009: Sanchez, Freeman
2008: (Except for Quinn Trade)
2007: (Got Quinn) Kolb
2006: Kellen Clemens
2005: Rodgers, Campbell
2004: Roethlisberger
2003: Grossman
2002: McCown
2001: Brees
2000: Pennington (all)
1999: Got Couch - Could have had McNabb, Smith, Culpepper, McNown

What we "missed out on"
2011: Newton
2010: Bradford
2009: Stafford
2008: Ryan, Flacco
2007: Stanton
2006: Young, Leinart, Cutler
2005: Alex Smith
2004: Manning, Rivers
2003: Palmer, Boller
2002: Carr, Harrington
2001: Vick
2000: None - First Pick
2000: None - First Pick


So like I keep saying i DO like Griffin.

That being said I disagree that this is the ONLY chance we have in the next 5 to 10 years to select a guy. In fact ... it goes to show the opposite. More times than not we HAVE been selecting high and we let some REALLLY good ones slip through our fingers.

Furthermore, if we were to stick with McCoy then one of two things happen ... 1 we win enough games to move us towards .500 ... and then we can build in NEXT years draft by having upgrades vs. plugging holes - by having consistency instead of turnover, by having experience instead of rookies being plugged in, and by having talent all around instead of just in spot places.

And if McCoy comes out and looks like garbage even with a RT, RB, WR, and other players put in place ... then we win .. what ... enough games to put us to 6-10? That would put us drafting ... where...? About 8th to 10th? Well we could grab a QB at that point if we determine it to be the highest need AND it won't cost us everything. There have been guys that fall to the 8 to 10 spot before (Locker, Ponder, Freeman, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brees, etc).

I am not neglecting your points on NEEDING a franchise QB. I really do believe in that and agree on that. I just differ in the idea that there is no sense of urgency. This isn't the last year of the NFL. We aren't end-gamin here (unless you believe in the mayan's predictions). We have spent the past few years adding talent and building the team. If we have to trade a pick or two then that's ok because it was ok when we did it with Hardesty and Lauvao... so it is certainly alright for a potential franchise QB.

BUT ... I don't want to be the one who lost out on 4 to 5 starters for a QB. Because even if he comes in and show's he's a slight upgrade over McCoy... we could have had a slight upgrade by signing a free agent for a 2 year period and then looked for another guy!

I'm just on the "I Like Griffin ... but let's not overpay to get him because there was "top 5 hype" on quarterbacks last year and the year before that ... and I'd be willing to bet around a week or two after the seasons are over next year we will be hearing Kiper / McShay / and every other 'analyst' talking about the 2 or 3 "can't miss kids" who are all "franchise QB's" set to go in the first round" wagon.

Honestly I don't know.

I was just trying to make the fit for 2 first rounders.

Some people have said that the Browns would be unwilling to part with the #22 and would rather trade the 1st next year so that they could still have the chance to add weapons in this draft.

Others have said it would make more sense to only spend on this draft that way we won't feel the ramifications of it by the time the draft is over.

Moreso I was making a point just on what would have been given up if those teams had spent an additional first rounder and they simply didn't have two in that draft.

Well ..... Roethlisberger did play with a line that was worse than ours ...... and his receivers are their 2009 2nd pick, and 6thd round pick from 2010. They also have Emmanuel Sanders who they drafted in 2010, oddly enough, 4 rounds ahead of Antonio Brown. (their 6th round pick)

Brown came out of football powerhoiuse, Central Michigan. Wallace from Mississippi. Yippee.

They have Hines Ward as their veteran.

They draft guys, and Roethlisberger makes them work.

How many yards do you think that Little would have had this past year, if he had been drafted by the Steelers? I bet he would have been over 1100 yards easily, with far, far, far more big plays.

j/c

using your data collection to make a different point

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2011: We were at 7 ... COULD have had Locker (8) Gabbert (10) Ponder (12), Dalton (2nd Round)
2010: Tebow
2009: Sanchez, Freeman
2008: (Except for Quinn Trade)
2007: (Got Quinn) Kolb
2006: Kellen Clemens
2005: Rodgers, Campbell
2004: Roethlisberger
2003: Grossman
2002: McCown
2001: Brees
2000: Pennington (all)
1999: Got Couch - Could have had McNabb, Smith, Culpepper, McNown

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22 QBs are listed above as guys we "could have" or "did" select in the 1st round with 3 of them actually going in the 2nd round (but before our 2nd round pick). Of these, 4 (in white) are the guys I consider to have answered their teams QB situations (others still might but not definitive).

