DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Saints' Defense had "Bounty Fund"...

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What is going on here is an exercise in mental manipulation in an attempt to get the players to do what they should be doing regardless..putting out on every play...giving 100% at all times.

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I'm not going to call you wrong because, as DC has already said, you and those who have argued with you are not that far apart.

But I will say this about the motivation: players should not need any motivation to give 100%. In that I agree wholeheartedly with you. It should be their own personal goal from the get-go.

Some players may lose sight of that personal goal at times for various reasons like problems at home or with family or something else that distracts them on the job. But they will respond to motivation that pumps them up emotionally to give 100%. Sort of get them back on track.

A player giving 100% is at the core trying to be the best football player he can be. To play his position and assignment exactly as he is coached and required to do, to make quality, form perfect tackles. He will be determined to use his speed to get him to the ball carrier or his learned moves to get to the quarterback in order to cause a hurried throw, a QB hit or to create a sack. There is so much more to giving 100% as well.

But when a player is motivated, by money or any other means, to injure an opposing player then that is playing the game with a goal that should not be a goal. Yes, hit him hard, send that message, tackle for a loss, sack a QB, tackle a receiver all in the name of making a good play, those are football goals.

But once the goal becomes to injure a player then the game is changed for the worse. No player should be induced, coerced or otherwise guided toward injury as a goal.

It then changes from playing a good, clean, fair, 100% effort into a 100% effort to injure the other player and that is dead wrong!

Because you are a good guy I think you've confused the difference between a player being offered $100 to make an interception and one being offered $100 to cause an ACL injury to an opposing player. In each instance the motivation and goal is very, very different.

NFL Discloses Findings of Investigation Into Violations of "Bounty Rule"


4:35 PM CST

Official NFL Release

A lengthy investigation by the NFL's security department has disclosed that between 22 and 27 defensive players on the New Orleans Saints, as well as at least one assistant coach, maintained a "bounty" program funded primarily by players in violation of NFL rules during the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons, the NFL announced today.



The league's investigation determined that this improper "Pay for Performance" program included "bounty" payments to players for inflicting injuries on opposing players that would result in them being removed from a game.

The findings - corroborated by multiple independent sources - have been presented to Commissioner Roger Goodell, who will determine the appropriate discipline for the violation.

"The payments here are particularly troubling because they involved not just payments for ‘performance,' but also for injuring opposing players," Commissioner Goodell said. "The bounty rule promotes two key elements of NFL football: player safety and competitive integrity.

"It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated. We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety and we are not going to relent. We have more work to do and we will do it."

The players regularly contributed cash into a pool and received improper cash payments of two kinds from the pool based on their play in the previous week's game. Payments were made for plays such as interceptions and fumble recoveries, but the program also included "bounty" payments for "cart-offs" (meaning that the opposing player was carried off the field) and "knockouts" (meaning that the opposing player was not able to return to the game).

The investigation showed that the total amount of funds in the pool may have reached $50,000 or more at its height during the 2009 playoffs. The program paid players $1,500 for a "knockout" and $1,000 for a "cart-off" with payouts doubling or tripling during the playoffs.

The investigation included the review of approximately 18,000 documents totaling more than 50,000 pages, interviews of a wide range of individuals and the use of outside forensic experts to verify the authenticity of key documents.

The NFL has a longstanding rule prohibiting "Non-Contract Bonuses." Non-contract bonuses violate both the NFL Constitution and By-Laws and the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Clubs are advised every year of this rule in a memo from the commissioner. Citing Sections 9.1(C)(8), and 9.3(F) and (G) of the Constitution and By-Laws, the memo for the 2011 season stated:

"No bonus or award may directly or indirectly be offered, promised, announced, or paid to a player for his or his team's performance against a particular team or opposing player or a particular group thereof. No bonuses or awards may be offered or paid for on field misconduct (for example, personal fouls to or injuries inflicted on opposing players)."

"Our investigation began in early 2010 when allegations were first made that Saints players had targeted opposing players, including Kurt Warner of the Cardinals and Brett Favre of the Vikings," Commissioner Goodell said. "Our security department interviewed numerous players and other individuals. At the time, those interviewed denied that any such program existed and the player that made the allegation retracted his earlier assertions. As a result, the allegations could not be proven. We recently received significant and credible new information and the investigation was re-opened during the latter part of the 2011 season."

The additional investigation established the following facts:

1. During the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons, the players and other participants involved used their own money to fund a "Pay for Performance" program. Players earned cash awards for plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries. They also earned "bounty" payments for "cart-offs" and "knockouts." All such payments violate league rules for non-contract bonuses.

2. Players were willing and enthusiastic participants in the program, contributing regularly and at times pledging large amounts. Between 22 and 27 defensive players contributed funds to the pool over the course of three NFL seasons. In some cases, the amounts pledged were both significant and directed against a specific opposing player.

3. The bounty program was administered by defensive coordinator Gregg Williams with the knowledge of other defensive coaches. Funds were contributed on occasion by Williams.

4. Saints owner Tom Benson gave immediate and full cooperation to the investigators. The evidence conclusively established that Mr. Benson was not aware of the bounty program. When informed earlier this year of the new information, Mr. Benson advised league staff that he had directed his general manager, Mickey Loomis, to ensure that any bounty program be discontinued immediately. The evidence showed that Mr. Loomis did not carry out Mr. Benson's directions. Similarly, when the initial allegations were discussed with Mr. Loomis in 2010, he denied any knowledge of a bounty program and pledged that he would ensure that no such program was in place. There is no evidence that Mr. Loomis took any effective action to stop these practices.

