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It does make me wonder what happened to the kid.
I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT
I'd tell you what happened but you would tell me I'm making excuses
However, one other thing that should be obvious is that the WRs were actually making plays. Gee ..... how can that be when they all suck?
Yeah,, amazing how much better they look when they catch the damn balls thrown to them  and accordingly, how much better McCoy looks when they catch the damn balls thrown to them
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/05/12 05:41 PM.
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That is true ..... but you can't run all of your pass plays off of play action.
I know that they ran a lot of roll outs with McCoy last year, as well as shotgun plays. We started doing that this year as the year went along as well, but it didn;t seem to have the same impact in taking care of what ailed McCoy.
Regardless, maybe it is partially that the Pats defense really sucks .....
Last year the Pats were 30th in total passing yards allowed. Using their totals for the year, and dividing them out by 16 weeks, their average passing game against was 24/38 for 259 yards, 7.1 yards/pass play, 1.56 TD passes per game, and 1.56 INT per game.
McCoy's day was 14/19 for 174 yards, 0 TD and 0 INT. His average per pass play was 9.2.
The Patriots were 8th in scoring defense.
I do think that a huge factor in that game was that the Browns were able to get in front and stay there. They never had to take any chances. The game was carefully managed. Hillis actually ran for more yards in that game (184) than McCoy threw for.
In our 2 biggest wins last year, (New Orleans and New England) McCoy threw a combined 23/35 for 248 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT.
In short, he was mainly a game manager. )although he did hit a couple of deep passes) The Mangini/Daboll offense must have given him things that he could do, and kept him to only those things. I do think that Shurmur's offense requires the player to adjust more than adjusting the offense to the player.
The more I think about it, those who want McCoy to get more of a shot should probably hope we draft RG3. The Browns will almost certainly do something at QB. If they go Flynn, or another free agent, they will probably be brought in with the idea that they start. If we draft RG3, Holmgren's past says that he will be allowed to sit for a while to learn the offense, and the winner of the McCoy/Wallace battle would start the year. McCoy should be able to beat out Wallace ... at least, I would expect that he can.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The Mangini/Daboll offense must have given him things that he could do, and kept him to only those things.
I think the fact that he was playing with a bunch of guys who were in their second full year in the system had to help.. even though he was green, at least his receivers, OL, RBs had 2 camps and a season and a half to learn it... This year everything was new to everybody...
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Perhaps, but I wouldn't think that the WCO is anywhere near as hard for receivers to learn. If they are playing the X receiver, and the play call is A, then they run "1" against man coverage, and "2" against zone, with the biggest difference being getting to a spot against zone, and continuing their route beyond that spot against man.
For example, as I understand it, if the outside receiver is covered by a CB in bump and run look, then he will run a slant. If the DB is playing off, then he will drag across the middle. If he is covered man, he might run a go, whereas he might run a hitch against zone. The receiver, obviously, doesn't have as many options to learn as the QB does. The QB has to know where up to 5 receivers are supposed to be on any given look.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Actually the WR in the WCO, has to see the same things the QB does (sight adjustments) more so then in another offense that might have an either or sight adjustment. For a WR in the WCO there can be multiple silent audible's on a given play. Timing is very (key) important, where the QB is supposed to throw to a spot on the field and it takes time for QB and receivers to get that chemistry together. The WR may or may not play multiple positions, I know that Little and Cribbs did last season and that's a lot of information to have to absorbed and be on the same page with the QB. Speaking of the QB ... He has to know what every eligible receiver's sight adjustments are and have perfect timing with all of them. That's why they say it takes 3 years to perfect and incidentally, It's probably a good reason why Holmgren say's it takes that long to know if a QB can be a successful starting QB or not. At least in the WCO, that he/we runs/run. Quote:
but you can't run all of your pass plays off of play action.
Bernie could with Mack and Byner. 
Just wanted to add some more thoughts.
All of the receivers need to be making the same silent audible's (reads).
That's why you will see two in the same area from time to time, because someone didn't make the proper read and that can be a killer.
