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I watched RG3 against Rice and was less impressed than I was Tannehill against Northwestern.
Yes the potential ceiling on RG3 is higher somewhat.
But what Tannehill is providing is solid mechanics, a good NFL arm, elite NFL athleticism, prototypical size and experience in our offense.
I don't love his release point but I don't mind it.
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Btw. I hope we draft Marecic's replacement his year. Anyone up on the top WCO FB prospects?
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Unlike RG3 who is flawless, Tannehill has work to do even though he is from a pro system, has better footwork and mechanics, better arm, better pocket presence, is also very intelligent and a tremendous athlete in his own right.
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Quote:
Unlike RG3 who is flawless, Tannehill has work to do even though he is from a pro system, has better footwork and mechanics, better arm, better pocket presence, is also very intelligent and a tremendous athlete in his own right.
hope that's not at me. i have been vocal about the RGIII risks too (long release, system he played in, etc.)
Tannehill has looked lost against any decent defense. So, unless we import the 90s Cowboys OL and Emmitt, I don't like him (especially at #4 - I wouldn't mind him at #37, but there's no way he lasts that long after Locker & Gabbert went so high last year).
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If RG3 had Aaron Rodgers mechanics he would be a great NFL prospect. Certainly worth the #2.
He needs a year on the bench. It would help him immensely.
Problem is he's now the savior. Wherever he goes he's going to be starting Day 1.
I am a fan. He makes the game very exciting. Electric even.
I hope it works out for him here or elsewhere.
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It wasn't to you but more in general reply. There are those that have this expectation of this flawless QB who is gonna come in here and be Cam Newton. It is a backlash from all the heat Newton took last year with the whole black QB thing so this year a lot of folks and 99% of the media are building this kid up to fail.
He has warts, it is going to take him time to develop into a decent QB. Its funny last years QBs were all years away from being there but the media has this years group of QB in the hall of fame already. Tannehil needs a lot of work and so does RG3 and even the chosen one Andrew Luck.
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Quote:
It is a backlash from all the heat Newton took last year with the whole black QB thing
huh?
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Cam's off-field red flags got him grouped directly in with JaMarcus Russell despite the fact that all of his coaches said he was a hard worker on the field.
His off-field stuff scared me (not just the pay-for-play by his dad, but the stealing laptops at Florida, the academic cheating, etc.). When you add that onto the spread-offense he played in, etc. I didn't think he'd have as much of an impact as he did.
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Any rookie QB needs work ..... but Luck and RG3 are both almost certainly Day 1 starters.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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that's fair enough and inevitable with the media focusing so much on the polished RGIII (from a media/interview perspective not a football one). for Cam, he wasn't polished and still needs work too. after those 3 out of first 4 weeks (Jax kept him in check) he never approached the pinball score numbers again. he was still extremely valuable and getting 1-2 yards was virtually guaranteed with him up the middle, but he wasn't winging it all over the field like some seem to think either. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00/gamelog//
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Quote:
Any rookie QB needs work ..... but Luck and RG3 are both almost certainly Day 1 starters.
I can see a team sitting RGIII at first. Rivers sat, Carson Palmer sat. It's not unprecedented.
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Quote:
Cam's off-field red flags got him grouped directly in with JaMarcus Russell despite the fact that all of his coaches said he was a hard worker on the field.
His off-field stuff scared me (not just the pay-for-play by his dad, but the stealing laptops at Florida, the academic cheating, etc.). When you add that onto the spread-offense he played in, etc. I didn't think he'd have as much of an impact as he did.
I remember some off field issues, just never it being a "black thing"
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Quote:
Quote:
Cam's off-field red flags got him grouped directly in with JaMarcus Russell despite the fact that all of his coaches said he was a hard worker on the field.
His off-field stuff scared me (not just the pay-for-play by his dad, but the stealing laptops at Florida, the academic cheating, etc.). When you add that onto the spread-offense he played in, etc. I didn't think he'd have as much of an impact as he did.
I remember some off field issues, just never it being a "black thing"
lazy media grouped him with Russell instead of Leaf.
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I appreciate your input, but I want to hear Mourgrym's reply
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It is a backlash from all the heat Newton took last year with the whole black QB thing so this year a lot of folks and 99% of the media are building this kid up to fail.
