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j/c
the more i read about this, and the more news that comes out- i just get more upset.
The point isn't that $$ was given for a good play, fumble recovery or an interception, or a sack. If a defense wants to have a friendly wager on that kind of stuff, fine. I don't think it tarnishes the league one bit.
But when a team is encouraging its players to hurt somebody, and rewarding them financially for accomplishing that task- that is over the line.
Loomis should be canned, Williams should be suspended for the year, picks should be stripped. PFT had a suggestion to remove the franchise tag from the saints. That would be awesome. Pay the man-- Drew Breese is that team, and now they are being cheap and yanking his chain.
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I have a rather simple solution.
If you hit someone illegally, and knock the out of the game, then you have to sit out the rest of the game as well. If they are out for another game, 3 games, the rest of the season, then you sit out the same period of time, without pay.
A league approved doctor would confirm that the player is physically unable to play.
Under my plan, James Harrison would have been suspended for the final 3 games of the season for his hit on McCoy.
I like it, but how do you adjust for accidental hits? maybe the answer is, if it's called a penalty,,, then that's the criteria?
Yep.
If it's a personal foul, or is a fine-able illegal hit. If it is a case where such a play is caught in review that causes injury where the hit player leaves the game, then maybe the player who hit him illegally has to sit out the next game.
It should only be for blatantly illegal hits that cause injury.
LOL I can see the frenzy of appeals mounting now....but generally,, I like the idea..
#GMSTRONG
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jc..
Looks like the investigation is following Williams whereever he coached...the Redskins and Bills are said to be under investigation by the NFL.
...not good for Coach Williams or the teams he coached for.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I always figured a bounty system existed on every team, but not for injury to an opponent rather for turnovers. That may not be exactly a 'bounty', but its one I think people could accept. A lot of players are friends with players on other teams and I didn't expect them to be eager to 'hurt' their friend intentionally. To be a 'coach-sanctioned' bounty is utter stupidity and such a classless move.
New Orleans doesn't have a 1st round pick this year, New England has it, but I would take their 2nd round pick this year, and their 1st round pick in 2013 (they lied to the investigators and got caught) Additionally I would fine the organization One Million dollars (at least), fine Sean Peyton $500k, the GM (Loomis) $750k (mostly for lying), and Greg Williams would also pay $500k. Those amounts are minimum, if the league goes higher that would be good. Now with the additional allegations coming from Washington and Buffalo about Williams having similar bounty systems I would additionally suspend Greg Williams for (at minimum) one year (sorry St Louis, but at least you don't have to pay him).
That may seem steep (a 2012 2nd pick, 2013 1st pick, and 2.75 million in fines, plus a suspension of a coach for one year) but consider all that the league is trying to do to make it a 'safer' game. Additionally, the pending lawsuits from former players, etc, this level of punishment would go a long way in public opinion, as well as sending a clear message to current and former players, that the league will do what it can to side with the players, and on the side of safety when something like this is discovered.
This is the sarcasm font right? I'm impressed this hasn't turned into a 'draft this guy' vs 'no don't' debate yet.  
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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would Washington and Buffalo get fines or anything if they find info in bounties among their teams
Browns draft wish list: RG3, LaMichael James, Devier Posey, Bruce Irvin
FA Wish List: Mike Tolbert, Pierre Garcon, Mario Manningham, Demetrius Bell
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would Washington and Buffalo get fines or anything if they find info in bounties among their teams
That would depend on if the league could prove those teams knew about it. Sure they probably did, but proof is needed in order to fine them. If said proof was there then they should face similar, possibly less, of a fine monetarily, without the surrendering of picks (unless they lie and get caught lying). New Orleans lied about it and got caught that's why, imo, they should get a harsher penalty of lost picks as well.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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I think that Williams will be suspended, but probably not for a whole year. I could see him suspended for 6 games. That plus a large fine would be a pretty stiff penalty.
I would bet that the Saints lose their 2nd this year, 1st next year, plus a 1st or 2nd in 2014. I think that the league is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks, because of the fact that a coach (or group of coaches) was involved.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I've got no problem with a bounty system that pays for things like touchdowns, fieldgoals 40+ yards, sacks, picks, blocked punts or kicks, you know, as a kind of acknowledgment for exceptional plays in front of the rest of your peers. In college these guys receive some type of stickers as acknowledgment, so a few bucks and a couple of pats onto the back aren't too much to ask.
