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I didn't know where to put this after my thrill we didn't have to beat giving up 3 first round draft picks to land the next Big 12 Passing prospect. I will confess to not being sold on Tannehill just yet especially as high as the #4 overall pick. I'm in favor of trading back or answering the door if Justin Blackmon is ringing the door bell at #4.
Turning this to who will compete with McCoy for future snaps at the most important position in today's game - here's what's on my mind. I've seen countless last minute (QB) workout wonders fly up out of nowhere to worn-out praises of "best workout ever." Ummm, just out of curiosity - who in these drills are hurrying the throws with JJ Watt-like levers up in the air or contesting the pass routes with NFL closing speeds? That's where you're going to learn what kind of poise the kid has to make the right throws under duress. And who assesses the most underrated intangible of all (vision/depth perception at the speed of the game)? Yes Kyle Koller can throw a football 60 yards from 1 knee on his time but to whom. On game day, he played Santa Claus to our defense enough for Charlie Frye to win the head to head. Anyway, we forget these top QB prospects land on teams that don't block Pollywannasacky after he walks up to the guard center gap. Lauvao didn't even touch this Safety he outweighed by 100 pounds in our world despite wanting to hit people after the whistle. I don't care who is playing QB here short of God if that's what he has to look forward to.
In any event, it's not like the Big 12 plays any defenses to make us understand whether we are witnessing a false positive or not. If Graham Harrell can throw 48 TD passes in 1 season with atrocious mechanics and bad habits - what's the challenge exactly? Seems like there's been a ton of disappointing QB prospects coming from that conference so maybe the culture shock of change to the NFL is bigger than us fans can fathom. Law of averages says one of these days the boy who cried wolf is actually going to see a wolf. We can back pocket that thought process unless/until fate has us weighing Colt McCoy vrs Ryan Tannehill.
While I realize the era has changed considerably since the 70s - who would have thought Joe Montana's college numbers projected the HOF QB we see in hindsight? And remember why Brady Quinn and Rick Mirer were allegedly 1st round QBs when Joe Montana needed to be a 4th round QB? Make sense? It shouldn't. Here's Montana's college numbers that would have draftniks everywhere talking about sexier football prospects all over again:
Year Team Comp% Yds TD INT Y/G Y/A RAT
1975 ND 42.4 507 4 8 72.4 7.7 102.7
1977 ND 52.4 1604 11 8 178.2 8.5 134.4
1978 ND 54.2 2010 10 9 182.7 7.7 124.9
There's also guys like Joe Theisman and Jeff Garcia that were informed they were best suited for CFL football first. When they got their NFL chance in the right system for the right coach - who said they needed prototypical height or arm strength? What did Jason Campbell, Heath Shuler or Patrick Ramsey equip Washington with that Theisman could not? Nothing.
If we now end up with a QB that falls on our doorstep without giving up 1 single draft pick - it might not be the bad news some will think it is. It's always been my understanding that you don't want to draft guys that have already played their best football at peak performance. You want some degree of untapped potential. I don't know who this will be but I think we're going to learn this draft had more than 2 good QB prospects when we look back on it 3 years from now. If one already fell in love with RGIII's Big 12 passing numbers - let's see who contested them specifically:
RANK DEFENSE TD YPG
14. Texas 31 315.33
62. Oklahoma 33 383.17
66. Texas A&M 42 386.50
74. Kansas St. 42 398.75
107. Ok St. 39 445.67
111. Rice 53 462.08
114. Baylor 56 477.50
115. Texas Tech 62 485.58
120. Kansas 68 516.42
If for some reason, we end up with Tannehill from that conference above here's how I would try to make myself feel better. He has the height to see what maybe McCoy cannot. He's untapped so maybe the ceiling is being completely overlooked by me. He's got the quickness to handle the out of pocket passing. Maybe being a former WR can have him better anticipating what his WRs will do in many situations he's already been in to have them on the same page. Best of all, if the QB idea becomes a disaster with him - he's already our best WR. Are there any QB prospects or other prospects from different positions you would like to discuss for pick #4 or even #22 in round 1?
Thanks!
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/10/12 01:56 PM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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After Luck & RG3, I don't feel there is another QB worthy of 1st rd. pick. Tannehill has 1 1/2 years as a starter?, Weeden is already old, Kellum Moore is too short (but I like him), Cousins is solid but no first.
I would go Blackmon 4, Best available OL or DE @22, then OL/DE with 2nd rd who we dont get.
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Quote:
After Luck & RG3, I don't feel there is another QB worthy of 1st rd. pick. Tannehill has 1 1/2 years as a starter?, Weeden is already old, Kellum Moore is too short (but I like him), Cousins is solid but no first.
I would go Blackmon 4, Best available OL or DE @22, then OL/DE with 2nd rd who we dont get.
Well done! I like your thinking Paco. Blackmon at #4 + the best available RT or RDE could really change the way we compete.
As a Vandy season ticker holder, I think they have a grand theft waiting for somebody in a mid round (Casey Hayward). Keep in mind he doesn't have the front 7 of Bama or LSU hurrying throws to make life wonderful. I'll bet he could increase his INT volume in such circumstances though. Anyway, here's his highlights from 2010 when I had season tickets to Vandy. He had an even better year in 2011. Check it out (just mute the trashy music and if the video stalls just click in the circle and it'll play without any more stalling on a smaller screen):
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZPeeShdycx4&feature=player_embedded#!