5. Although head coach Sean Payton was not a direct participant in the funding or administration of the program, he was aware of the allegations, did not make any detailed inquiry or otherwise seek to learn the facts, and failed to stop the bounty program. He never instructed his assistant coaches or players that a bounty program was improper and could not continue.

6. There is no question that a bounty program violates long-standing league rules. Payments of this type - even for legitimate plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries - are forbidden because they are inconsistent with the Collective Bargaining Agreement and well-accepted rules relating to NFL player contracts.

Commissioner Goodell has advised the Saints that he will hold further proceedings to determine the discipline to be assessed against individuals and the club. This will include conferring with the NFL Players Association and individual player leaders regarding appropriate discipline and remedial steps.

The discipline could include fines and suspensions and, in light of the competitive nature of the violation, forfeiture of draft choices. Any discipline may be appealed as provided for in the Constitution and By-Laws and Collective Bargaining Agreement. Any appeal would be heard and decided by the commissioner.

Commissioner Goodell also advised the Saints that he is retaining jurisdiction and reserving his authority to impose further discipline if additional information comes to his attention.

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jc...

It is hard to say just what this "secret investigation" is going to lead to, but what if a player gets a lawyer and fights the punishment?

I know the article above says all appeals will be handled by Goodell, but that comment alone is troubling.

There could be many legal questions that come up as a result of the NFL's investigation. The NFL claims they have 50,000 pages of evidence...how did the NFL get that evidence?
...what sources and methods did the NFL use to acquire the information?

...how will the NFL prove a players intent?

...a lot of questions might result and the NFL's authority might be challenged if players decide to lawyer up.

Not sure what the penalty to the saints is going to be (maybe $500k, 1st round pick in 2013?) -- It really depends what they think ownership etc. knew - and it sounds like the owner may have at least told coaches to put a stop to it.

But here's my upset bet for the punishment -- Williams will get a lifetime ban (or something approaching it, say 5+ years, possibly with penalties for anybody that rehires him).

My reasoning:

1.) This goes against everything the league wants to stand for -- especially in the concussions era.

2.) Williams is a small fish - he's not Bill Belichick. This is more like Sal Alosi, who never reentered the league after a single incident that wasn't nearly as bad (or premeditated).

3.) Goodell has a lot of power now with the new CBA, and a long extension for his personal contract - he has no reason to spare the whip.

4.) The easiest way for the league to clear itself of blame is to call this the actions of a rogue coach -- and ignore the fact that this probably goes on everywhere.

I think there will be fewer (if any) suspensions for players, the league will view it as systemic - and fine all the players responsible. No use taking on the union again, or upsetting fans by decimating a team for next year -- or hurting teams who had nothing to do with the incident.

Also, Goodell has gone after players like James Harrison very hard for their unsafe hits. If he takes it "easy" on these coaches and players, he loses credibility.

I do believe that several teams will be losing draft picks over this. It is similar to the "lack of institutional control" label used to identify all kinds of stuff that gets ignored in college sports.

I would guess that the Head Coaches knew about this to some degree, or at least kinda turned a blind eye to it.

I don't see how the NFL could penalize the Saints and not apply similar penalties to the other teams he worked for, and had a similar system in place with.

There is an article on CBS Sports where the writer seems to think that this could bring criminal charges as well. I don't know if it will go that far. However, if it does, I wonder if Favre, Warner, and other victims of his bounty will be able to sue him personally, and the teams as well? There could be really far reaching implications.

I don't think it goes that far-- the other thing the league needs is to get this over with quickly - it's not good for anybody if it continues to stay in the news.

edit: Criminal Charges, of course, are not up to the league.. but usually cops let sports enforce these things, they could charge the people involved in every on court fight, but they never do.

That may be true, but I think that the reason that they may be coming down hard on the Saints and not on the other teams (Washington & Buffalo) is because the Saints were told that it wouldn't be acceptable behavior and that the team told the NFL that it had been addressed when it actually had not been addressed at all.

That's why I think they'll get the hammer brought down on them. That's not to say that the other teams won't be hit with the aftermath, but I'm sure that the Saints will be made the example and if what has been suggested (that they turned a blind eye after being warned by the NFL) had actually happened, it'll be warranted.

Fine with me. Take away the saints 1 next year (since they don't have one this year) and take the bills and skins 2nd this year

What I think is fair:

Saints Org:
1.5 Million Dollar Fine
Loss of 3nd round pick this year
Loss of 1st round pick next

Greg Williams:
1 year Ban

Sean Payton & Micky Loomis:
8 games

Players:
4 Games staggered so Saints whole defense is not out at once.

For anyone that that thinks Goodell will go light on this.. think again and edge away from NOLA as fast as you can. Goodell is gonna stand on Mount Olympus and hurl thunderbolts at these guys. It won't be pretty at all.

Goodell has based the early part of his Commisionership on cleaning up the game. He has been focusing on clean play, fair play and penalizing anything that tarnishes the "shield"

Hizzoner da Commish cannot be happy right now. Especially with the "Prime time draft" right around the corner.

Suspensions will happen. In fact, I won't be surprised if Williams gets a 5 year ban.

Before I go to bed tonight I'm praying to the Good Lord Above that the squealers get caught up in this and they get some tough love from da Commish.