Paying to take out another player (except Favre, I'd have had a breakdown if I had to go through another offseason of him crying over whether he wanted to play or retire 24/7 on every major sports channel) is just discusting and any team found running a program aimed at deliberately ending careers and causing injuries should be banned from the playoffs 5 years and lose the rights to their first and second round picks for 2 seasons, then their first Rounders 2 additional seasons. Coaches caught should have a 1 year suspension first offense then lifetime ban on the second offense. Players that repeatedly spear or go helmet to helmet should also receive lifetime bans.
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I've got no problem with a bounty system that pays for things like touchdowns, fieldgoals 40+ yards, sacks, picks, blocked punts or kicks, you know, as a kind of acknowledgment for exceptional plays in front of the rest of your peers.
As you just described it, wouldn't any money offered for those things be considered incentive pay,,,, not a bounty?
Aren't those things part of the general job description,, and aren't they paid handsomely for doing thier jobs?
Personally, I think incentives in contracts (most sacks, yards rushed, TD's caught etc etc) are enough.. But that's just me I guess.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I think that Williams will be suspended, but probably not for a whole year. I could see him suspended for 6 games. That plus a large fine would be a pretty stiff penalty.
I would bet that the Saints lose their 2nd this year, 1st next year, plus a 1st or 2nd in 2014. I think that the league is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks, because of the fact that a coach (or group of coaches) was involved.
When you take the fact that first he lied to the NFL about it for New Orleans, then when he did come clean and apologize, he failed to come clean about Washington and Buffalo, I think the NFL is going to make an example out of him. He'll be gone at least a year, if not lifetime.
#GMSTRONG
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I would be stunned if he got as much as a one year suspension. No way does he get a lifetime ban. There is a guy who did federal prison time who is paying in the league today ....... in fact, there are 2 of them ...... so I doubt that they would penalize this guy worse than those 2 guys.
He'll get a strong suspension, which 6 games would be ..... a loss of pay ..... and a stiff fine.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yeah but you think we should trade away 5 1st's and Joe Thomas for Griffin! 
#GMSTRONG
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Yeah but you think we should trade away 5 1st's and Joe Thomas for Griffin!
And Jim Brown.
Plus I've been convinced to throw in Brian Sipe as well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm down with Jim Brown but we're going to have to discuss Sipe, that's practically sacrilege.
#GMSTRONG
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Well, it was either Sipe or else Otto Graham and a 1960's lineman to be named later.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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jc..
It's kind of sad that coaches have to resort to paying players a bounty to get them to play to their max ability or give 100%, but in this case, it looks like some coaches may have done just that.
Do I believe it is a huge deal...NO.
Football is a tough sport played by tough people and if a player goes all out, isn't that what everyone wants?
From the time a player steps on a practice field for the first time, they are taught to give 100%. If someone gets hurt as a result of an opposing player giving 100%, so be it...that is how football is supposed to be played...injuries are part of the game.
Myself, I want to see players give 100% on every play.
While it may be wrong for coaches to pay players to give their best effort, I do not want to see football lose the aggressive nature that made the sport what it is today...America's game.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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No one was paying anyone extra to "Give 100%"
They were paying them to try to INJURE PEOPLE...
TAKE THEM OUT OF THE GAME.
There is a HUGE difference...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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No one was paying anyone extra to "Give 100%"
They were paying them to try to INJURE PEOPLE...
TAKE THEM OUT OF THE GAME.
There is a HUGE difference...
osu...that is your interpretation...but tell how you can tell the difference between a player who might be self motivated to give 100% and it results in the opponent being injured ...vs a player who might have been motivated by a bounty?
From the time we strap a helmet on, we are taught to play football in the most aggressive way we are capable of...tackle the hardest, pancake a block, etc.
If in the course of playing the game the way a player has been taught to play the game, an opposing player is hurt...so be it...like it or not, injuries are part of the game.
Anyone believing a player can determine when he will or when he can hurt an opponent...that is bologna. The goal is to get players to give their best effort.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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No one was paying anyone extra to "Give 100%"
They were paying them to try to INJURE PEOPLE...
TAKE THEM OUT OF THE GAME.
There is a HUGE difference...
osu...that is your interpretation...but tell how you can tell the difference between a player who might be self motivated to give 100% and it results in the opponent being injured ...vs a player who might have been motivated by a bounty?
From the time we strap a helmet on, we are taught to play football in the most aggressive way we are capable of...tackle the hardest, pancake a block, etc.
If in the course of playing the game the way a player has been taught to play the game, an opposing player is hurt...so be it...like it or not, injuries are part of the game.
Anyone believing a player can determine when he will or when he can hurt an opponent...that is bologna. The goal is to get players to give their best effort.
Mac...You are wrong. You dont think a LB can decide to hit a knee rather than a waist?