You're right... a white QB who runs a 4.4, has big time arm strength, touch to all levels, led his doormat program to an all-time high in wins, is known as a leader with a strong work ethic, is taller than Matt Stafford and Aaron Rodgers, and completed over 72% of his passes with a 6:1 TD-INT ratio in a BCS conference wouldn't be considered a top pick.
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jk Thought this was interesting and that this was probably the best thread to put it in: John Keim of the Washington Examiner and Grant Paulsen of 106.7 The Fan in D.C. both believe Texas A&M Ryan Tannehill will be a strong consideration at No. 6 overall if the Redskins don't trade out. Keim even heard from one NFL source that a team might leapfrog the Skins to draft Tannehill at No. 5. Tannehill is clearly the No. 3 quarterback in the draft, and QB-needy teams could get trigger happy after Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III go 1-2. Tannehill's skill set is considered an ideal fit for the Washington's offense because he is athletic and throws accurately on the run. http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Quote:
jk
Thought this was interesting and that this was probably the best thread to put it in:
John Keim of the Washington Examiner and Grant Paulsen of 106.7 The Fan in D.C. both believe Texas A&M Ryan Tannehill will be a strong consideration at No. 6 overall if the Redskins don't trade out.
Keim even heard from one NFL source that a team might leapfrog the Skins to draft Tannehill at No. 5. Tannehill is clearly the No. 3 quarterback in the draft, and QB-needy teams could get trigger happy after Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III go 1-2. Tannehill's skill set is considered an ideal fit for the Washington's offense because he is athletic and throws accurately on the run.
http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football
I'd be mighty surprised...
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Actually, I could see Luck going #1 to Indy, RGIII going #2 to Washington then a 3rd team trading up to #3 to take Tannehill ahead of us.
I am not a Tannehill fan (nor RGIII for that matter) but when it comes to Qb's teams tend to go a little crazy on draft day.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
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wonder if he read it in the speculation article of that other DC newspaper that Mourg's story referenced.
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Quote:
I appreciate your input, but I want to hear Mourgrym's reply
Even though auburn's coaches was publicly and privately telling anyone that would listen that Cam was a great kid and a great team leader that matured before their eyes, no one seemed to want to give the kid a chance. Every action was taken as selfish and grandiose. Superman sign, just look at this kids ego lol How dare he act like this.
Hell he was ripped on for celebrating with the fans. Every single time he did something positive, Vince Young, Jamarcus Russell was brought up. They picked apart this kid in every way imaginable.
I know all of us have pretty good debates on these kids but it is in fun and it is a cheap hobby minus NFL sunday ticket lol. Most try to be very reasonable about a kids positives and negatives but the media last year when it came to Cam Newton it was brutal and most of it was very unfair.
I think a lot of them have looked back at what happened and have really gone to the other extreme to prove they aren't racists.
Hell I like RG3, he is a terrific kid and one of the most dynamic players I have ever had the privilege to watch perform but he has many areas he must correct in order to have success. I bet I have heard this kid is a day star mentioned a 1000 times on tv in the past week. I don't believe I have heard scheme, footwork, mechanics mentioned once.
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All Pro
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I only watched about a 3rd of the video so take that into consideration, but other than the first throw, most of his throws seemed late. If not late, then he may lack the zip to get get it there on time.
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Quote:
Quote:
jk
Thought this was interesting and that this was probably the best thread to put it in:
John Keim of the Washington Examiner and Grant Paulsen of 106.7 The Fan in D.C. both believe Texas A&M Ryan Tannehill will be a strong consideration at No. 6 overall if the Redskins don't trade out.
Keim even heard from one NFL source that a team might leapfrog the Skins to draft Tannehill at No. 5. Tannehill is clearly the No. 3 quarterback in the draft, and QB-needy teams could get trigger happy after Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III go 1-2. Tannehill's skill set is considered an ideal fit for the Washington's offense because he is athletic and throws accurately on the run.
http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football
I'd be mighty surprised...