Yeah, the more I think about this, the more I think that teams are going to get hit HARD.

It would not surprise me if each team loses multiple draft picks, with at least 1 being a first in each team's case. I would not be surprised to see Williams suspended for 8 games.I suspect that teams will face multi million dollar fines.

I'm just glad that it wasn't us named in any of this. (knock on wood) I have a hard time imagining Romeo or Mangini allowing anything like that to happen under their watch. Mangini especially was so anti-penalty that it would stun me to the core if we have a system like that under his watch.

As far as I can tell, Jauron and Williams never worked together.

Man I am so happy that we never hired Williams. At one point I thought that he was a solid DC, and would not have minded seeing him in Cleveland at all.

For those hoping for a Redskin penalty ....... this may add to the chances .....

Washington Redskins: Gregg Williams offered cash-for-hits - NFL - SI.com
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/fo...?sct=nfl_t2_a12

WASHINGTON (AP) -- It seems the Washington Redskins have been doing more than just calling out formations between plays in recent seasons. They've also been setting the going rate for big hits.

"If the game was on the line and we had to kick off," said Steve Jackson, a Redskins assistant coach for eight years before he was dismissed in January, "there would be players that would come into the special teams huddle and say, `If you get a tackle inside the 20-yard line, hey, that's 500 bucks.' And they would do the same thing in practice and everything. It was just the culture. Players trying to get each other motivated."

Redskins players told similar stories Monday, even as the team's former defensive coordinator, Gregg Williams, met with NFL investigators looking into the big-money bounty program he ran while holding the same position with the New Orleans Saints. While they offered intriguing details of how money changed hands - in a way that happens to violate NFL rules - those who spoke to The Associated Press said there was no outright bounty system in place when Williams was with the team from 2004-07.

"I've never seen a player get any money for hurting anybody," said Kedric Golston, a defensive lineman for the Redskins since 2006. "Gregg did fine people, and he'd pay out. It would be if you got a sack or an interception, or you made a pivotal play. He did fine us, and he did give that money back for doing things `the right way' - as he liked to put it."

Linebacker Lorenzo Alexander said a player could get rewards for knocking a player out of a game, but only after the fact - not as part of a pre-meditated "bounty."

"If you have, like, a big hit, you could possibly get a kitty," Alexander said. "But not to say, `You have to knock this player out,' and knock him out of the game with an injury. So it wasn't a bounty-type thing."

The money didn't come from the official fines announced by the team or the league - those are deducted from paychecks and given to charity - but instead from in-house gaffes, such as being late for a meeting or dropping an interception. Much of it was player-run, or, as Golston put it: ""It was how we policed ourselves."

"Each (position) group had a little kitty," Alexander said. "If you do something stupid, you pay 20 bucks into it and then, from time to time, whoever's the veteran or whoever's the leader in that room would say, `Whoever gets an interception, you get an X amount of dollars from the kitty.' It was nothing malicious."

Alexander said the fines would sometimes get too big for cash, so the offender would write a check instead.

"You have some guys, like the top-echelon guys, that make a lot of good money," the player said, "they'll say, `OK, this week I got $1,000 for whoever gets a sack or whoever gets an interception to the house.' And they'll take that out of their own personal (stash) and give it to them."

Jackson compared such motivational ploys to the "hit stick" that the Redskins for years have given to the player who makes the biggest hit on special teams in a victory.

"We had hit sticks," Jackson said. "We had an `easy boy' recliner. You name it - every motivational bribe - but I don't remember any bounties."

But "bounties" is the exact word used by former Redskins safety Matt Bowen, who wrote on the topic on Friday in a column in the Chicago Tribune. Bowen wrote of prices that "were set on Saturday nights in the team hotel" when he played for the Redskins in the 2004-05 seasons.

"We targeted big names, our sights set on taking them out of the game," Bowen wrote.
Jackson said he doesn't recall anything of the sort, at least from Williams.

"I really don't remember him saying if you intentionally hurt somebody, you're going to get paid," Jackson said.

Jackson takes particular exception to the notion that a bounty system might have led to Peyton Manning's current injury problems. Speculation has it that the Indianapolis Colts quarterback first started having neck trouble when he was sacked by Phillip Daniels and Andre Carter in a game against the Redskins in 2006.

"Phillip Daniels is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Andre Carter, another one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet," Jackson said. "They're not necessarily the most violent guys. And to think that Gregg waved a dollar bill out there and all of a sudden they turned into killers? It wasn't Antonio Pierce and Sean Taylor. It was probably two of the nicest most poetry-reading guys on the team."

Neither Daniels nor Carter returned calls seeking comment Monday.

Those higher up in the Redskins chain also denied knowledge of a bounty system under Williams. Joe Gibbs, the head coach when Williams was the defensive coordinator, told The Washington Post he was "not aware of anything like this." Vinny Cerrato, who oversaw the front office during that period, said essentially the same.

"I had no idea that this was going on. I never attended a defensive meeting," Cerrato told the AP. "I think that there are certain things that have gone on for a long time, but not to the extent that people are talking about with trying to put players out. I think when you're trying to injure players, that's not within the rules."

The current Redskins organization, including owner Dan Snyder, has declined to comment.
Williams is facing potentially severe punishment after admitting he ran a bounty pool of up to $50,000 over the last three seasons that rewarded players for knocking targeted opponents out of games while he was with the Saints. The NFL is surely looking to see if he did the same with the Redskins and at his other stops around the league.