So instead of one or possibly all receivers having a designed route and perhaps a 'hot read', they need an audible called from the QB to check to a different route. In the WCO that audible is silent. It's predicated on a defensive look. I think it kinda keeps their (receivers) heads in the game more so then other offenses.
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 03/05/12 09:40 PM.
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D.Ray White was a legend....here is some Buck Dancing.
Just had to comment on this to say that Jesco White is one of the craziest SoB's ever.
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Quote:
It does make me wonder what happened to the kid.
To those who believe McCoy is not capable, they need to watch Loyal's video and then be honest, what happened to the QB we saw in that video.
Enter Shurmur and McCoy's game went south...the entire offense went south...that's what happened. Whatever good Shurmur was supposed to bring to the Browns offense, it didn't show up.
I have said it before, McCoy, as a rookie, looked better in Daboll's offense than he looked in Shurmur's. Either Shurmur is a terrible teacher or his offense is more complicated than anything McCoy ever laid eyes on.
Then there is the lockout and the lack of an offseason program to help McCoy and the rest of the offense learn the WCO.
It is my opinion, McCoy is capable of playing much better than we saw last season and the blame for his decline was the result of many factors.
I believe Holmgren knows what went wrong and it is one of the reasons Childress was brought in. Shurmur has a lot to learn as a headcoach and offensive coordinator and Chilly can help with both, being a more experienced coach.
Do the Browns need another QB?
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Man,, after that post, I'd let you marry my sister. 
Send a picture
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#gmstrong
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Man,, after that post, I'd let you marry my sister.
Send a picture
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The QB has to know where up to 5 receivers are supposed to be on any given look.
Think about what you just said in the context of not having an off season or any coaching influence before training camp and learning that offense on the fly during the regular season.
If I didn't know better I'd say you were defending McCoy.
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very good post.
I've said all along theres more that ails the Browns offensive ineptness than just Colt McCoy.
The Browns so called intelligent 2 headed monster of Holmgren and Heckert did nothing in terms of making upgrades to the offense.
they tried to sell the fact to the masses that this new offense would actually turn WRs like Briana Robiskie and Mohommed Massaqiou into actual game changers.
Now you throw in players like Greg Little and Josh Cribbs who are still trying to transition to the WR position.
among the 4,there wasn't one that defenses had to dedicate any special coverage to. none of the 4 were capable of "blowing the lid off a secondary"
you figure there was one player that McCoy could count on to make a catch and make something happen after a catch.
Not even the elder statesman of the TE's Ben Watson could supply that.
Watson is savy enough to find openings underneath but he had the dropsies.
Jordan Cameron was a wasted a 4th RD pick.
There were better options in the 4th RD.
Brandon Jackson was a good idea for the offense as a 3rd down RB with hands is a tremendous asset.
he gets hurt,so what does Heckert do.....nothing.
so now Colt McCoy has really a mish mosh of 3rd and 4th tier options at WR/TE/RB. last in the league in rushing and leading the league in drops.
now you throw in a offensive line that doesn't run block well and the interior that gets constantly pushed back in the pocket.
you get a running game that cannot offset the inability of the passing game to attack vertically.
to add to it,Shurmur is inexperianced as a play caller.
He got out schemed in every game.
with his inexperiance,he went into conservative mode. Nothing helps a defense more than predicatibility on offense.
so now everyone expects McCoy to overcome all these things and yet forgetting he's a 3rd RD pick.
did anyone expect McCoy to overcome the stupid decisions that Holmgren and Heckert imposed on the offensive side of the ball?
now most people think if the Browns draft RG3,these issues will simply go away like a magician with a wand.
Thanks KS! Nice post! I think improving personnel helps whoever calls plays. Can you imagine playing a game of chess where you only get to use pawns while your opponent gets to use all the chess pieces? That's pretty much what we watched all of 2011. How fun is that? It's okay to raise the bar at WR considering how serious 3 other AFC North teams are about it.