Here's the SEC INT leaders in 2011:
INTERCEPTIONS INT
1. Bacarri Rambo, UGA 8
2. Casey Hayward, VAN 7
3. Morris Claiborne, LSU 6
4. Johnthan Banks, MSST 5
5. Tramain Thomas, ARK 5
Understanding where Hayward ranked in 2011 with INTs, he had 6 in 2010. What jumps out at me is when he KNOWS he's not in position to make the tackle after a reception - he's terrific at outside leveraging/funneling the receiver inside back toward pursuit of teammates. Seems to play cornerback with great instinct in the sense that he's always in ideal position to make a play on the ball in spite of not having elite speed. Corner is more about agility, changing direction, flipping the hips and running fast forward and backward. For example, while Joe Haden ran disappointing Indy 40 times - he had elite cone drill times that kept many scouts from panic about his ability to play corner. Hayward is a really sound tackler like Joe Haden; but I get the impression he can make more interceptions after watching a lot of both kids in recent years. They would make great teammates here in Cleveland especially knowing we wouldn't have to burn a first round pick to land him.
This kid is battle-tested against impressive SEC competition ranging from Julio Jones to AJ Green to Alshon Jeffery to Reuben Randall to a plethera of Arkansas Receivers. In my opinion, the competition has never rendered him any less than looking like the best defensive player on the field for Vanderbilt. LOVE this kid especially where he can be had in the draft.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/10/12 08:11 PM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Any chance you're the guy I ran into a few weeks back at Melrose Pub and was telling about this board? Either way great to have another music city dawg on the board!
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/captainphil/browns bills sig 5.jpg) When it gets cold and snows and the wind blows, you gotta be able to run the ball. - TR
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Any chance you're the guy I ran into a few weeks back at Melrose Pub and was telling about this board? Either way great to have another music city dawg on the board!
That wasn't me; but glad to hear there's other passionate Browns fans in Middle TN like yourself. We'll have to meet up during football season. Thanks for the reply!
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Phil did you go to school in Middle Tennessee? Brentwood, Franklin,Gallatin?
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Nope. High school was mentor high school in mentor, ohio.
When it gets cold and snows and the wind blows, you gotta be able to run the ball. - TR
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Quote:
After Luck & RG3, I don't feel there is another QB worthy of 1st rd. pick. Tannehill has 1 1/2 years as a starter?, Weeden is already old, Kellum Moore is too short (but I like him), Cousins is solid but no first.
I would go Blackmon 4, Best available OL or DE @22, then OL/DE with 2nd rd who we dont get.
I'd go BPA at #4, and then Stephen Hill at #22 or #37 if they think he'll be available. From what I've seen of him at the combine and highlights, this kid seems legit.
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Technically Tannehill has over 50 starts. 30 just happened to be at receiver lol. It is a different kind of experience but it is experience.
BTW welcome to the board Ottomatic Flugel
When it comes to any college player, I hate spread offenses. It is hard to judge QBs. It is hard to judge WR's, other than their ability to find the open spot on the field. It is hard to judge offensive linemen and it is virtually impossible to judge RBs on anything other than blitz pickup and hands.
Now when it comes to QBs, I am more of a throwback on grading QBs. These old scouts they have a foot fetish when it comes to the position. The Throw starts with the toes.
I want to see quick feet and balance in the drops and I want to see that back leg plant and drive, this is your power. I want to see that front foot aimed at the target, this is your accuracy.
If you aren't planting your back foot and rolling your hip into the throw, it is all arm and although some guys can generate a strong throw, it is rare and those throws are awful rough on your shoulder.
Toes should be just like sights on a gun, aimed at your target. You get feet going left and right and you get a QB with 50% accuracy at best.
If a QB lacks good footwork, it generally isn't worth the trouble trying to develop. It is one of the reasons, I was not a fan of RG3, he defied football logic but bad footwork equates bad quarterback at the pro level virtually every time.
I like Weeden but again, he has poor footwork and balance. When forced to move slightly his feet never reset and it is a pure arm throw with the feet going every direction.
Upper body mechanics and throwing motion for most college QBs will need some tweaking. If it needs a major overhaul (Tebow), It isn't worth the effort. A slight dip in the shoulder, holding the ball a tad low or an inconsistent release point can generally be corrected. Get them used to holding the ball high and at the ear hole, some of kids want to be a gunslinger and bring that ball from the hip.
If the ball starts at the ear hole the release is so much quicker and more accurate. It is amazing at the difference.
next up is football smarts. Is the kid smart enough to absorb a playbook. Luck, RG3, Tannehill and Weeden are 4 of the smartest kids you will find. Football smarts well only way to find out is put them in front of a board let them break down video. spread QBs are at such a disadvantage as most never had a playbook.
Dedication to the game. Weeden's age wont be as big of a question for some as his love and dedication to the game. Tannehill gets major points in this as he played receiver until he was able to win the starting QB gig. You want film junkies.
Going through progressions and making the right read is just icing on the cake. With all these 1 read schemes, this part of the game is getting more difficult to evaluate as well. You want someone that has patience and goes through his progressions while keeping his feet beneath him, ready to throw.
Finally pocket presence is a must. Quick feet, quick read, quick release is all necessary but sometimes things dont work and you have to move around and buy time. Is your QB in panic mode if he has to move or does he have his eyes downfield. RG3, Tannehill and Luck are off the charts in this area. These kids are fearless.
When flushed do they keep their eyes downfield and begin directing traffic. Can they tuck it and finish? This is all bonus but it is becoming more and more necessary in the NFL with all these zone defenses.