But, as it turns out, even those $500 payouts for tackles inside the 20 are against the rules. The NFL warns teams against such practices before each season.

To Jackson, however, that seems as innocuous as a certain gambling obsession that strikes Americans this time of year.

"I'll tell you this," Jackson said. "We also had an office bracket on the March Madness, too. And everybody in the whole building would put in on it."

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Linebacker Lorenzo Alexander said a player could get rewards for knocking a player out of a game, but only after the fact - not as part of a pre-meditated "bounty."

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Once a player gets a reward "after the fact", from then on it becomes a "pre-meditated bounty" automatically.

jc..

Report: Owner backs Saints coach, GM

March 6, 2012, 2:27 AM ET

NEW ORLEANS -- New Orleans Saints owner Tom Benson isn't backing off his support of his general manager and coach, even as his team is accused by the NFL of maintaining a bounty program to injure opponents.

While Benson cooperates with NFL officials in their investigation of the bounty program that spanned the last three seasons, he is standing behind general manager Mickey Loomis and head coach Sean Payton -- even though the league says they knew about the bounties.

"The bond between Sean and Mickey and Mr. Benson could not be stronger," a team official told The Associated Press on Monday on condition of anonymity because the investigation was still ongoing. "(Benson) is 110 percent behind his guys."

The NFL investigation found between 22 and 27 defensive players on the Saints, as well as former assistant coach Gregg Williams, maintained a bounty system for inflicting injuries on targeted players.

Former defensive coordinator Williams has admitted to running the pool, and the NFL's investigation concluded that Loomis and Payton did nothing to prevent it, even after Benson was alerted of the pool by the NFL last year and asked Loomis to put a stop to it.

"The team completely understands the ramifications, is taking the matter very seriously and has cooperated fully with the league," said the Saints official. "Mr. Benson is in constant contact with (commissioner) Roger Goodell and his office, yet he remains steadfast in his support of Mickey and Sean, and his focus is on the upcoming free agency, making the team better and hosting the Super Bowl. ... We have a lot of positive things on our plate that we have to get working on."

Williams met with NFL security officials Jeff Miller and Joe Hummel on Monday for another round of dialogue pertaining to the alleged bounty violations.

Goodell did not attend the meeting.

Williams now is defensive coordinator in St. Louis. He also held that position in Tennessee, Washington and Jacksonville. He was head coach of the Buffalo Bills from 2001 to 2003.

The NFL's report said the Saints maintained a bounty pool of up to $50,000 the last three seasons. Payoffs were made for inflicting game-ending injuries on targeted players, including quarterbacks Brett Favre and Kurt Warner. "Knockouts," in which a player was knocked out of the game, were worth $1,500 and "cart-offs," in which players had to be helped off the field, were worth $1,000. Payments doubled or tripled for the playoffs.

Williams called his role in the pool a "terrible mistake" when he issued a public apology late last week.

No punishments have been handed out, but they could include suspension, fines and loss of draft picks.

Next season's Super Bowl is scheduled for New Orleans, and the Saints hope to be a contender coming off a 13-win 2011 season that ended with a dramatic loss in the final seconds of a divisional-round playoff game at San Francisco. Yet, the Saints could potentially find themselves playing some games without several key returning defensive players such as linebacker Jonathan Vilma and strong safety Roman Harper -- if they are found to have participated in the pool.

In Week 14 against Tennessee last season, Harper made two hits that drew a total of $22,500 in fines.

Harper was fined $15,000 for roughing the passer on a helmet-to-helmet hit, and another $7,500 for unnecessary roughness when he pulled down receiver Damian Williams by his helmet after a long catch and run. The tackle likely stopped Williams from scoring, and Gregg Williams defended Harper's aggressiveness on that play after the game.

Harper has not responded to phone messages from The Associated Press, but former Saints defensive end Alex Brown and safety Darren Sharper defended their former defensive coordinator in separate radio interviews Monday.

Brown, in an interview with "The Waddle & Silvy Show" on ESPN 1000 in Chicago, said knocking players out of games doesn't mean illegal tactics were used.

"You can knock a guy out of the game and do it legally. Just because you knock a guy out of the game doesn't mean it's an illegal thing. Just because a guy gets hurt that doesn't mean it's illegal. It is football," Brown said.

Sharper, in an interview with 97.5 The Fanatic in Philadelphia, said characterizations "that we were trying to maim guys or try to cart a guy off is just totally ridiculous."

He also said Payton had no knowledge of the incentive program.

"I don't think Coach Payton had anything or didn't know anything about that. Coach Payton didn't have any idea what we were doing," Sharper said.

Loomis and Payton also have not commented on the probe.

Since the report was released on Friday, multiple media outlets have reported similar systems in Williams' past stops with the Redskins and Bills, with former defensive players confirming anonymous sourcing.

Redskins defensive lineman Kedric Golston became the latest player to confirm payments, but denied they were for malicious intent.

Golston told The Associated Press on Monday that Williams would reward players for a "sack or an interception" or "a pivotal play." But Golston also said: "I've never seen a player get any money for hurting anybody."

Williams was the Redskins' defensive coordinator from 2004 to '07.

Longtime Williams assistant Steve Jackson says he doesn't remember any bounties, either, but he said players would offer their own incentives for big plays -- such as $500 for a tackle inside the 20.

All payouts for specific performances in a game, including interceptions or causing fumbles, are against NFL rules. The NFL also warns teams against such practices before each season.