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I think James Harrison works on the bounty system, problem is he's too stupid to realize if he's paying the bounty, then he's not profitting when he's collecting it as well. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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No one was paying anyone extra to "Give 100%"
They were paying them to try to INJURE PEOPLE...
TAKE THEM OUT OF THE GAME.
There is a HUGE difference...
osu...that is your interpretation...but tell how you can tell the difference between a player who might be self motivated to give 100% and it results in the opponent being injured ...vs a player who might have been motivated by a bounty?
From the time we strap a helmet on, we are taught to play football in the most aggressive way we are capable of...tackle the hardest, pancake a block, etc.
If in the course of playing the game the way a player has been taught to play the game, an opposing player is hurt...so be it...like it or not, injuries are part of the game.
Anyone believing a player can determine when he will or when he can hurt an opponent...that is bologna. The goal is to get players to give their best effort.
Mac...You are wrong. You dont think a LB can decide to hit a knee rather than a waist?
Arps...no, you are wrong.
A player cannot tell you which play he going to take a player out on...they can claim to, but I'm telling you, they don't have that ability...UNLESS, they resort to illegal hits, such as waiting until a play is over to cheap shot a player in the knee.
But, in the course of a specific play, a DB or a LB can't say he was going to take a RB out on that play...unless he planned to take an illegal shot at a player.
I have not seen anything indicating the Bounties were for illegal hits. Face it, a player is going to get flagged for an illegal hit which ends up hurting his own team.
How many times have we seen a player injured in a game and the tackler flagged for an illegal hit? Illegal hits are officiated by NFL referees and the league office looks at every game for aggressive illegal play, therefore the NFL has control over the illegal hits portion of the game.
My feeling on the entire Bounty issue...a coach or player should not need "a bounty" to give their best effort. But obviously, it looked like this littºe "psychological exercise" of offering bounties, worked for Greg Williams or he would not have continued to use this method of motivation.
If it can be proven that Williams gave bounties for illegal hits, to take a player out, he is in some deep dodo.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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So if you are running at a QB you say you dont have the control weather or not to hit them low and try to hurt them?
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mac I really don't think you and those you are arguing with are that far apart.. the gray area is if they could collect the money by making the hit illegal or even legal but going after a knee or the head as opposed to the midsection.
You want to have a motivation fund for hardest hit or best defensive play of the game.. I don't think anybody would mind.. the moment you make INJURY the objective, then you change the game to something which incentivizes illegal or borderline illegal hits.. and that's wrong.
yebat' Putin
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It's kind of sad that coaches have to resort to paying players a bounty to get them to play to their max ability or give 100%
You've got it 100% wrong.
The concept you're describing happens every day in every business. It's called SALES.
Quotas. Bonuses. Incentives. People have base salaries, but are motivated to give max ability or give 100%.
Hell, NFL players have had incentives in their contracts for decades. I guess it's sad that NFL teams have to put these incentives into the contracts to get players to give 100%. 
These bounties aren't designed to get max performance, but rather to cross the line and INJURE players.
You've got the fundamentals mixed-up. Quote:
I have not seen anything indicating the Bounties were for illegal hits.
Don't worry. I'm sure the NFL has a copy of that 15,000 page document in the mail and on it's way to your house.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I think that's pretty much everyones interpretition of what the Saints were doing.
I don't care how you cut it,, if your team is putting a bounty on other teams players, it's flat out unsportsman like and should be punished.. End of story.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Here's to hoping the Bills, Redskins, and Saints all get docked either a 2012 2nd-round draft pick or a 2013 1st-round draft pick. That would pretty much guarantee RGIII's availability at 4. 
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Here's to hoping the Bills, Redskins, and Saints all get docked either a 2012 2nd-round draft pick or a 2013 1st-round draft pick. That would pretty much guarantee RGIII's availability at 4.
At which point we trade down with one of them and laugh all the way to the bank 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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At which point we grab our franchise QB and are set for the next 12-15 years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So, if we had done that two years ago, would the Rams still be drafting ahead of us?
Or would they be better off if they had made the trade down?
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At which point we grab our franchise QB and are set for the next 12-15 years.
Heck yeah! If we can trade down and then grab our franchise QB for the next 12-15 years, I am soooooo all over that!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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The concept you're describing happens every day in every business. It's called SALES.
toad...you missed the point by that much...as in not even close.
The players are already paid contracts to play the game and some of those contracts do have incentives.
What is going on here is an exercise in mental manipulation in an attempt to get the players to do what they should be doing regardless..putting out on every play...giving 100% at all times.
Like I said, obviously this psychological game worked for Williams as his players were able to turn it up a notch. I guess some coaches will do anything to try get their players to do what they should be doing anyhow.