Armstrength will improve for most of these kids as they tighten up their mechanics and their body matures. Also the NFL trainers are just fantastic at getting the most out of the individual, it is amazing. You don't want Hulk playing QB either, accuracy goes out the window with muscle bound guys.
Again I go back to QBs out of the spread. They put up big college numbers but you do not know if a guy can walk and chew bubble gum if he has never chewed gum before. You do not know how a QB is going to be able to make his drop, read the defense as he is dropping back, plants his back leg, aims the front foot, keeps the ball high and elbow tight, rolls his hips and fires to the receiver in stride until they are asked to do these things over and over and over.
Anyway, when you start looking at college QBs, you can learn more from watching their feet than you can from the end result on a play.
Everything is projection and you have to project how a guy is going to look a couple year's down the road not today. I know fans hate the word upside but there are two words everyone should hate more and that is finished product. This is why the words untapped potential was huge in Heckerts description of Tannehill.
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Try the Loveless Cafe out on hwy 100. good stuff
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CB is one of the hardest positions to play IMO in the NFL. (well QB too)
with all the rules in regards that favor the offense,it is very difficult for a CB to do what he's asked to do.
I'm just rambling here..but the one throw I see that is hard for any CB to defend is that back shoulder throw to the WR.
WRs aren't exactly getting slower or smaller.
Thats why I think its always better to go with a CB that is 6'0 to 6'3. Nice long arms and should be able turn and open their hips..and this my little theroy,have some basketball in their background.
IMO you can't wrong with a CB from the SEC....the best in the NFL come from there.....Champ Bailey, Patrick Peterson,Johnathon Josepth,Joe Haden,Carlos Rogers,.
I think SEC CB's and WR's are the best in the NFL cause they have to matchup every week with each other..I could be wrong...
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Ben Roethlisberger played in a spread.
Joe Flacco played in a spread.
Andy Dalton played in a spread.
The year before Roethlisberger arrived in Pittsburgh, the Steelers went 6-10. he started as a rookie. They won the Super Bowl. It wasn't all him by any stretch, but he was good enough to get them there and win it.
Joe Flacco arrived in Baltimore with them coming off of a 5-11 season. He took them to the playoffs. 4 years in a row now.
Andy Dalton arrived in Cincinnati with that team coming off a 4-12 season, and with exactly 1 winning season in the prior 5. He took them to the playoffs.
These 3 guys have been in the NFL a collective 13 seasons. Each entered the league with his team coming off of a losing season. Between them they have one "non winning" season, that being an 8-8 season by the Steelers in 2006. Other than that these guys have winning records every single one of those 12 other years.
I would say that spread QBs can be pretty damn successful if handled correctly.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I would say that spread QBs can be pretty damn successful if handled correctly.
... and drafted onto a team with a lot of talent, few holes in the roster and in need of some talent at the QB position. (In the bengals case they had the talent on the roster and at the QB position. But the team was overtaken by a couple of receivers who felt themselves bigger than the team and a QB who was fed up up with that dynamic).
Otherwise you may be looking at quite some time while an OL, a running game, a receiving corps and a decent defensive team is built.
All three of the QB's you mentioned were drafted onto teams that were lacking only a QB. In the case of the bengals they also needed to change the culture of the team and that happened in addition by subtraction when T.O. and Chad the showman were let go.
#gmstrong
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Ben Roethlisberger played in a spread.
Joe Flacco played in a spread.
Andy Dalton played in a spread
Like there was no one else on those teams...just a QB.
When will some understand that football is played with 11 players on offense and not just a QB...
I have to laugh about the props for Andy Dalton...with a much superior supporting cast surrounding Dalton than the Browns had last season, he only managed to throw for 2.2 more yds per game than the Browns QB...
The Bengals made the playoffs in spite of Dalton, not because of Dalton's superior ability or play.
Success or failure in football depends on the performance of the team of 11 on both O and D...not the team of 1 on the O.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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The year before Roethlisberger arrived in Pittsburgh, the Steelers went 6-10. he started as a rookie. They won the Super Bowl. It wasn't all him by any stretch, but he was good enough to get them there and win it.
Fact Check time.. They didn't win the Superbowl his first year in the league,, they lost the AFC Championship game to the eventual SB winning Pats.
The next year, they went to and won the superbowl over the Seahawks.
But, your point is made, he had an amazing impact on the Steelers..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Otherwise you may be looking at quite some time while an OL, a running game, a receiving corps and a decent defensive team is built.
It could be argued that the Browns have a decent OL, and defensive team, and possible running game if we see the 2010 Hillis, we'd have a decent running game.
But with 3 picks in the first #37 spots, we could easily get a #1 WR, RT and a DE.
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Technically Tannehill has over 50 starts. 30 just happened to be at receiver lol. It is a different kind of experience but it is experience.
BTW welcome to the board Ottomatic Flugel
When it comes to any college player, I hate spread offenses. It is hard to judge QBs.
I am more of a throwback on grading QBs. These old scouts they have a foot fetish when it comes to the position. The Throw starts with the toes.
I want to see quick feet and balance in the drops and I want to see that back leg plant and drive, this is your power. I want to see that front foot aimed at the target, this is your accuracy.
If you aren't planting your back foot and rolling your hip into the throw, it is all arm and although some guys can generate a strong throw, it is rare and those throws are awful rough on your shoulder.
Toes should be just like sights on a gun, aimed at your target. You get feet going left and right and you get a QB with 50% accuracy at best.
If a QB lacks good footwork, it generally isn't worth the trouble trying to develop. It is one of the reasons, I was not a fan of RG3, he defied football logic but bad footwork equates bad quarterback at the pro level virtually every time.