The NFL said its findings in its probe of the Saints were corroborated by multiple, independent sources, and the pool amounts peaked in 2009, the year the Saints won the Super Bowl.

Information from The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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I"m still having a hard time thinking how dumb the players were to contribute and participate in such a plan..

I mean,, If every team did it (and I suppose it's possible that they do) they are essentially talking about seriously injuring players (which they are)

I'd think that the players would be the first to say,, Hey,, wait a minute.. that's nuts....

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I'd think that the players would be the first to say,, Hey,, wait a minute.. that's nuts....

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Not to mention the fact that some of these guys would be changing teams and know about it when joining the new teams.

Not sure if this has been posted..

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Cleveland Browns LB Scott Fujita may be caught up in NFL's bounty probe
Published: Monday, March 05, 2012, 9:06 PM Updated: Monday, March 05, 2012, 9:13 PM
By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer


PD file photoWas Browns linebacker Scott Fujita in on the Saints' alleged bounty system?
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns linebacker Scott Fujita, who played in New Orleans from 2006-09, faces possible disciplinary action from the NFL in connection with the Saints' bounty probe, ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported Monday.

Fujita, a member of the NFL Players Association's Executive Committee, has been an outspoken advocate for players' health and safety, especially as it relates to concussions.

Fujita suffered a concussion in the Oakland game last season and sat out the following week. After quarterback Colt McCoy was sent back into the Steelers game with a concussion, Fujita called for independent neurologists to be on the sidelines of every NFL game.

In 2009, Fujita played under then-Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, who allegedly ran a bounty system from 2009-11 in which defensive players were rewarded for knocking opposing players out of the game, including Kurt Warner and Brett Favre. The NFL said Friday that 22 to 27 defensive players were involved in the scheme and that the bounty pool was worth up to $50,000. "Cart-offs" were worth $1,000 and "knockouts" $1,500. In the playoffs, payments doubled or tripled, and reached their peak in 2009, when the Saints won the Super Bowl.

Fujita, whose wife gave birth to their third daughter on Thursday, has not yet returned two emails or a call seeking comment. Browns safety Usama Young, who played for the Saints from 2007-10, also declined to comment through his agent Andy Simms.

Williams, now the defensive coordinator of the Rams, met with NFL security officials in New York on Monday to answer questions about the alleged violations, according to various reports. Sanctions could come down within the next few weeks. But the NFL might just be scratching the surface.

Related stories
•NFL under pressure to react strongly: Manoloff (SBTV)
•NFL reveals its underlying moral crisis (ESPN)
The Washington Post reported that Williams ran a similar bounty system when he was defensive coordinator of the Redskins, according to five former players and a coach. Former Bills safety Coy Wire told The Buffalo News that Williams paid players for injuring opponents when he was head coach of the Bills.

"It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it," Williams said. "Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry."

Fujita and Young aren't the only two in the Browns' family with a link to the scandal. New offensive coordinator Brad Childress was head coach of the Vikings in 2009 when the Saints apparently targeted Favre. Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma reportedly offered $10,000 to anyone who knocked Favre out of the game.

They almost did just that. Favre suffered a serious ankle injury that night and was too hobbled to pull out the game in the end, throwing an interception instead. Saints defensive end Bobby McCray was fined $20,000 after two improper hits on Favre in that game, and Favre told Sports Illustrated's Peter King that he thought others should have been fined, too.

The following September, before a rematch between the teams, Childress told Saints reporters on conference call: "What I hate to see are late hits or attempts to hurt anybody. I don't think there's a place for that in the game."

Asked if he felt the Saints tried to hurt Favre that game, Childress said, "Yes, I would have to say that, yes."

Childress could not be reached through a Browns spokesman Monday.

Fujita told Yahoo.com a day after that game: "No doubt about it -- we came out really kind of hoping to knock the [expletive] out of Brett, and I felt we did that. But that [expletive] is tough. He kept coming back at us. He's incredible."

Favre told SI's King over the weekend, "I'm not going to make a big deal about it. In all honesty, there's a bounty of some kind on you on every play. Now, in that game there were some plays that, I don't want to say were odd, but I'd throw the ball and whack, on every play. Hand it off, whack. Over and over. Some were so blatant. I hand the ball to Percy Harvin early and got drilled right in the chin. They flagged that one at least.

"I've always been friends with Darren Sharper, and he came in a couple times and popped me hard. I remember saying, 'What the hell you doing, Sharp?' I felt there should have been more calls against the Saints. I thought some of their guys should have been fined more."

Perhaps now, some of them will be.

On Twitter: @marykaycabot

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I mean,, If every team did it (and I suppose it's possible that they do) they are essentially talking about seriously injuring players (which they are)

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daman...like most schemes that come undone, the players or coaches were likely not very discrete about who knew about the bounty program.

It will be interesting to see who this tracks back to, who gave up the info..an ex-saints player or coach?...an ex-bills, redskins, titans, jags or rams player or coach?

Looking at potentially how long Williams may have used his bounty system and the many teams he coached on, it might not have been that difficult to find someone willing to talk and give up information about bounty-gate.

I will say this, it is going to be difficult to prove that a player was trying to hurt another player?

Even if a player says he is going to take someone out...that is locker room talk. Defensive players say stuff like I'm going to take his head off...or I'm going to break his leg...that stuff gets said all the time among players.

Just because someone says they want to hurt another player, doesn't mean they did hurt another player or even attempted to.