This year we have a chance to add a bunch of chess pieces or just change our Kings. Since Lake Erie shores/winds don't invite the mindset of 60 yard throws from late October/early November through January - you CAN win with an arm as strong as Brian Sipe's. We've seen it at an MVP level. I'm not going to say I know McCoy's ceiling this early. Therefore, I don't have a problem with Cleveland drafting a QB that lands on their doorstep somewhere in this draft. I'll trust the research will be thorough from the experience we have above that now includes Bernie Kosar in that mix.
Again, I'm excited to see what we do with WR, RT, RDE, Secondary, RB, LBer and maybe even TE. I want to see personnel that can change the way defenses cram the box with 8-9 guys all the time against us. 2011 felt like we were throwing a ton of slant patterns into a crowded phone booth. Where are we going with that? If that was because of the QB's arm strength - we better worry more about the coaches and brass than the personnel, which isn't the case in my opinion. I could be wrong though. When you get that speedster like John Taylor opposite Jerry Rice - you've got uncontested underneath space, defensive zone depth/transition confusion, and open seems for a crafty TE like Brent Jones. Whoa boy, I'm getting way ahead of myself with names like that only to remember we have MoMass and Little as our #1 and #2 while Cribbs is our experienced guy manning down down WR #3 (with 0 years of college experience playing WR). When McCoy had a lot of favorable matchups to exploit as a college QB - he set a Division IA record for all time wins or winning percentage.
I hope we focus on building a team this draft and free agency period. The reason Cleveland never handles the injury volumes most other teams can overcome is as simple as how crappy this franchise has drafted since 1999. The cumulative effect speaks for itself. As a kid, I never understood why a knucklehead like me had to learn history every day. Today, I'm a Browns fan that can tell you exactly why. 
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Man,, after that post, I'd let you marry my sister.
Send a picture
Of her bank statement.
LOL,,
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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To those who believe McCoy is not capable, they need to watch Loyal's video and then be honest, what happened to the QB we saw in that video.
Enter Shurmur and McCoy's game went south...the entire offense went south...that's what happened. Whatever good Shurmur was supposed to bring to the Browns offense, it didn't show up.
I have said it before, McCoy, as a rookie, looked better in Daboll's offense than he looked in Shurmur's. Either Shurmur is a terrible teacher or his offense is more complicated than anything McCoy ever laid eyes on.
Oh, that "fair" argument again....remember how the 1st year version of Daboll's Offense looked?...and they had a normal offseason to prepare...to the vid: as YTown already said, he "managed" that game and worked out of PA 80% of the snaps because Hillis torched them...he looked more confident and knew where to go with the ball, but his throws still weren't very good...his deep balls were often underthrown and basically jump balls
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Do the Browns need another QB?
Only if you're of the opinion that the Browns should not be ok with bottom 3rd QB play...you think any not-Browns fan or analyst would rank McCoy even close to a Top 20 NFL QB?...even on "potential"? He has played at bottom 3rd QB level and has little to no upside...his cheerleaders are starting to look as irrational as the Mangini love when it was clear as day that he was not up to the job...I asked then what Mangini was good at and I got just stammering "believe in the process" BS rhetoric...now with McCoy it's "but everyone around him sucked"...yeah, that's a ringing endorsement...excuses, evading, finger poiting...sure sign of having no arguments
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Perhaps, but I wouldn't think that the WCO is anywhere near as hard for receivers to learn. If they are playing the X receiver, and the play call is A, then they run "1" against man coverage, and "2" against zone, with the biggest difference being getting to a spot against zone, and continuing their route beyond that spot against man.
I get that.. my point is that if everything goes as planned and the QB anticipates and throws the ball to the spot he thinks you are going to turn around but the spot where you actually turn around is 3 or 4 yards deeper, then the pass is at your knees or your feet and it looks like a really bad throw by the QB.. when in fact that may not have been the case. Those kinds of very subtle differences are what makes a good play vs a bad play and they can only be worked out over time and practice.. something we have had little of.. it may not be anybodys fault, just a difference in understanding.. and that is what our staff has to determine watching film.. how much of that is happening..