I like Weeden but again, he has poor footwork and balance. When forced to move slightly his feet never reset and it is a pure arm throw with the feet going every direction.
Upper body mechanics and throwing motion for most college QBs will need some tweaking. If it needs a major overhaul (Tebow), It isn't worth the effort. A slight dip in the shoulder, holding the ball a tad low or an inconsistent release point can generally be corrected. Get them used to holding the ball high and at the ear hole, some of kids want to be a gunslinger and bring that ball from the hip.
If the ball starts at the ear hole the release is so much quicker and more accurate. It is amazing at the difference.
football smarts. Is the kid smart enough to absorb a playbook. Luck, RG3, Tannehill and Weeden are 4 of the smartest kids you will find. Football smarts well only way to find out is put them in front of a board let them break down video. spread QBs are at such a disadvantage as most never had a playbook.
Dedication to the game. Weeden's age wont be as big of a question for some as his love and dedication to the game. Tannehill gets major points in this as he played receiver until he was able to win the starting QB gig. You want film junkies.
Going through progressions and making the right read is just icing on the cake. With all these 1 read schemes, this part of the game is getting more difficult to evaluate as well. You want someone that has patience and goes through his progressions while keeping his feet beneath him, ready to throw.
Finally pocket presence is a must. Quick feet, quick read, quick release is all necessary but sometimes things dont work and you have to move around and buy time. Is your QB in panic mode if he has to move or does he have his eyes downfield. RG3, Tannehill and Luck are off the charts in this area. These kids are fearless.
When flushed do they keep their eyes downfield and begin directing traffic. Can they tuck it and finish? This is all bonus but it is becoming more and more necessary in the NFL with all these zone defenses.
Armstrength will improve for most of these kids as they tighten up their mechanics and their body matures. Also the NFL trainers are just fantastic at getting the most out of the individual, it is amazing. You don't want Hulk playing QB either, accuracy goes out the window with muscle bound guys.
Again I go back to QBs out of the spread. They put up big college numbers but you do not know if a guy can walk and chew bubble gum if he has never chewed gum before. You do not know how a QB is going to be able to make his drop, read the defense as he is dropping back, plants his back leg, aims the front foot, keeps the ball high and elbow tight, rolls his hips and fires to the receiver in stride until they are asked to do these things over and over and over.
Anyway, when you start looking at college QBs, you can learn more from watching their feet than you can from the end result on a play.
Everything is projection and you have to project how a guy is going to look a couple year's down the road not today. I know fans hate the word upside but there are two words everyone should hate more and that is finished product. This is why the words untapped potential was huge in Heckerts description of Tannehill.
Thanks Mourgrym! That was very insightful and well put. I tried to capture my favorite points you made above.
Back in 1999, when Cleveland was deciding between Tim Couch and Akili Smith - they refused to look at the 1 QB capable of changing the worst franchise of 1998 into a team that frequented playoffs from about 2000 through 2010. They learned McNabb was the QB of George DeLeone's Veer Option passing game up in Syracuse; and assumed that won't translate to the NFL. One problem. Brett Favre played in a very similar offense at Southern Miss - so guess what team was most interested in McNabb? The one with Andy Reid who was a part of the offensive staff that developed Brett Favre in Green Bay.
You highlighted a lot of great assessment criteria above especially that footwork. Check out this pre-draft scouting report of Drew Brees from Dave-Te' Thomas: Negatives... Plays in the spread offense, taking the bulk of his snaps from the shotgun... Tends to side-arm his passes going deep...Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws... Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack...Does not possess the ideal height you look for in a pro passer, though his ability to scan the field helps him compensate in this area...Will improvise and run when the passing lanes are clogged, but tends to run through defenders rather than trying to avoid them to prevent unnecessary punishment.
Doesn't it feel like someone recycled this 9 years later for McCoy?. Here's my take on it. What is coachable and what is not? Drew Brees had a disappointing 3rd NFL season with 11 TDs to 15 INTs while sporting the a passer rating of 67.5 as well as the NFL's worst record. Guess what that led to? A GM saying they needed a real QB with the very first pick while Marty Schottenheimer was saying they already the right QB just needing surrounding help. Some of those scouting negatives take realistic developmental time on a bad football team. It's not as easy as the casual fan saying "well if he isn't making everyone around him better immediately he's a waste of time." Look at Brees after his first 3 years - and you'll see he later became a QB that could make everyone around him better when the development process had fully completed itself.
Holmgren comes from your throwback school of thinking. He didn't even want McCoy to see the field in 2010 but 18 million $ worth of alternatives were wearing walking boots on the sidelines and Mccoy outplayed both guys. Holmgren believes in developing a young QB through growing pains. Wasn't Favre called "Wild Thing" early on? That's when his footwork was unpredictable; because as a high school QB he rushed for over 3000 yards in the career. More specifically, his own dad (as Head Coach) thought Brett was more of a Josh Cribbs type of QB than a prolific NFL passer to be. The kid was really raw but flashed untapped passing skills at Southerm Miss. This is exactly where the right NFL environment matters a great deal for this type of untapped talent. If Favre stayed with Jerry Glanville, he would have remained an untrained passer nobody would remember. Fortunately, he went with Mike Holmgren and became one the best passers of an era.
I'll trust the research Heckert, Holmgren and Shurmur throw into this draft.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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CB is one of the hardest positions to play IMO in the NFL. (well QB too)
with all the rules in regards that favor the offense,it is very difficult for a CB to do what he's asked to do.
