DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Saints' Defense had "Bounty Fund"...

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Between 22 and 27 defensive players on the New Orleans Saints, as well as at least one assistant coach, maintained a "bounty" program funded primarily by players in violation of NFL rules during the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons, the NFL announced Friday.

The investigation by the league's security department determined that an improper "pay for performance" program included "bounty" payments to players for inflicting injuries on opposing players that would result in them being removed from a game.

The findings, corroborated by multiple independent sources, have been presented to commissioner Roger Goodell, who will determine the appropriate discipline.

"It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated," Goodell said.

"We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it."

Not surprising at all.
What is surprising, however, is that they've only managed to uncover this on one team.

My guess is that some disgruntled former player acted out a resentment and chirped to the league about this.

Wow, if it had been anyone, I thought it would have been Detroit.

Now, let's say that the league takes away the Saints' 1st round draft pick as punishment. This year, the Saints don't have a no. 1 since they traded it to the Pats. I would imagine the league would just take the 2013 pick away so as not to punish the Pats.

Also, I think they're going to get pretty hard monetarily, maybe even some suspensions for players and/or coaches who knew about it, which would suck for the Rams now that they have Gregg Williams.

I wouldnt be surprised at all if this goes on to some degree in every locker room

Part of me thinks that the coaches who knew and did nothing to stop it should be suspended and fined. We have former players suing the NFL for past injuries. If a coach, representing the NFL, allows this to go on, then he should be held liable.

What's sad is most of these guys are making millions already to do their job well and then the coaches offer a 1000.00 to 1500.00 to do it better ? Your job IS to hurt someone, legally.....

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Wow, if it had been anyone, I thought it would have been Detroit.

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first thing that came to mind was the Steelers...

*Edit to put in complete story now that it's up.

The National Football League on Friday found the New Orleans Saints guilty of a wide-ranging system of bounty payments to between 22 and 27 defensive players from 2009 through 2011, and player-safety-conscious commissioner Roger Goodell could bring the hammer down very hard on the franchise.

The most alarming finding by the league, according to one club source who was briefed on the investigation late Friday afternoon, was this: Before the 2009 NFC Championship Game, Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma offered any defensive teammate $10,000 in cash to knock then-Vikings quarterback Brett Favre out of the game. Favre was hit viciously several times in the game. Favre told SI.com Friday evening: "I'm not pissed. It's football. I don't think anything less of those guys."

The details of Vilma's offer were in a report to the 32 NFL owners, sent out by the league to detail further what the league's 50,000-page investigation found.

Early indications late Friday afternoon were that the sanctions against the Saints and their former defensive coordinator who the league said administered the bounties, Gregg Williams, will be severe. The league said the penalties could include suspensions, fines and loss of draft choices -- the latter of which could be particularly damaging to the Saints, who do not own a first-round pick this year. Their first choice will be late in the second round, the 59th overall ... unless Goodell takes the pick away.

Goodell is angry about this sustained use of paying players to hurt players on other teams. There's little doubt the penalties on the Saints will be worse than what the league did to the Patriots for the Spygate scandal in 2007. Coach Bill Belichick was fined $500,000 and the franchise fined $250,000 and docked a first-round draft choice for videotaping opponents' signals during games in violation of league rules. It would not be surprising, judging by the seriousness of the findings, that Williams, recently hired as the defensive coordinator of the Rams, would face a multi-game suspension.

At 5:30 p.m. ET on Friday, Williams issued an apology: "I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the 'pay for performance' program while I was with the Saints," Williams said. "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again."

A stern Goodell and a team of NFL officials -- league counsel Jeff Pash and NFL Security officials who headed up the investigation -- summoned Saints coach Sean Payton and general manager Mickey Loomis to New York Thursday to inform them of the seriousness of the investigation. Then Pash flew to New Orleans Thursday night to brief Saints owner Tom Benson.

Payton, the league says, was not "a direct participant'' in the bounty program but was aware of it and did nothing to stop it. Loomis could be in more trouble. The league claims Loomis was told by Benson to stop the program and didn't.

The league said there was an initial investigation, after the 2009 season, into a bounty system led by Williams that could not be corroborated. Then, Goodell said "significant and credible'' new information was forthcoming late in the 2011 season that led to the findings the league acted on Friday. Those conclusions found that Saints players were paid off-the-books incentives for some outstanding performances such as interceptions -- obviously in violation of the league's salary cap -- as well as $1,000 and $1,500 payments for injuring opposing players.

"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for performance, but also for injuring opposing players," Goodell said in a league statement Friday afternoon. The bounty rule, Goodell said, protects "two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity. It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated. We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it."

The league, led by director of investigative services Joe Hummel and chief league security officer Jeff Miller, discovered these violations:

• Players pooled their own money to fund the bounty club, and players were paid $1,500 if a foe was knocked out of the game, and $1,000 if an opponent was carted off the field.

• Between 22 and 27 players contributed to the bounty pool over a three-year period, with amounts guaranteed if a certain opposing player was knocked out of the game.