It seems like at least every other year (if not more frequently) there are the blue-chip QB's prospects, then the second tiered guys who go flying up the charts because teams are desperate for QB's. Last year THREE QB's went higher than they should have in Gabbert, Ponder, and Locker.
In 2010 it was Tebow.
In 2009 it was Sanchez.
In 2008 it was Flacco.
In 2007 it was Quinn. (I don't care what people had to say about the reports, many of us thought he was no better than a mid-2nd rounder at the time.)
In 2006 the Titans took Vince Young. (Again, any organization who thought he was a 1st rounder were idiots)
In 2004 it was JP Losman. Remember him?
In 2003 it was Kyle Boller and Rex Grossman. Ack.
That's enough of that, hehe. The point is that teams who are DESPERATE for a "franchise QB" go reaching WAAAAY too early for some of these cats. Tannehill has all the tools, but he's a developmental guy. That makes him a 2nd rounder to me. Yeah, yeah, I'm  I've seen just too many prospects go way too early because they are QB's. Tannehill is going to go WAAAY too early because of his tools, and that's a HUGE gamble for whichever team takes him if he goes in the top-10.
I sure as Hell hope that isn't us.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I see a kid with the potential to be a franchise QB. Now the next guy may see a day 2 prospect. That is just how it works and that is how it works for teams as well. You draft according to how good you think a kid will become. I know most fans hate the word upside but that is what each general manager is looking for and looking to avoid the finished product. RG3 and Tannehill have the great upside. Tannehill is a better prospect than Locker, Gabbert and Ponder. Look at where they went last year. I consider Tannehill a top 10 pick in any draft, its just he rest of the world catching on late 
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Hehehe. 
You know who you're reminding me of with your Tannehill pimping? Me when I was the #1 Aaron Rodgers pimp, absolutely demanding that the Browns find a way to take him no matter what. 
You were out in front of him the way I was out in front of Rodgers. Time will tell if you're right.
Still, Tannehill is this year's version of those guys. He's going to go higher than he should. Whichever team takes him will be throwing some serious dice.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Tannehill at 4 would be worse than Ponder at 12 last year. It takes a LOT for me to say this but I'd rather have Flynn if this is the case. At least with Flynn we're not reaching to the heavens for him and he's NFL ready.
Tannehill will be 24 to start the season with only 19 starts under his belt. Under Mike Sherman (who we almost hired as OC) he lost the QB competition to freaking UDFA Jerrod Johnson THREE times before Johnson finally played so poorly that Sherman went to Tannehill halfway through 2010. Anyone saying he wouldn't be a project is crazy. On top of this he's coming off a broken foot and might not even be able to work out.
If we're taking him in the late 1st/early 2nd then whatever... I'll be bummed we missed out on RGIII but I can stomach that. If we take him at #4 without trading out, my head might explode. Reaching in the draft is bad. Reaching in the Top 5 are inexcusable.
We're... we're good?
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Some guys just have that IT quality. Can't describe it but you know it when you see it. I also know when I don't see it. This is why I thought this draft class was special for quarterbacks. It is a rare group at the top.
When is the last time we have had 3 QB's with
Above average arms
intelligence
Tremendous athleticism
Great pocket presence
Fearlessness delivering the ball under pressure
accuracy on the run and all look to throw instead of run
These are big time prospects. Now they aint perfect and I have pointed out the flaws these guys do possess but this is our chance to turn this thing around. I wouldnt trade the bank for RG3 but I can understand why people are willing to do so and I think Tannehill is the better prospect for this system so everyone should know why I wouldnt hesitate to spend the 4 on the QB.
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So Mourg(nice work) U refer Tanny over Griff, or U feel that they do?
I think they like Griff,they just want to smoke Snead into thinking his price is too high and they don't have to be handcuffed into bidding for him.
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I prefer RT to RG for this scheme and I would not be surprised if the Browns feel that way as well but never know. Vertical stretch I probably take RG3 over Luck
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I think RG can play in our WCO, if several things happen.
1-Browns have to open it up to go downfield.Other teams who run the scheme have QB's with strong arms and can go downfield.
2-RG must refine his skills..and be able to make those quick hits and read the pre-snap sets .
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I'm just curious for all the pro RG3 crowd - anti Tannehill crowd:
What is Tannehill's biggest weakness?