I'm just rambling here..but the one throw I see that is hard for any CB to defend is that back shoulder throw to the WR.
WRs aren't exactly getting slower or smaller.
Thats why I think its always better to go with a CB that is 6'0 to 6'3. Nice long arms and should be able turn and open their hips..and this my little theroy,have some basketball in their background.
IMO you can't wrong with a CB from the SEC....the best in the NFL come from there.....Champ Bailey, Patrick Peterson,Johnathon Josepth,Joe Haden,Carlos Rogers,.
I think SEC CB's and WR's are the best in the NFL cause they have to matchup every week with each other..I could be wrong...
Bingo!
The SEC stockpiles the NFL with WRs and CBs while it continues to crown one National Champion after another. There's an occasional uh-oh; but many of these kids come equipped with a confident swagger knowing the level of competition they had to maintain in conference every single week. They go from a Mike Wallace to a Percy Harvin to a Julio Jones to an AJ Green to a Dwayne Bowe to a Denarius Moore to an Alshon Jeffery to the Arkansas group. Even scarier, it all goes on film that scouts want to see. Look what happens when these guys go out of conference. How many times did we see film of that Colorado Corner Jimmy Smith getting embarrassed by AJ Green?
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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the big difference I see in Dalton and McCoy has nothing to do with mechanics or really the supporting cast on the field.....
it comes down to 2 things..
1.Personality. Dalton is a very fiery competitor. His teamates feed off that.
He's on the sidelines,high fivein guys, gettin all fired up talking to everyone on the offense.
he's the same guy after he throws a INT or TD.
McCoy just doesn't radiate any kind of emotion like that. I have never seen him lambaste a WR for running a route wrong or getting on a TE for not giving his all on a route
2. Jay Gruden is a very intelligent OC. He took the same verbage they used at TCU and used it in his offense. He basically instilled alot of Dalton learned at TCU
and tranposed it to the NFL level.
having A.J Green doesn't hurt either. but a QB and WR need to establish a bridge of trust.
Colt McCoy doesn't have a WR on this roster that I would call "fearless"
I saw Dalton on a highlight film throw into triple coverage to A.J Green vs the Steelers and he came down with it.
does Colt have a WR that has that kind of confidence in himself to pull that off?
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I just hope that the Browns don't spend a high pick on a QB just because they need one. They have to love the guy to use a high pick. If they reach on one of these 2nd tier players and it doesn't pan out they have wasted the pick and all of the developmental time. If Tannehill's ceiling is Jason Campbell, then I would rather use my high draft pick on something else.
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I just hope that the Browns don't spend a high pick on a QB just because they need one. They have to love the guy to use a high pick. If they reach on one of these 2nd tier players and it doesn't pan out they have wasted the pick and all of the developmental time. If Tannehill's ceiling is Jason Campbell, then I would rather use my high draft pick on something else.
after luck and rg,, there really isn't one worthy of a top 10 pick..
Now, if we trade down from 4........ all bets are off
#GMSTRONG
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I would say that spread QBs can be pretty damn successful if handled correctly.
... and drafted onto a team with a lot of talent, few holes in the roster and in need of some talent at the QB position. (In the bengals case they had the talent on the roster and at the QB position. But the team was overtaken by a couple of receivers who felt themselves bigger than the team and a QB who was fed up up with that dynamic).
Otherwise you may be looking at quite some time while an OL, a running game, a receiving corps and a decent defensive team is built.
All three of the QB's you mentioned were drafted onto teams that were lacking only a QB. In the case of the bengals they also needed to change the culture of the team and that happened in addition by subtraction when T.O. and Chad the showman were let go.
Each guy was drafted by a team that had been losing ....... and they are no longer losing. Go look up the records.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I wonder if their former QB's had anything to do with that losing? In the case of the Steelers and the Rats they were very talented teams with loser QB's.
That can't be said of our Browns.
And those two had previous successes before the losing seasons. And when they changed head coaches they didn't go into wholesale rebuild mode because they didn't have to.
We're not like those teams. We don't have a talented roster who enjoyed previous success and have that to build on.
The records are nothing but meaningless stats again. Look underneath the "records" and you'll see the full story of how it came about.
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Oh, I'm sure that there is some truth to that ....... however, in the case of the Ravens for example, They were and up and down team prior to Flacco's arrival. In the 6 years prior to his arrival they were 7-9, 10-6, 9-7, 6-10, 13-3, and 5-11. Since Flacco arrived in Baltimore, they have gone 11-5, 9-7, 12-4, and 12-4.
Pretty big difference.
I do seem to recall that the Ravens "couldn't find WRs" for the longest time as well. When they had guys like Kyle Boller at QB, they just couldn't find effective WRs .......... Now they are able to find a few here or there.
In those 5 years prior to Flacco's arrival in Baltimore, they scored 391, 317, 265, 353, and 275 points. Since they have scored 385, 391, 357, 378.
By comparison, we scored 218 points last year after scoring 271 the year before.
The Bengals scored 344 points last year, which was more than the 4 prior years.
The Steelers haven't scored fewer than 300 points since 1998. Their scoring has mostly been up though since Roethlisberger took over. The exception was that one great year Maddox had.