People need to understand, as a player, you are taught to hit as hard as you can..to play the game to the max. and injuries are going to happen as a result...that is just part of the game. Proving a player intended to hurt another player is going to be nearly impossible to prove, imo.

As far as Coach Williams is concerned...it looks as if he left a trail, leading right back to himself. Reports say the Saints were warned to end the bounty program, 2 yrs ago...and they didn't...that was flat out dumb of Williams.

Also someone should break William's legs.

$10,000 to the man who does it

I'm all for looking into safer helmets to prevent brain damage... but guys literally trying to injure people? Ban them from the league. I certainly hope there will at least be some fines and suspensions.

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I strip them of the SUPER BOWL TITLE-without the cheap shots, i don't think they would have been in the game.

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big...that's crazy.

You do realize, this is tackle football and not flag football?

What are the Colts gonna do, claim the Saints hit them too hard?

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Just because someone says they want to hurt another player, doesn't mean they did hurt another player or even attempted to.

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Still trying to make the case that this bounty program is clean, eh?

BS.

It's dirty and it stinks and you're missing what this caused.

arp...everyone is doing a lot of talking...what evidence do folks have that the bounty system resulted in injuries?

Just what are people claiming this horrible incentive caused?...and what evidence do folks have to back up their claims?

Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with players or coaches putting money on the table as an incentive to hurt players..that is wrong and likely against the NFL/Union agreement and it should be punished if it can be proven that a player tried to hurt another player to collect the bounty.

It will be interesting to see how many times Williams bounty system worked..how many players were injured and carted off the field.

It doesnt really matter. Its against the rules and they are going to get punished.

Does driving 55 instead of 65 make the highway safer? Doesnt matter if I get caught.

There is also a huge ethical issue, but I wont go there.

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It will be interesting to see how many times Williams bounty system worked..how many players were injured and carted off the field.

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Attempted robbery or attempted murder carries a pretty heafty punishment even though neither of them got carried out to the fullest.

If I intend to steal the gas out of your car but don't do it because a neighbor woke up and turned a light on causing me to run away that doesn't make me a pretty good guy just because I wasn't able to carry out my intention.

For the life of me I don't see why you latched onto this and created a platform to argue in favor of this sort of thing. If it's only in a clutching at straws to prove yourself right from your first comments then let it go.

The deeper and more specifically you defend this the wronger you get.

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Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with players or coaches putting money on the table as an incentive to hurt players..that is wrong and likely against the NFL/Union agreement and it should be punished if it can be proven that a player tried to hurt another player to collect the bounty.

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LIKELY?!

Wow.

As to the rest, they don't have to prove players were hurt by a bounty. They just have to prove the bounty was in place.

I don't have to rob a bank to go to jail. They just have to prove I planned to rob a bank...

j/c

On Saturday nights during the 2009 NFL season, Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, the lightning-rod leader of a feisty unit, would stand in front of his men holding white envelopes filled with cash—bonuses for their performances the previous week. As Williams called up player after player, handing them envelopes with amounts ranging from $100 for a special teams tackle inside the opponents' 20-yard line to $1,500 for knocking a foe out of the game, a chant would rise up from the fired-up defenders:

"Give it back! Give it back! Give it back!"

Many players would do just that, to beef up the pot and make the stakes bigger as the season went on. The NFL alleges that by the time New Orleans reached the NFC Championship Game against the Vikings on Jan. 24, 2010, the stakes had risen to the point that middle linebacker and defensive captain Jonathan Vilma personally offered a $10,000 bounty to any player who knocked Minnesota quarterback Brett Favre out of the game. (SI's attempts to reach Vilma were unsuccessful.)

Over four quarters that Sunday at the Superdome, Favre was hit repeatedly and hard. The league later fined Saints defensive linemen Bobby McCray and Anthony Hargrove a total of $25,000 for three separate improper hits, and NFL vice president of officiating Mike Pereira said the Saints should have been flagged for a brutal high-low mashing by McCray and defensive lineman Remi Ayodele in the third quarter. Favre suffered a badly sprained left ankle on that play and had to be helped off the field. On the New Orleans sideline, Hargrove excitedly slapped hands with teammates, saying, "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!"

An on-field microphone directed toward the sideline caught an unidentified defender saying, "Pay me my money!"

Favre returned to the game but was hobbled. The Saints won 31--28 in overtime, and two weeks later they defeated the Colts 31--17 in Super Bowl XLIV, a victory for an embattled city that was one of the most uplifting moments in recent NFL history. But the excessive hits on Favre in the title game, and on Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner a week earlier in New Orleans's 45--14 divisional playoff victory, prompted an off-and-on two-year league investigation that culminated last Friday in a caustic and blistering report implicating Williams and Saints players in a pay-for-performance program that operated far outside the bounds of league rules. The report also said that general manager Mickey Loomis was made aware of the allegations about the program in early 2010, denied knowledge of it and said he would ensure that no such program was in place, and that coach Sean Payton was also aware of the allegations but failed to look into them. (Loomis and Payton did not respond to repeated requests for comment over the weekend.) The discipline handed down to Williams, Payton, Loomis and several players will likely dwarf the Patriots' punishment in the infamous Spygate scandal in 2007. In that case the league fined the Patriots and coach Bill Belichick $750,000 and docked New England a first-round pick for illegally videotaping opposing sidelines. Judging by the outrage emanating from the NFL's New York City offices over the weekend, the Saints' sanctions could be closer to the yearlong suspensions given to stars Alex Karras and Paul Hornung in 1963 for gambling. Discipline is expected to be announced within the month.