• Williams occasionally reached into his own pocket to contribute to the bounty pool.

• Benson said when he was informed of the new and credible evidence that the bounty program was going strong after the 2011 season, he directed Loomis to make sure the program ceased. "There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices,'' the league's statement said.

Surprisingly, the biggest target of the bounties, Favre, wasn't upset about the news when reached Friday night. He said bounties are a part of the game. "Said or unsaid, guys do it anyway," Favre said. "If they can drill you and get you out [of the game], they will."

Since mid-2010, when a spate of head injuries ratcheted up the NFL's attention to player safety, Goodell has been nearly manic about player safety. The league has heavily fined players for excessive and late hits on players, and Goodell's relationship with many prominent players in the league has been radically affected because of it. That's why the penalties in this case will be significantly more severe -- almost certainly -- than what was levied on the Patriots four seasons ago. It's hard enough for players to stay on the field in the first place, never mind when a team is purposely trying to injure them.

That's why you can expect Goodell to issue the most severe penalties of his six-year reign on the Saints as soon as late this month. Players will be watching this case closely, particularly heavily fined players like James Harrison. If Williams gets away without a six-figure fine plus suspension, players will think Goodell is softer on the ringleaders than the players.

Messages to Williams, Payton and Loomis were not immediately returned to SI.com Friday afternoon. Saints owner Tom Benson issued this statement: "I have been made aware of the NFL's findings relative to the 'Bounty Rule' and how it relates to our club. I have offered and the NFL has received our full cooperation in their investigation. While the findings may be troubling, we look forward to putting this behind us and winning more championships in the future for our fans."

It could be a while, a long while, before the findings, as Benson calls them, can be put behind the Saints.

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This just ticks me off. The Vikes had it that year, and they beat Favre like a rag doll. It was speculated that he would have had a tough timing even playing in the superbowl, they beat him up so badly.

I say, take their draft picks. Split them up between the cards, vikes and colts- All of the teams they beat on their tarnished superbowl run.

Fine Peyton- didn't Belichick get hit with $500,000 for spy gate. I'd double it easily.
Suspend Williams- yeah, i know it hurts the rams, but this kind of thing can not be tolerated.
Hit the GM and owner hard also.
Maybe they should just pull an NCAA thing, and strip them of the title!!!

It appears the Redskins had a similar program as well under....Gregg Williams. I bet the Rams are rethinking their new hire right about now. I wouldn't be surprised if they just fired him and tried to find a way out of their contract.

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Washington Redskins, New Orleans Saints had bounty systems that paid for big hits [updated]
By Mark Maske
[UPDATED at 6 p.m. EST]

The Washington Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams that was similar to the one revealed by an NFL investigation of the New Orleans Saints, four players who played under Williams said Friday.

Three of the players described a coach who doled out thousands of dollars to Redskins defenders who measured up to Williams’s scoring system for rugged play, including “kill shots” that knocked opposing teams’stars out of a game.

“You got compensated more for a kill shot than you did other hits,” said one former player, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Of the four players interviewed, only Philip Daniels, a former defensive lineman, was willing to be quoted on the record. He defended Williams’s coaching. Daniels now serves as the team’s director of player development.

Players said compensation ranged from “hundreds to thousands of dollars,” with the biggest sum any player received believed to be about $8,000.

“I never took it for anything [but] just incentive to make good, hard plays,” said a current player, who requested anonymity. “But I’m pretty sure it did entice some guys to do more to a player than normal when it came to taking them out. I mean, that’s cash. Let’s just be honest about it.

“If you took the star player out, he’d hook you up a little bit.”

The Redskins declined to comment through team spokesman Tony Wyllie.

Daniels said he believed Williams began the program with money from fines collected from players for being late for meetings or practices. “Rather than pocket that money or whatever, he would re-distribute it to players who had good games or good practices.”

He said the most he ever received was $1,500 for a four-sack game against the Dallas Cowboys in 2005.

“I think it is wrong the way they’re trying to paint [Williams],” Daniels added. “He never told us to go out there and break a guy’s neck or break a guy’s leg. It was all in the context of a good, hard football.”

He acknowledged Williams’s system for awarding players’ cash featured more money for what Williams’ deemed “physical play.” “Sean Taylor made a lot,” he said of the hard-hitting safety who was killed in his Miami home in 2007.

The other three players interviewed portrayed Williams as a “coach who just took it a little too far,” in the words of one.

“He actually had a saying, ‘If you cut the snake’s head off, the body will die,’ that was his motto,” said the player. “It was made clear that he was talking about not just running backs who turned their heads the opposite way and how they would go down, but also about other stars on offense that were the best players on that team.”

The NFL announced Friday that the Saints operated an improper bounty program that paid players as much as $1,500 for hits that injured opposing players.

The program, administered by Williams, also a former defensive coordinator there, paid $1500 for a “knockout” hit and $1000 if an opponent was carted off the field between 2009 and 2011, the NFL said. Most of the money was contributed by players, but Williams also donated to the fund.