Anyway ....... I have a rather long article to post, so I am going to post it on a separate post.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Around the NFL: Browns find themselves in a QB quandary - Canton, OH - CantonRep.com http://www.cantonrep.com/browns/x1907503...quandary?zc_p=1The Browns are in the deadliest market in the NFL. That doesn’t change a lick after Robert Griffin III got stolen out from under them. Still shopping for The Man, the sign keeps blinking like a warning in the night: Be careful out there. Item: The 1999 Browns spent a No. 1 overall draft pick on quarterback Tim Couch, who was never the Man. The 2012 Browns might have traded up to draft Griffin. Instead, Washington got itself in a trillion-dollar deficit, so to speak, with the freaky mortgage required to nab RG III. The Browns might have paid a bunch, too. It can be argued the Redskins stole Griffin. It could play out that Washington paid a stupid price and saved the Browns from themselves. Heckert warns against believing reports of what was offered. “The media stuff is ... it’s crazy,” he says. “I mean, some of the stuff is just bizarre.” On the other hand, Heckert admits he talked with the Rams two years ago when Cleveland was parked at No. 7 and inquired about dealing up to No. 1 to pick Sam Bradford. “We were willing to give up a lot,” Heckert said. Shortly before Washington did the deed, Heckert gave a scattered view of Griffin. It’s funny how treading through the deadliest market in the NFL makes a GM talk. Heckert said: “I don’t know if it’s a once in a life ... I ... I don’t know. I think from an athletic ... I mean, you look at Cam (Newton). I mean, last year ... last year, Cam’s 6-6, 250. “I mean, THAT might be a one-in-a-lifetime deal with Cam last year. Talk about a guy that runs the football and tough and all that stuff, so, with ... that’s a giant ... so, where this guy (Griffin) is a super athlete that’s super fast, but he’s obviously not near the size of Cam Newton, so, you know, I guess to answer your question, the last two drafts have been pretty impressive, you know. And then, I mean, like I said, you throw in (Andrew) Luck. “I mean. Luck ran — what? — 4.56 and that ... I mean, he’s a PHEEE-NOM athlete for a guy he’s size, so ... the last two have been pretty good, if you can throw those three in there.” When talking about less sensitive subjects, Heckert usually speaks with clarity and often candor. ITEM The Atlanta Falcons spent a No. 1 pick on once-in-a-lifetime quarterback Michael Vick. Thirteen games into Vick’s third season, head coach Dan Reeves got fired. The sense is that Griffin will be a better player than Vick. At the moment, he has the same number of NFL victories as Josh Booty. On the other hand, Matt Flynn has won in the NFL — once, with Green Bay. Yet, he has been in the NFL for four years. What about going after a free-agent quarterback to be the starter, Mr. Heckert? “Ummm,” Heckert said. “Yeah, I mean, I think so, yeah, you know ... it ... because ... I still ... we’ve got to make sure we’re ... you know, we’re not down on Colt McCoy.” Pardon the gibberish. It’s not a question of whether the Browns are interested in Flynn. It’s a question of who will offer him what, and whether Cleveland appeals to him. McCoy, meanwhile, has the same NFL quarterbacking record Seneca Wallace: 6-15. McCoy was a Heckert-Mike Holmgren third-round pick in 2010, Wallace a Holmgren fourth-round pick in 2003. Heckert notes that NFL starters tend to be first-rounders. His notes get fuzzy when he is asked if McCoy can outplay his draft status. “If you look throughout, I mean, it’s just ... it’s hard to explain,” Heckert said. “I mean like ... obviously when Aaron Rodgers came out ... I’m not comparing Colt to Aaron Rodgers (looks a questioner in the eye). “People killed Aaron Rodgers. They KILLED him. He went 26th (actually 24th overall in the 2005 draft), and they were like, WHY did you take him? “I mean, no one liked him. You know ... He was average size and just ... and so ... I mean ... and that’s obviously a different example, but ... “Andy Dalton. It was the same. You know, people ... it was like ... this guy’s small ... So, I don’t know ... “So, it (finding QBs outside the top of the draft) is done. And, and ... look at the top guys who have been terrible. I mean, It’s way more of those guys that are bad than ... I mean, it’s ... it’s NOT good.” Understood, Tom. • ITEM In 2002, the first and third overall draft picks were quarterbacks David Carr and Joey Harrington. Coach Dom Capers was 18-46 in Houston after Carr was selected. At least he wasn’t fired until after his fourth year. The Lions canned coach Marty Mornhinweg at the end of Harrington’s rookie year, then went less than three years with Steve Mariucci before deciding he couldn’t make Harrington fly, either. The 2012 QB draft pool seems far more promising than it was 10 years ago. Andrew Luck and Griffin will be gone before the Browns pick at No. 4. Maybe the Browns could get lucky by drafting Texas A&M’s Ryan Tannehill at No. 22. “(Tannehill) is fairly new to the position,” Heckert said. “He was playing wide receiver. “He’s a big kid, strong arm. He’s another kid who looks like a quarterback. I think he’s got a lot of upside to him. I really do.” Short and sweet. • ITEM The last three quarterbacks picked at No. 22 were Rex Grossman, J.P. Losman and Brady Quinn. Their teams soon got rid of them or their coaches or both. Maybe it would be less risky to spend a lower pick, perhaps the Browns’ 37th selection, on sleeper Brandon Weeden. Then they could keep the No. 4 and No. 22 picks and have a still have a quarterback who could be weighed against McCoy in camp. “The kid (old man Weeden turns 29 this year) obviously is pushing the stuff, but it’s true,” Heckert said. “He’s mature, and he’s telling you it’s a positive, and it IS. “He’s been through a lot. He’s played baseball. He’s won a ton of games and has thrown for a ton of yards at Oklahoma State. “So he’s a really interesting guy as to where he’s gonna go. But we like him. We really do ... like him a lot. “He’s a great kid. Super smart. I’ve got a buddy on the staff down there that just raves about the kid.” Hmmm ... He had a lot more to say about Weeden than he did about Tannehill. • ITEM Veteran quarterbacks who have received chances to start with teams other than their original stops include Matt Schaub, Matt Cassel, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Kevin Kolb. Their growth graphics look like Peyton Hillis’, not Peyton Manning’s. Even the best among them, Schaub, has been stifled by injuries. Where does that history