For commissioner Roger Goodell, player safety has become a top priority, and nothing could undermine that more than cash incentives for players to injure their opponents. One source close to Goodell said the commissioner's reaction to the initial reports of the bounties in the 2009 playoffs was, "God forbid this is true. This will be earth-shattering."

In football circles, it is. The NFL charges that over the past three seasons, between 22 and 27 Saints participated in a bounty program administered by Williams and by leading players that paid defenders for specific achievements on the field, including injuring opponents. The program reportedly paid $1,500 for knocking a player out of a game and $1,000 for a "cart-off"—forcing a player to be helped off the field—as well as lesser rewards for individual plays. During the playoffs, the league said, the sums increased. Such bounties not only circumvent the NFL's salary cap, as extra off-the-books compensation, but also violate the NFL's constitution and by-laws and the collective bargaining agreement, all of which state, "No bonuses or awards may be offered or paid for on-field misconduct (for example, personal fouls to, or injuries inflicted on, opposing players)."

In a statement on Friday, Goodell said, "It is our responsibility to protect player safety and the integrity of our game, and this type of conduct will not be tolerated. We have made significant progress in changing the culture with respect to player safety, and we are not going to relent."

Culture change has been a mantra in the NFL since a brutal weekend of football in October 2010, during which Rutgers defensive tackle Eric LeGrand was paralyzed on a kickoff return, and a series of violent NFL collisions focused attention on concussive hits in the pro game. In addition, more than 50 former NFL players have filed lawsuits against the league, alleging that it didn't do enough to prevent concussions and head trauma during their playing days.


"This is a seminal moment in the culture change we have to make," said the source close to Goodell, who asked to not be identified because the investigation is ongoing. "This has to stop now. Every team needs to hear the message that we're in a different era now, where this appalling behavior is going to end."

Last Friday, Williams admitted culpability in the scheme and apologized for it. "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it," he said in a statement. "Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it." Saints owner Tom Benson said he had fully cooperated in the investigation and admitted that the league's findings "may be troubling." It appeared as of Monday that New Orleans was distancing itself from Williams, who in January left to become the Rams' defensive coordinator, and that if Saints staffers spoke out, it would be to paint Williams, who declined to speak to SI, as a rogue coach who didn't have the support of Payton or Loomis. But would the NFL believe that a micromanager such as Payton didn't know what was going on with one of his coordinators and half of his team on the nights before games? "Reminds me of the Nixon White House," said another league source involved in the investigation.

As with Watergate, this scandal almost died in the early stages for lack of proof. According to a confidential league memo sent to the 32 teams late on Friday, Vikings officials alleged to the league following that January 2010 NFC title game that the Saints had put a bounty on Favre. Minnesota officials also said they had information that New Orleans had a bounty on Warner a week earlier. The NFL memo said Williams, Hargrove and assistant head coach/linebackers Joe Vitt all denied that any such activity took place that postseason. The league said two NFL investigators told Loomis at the time to ensure there was no bounty program in place and that Loomis "pledged to take care of it."

The investigation was dry-docked at that point, but during the latter part of the 2011 season the league said it received "significant and credible new information" that the bounty program did exist in 2009 and continued through '11. Before the Saints' January 2012 playoff game against the Lions, the league informed Benson of the renewed investigation. At that point the owner allowed NFL officials and outside forensic experts to gather evidence, including copious club e-mails, related to the bounty program. Benson also told the league he would contact Loomis to make sure the program wasn't in place.

The NFL said it examined 18,000 documents totaling some 50,000 pages. One of those was an e-mail from a former team consultant, Mike Ornstein, to Payton, allegedly pledging $5,000 toward a bounty on an opposing quarterback. A source said Ornstein—at one time a close confidant of Payton's who in October 2010 would plead guilty to federal fraud and money-laundering charges in connection with the scalping of Super Bowl tickets and the sale of bogus game-worn NFL jerseys—claimed he was kidding about the pledge, but the league took it seriously.

When the investigation was complete in mid-February, Goodell summoned Williams to his office. Confronted with evidence that implicated him as the ringleader in the scandal, Williams at first denied any involvement but shortly thereafter met with Goodell and admitted his role.

The new investigation concluded that Loomis "took no effective action to ensure that these practices ceased" and that Payton knew about the bounty program, though he wasn't in the meetings where bounties were discussed. Last Thursday, Loomis and Payton flew to New York to meet individually with Joe Hummel, the NFL's director of investigations, and Jeff Miller, its lead security officer. Faced with the weight of evidence, one league source said, Loomis admitted he could have done more and that he "let Mr. Benson down."

According to the source, Payton refused to admit he knew much of what Williams was doing. Confronted with the e-mail from Ornstein, Payton expressed surprise and said he hadn't read the e-mail.

There is a win-at-all-costs side to Gregg Williams, a fiery 53-year-old who's fond of telling his troops, "Kill the head and the body will die." Since the NFL's announcement on Friday, allegations have surfaced of pay-for-performance programs at at least two of Williams's previous stops. Former Bills safety Coy Wire told The Buffalo News there was one in Buffalo, where Williams was the head coach from 2001 to '03. Ditto in Washington, where Williams served as defensive coordinator from 2004 to '07; there, former Redskins safety Matt Bowen said in a Chicago Tribune column, bounty prices were set on Saturday nights. "We targeted big names, our sights set on taking them out of the game," Bowen wrote.