RG3's biggest weakness is his footwork when throwing the football.
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Quote:
I'm just curious for all the pro RG3 crowd - anti Tannehill crowd:
What is Tannehill's biggest weakness?
RG3's biggest weakness is his footwork when throwing the football.
There are two:
1-lack of experience playing QB
2-decision making in crucial situations
# 2 is a direct result of # 1
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He's a freakin' Aggie, and I ain't havin' no freakin' Aggie as the QB of MY Cleveland Browns. :P
Ok, now that I've got that outa my system...
I don't see a dynamic passer. I see Chad Henne. I've not seen him read coverages and find second or third receivers if the first guy isn't there. That's a major flaw with Mccoy. Once the first read is gone, the success rate goes waaay down. That could be a product of experience. It could also be a permanent problem. I just don't know. I see Griffin looking for second and third reads not only in the pocket, but when scrambling away from pressure. I don't see Tannehill do in clutch time what 1st round qb's are supposed to do.
All the tools are there. I just haven't seen enough to warrant such a high investment. Get him in the second with a viable "now" starter so Tannehill can sit for a while and my tune changes.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I don't disagree with your point - but you're cherry-picking an awful lot there:
For instance, the "late riser" in the 2006 draft was Cutler, not Vince Young, who had been pushed out as a high first rounder for over a year.
Same with Quinn in 2007 - Russell was the guy who got pushed up at the end (which is actually better for your point) - Quinn had been "top 5" forever.
~Lyuokdea
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Yeah, Young was bought on that absolutely idiotic abstract of "but he's just a winner!" BS. However, he did go flying up the boards because of that. It just happened earlier than what I expressed as the premise.
As for Quinn, it's my opinion that was media driven and never reality. He was never a top-10 guy.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The late riser stuff is super rare. It is most often the media undervalued a prospect to begin with. Dontari Poe I had top 10 in my first mock. Now he is this late riser from out of nowhere, but that wasn't true. Hell if I notice a kids freakish talent, you can bet your ass scouts and general managers noticed it as well.
Tannehill was top 10 on my board for most of the year, Kiper and crew had him 2nd round or beyond. He hasn't thrown a football with people watching in 2 months yet he suddenly has shot into the top 10. He was already there they just didnt notice his skill level.
There are guys they miss evaluate that catches their eye at the post season bowls and combines and prodays but they dont happen very often.
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Yes as we know draft boards are already set before the combine dispite whats said..it's the media mock draft sites that shuffle these prospects ..the scouts/GMs already have them ranked..
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Quote:
I prefer RT to RG for this scheme and I would not be surprised if the Browns feel that way as well but never know. Vertical stretch I probably take RG3 over Luck
Our offense is supposed to have "go" plays in many of the packages. (if single covered)
Hell, the "basic" play that Gruden drew up with RG3 had the left outside receiver going deep, and if the QB sees single coverage, that's hie "new #1 read" regardless of the rest of the field.
Almost everything I find on the West Coast offense shows the same things. There is a receiver who is not in the "3 progression" who moves to "1" against single coverage in many plays. That route is almost always a deep route, and sometimes can include 2 similar routes, one player inside the other, where the QB has to see which receiver is "hot" by who has single coverage and who does not.
Some plays have mirrors on the outside, where both outside receivers run the same route, but many have a hot read for single coverage.
We are missing those plays, and throws.
Most receivers are open somewhere, at some point in their route. The key is getting the ball to the spot where they are open, when they are open. This is the responsibility of the QB. There are some DBs who can take a receiver out of a play no matter what is run, but almost always a receiver is open over/under, inside/out. The QB needs to get the ball to those open spots when that's what he is faced with. Using college tape, this is what RG3 did so well in college .... hitting receivers over the top against single or double coverage, into the "bucket", away from the defender. Whether someone believe that his abilities transfer to the NFL or not, that is a throw that can easily translate to the WCO.