In a statement, Williams apologized for what he called a “pay for performance” program while he was with the Saints.

“It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it,” Williams said in the statement, which was published on nola.com. “Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role.”

I wonder if they'll go after the team for salary cap violations, too.

Hockey has people that get paid to hurt others...not saying its ok, just saying...

If you're talking about the "fighters" or enforcers, the line gets a little blurry there. Those guys are there to protect their skill guys from cheap shots from other teams (admittedly, by going out and fighting the guys that would be giving the cheap shots). As a hockey player, I don't really see it as the same thing as what the article is describing.

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Dungy: Titans had a bounty on Peyton Manning
Posted by Mike Florio on March 2, 2012, 8:35 PM EST

Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams had a bounty on Colts quarterback Peyton Manning in Super Bowl XLIV. But while it didn’t result in an injury to Manning, his former coach in Indianapolis believes it wasn’t the first time that knocking Peyton out of a game would have gotten a player paid.

Tony Dungy of NBC’s Football Night in America tells PFT that he believes the Titans had put a bounty on Manning.

“I know they had them in Tennessee,” Dungy said via text.

Williams worked for the Oilers/Titans through 2000 under coach Jeff Fisher. Dungy became coach of the Colts in 2002, when a realignment of the divisions put the Colts and Titans in the newly-created AFC South, pitting the two teams against each other twice per season.

Coincidentally, Fisher and Williams have now been reunited, in St. Louis. Which will make even more interesting a decision by Manning to sign with one of the Rams’ NFC West rivals: the Cardinals, Seahawks, or 49ers.

Even more coincidentally, Dungy explained during a 2011 preseason edition of Football Night in America that he believes a 2006 hit on Peyton Manning first caused his ongoing neck problems.

The man delivering the hit? Phillip Daniels. His team? The Redskins.

The defensive coordinator at the time? Gregg Williams.

That said, Dungy emphasized that he doesn’t know whether the Redskins were using bounties under Williams. But Dungy was clear in his belief that the Titans used such a system.

This is interesting.. Williams "mans up" and apologizes for the role he played in NO but curiously omits mentioning that he might have had a role in Washington..

Hmm.. sounds like he's "manning up" and apologizing because he got caught in NO.. and neglected to mention Wash because he didn't realize he'd been outted in Wash..

What a weasel..

For as much as people are slamming this ...... we all know that if a member of the Browns put Roethlisberger down and out, and then got a little player bonus, most wouldn't care one bit.

IIRC, the Vikings had a similar system at one point, along with other teams. Player fines would go into the system, and then they would dole them back out as rewards for "big hits", and such.

When does it so over the line ..... when they stipulate that a player must be carted off? That he doesn't return to the game? That he walks with a limp for the rest of the season? How about if they just reward "big hits"? What are "big hits"?

I debated this point last year with people, when Suh was suspended. People argued vehemently that he shouldn't have been suspended, and that they would love to have a guy like that on our team.

I argued that he hurts his team, and that his actions just create a situation where other players look for retribution against other guys on the team.

Too many people argued that side for it to be anything but a pretty good sized chunk of the fanbase.

I would rather have my team physically dominate the other guys, play hard, and beat the other team down so bad that it makes them fake injury just to get out of the game.

I'm surprised at the fact that the Ravens haven't been brought up yet.

Terrell Suggs openly discussed the bounty on Hines Ward.

I'd have paid that bounty myself.

As for the 'Aints, they have earned a reputation as being a BS franchise, going to their own drum and thumbing their collective noses at the league.

I'll tell you what I'd love to have happen, though it's ridiculous sounding...they should take away their ability to use any tag's.

Boy, would Brees have the leg up on them.

This isn't the only sport or level that does this

I don't see how the Saints - and any team where this situation (paying players specifically for hurting people) - can't get the smackdown from the NFL.

The NFL hands out suspensions and fines for things that happen in the moment - like Harrison, Suh, several others - how can they not severely punish those in management or coaching who have a pre-meditated policy and reward system?

The way the Commish has come down on players for violent hits with fines and suspensions, I can't see any other option here. If they can find proof that Williams has done this with more than one team, he should be banned for at least a season. Could there also be some criminal violations here? I mean, not as serious, but akin to hiring a hit man. Are they going all Jeff Giloolly on these guys? (The guy Tanya Harding hired to take out the competition.)

I know nothing of Hockey but are those guys trying to hurt someone or just get them into a penalty box?

I have a rather simple solution.

If you hit someone illegally, and knock the out of the game, then you have to sit out the rest of the game as well. If they are out for another game, 3 games, the rest of the season, then you sit out the same period of time, without pay.

A league approved doctor would confirm that the player is physically unable to play.

Under my plan, James Harrison would have been suspended for the final 3 games of the season for his hit on McCoy.

Would they likely lose their first round pick next year since New England owns their first round pick this year

Kinda doubt any bounty Harrison might have gotten would offset the $100K + he paid in fines.