Then there's the Williams who along with wife, Leigh Ann, stressed the value of education, insisting that their three children read 30 minutes each night before going to bed. Williams ran charity events in his hometown of Excelsior Springs, Mo., that benefited athletic and academic causes alike. He raised money to found an Excelsior High robotics team and to send the drama club to Scotland.


But Williams was most driven to coach football. He once worked under the attack-minded Buddy Ryan with the Oilers, and he preaches a similarly physical, punishing style predicated on blitzing and turnovers. To entice him to come to New Orleans in 2009 to improve a D that had ranked 23rd the previous year, Payton personally paid $250,000 of Williams's first-year salary—enough to ensure that the Saints beat out Green Bay for his services. And Williams's driven ways worked: While the defense's overall ranking didn't improve in '09, New Orleans went from tied for 20th in takeaways to second.

Along the way Williams inspired a loyalty among his players that recalled the Bears' devotion to Ryan in the '80s. And Payton was confident enough in him that he ceded control of the defense's preparations to Williams, instead spending his Saturday nights working on the offensive play script. It's wrong, though, to say that Williams ran the pay-for-performance system by himself. One player who was in those Saturday defensive meetings says the energy among the players sometimes built to such a height that he was surprised to hear the words that came out of his own mouth. Another source said that linebacker Scott Fujita and two other defensive leaders contributed between $2,000 and $10,000 to the performance and bounty pool. Williams preached intense team play, and the players relished their roles as funders and benefactors.

On Sunday, Fujita said, "Over the years I've paid out a lot of money for big plays like interceptions, sacks and special teams tackles inside the 20. But I've never made a payment for intentionally injuring another player." Fujita said he didn't think he ever put money into a collective pot; rather when a teammate made a play, Fujita handed him the money he'd promised.

Fujita's name in the investigation is noteworthy. After signing with the Browns as a free agent a month after the Super Bowl win, he accepted a nomination to the NFL Players Association's executive board. During the 2011 negotiations on the new 10-year collective bargaining agreement, he and former Cardinals and Steelers special teams star Sean Morey pushed hard for improvements in working conditions, including fewer full-contact practices during the season. It was Fujita's emphasis on health care for former players who have debilitating illnesses, such as close friend and former Saints safety Steve Gleason, who suffers from ALS, that helped persuade the two sides to include lifetime care for ex-players with that disease. It's hard to reconcile Fujita's being part of the problem in 2009 and part of the solution in 2011.

"You don't spend time with guys like Sean Morey and other former players, or have close friends whose health fails them, possibly because of this game, and not be affected by that," Fujita said. "I wanted to be part of the paradigm shift."

It is likely Goodell will come down hardest on Williams, Payton, Loomis and Vilma, in that order. Williams oversaw the program in New Orleans and may have run similar ones in previous coaching stops. He might have mitigated his punishment with his contrition, but he should expect a significant suspension, perhaps half a season or more.

Payton and Loomis may be equally at fault in the eyes of the league. The confidential memo to owners last week said that Payton "failed to stop the bounty program" by not exercising proper institutional control. The league had particularly harsh words for Loomis: "He failed to ensure that the club, and the coaching staff he supervised, conducted themselves in a way consistent with league rules, and further failed to carry out the express instructions of the club's owner." The Saints may have to do without Payton and Loomis for four games or more in 2012. As for the players, Vilma seems likely to get a multigame ban. Benson personally appears to be in the clear—"There is no evidence to suggest that Saints ownership had any knowledge of the bounty program," the league memo said—but the franchise will almost certainly face penalties including a heavy fine and loss of one or more draft choices. That would be problematic for the Saints, who traded their 2012 first-round pick last year to the Patriots and don't make a selection until No. 59. Goodell could take that pick, or wait until 2013 to dock New Orleans a first-rounder. Or he could do both.

Far away from the furor, the object of much of that January 2010 mayhem didn't seem particularly ruffled. Reached on his 465-acre ranch just west of Hattiesburg, Miss., on Friday, Favre told SI, "Since that game, I haven't gone a week without someone asking me whether I thought there was a bounty on me that day. Now it's come out to be true. But it's football. I'm not going to make a big deal of it." The commissioner will.

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so, you stomp your feet and make a huge deal out of the NFL not doing enough for player safety, particularly in regards to helmet research.

but, you do not think it is a big deal if the players and/or coaches have bounties going for games?

If this is true, I wonder if Fujita will still be punished for salary cap issues or if that's a team punishment.

Just clicking

It's against the rules.. simple as that..

on and off the field, when someone associated with an NFL team breaks the rules, they get punished...

These guys are absolutly no different.......

There is going to be an unholy wrathful crapstorm coming down from the Commish on this one, and teams and players alike will get hammered is my guess.

@79 - My guess is that anything coming down in regards to Fujita will be an individual punishment against him, not anything that would touch the Browns - unless he continued his practice since being here.

Oh, I agree 100% about Fujita. I was speaking more to if a salary cap punishment would be levied against him or against the Saints. I'd have to think it would be the Saints, but maybe also a fine for him.

Him being a leader on the D, I wonder if he did bring it here...

I think that if it was Fujita's funds and not supported by the club, it wouldn't be a CBA violation, right? Both the giver and receiver would be NFLPA.

In other words, I don't think a player can be punished for violating the salary cap.

It's an interesting loophole.

The salary cap only applies to the team's money and spending, not a player's.