Of those 4 QBs, Brees was considered a bust enough for SD to select a QB #4 overall (and eventually lose Brees with no compensation). Roethlisburger's issues of holding onto the ball too long and his off-field issues would likely have been a bigger issue on a less-stable team. Rodgers took 3 years of completely re-working his throwing motion with Clements and learning the WCO before he was considered ready to play. That leaves McNabb, who has not exactly been controversial free in his career but has some undeniable attributes (but may have been killed behind that '99 OL).

Wow. That is really humbling to consider that no matter which of those QBs we selected we might not have really been that much better off today.

Right. But I also said that they were in a better position becuase they (Roethlisberger and Flacco) both stepped into teams that were essentially solid. People feared the Steelers and Ravens before they had those guys. So they had a much better shot of hitting on their chances they took.

Still ... not sure how that addresses my point to be fair.

I said I liked Griffin but didn't think that we were in a position to waste picks especially when we have holes. You said the Steelers filled holes with late round picks.

So are you saying we can gamble on a QB when our front office drafts mid to late rounders that become starters?

lol no seriously though I get your point. I'm just of the opinion there is talent out there and it's not so much NEEDING to go get the toy with all of the bells and whistles and flashing lights ... but rather having the scouting department to recognize talent when it's in front of you

I think we have that now.

And I'd rather spend 1 pick on a potential guy (whether Griffin or Tannehill)

then spend 4 or 5 on him.

That's my only view.

And that's a fair argument to make. I disagree. I think that franchise quality guys only come along so often, and if you have a chance to get one, you need to do it. That's been my stance all along. I understand that not everyone agrees with it though.

The ones I don't get are those who argue that the QB just isn't all that important .... and that a "decent" guy is good enough. Especially in our division, if we just have a "decent" QB, then we have resigned ourselves to competing for 3rd place at best. I want to compete for 1st, not 3rd. That's my position.

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And I'd rather spend 1 pick on a potential guy (whether Griffin or Tannehill) then spend 4 or 5 on him.

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Tannehill IMO is much more of a "potential guy" than RG3.

If we draft RG3, and we give up 4,22,3rd rounder and 5th rounder, I expect that we're pretty confident that he'll be a successful NFL QB.

With the 4th pick in the draft, I doubt there's anyway that we'll give three first round picks for any player, unless their name is Andrew Luck

So yeah, I don't see why these two guys should be compared, one's draft value is far ahead of another IMO


And you asked about the Ravens and if they had to trade up the picks they used on Rice, etc. to get Flacco, would they be as good. If we trade up to number 2 for RG3, we better not be getting Joe Freakin Flacco.

He's not much more than an avg QB IMO. If we make that trade, we're looking to get a superstar/elite level QB. Someone like Rogers, Brady, Eli, Peyton, Brees, or Rothlisberger.

And, if that's not what they see RG3 as becoming, we shouldn't make that trade.......... Hold the course, stick with McCoy, try to trade down if possible and find solutions to the holes. Colt is better than the haters give him credit for. But if there's a superstar QB available, that's the guy I want (And Colt is not one of those kind of superstar QBs)

Seize opportunities when they're available, but don't make knee jerk reactions

First (while it's not a big deal) I don't get the hate for Flacco. I never said he was a top 5 guy. But he is better than he gets credit for.

His "best" receiver since he has been there has been ... either Mason or Boldin. Yeah they have some young guys too ... but they haven't necessarily had 1st round top flight receivers there.

Flacco is also a guy that in 4 years - hasn't missed a game. has a career percentage of 60.8% (a little low ... but not bad by any means). 13,816 yards (or about 3,500 per year) and while he does have a lot of turnovers (46 INTs and a bunch of fumbles) he also has 80 TDS.

In 4 years he also has 4 post season appearances and at least one win in each postseason. Give me 5 postseason wins with a quarterback in 4 years and I think they are at least in the conversation of being pretty good.

He isn't Manning / Brees / Manning / Brady ... but if Flacco hypothetically wins a superbowl this year I think he's right around the top 5 area ... (4, 5, 6, 7 ish).

My point in comparing Tannehill and Griffin is that if we are going to spend a pick on a QB ... I would rather take tannehill and trade down then waste a bunch of picks (using the word waste for a lack of a better term of course) and trade up to take Griffin.

My personal preference ... try to trade down if anyone wants Claiborne / Kalil / Blackmon. then go after Tannehill in the mid first if we want a QB.

I prefer: Tannehill, #37, another team's 2nd (and perhaps first next year if the move is far enough), and our 3rd and 5th

instead of Griffin. Because it might cost the #4, #37 and maybe our third and fifth to get him.

So ... Griffin + #22 in the first 3 rounds OR Tannehill, #22, #37, extra 2nd from trade down (plus maybe more) and 3rd rounder.