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The QB has to know where up to 5 receivers are supposed to be on any given look.
Think about what you just said in the context of not having an off season or any coaching influence before training camp and learning that offense on the fly during the regular season.
If I didn't know better I'd say you were defending McCoy.
Not everything that happened last year was McCoy's fault.
However, throwing only to the short receiver when deeper receivers were open was his fault. Not being accurate with throws to receivers on the move was his fault, completely missing east reads like a CB blitz off the edge was his fault, and so on. There were certain things that were not his fault ...... but enough that were that make me want a new QB. I simply do not feel that he can be good enough, even if he improves in every deficient area, to ever contend as the top QB in our division. Not everything was his fault. That does not automatically make him a good option.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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now with McCoy it's "but everyone around him sucked"...yeah, that's a ringing endorsement...excuses, evading, finger poiting...sure sign of having no arguments
DJ...how bout you tell everyone what areas of the offense need some upgrading in this offseason.
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I don't care who the qb is,he needs 10 other guys to execute. while the qb position is the most important one on the team,no other position is as dependent on his teamates as that one.
QBs are human..they are all different. Not everyone is Dan Marino,Brett Farve,or Bert Jones. some are like Ken Anderson, Drew Brees, Joe Montana.
for as great as Tom Brady is,as long as he's been the QB in NE,he's had very intelligent OC's and the terminology and philosophies haven't changed on offense.
Its been stable. Nothing has been overhauled from year to year.
to show you how much a QB needs a solid supporting cast look at Kurt Warner.
he goes from AFL QB to 3rd string on the Rams to the starter after Green got hurt.
all of a sudden he at the controls of the best offense in the NFL.
has a HOF RB,future HOF WR, great slot guy in Az Hakim....
well he finds himself in NY.
puts up very average stats as a Giant.
why? was it because his supporting cast just flat out couldn't get it done and you throw in he didn't have Mike Martz calling the offense?
Warner had no HOF's around him as a Giant. He had a very subpar cast.
He was throwing to above average at best WR's like Amani Toomer,who was always a #2.....a fast WR like Tim Carter,but too dumb to remember the plays and a someone named Mark Jones.
well Warner goes to Arizona and all of sudden is looking reborn...like a Phoenix.
that Cardinals offense was so potent one year,he had 3-1,000 YD WR's....which I think was a 1st..maybe the Chargers did it under Coryell?
but how did Warner go from AFL to All-Pro to looking average back to All-Pro?
Point being Colt McCoy might be that kind of QB where he needs some All-Pro talent around him and great coaching to get the most out of him.
and when is that a bad thing...isn't that the thing.......to put the best supporting cast around a QB?
and guess what,Holmgren and Heckert have failed to do that.
when you trot out bums like Brian Robiskie and Massaqiou and a cast of transplant WR's what do you expect. Now you throw in a head coach that really has no track record of success as a OC,what do you expect?
don't forget the Browns running game was expansion team like last year minus Hillis.
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now with McCoy it's "but everyone around him sucked"...yeah, that's a ringing endorsement...excuses, evading, finger poiting...sure sign of having no arguments
DJ...how bout you tell everyone what areas of the offense need some upgrading in this offseason.
I've done many times...been pretty consistent with that list
Tier 1 needs:
1. QB (a QB that doesnt go through progressions and cant make all the throws is usually a backup at best, no FA long term solution, only fix through draft, highest value position)
2. WR (easier to fix, there are true #1 WR in FA or can be drafted, true #1 would fix entire corps...prefer going vet FA and draft anotehr mid-round WR)
3. DE (need a RDE and better depth...depth can be adressed through FA, plenty of options...sign low level RDE starter in FA and draft a rook high and let them compete/share)
Tier 2:
4. FS (underrated need imho, true ballhwak is needed nowadays, but has been an unsexy position to play for College talents...many teams have the same problem...tough to fix this offseason, would be ok to give Hagg/another mid/late rounder a shot in 2012)
5. RT (position is gaining value but is rather easy to fix...draft only option, every AVG FA OT would have to be overpaid, no thanks to that)
Tier 3:
6. CB (need another future outside CB...if we don't resign Patterson->tier 2)
7. OLB (group is ok, 2of3 starters are set,need 1-2 for the future, easy to fix through draft or FA, prefer draft as high investments aren't necessary)
8. RB (plenty of good FAs and draft specs and not many RB needy teams, buyer's market)
Tier 4:
9. TE (long term this is a tier 3 need, but depth and other needs push this into "wait and see" mode)
10. G (pushing/competing with the youngsters, depth)
11. DT (rotational depth, pretty sure Heckert will look at FA Laws from Eagles)
#gmstrong
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I don't care who the qb is,he needs 10 other guys to execute. while the qb position is the most important one on the team,no other position is as dependent on his teamates as that one.