In the WCO offense, from everything that I have read, man to man routes are always going to be moving routes. Routes against zone are going to be routes where the receiver settles down in a zone and waits for the ball. Both can, and do occur on almost every play. If the outside receiver not in the 3 progression, who is running a go or other deep pattern is single covered then he is supposed to become the new 1st receiver in progression. The QB must be able to read and identify coverage in order to see this though. He must see either man, or zone with a Safety lurking, waiting for a throw into double coverage. If it's zone, then he needs to go through his 3 progression, and if none are open, can come back to that read route if he has time.
I do not think that a strong arm eliminates RG3 from consideration in the WCO. Rather, I think that it enhances what the WCO does. A strong arm can draw double coverage to that go route, opening up single coverage on the other routes, allowing the QB to his receivers in stride instead of as stationary targets and can lead to more big plays.
I sometimes think that people believe that the WCO can have a noodle armed QB (and I am NOT calling Tannehill a noodle armed QB) and still be successful. A weaker armed QB will still have a negative impact on the deeper throws that are going to be open from time to time. The QB who is able to more quickly deliver the ball, if the "read speed" is close, will always have the advantage. It's not pure arm strength on all throws, but being able to zip a ball in vs being able to float one in can be the difference between a completion or an incompletion, and the difference between a play that goes for 8 yards and one that goes for 38 yards. The WCO is going to require the QB to read the defense, from pre-snap to progressions throughout the play. Just because a guy has a stronger arm does not mean that he cannot do this.
JMESHO
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I do not think that a strong arm eliminates RG3 from consideration in the WCO. Rather, I think that it enhances what the WCO does.
Did you come up with this theory all on your own? lol RG3's arm strength doesnt have anything to do with the questions about him in this scheme. I give up.
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When I see RGIII, I see more McNabb and Rodgers, than any other QB's. But with far better wheels, better than Steve Young, Not quite Michael Vick.
I think he can work with the WCO, McNabb was a better QB than the WCO offense required, streaky yes, but he could really stretch the field.
I lamented the Browns not taking McNabb in 99, I thought he would be a better choice than Couch because of the wheels, but that is water over the falls.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,532 |
What do you feel makes Tannehill a better WCO prospect?
I'll say what I have seen, and you can respond, if you like.
I love RG3's arm, and his accuracy. He can throw to all levels of the field, and can put the ball on the hands of his receivers.
He can hit stationary receivers, and receivers in motion.
He can make the throws that a QB must make against single coverage, and can make the over the top basket throw, on target, which I consider to be one of the more difficult throws for a QB to make.
He does move through progressions, though not in as structured a system of progression as exists in the WCO.
He can throw on the move if necessary.
He does a nice job with ball placement, not generally hanging his receivers out to dry.
He has appropriate size.
He rarely makes "Doh!" type throws. He generally appears to play under control, even when pressured.
His throws allow receivers to make plays after the catch.
I do think that he needs work to make his release far more consistent, and that he needs to learn that me must avoid the big hit in the NFL. While his release is sometimes spotty, his accuracy is usually there .... which means that he has potential to become even more accurate.
As far as Tannehill, my concerns are:
Lack of real world playing experience.
Lack of an elite arm, although he does appear to have a decent arm.
His mechanics sometimes come completely unglued when pressured.
Looking at his games this past year, I wonder about his ability to make plays down the field.
On the plus side, he did play against some quality teams. He did a solid job when thrown into the fire, making a difficult transition from WR to QB. I think that he has average type tools. However, I look at him compared to the other 3 top QBs, and I come away unimpressed.
Both Luck and RG3 were over 70% with their passing. Luck threw 35 TD to 9 INT. RG3 threw 37 TD and only 6 INT. Both Luck and RG3 had far better yards/.pass attempt. Tannehill played behind what appears to be a really solid OL. He was sacked only 9 times this past year. Despite this, he was pressured into mistakes. What happens when the pressure starts hitting him from all sides?
I see an inexperienced QB, with roughly average tools, good size, decent accuracy, who basically needs to be built. He is nowhere near a finished product, and so he must somehow develop while receiving backup or even 3rd string reps. This guy needs to play, but he's not ready to play. He needs a lot of work.
Maybe he'll become a guy who proves me completely wrong .... maybe not. I just see a ton of concerns with regards to Tannehill ..... and I see only bad things, like him being thrown into the fire way before he's reaqdy, if we draft him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Mour's Mock v. 5
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