I'd take the second option.

I doubt RG3 will ever be even a top 10 QB. There already are the top 10 QBs, plus Luck this year and Barkley next year. How much do you give up for a gamble on a guy that may be top 15? And he won't even be top 15 with the supporting cast on this O.

I'm OK if we take him at 4 if the FO likes it, but I wouldn't move to take him. I'd move for Luck or Barkley, though.

I don't doubt that RG3 will be a top 5 QB ...... so we differ in opinion. I value him a lot more than you do.

There are definitely 2 sides on the RG3 issue, (along with those who go wishy washy in the middle somewhere) and we'll see who's right over the course of the next few years. I'm definitely on record where I stand. If I'm right, I sure hope that he's in a Browns uniform.

I like Colt.. I think he will continue to improve if given the opportunity to play next season. Considering how the ticket price for the 2 spot is very expensive, Colt should get that shot.

I say this respectfully.

This is the kind of attitude that I think you are posting on Griffin that makes at least me question the rest of your opinions on him....

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I don't doubt that RG3 will be a top 5 QB

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You are saying that with QB's like Brees, Manning (maybe both of them), Brady, Roethlisberger, Rodgers ... the guys who have all of the tools but no rings like Rivers, Flacco, Ryan, Cutler, the young guys who look like at least a few have potential but it requires more time like Stafford, Newton, Freeman, Dalton, Locker, Bradford

And you think he is instantly going to be top 5? If Barkely came out this year he might (I use that carefully of course) MIGHT not even be the second QB taken.

I am all for Griffin as a potential franchise QB. But he DOES have question marks. He hasn't proven anything yet. And I think - respectfully of course - your sure-thing opinion of him is making me question the rest of your opinions on him.

Let me ask you a serious question.

1st round picks typically get more time to develop than lower round picks do.

Brady Quinn, who looked an awful lot like a Charlie Frye clone, got 12 starts over 2 years to show what he could do. Those 2 years were divided between the Crennel and Mangini administrations.

After those 2 partial seasons, the team (and Holmgren) decided to move on and get rid of Quinn.

Quinn's numbers in the team where he had the most exposure?

9 starts, 53.1% completion percentage, 5.23 yards/attempt, 8 TD, 9 INT, 12 pass plays of 20+ yards in 256 pass attempts. (one every 21 throws)

Quinn completed 70% of his passes behind the LOS, 61% from 0-10 yards, and 44% from 11-20 yards.

Colt McCoy's numbers look remarkably similar.

13 starts, 57.2% completion percentage. 5.90 yards/attempt, 14 TD, 11 INT, 26 plays of 20+ yards in 463 pass attempts. (one every 18 throws) McCoy completed 74% of his passes behind the LOS, 59% from 0-10 yards, and 45% from 11-20 yards.

The biggest difference between the 2 players is that Quinn is about 2 inches taller.

Quinn was dumped, because it was felt that he could not win here. (or really, in the NFL) Thus far he has proven that opinion correct.

What does McCoy have that makes you think that he (#1) should get more time based on his results to date, and (#2) makes you feel that he should get more time, as a 3rd round pick, than a 1st round pick, who had prototypical size, did?

I see McCoy as a backup who I would hope not to have to start more than 1 or 2 games. I don;t see him as a starter. What do you see that makes you think that he will improve? (and not "continue to", because he regressed greatly this past season)

To be fair ... Quinn had an offseason (two in fact - he was in his third year). He also had Braylon to start the year and a better backfield than Colt had ... but that's just sort of reaching for straws after that.

Colt was a 3rd round talent.. yes.. but he was projected to go in the 1st-2nd by most reputable sites. Regardless of where he was drafted, the guy won games at Texas, something Quinn did not do much of at Notre Dame. Quinn had Charle Weis on his side and the term "NFL ready" attached to his waste side. That is why Savage jumped back up to get him. I still don't think Quinn got a fair shot either though. He should have gotten another season. The only QB as of late that got a full shot to show his growth was Charli Frye.. and what round was he selected?

Colt deserves a 2nd shot at this new WCO with a full off-season. He's a winner. Watch and see.

yes, he was considered a possible late 1st more likely 2nd round pick by most sites but his shoulder injury threw a monkey wrench into things.

"He was projected ......" means nothing at all ...... because he went in the 3rd.

The media tried to hype him, but in the end there wasn't a whole lot to hype, and NFL teams knew it. That's why he lasted until the 3rd round.

Charlie Frye got too much time too. (He for 18 starts, which is fewer than McCoy) 2 wrongs would not make a right. It's time to go get a real NFL QB, and stop trying to make something out of a guy with major structural flaws in his game.