What I find "sad" is the fact some players need more incentive to give 100%.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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So, if we had done that two years ago, would the Rams still be drafting ahead of us?
Or would they be better off if they had made the trade down?
Dunno. "Ifs" are always hard to figure out.
I have to think that Bradford would have done better on a team with Thomas and Mack (and Steinbach last year) on the OL. I think that our OL, overall, is far superior to theirs. As far as the WRs ..... they had guys signed off the "retired or never played/suck list", so who knows?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So are you saying that you need to build a supporting cast for The Guy first, so as not to get him killed, and also to set him up for success?
Mediocre as Colt's stats are, Bradford's are worse. I would rather have Haden, Ward, Sheard, Little, and Taylor than Bradford. It's all a crapshoot, but I'd rather have as many rolls of the dice as I can get.
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So, if we had done that two years ago, would the Rams still be drafting ahead of us?
Or would they be better off if they had made the trade down?
Dunno. "Ifs" are always hard to figure out.
I have to think that Bradford would have done better on a team with Thomas and Mack (and Steinbach last year) on the OL. I think that our OL, overall, is far superior to theirs. As far as the WRs ..... they had guys signed off the "retired or never played/suck list", so who knows?
So, that means that even the almighty Bradford couldn't make our receivers better 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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toad...you missed the point by that much...as in not even close.
....
What I find "sad" is the fact some players need more incentive to give 100%.
No mac, it is you who continues to miss the point.. this isn't about playing all out or going 100% on every play... that doesn't win you the pot as I understand it... you only win the pot if you INJURE somebody... and rewarding a player for injuring another player goes against everything that is decent about sports, even if the sport is a "business"...
and NRTU but the only way this equates to a commission sales job is if you are encouraging your sales staff to lie and cheat and unjustly disparage a competitors product in order to sell your own...
yebat' Putin
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I am saying that no QB will be successful with absolute junk all around him. Look at the Rams this year .... they lost their top 3 WR, both starting Tackles, and a bunch of guys on defense to injury. (Plus 3 QBs) When a team that lacks talent overall, like the Rams, is down to starting their 4th and 5th string WRs, and their backup LT and RT, then bad things can happen ........ and bad things did happen. I was never a huge Bradford fan, but I figured that if Holmgren liked him, then maybe there was something there that I didn't see. I wasn't a big fan of his, and can't recall any play made by him in college that made me go "Holy Stoinkies!" However, everyone seemed to think that he had it all, the ideal size, arm, head for the game, and so on, made him a sure fire "best bet". I remember Trent Dilfer saying some negative stuff about him .... but IIRC, he liked Claussen out of all of the QBs .... so that shows what he knew. I hated Claussen as a QB, and wanted no part of him at all. Anyway, we'll see how the Browns feel about all of this as free agency and the draft progress.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
No one was paying anyone extra to "Give 100%"
They were paying them to try to INJURE PEOPLE...
TAKE THEM OUT OF THE GAME.
There is a HUGE difference...
+1
Mike Golic was making the argument that the hits would be just as hard even if there wasn't a payout. And that may be true, but the context of the hits PLUS the bounty money removes the innocence, especially if someone is injured.
If this were to come out in the 80's, there would be a few fines and nothing else. However, in today's safety conscious NFL....heads are going to roll.
And really, I'm not surprised if this happened on every team for every season of the NFL's existance. But with the safety-first mentality of the NFL right now, you can't be doing this.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
I am saying that no QB will be successful with absolute junk all around him.
Look at the Rams this year .... they lost their top 3 WR, both starting Tackles, and a bunch of guys on defense to injury. (Plus 3 QBs) When a team that lacks talent overall, like the Rams, is down to starting their 4th and 5th string WRs, and their backup LT and RT, then bad things can happen ........ and bad things did happen.
I was never a huge Bradford fan, but I figured that if Holmgren liked him, then maybe there was something there that I didn't see.
I wasn't a big fan of his, and can't recall any play made by him in college that made me go "Holy Stoinkies!" However, everyone seemed to think that he had it all, the ideal size, arm, head for the game, and so on, made him a sure fire "best bet".
I remember Trent Dilfer saying some negative stuff about him .... but IIRC, he liked Claussen out of all of the QBs .... so that shows what he knew. I hated Claussen as a QB, and wanted no part of him at all.
Anyway, we'll see how the Browns feel about all of this as free agency and the draft progress.
How about that Saint's bounty hunting story huh? Pretty interesting stuff right there... 
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,418
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,418 |
Well .... I usually answer questions put directly to me. "Just when I thought I was out ..... they pull me back in again" 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
I think I'm going to start calling you ABCDAWGFAN, because clearly you'll discuss "anything but colt."
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