QBs are human..they are all different. Not everyone is Dan Marino,Brett Farve,or Bert Jones. some are like Ken Anderson, Drew Brees, Joe Montana.
for as great as Tom Brady is,as long as he's been the QB in NE,he's had very intelligent OC's and the terminology and philosophies haven't changed on offense.
Its been stable. Nothing has been overhauled from year to year.
to show you how much a QB needs a solid supporting cast look at Kurt Warner.
he goes from AFL QB to 3rd string on the Rams to the starter after Green got hurt.
all of a sudden he at the controls of the best offense in the NFL.
has a HOF RB,future HOF WR, great slot guy in Az Hakim....
well he finds himself in NY.
puts up very average stats as a Giant.
why? was it because his supporting cast just flat out couldn't get it done and you throw in he didn't have Mike Martz calling the offense?
Warner had no HOF's around him as a Giant. He had a very subpar cast.
He was throwing to above average at best WR's like Amani Toomer,who was always a #2.....a fast WR like Tim Carter,but too dumb to remember the plays and a someone named Mark Jones.
well Warner goes to Arizona and all of sudden is looking reborn...like a Phoenix.
that Cardinals offense was so potent one year,he had 3-1,000 YD WR's....which I think was a 1st..maybe the Chargers did it under Coryell?
but how did Warner go from AFL to All-Pro to looking average back to All-Pro?
Point being Colt McCoy might be that kind of QB where he needs some All-Pro talent around him and great coaching to get the most out of him.
and when is that a bad thing...isn't that the thing.......to put the best supporting cast around a QB?
and guess what,Holmgren and Heckert have failed to do that.
when you trot out bums like Brian Robiskie and Massaqiou and a cast of transplant WR's what do you expect. Now you throw in a head coach that really has no track record of success as a OC,what do you expect?
don't forget the Browns running game was expansion team like last year minus Hillis.
Well said. This wasn't a West Coast offense with John Taylor and Jerry Rice or Cris Carter and Randy Moss. This one featured MoMass and Little running themselves useless into coverages. These guys led the NFL in dropped passes; and I doubt it's because the QB was holding them back. MoMass didn't look any better with 2 other QBs in 2010 nor did he become a goto guy for Quinn or DA before that. And the other QB (Wallace) that actually had WCO experience prior to 2011 - didn't win any of his 3 starts in 2011. Aside from that, when he replaced Delhomme in 2010 - it's not like people missed him at all when he injured his ankle.
It sure seems like a lot of QBs began to succeed somewhere between age 26 and 28. There's a reason Holmgren hurried to say 3rd round QB McCoy wouldn't see the field as a rookie. Actually, there was about 18 million $ thrown at the 2 alternatives in front of him. Divine intervention put those 2 guys in walking boots; and McCoy provided a competitive spark until he also landed in a walking boot. We can all throw our spins on this thing; but more experienced QB alternatives haven't won a higher percentage of starts here in 2010 and 2011.
The day we replace the idea that MoMass is good enough to compete in the AFC North is the day we get serious about competing in the AFC North. Most of the best passing games have multiple choice of favorable matchups to exploit. We continue to equip our QBs with choosing the least of all evils. That's playing chess with pawns.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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