Well, the shoulder injury didn't do him in. His overall package caused him to slip. Had he been in possession of all the tools a 1st round QB should possess, he would have gone in the 1st round. He fell to the 3rd because he didn't possess any one 1st-round tool.

And without that shoulder injury, he would have gone a LOT higher than he did... and he wouldn't have still been recovering from lost arm strength the first two years.



Which reminds me of something from early in the season - I recall it being said at the start of this past season that his arm/shoulder was feeling a lot better, and I could see it on the zip he put on some of his throws... then, for whatever reason, we didn't see so much of that during the season and I'm wondering if he might have tweaked or aggravated it.

Not saying anything, really... more just wondering aloud.

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Colt was a 3rd round talent.. yes.. but he was projected to go in the 1st-2nd by most reputable sites.

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Yup,, thats correct. So, what does that mean for scouting sites? LOL

Tannehill may actually be the 2nd best QB this year.. or as in the case of Rogers vs Smith,, he may end up being the best this year..

Major structural flaws. Hmmmm I just watched a bit of RG's game tapes.

Dude takes off out of the pocket WAY too soon - but that's good, right?

He takes a lot of hits.

He has a hitch in his wind up too often.

He misses or misthrows too often. (I watched open receivers have to dive for the ball, or have to plant and stop, and reach back).

He does, often, hit WIDE open receivers. When they are wide open.

But, he did get the heisman. And he's smart.

Cool. Send the video you watched to Washington.

So arch ....... what do you want the Browns to do? Let's get you nailed down for once. What do you see as their best option? What would you do if you were in charge, and what do you want to see them do?

No waffling ... no prevaricating .... no equivocation ...... just what would you do, and what do you hope the Browns do?

Oh - but you asked what I want the Browns to do: I want them to do as they see fit. And if RG is here, I'll root for him. If he's not, I'm not going to gripe and gripe about it.

However, due in large part to you - IF he ends up here, I will expect a 10 win season next year (in a different thread you compared what cam did - going from 2 wins to 6, as being equal to RG being here and getting us 12 wins - so I'm actually being kind in only wanting 10 wins next year if we have RG)

Further, I would expect, IF we get RG - that not ONE single person on here will ever bring up a lack of a running game, or the lack of receivers. If they do, they are 2 faced dolts. Period.

Look, ytown - YOU have built this guy up as the answer. IF, he comes here - and we don't win 10 games, well, how does crow taste?

Why would you take him if you don't believe he's "all that"? "At least to shut people up" isn't really a very good reason to do anything.

If the Browns cannot get RG3, what do you do with the QB position? Do you stay with McCoy, draft a different QB to be the starter, draft a different QB to be the backup, sign a different QB to be the starter or backup ...... what would your solution be?

What would you expect to see out of the QB position, whether we draft a guy, sign a guy, or stay with Colt McCoy? What is a reasonable expectation for the QB next year? Is it different if we draft a guy, stay with McCoy, or bring in a veteran, or do you have the same expectations no matter what we do? What would a good year for our QB look like?

I'm just curious as to where you stand on things.

I have never said that anyone should get us to 12 wins.

What I said was that what Newton did, tripling Carolina's wins from 2-6 would be like a QB taking us from 4-12 wins. Not once did I ever say that I expected anyone to take us to 12 wins.

This is why I hate talking football with you sometimes. You get your head so set in one direction that no matter what someone says, you have already decided what they have said.
So .... other than giving the QB "18 games", you have no opinion as to what would make a successful year, or an unsuccessful year?

OK, I'll put my opinion out there so that you can twist and misquote me again .......

What I would be looking for with a different QB would be a QB who can see the field, read the defense, diagnose the play, and then make plays in the passing game. This would be evidenced by whether or not receivers are able to catch the ball while in stride, if the single covered receivers are involved in the passing game, is the QB throwing accurate passes, or are they off target, forcing the receiver to break stride, or turn back from where he is supposed to run after the catch, if we are able to attack teams down the field, in addition to standard, shorter, WCO type throws, how much our scoring improves, (and I am looking for middle of the pack, at least) and things like that. I don't know if I can quantify what exact numbers I want to see out of the QB position, but I would probably expect a little more from someone with experience, whether it's McCoy or someone else. I would be looking more for results from such a QB, whereas a rookie, whether RG3 or a different rookie, I would be looking for how he does things .... does he go to the right place with the ball, is he attacking the defense, or playing a passive game, how does the defense play us, do they dare us to beat them down the field while we throw 5 yard sit down routes, or do they have to get more aggressive as the year progresses to stop us? These are some of the criteria I would use to determine whether or not the QB, rookie or pro, is doing his job.

What would you look for? How would you judge whether next year's QB is successful or not?