leave Flynn in the minds of Heckert and Holmgren? Heckert was in Philadelphia when the Eagles spent a second-round pick on Kolb. “I’ve only drafted two (quarterbacks), Kevin Kolb and Colt,” Heckert said. “I still think Kevin’s going to be a good player. Time will tell on that. “He still hasn’t played a whole lot, even last year ... he was hurt. “Colt ... I think Colt’s proven that he can play.” Whatever that means. At this time last year, Heckert was saying Brian Robiskie might break through at wide receiver. It can be amusing, at least, to hear Heckert talk about The Man. Here he is, for example, responding to a question about how Luck compares to Griffin. Get a load of this: “Boy. They’re just ... they’re different. They’re different. They’re different. Yeah ... they’re just different. “I think you can say that about RG III and everybody. I mean, they’re just different. They’re different types of guys. “I mean, Andrew Luck and RG III are (pause) 100 percent different guys. They are. He’s just ... he’s just such a superb athlete that umm ... you know it’s ... it’s ... some of the stuff is like ...” There are still several directions Heckert and Holmgren, could go. How is one to cut through all of this? Maybe Heckert did it in two words on Thursday. Asked whether he would attend Griffin’s Pro Day on March 21, he spat out two words almost before the question was out: “Oh yeah.” Now what? Oh no? RG III or no RG III, Heckert still has to somehow make it OK.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Really classy article trying to denote ever pause and expression in order to make Heckert look like he doesnt know what he is doing.
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I sure hope Stevie Doerschuk didn't cry himself to sleep last night after hearing that the Redskins paid a kings ransom for the Rams pick.
They say misery loves company...maybe Stevie's 'woe is me' article will be comforting for those who are still in tears over the trade deal the skins made with the rams.
Time to get over it and move on, Browns fans.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Well, evidently the Browns refused to give permission for reporters to actually use the footage of the presser. They were allowed to use recordings for transcription purposes only.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I just hope that the Browns don't spend a high pick on a QB just because they need one. They have to love the guy to use a high pick. If they reach on one of these 2nd tier players and it doesn't pan out they have wasted the pick and all of the developmental time. If Tannehill's ceiling is Jason Campbell, then I would rather use my high draft pick on something else.
Couldn't say it any better than that Chinchilla - thanks! 
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This is one of the rare times that u see this stuff happen outside of political articles. The Browns have been ripping the media and this may have been some payback and ordinarily I wouldnt mind but the fact the guy just finished heart surgery and they do this bothers me.
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Regardless of any of that, it seems obvious that the QB the Browns (and Heckert) are most "on" right now is Weeden. It would not surprise me to see us draft him in the 2nd round (or maybe even at 22) ...... which is probably too soon ...... but I just don't see how they can "miss" another QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Tannehill pretty much has the highest ceiling, but he also has the lowest floor. Major boom or major bust.
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I just hope that the Browns don't spend a high pick on a QB just because they need one. They have to love the guy to use a high pick. If they reach on one of these 2nd tier players and it doesn't pan out they have wasted the pick and all of the developmental time. If Tannehill's ceiling is Jason Campbell, then I would rather use my high draft pick on something else.
Couldn't say it any better than that Chinchilla - thanks!
If Tannehill's ceiling is what?
When you find that crystal ball that can look 5 yrs into the future, you let us know.
Tannehill could end up making it big in the NFL, leading a team to multiple Super Bowls and RGIII could be the next Matt Leinart.
All of us, including fans, writers and media talking heads are free to dream and pretend they have a crystal ball that will tell them what the future holds...
...but as we all know, there is no crystal ball that can look into the future...just a lot of "guessing" at what the future might hold...nothing more.
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This is one of the rare times that u see this stuff happen outside of political articles. The Browns have been ripping the media and this may have been some payback and ordinarily I wouldnt mind but the fact the guy just finished heart surgery and they do this bothers me.
It doesn't bother me and I'm sure it doesn't bother Tom Heckert either. Heckert doesn't have to prove anything to these guys. It's like they feel like RG3 was going to be their date to the prom and to find out that the date is going with someone else. Get over it.
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Regardless of any of that, it seems obvious that the QB the Browns (and Heckert) are most "on" right now is Weeden. It would not surprise me to see us draft him in the 2nd round (or maybe even at 22) ...... which is probably too soon ...... but I just don't see how they can "miss" another QB.
Obvious to whom? You're reading articles written by someone that's got to slap something together, no matter how stupid it is.
I don't think it's obvious to anyone who the Browns intend to draft, now or before the dowry that Washington paid to St. Louis for the right to draft RG3.
It might have been possible that the Browns would have drafted RG3 at #4 if he had fallen there, but we don't even know that. It's all speculation and conjecture.
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mac, why do you even bother with draft articles? All you ever say is that no one knows.
You're right. None of us know for sure. We all guess. In some cases they are more educated guesses than in others, but in the end, with any player, anything can happen. A guy could have his fiancée leave him and it shatters him. he could blow out a shoulder or knee on the first day of camp. He could turn into Tom Brady. However, in most cases, the top guys are more successful than the bottom guys, and a 1st round guy generally gets more of a chance than a 7th round guy to show what he can do.
We get that. That's not news. However, if no one expresses an opinion on these boards, they're going to be really quiet.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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mac, why do you even bother with draft articles? All you ever say is that no one knows.
You're right. None of us know for sure.
I know... but I'm not telling
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the big difference I see in Dalton and McCoy has nothing to do with mechanics or really the supporting cast on the field.....
it comes down to 2 things..
1.Personality. Dalton is a very fiery competitor. His teamates feed off that.
He's on the sidelines,high fivein guys, gettin all fired up talking to everyone on the offense.
he's the same guy after he throws a INT or TD.
McCoy just doesn't radiate any kind of emotion like that. I have never seen him lambaste a WR for running a route wrong or getting on a TE for not giving his all on a route
2. Jay Gruden is a very intelligent OC. He took the same verbage they used at TCU and used it in his offense. He basically instilled alot of Dalton learned at TCU
and tranposed it to the NFL level.
having A.J Green doesn't hurt either. but a QB and WR need to establish a bridge of trust.
Colt McCoy doesn't have a WR on this roster that I would call "fearless"
I saw Dalton on a highlight film throw into triple coverage to A.J Green vs the Steelers and he came down with it.
does Colt have a WR that has that kind of confidence in himself to pull that off?
I really like your point 2 because Cincy wasn't throwing slant patterns into a crowded phone booth (9 men in the box) all year. That's probably got more to do with the dropped passes here than anything else. Gruden wasn't playing chess with pawns either. The difference between AJ Green and a RB turned WR in Little is that one was a monster in traffic; while the other one looked like Danny Ferry. Much of that stemmed from experience and polish playing the position. Shurmur basically gave Little the most reps of any WR on the team so I think AJ Green makes 1 young QB a huge beneficiary while Cleveland contemplates why it had the largest volume of drops. Circus catches of alley ooops and rainbows warrant high 5s. Drops and more drops reduce confidence of a young QB getting hit on every play.
About the fiery personality. I've seen McCoy pull himself up off the turf after wearing a man named Suh like a jersey for seemingly the duration of the Big 12 Championship. And do you know at the end the McCoy led offense erased a deficit to win the Big 12 Championship? If that example stunk, how many QBs would have gone right back in after that Harrison hit he took?
How about when we had 18 million $ worth of QB alternatives in 2010 in walking boots on the sidelines. This team clearly didn't believe in either overpaid veteran. Then, we had a 3 game stretch that looked to me like it was the first time our entire team trusted the new leader at QB. We beat New Orleans when the defense scored twice and Hillis ran a 5k with the football between the tackles. As soon as New Orleans tried to cheat a Safety into the box to stop Hillis, McCoy threw to Cribbs down the right sidelines which drew an interference penalty. We learned Wallace could never keep sideline throws in-bounds so it wouldn't have drawn the flags a more accurate McCoy received on such a play. There's the winning difference I saw between the 2 QBs.
Anyway, McCoy game managed us to victory over New England when he hit key 3rd down throws and the last one was to Cribbs that gave us a first and goal scenario. BB didn't feel comfortable cheating a Safety up so Hillis ran a 10k with the football between the tackles. We started getting wide spread respect from some of the post game shows we weren't getting when Delhomme and Wallace were starting. I saw it and the high 5s and chest bumps accompanied the action showing me the team believed in the leadership. 1 week later, the NY Jets were easily a more talented team that McCoy had to drive us to a game tying TD late. Not only did McCoy lead us into overtime; but he was making all the right reads and throws to get the ball to their side of the 50. In fact, another completion that should have resulted in a first down for Cleveland became a Stuckey fumble at the Jets 30 yard line giving NY a first down. Hard to say that wasn't fiery leadership from our young QB. Those were all good signs until he injured his ankle the next week vrs Jax. Even in that game, McCoy erased a late deficit only to see Jones-Drew take a screen pass 84 yard for the game winning TD. And then we witnessed Jake Delhomme leading us to just 7 points vrs a very bad Buffalo team when McCoy had to wear the walking boot. It wasn't hard for me to notice what QB this team believed in in 2010.
I think Andy Dalton was the most equivalent QB to Colt McCoy we've seen. People forget the first time we played Cincy - McCoy erased Dalton's lead despite the reality we Hicks and Cousins couldn't block Carlos Dunlap all afternoon. In the end, Bruce Gradkowski threw the game winning TD to AJ Green when he no huddled our defense that was in a huddle. Dalton had nothing to do with it. We could have swapped QBs this year and Cincy still would have witnessed AJ Green doing the circus catches while Greg Little and MoMass would have remained looking like upgrades are definitely needed at the WR position in Cleveland.
Until we stop playing chess with pawns at WR - it's hard to get excited about the passing game. We should ask ourselves 1 very important question, what WR gives us a favorable matchup to exploit on game day? Well, here comes a draft with a polished WR like Blackmon that will be on our doorstep in all likelihood or others. Like my coach back in the stone age used to say: "If we fail to prepare then we should prepare to fail."
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/11/12 04:17 PM.
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Well, evidently the Browns refused to give permission for reporters to actually use the footage of the presser. They were allowed to use recordings for transcription purposes only.
Really? well that just sucks.. wonder why they would do that? wait,, where did you get that info?
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From a WKNR report I heard. The host wanted to hear the audio, and the reporter inside the presser said that the Browns refused permission to use the audio in a broadcast, that they could only use it for transcription purposes.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Projecting A Prolific Passer in
Round 1 isn't an Exact Science
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