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Okay, you look at the QB position and that's a good barometer. You also look at winning obviously. In order to do either you have to first understand where we have been in order to get to where we need to be. Ok. So what else do we look at here?
The speed of recovery and the ability to maintain it will be of utmost importance. Let's take a look at some of the essentials to making that happen.
I always say you look at how well a team handles injury volumes and then you apply the uniqueness of the situation to it before proceeding with criticism. Heckert and Holmgren were handed a mess so I gave them some leeway. We've witnessed about a decade of disappointing draft volumes in terms of keepers and consistent productivity. That doesn't make it easy on the next brass in charge of roster purge and turnover.
Moving forward. What happens when a starter at Right Tackle can't play like we've helplessly watched so often? Are you stuck with St Clair again or do you now require Kissing Cousins or Hicks to play docey doe like a matador with an ambitious Carlos Dunlap type? We not only need a RT this year but we need better depth should we lose the next starter at RT. We also saw how tough it was to replace LG Eric Steinbach especially with inexperience. Hopefully, inexperience was the only problem at both OG spots.
If any of our current WRs got hurt, I don't think I'd notice much a difference to be honest. Scary! If this position doesn't improve - our next QB needs to be God himself.
Defensively, if we add a force on the right edge of our Defense - I really think our defense will be fun to watch. We're getting there through nice recent additions like Paxson, Taylor and Sheard. I think players like Skrine and Patterson will be ready show us some good things. A player I find intriguing is Titus Brown. He made some big plays in the limited opportunities he had. In previous preseason games, he showed me a real nose for the ball which spoke well for his first step instincts at LBer. Keep your eye on him this year if his knee has healed properly.
I'm glad we kept the draft volume we have and hopefully we'll land some free agents that can help us soon. 2012 is a very nice opportunity for Heckert to show us we he was the right man for the job. We shall see.
If you have any thoughts you'd like to share on this subject, please feel free to share them. Thanks!
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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I am pretty sure Titus Brown is gone.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I think they are trying to build us the right way but sometimes I wonder if our market size (or Randys budget) limits the team spending to do some of the things Mike and Tom would like. The last decent WR in FA is going to the Pats it appears. The relationship with Josh plays a part, but so does a winning enviroment.
Guys complained about "wasting" picks to move up and get a play maker but it wasn't ONLY about the one guy, it was about trying to change the culture of this team and ignite the fan base. It would also help to attract the kind of FA's we can't seem to land. If you were Brandon Lloyd would you really want to come here ? We STILL have no playmakers at the 3 key positions on offense and I see no way to fix that at the pace we are going any time soon.
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Can't do much in free agency w/ a fresh young coach that no one knows about on a losing team.
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So ..... what's your conclusion? You asked if we have the right personnel man in charge ..... so do we? This is Heckert's 3rd off-season. On this year's team he has both players he inherited, and players he acquired. The players he inherited include: DB: Ray Ventrone LB: DQ Jackson and Kaluka Maiava (It appears that Titus Brown was not tendered) DL: Marcus Benard, Ahtyba Rubin, and Brian Schaefering K: Phil Dawson OL: Joe Thomas and Alex Mack TE: Evan Moore WR: Josh Cribbs and Mohamed Massaquoi So he has completely remade the defensive backfield since he arrived. At LB, 2 of the top 4 players were already here when he arrived, and 2 were added by him. The DL features 1 starter and 2 backups from before his reign as GM. On offense, he inherited 2 OL (our 2 best, by far) 2 WR, and a TE.We can argue about the WR position and whether or not every single WR we have sucks, or whether they get any help at all from the QB spot, but that's a different argument. Via the draft, in 2 years Heckert added: 2010: DB: Joe Haden. Looks like a really good player. DB TJ Ward: Hurt a lot, but seemed to make progress last year when healthy. RB: Montario Hardesty: Um ... yeah. QB: Colt McCoy: Um yeah. OL Shawn Lauvoa: Showed signs of being a force at G in his 2nd year. Had growing pains. DB Larry Assante: Gone .... hardly knew him. WR Carlton Mitchell: Here, but hardly know him. If only he was as big as the myth of Carlton Mitchell .. DL Clifton Geathers: History before the season. So we have 4 players out of this draft who are starting ..... with varying degrees of success .... and a pair of backups. 1 of those backups has never been healthy enough to show anything on the field. Haden looks like a good one. Ward could be if he could stay healthy. Lauvoa appears to be coming on. McCoy is a huge question mark. This draft had 5 picks in the 1st 3 rounds. On a team desperate for talent, I don't know if I am real happy with those results. 2011: DL Phil Taylor: Looked good as a rookie DL Jabaal Sheard: Looked great as a rookie. A real nice find. WR Greg Little: Showed signs of being at least adecent WR. Has nice size for the position. TE Jordan Cameron: Meh. Had a lot of guys in front of him, but looked slow and sluggish when he finally got a chance to play. FB Owen Marecic: Meh. I didn't really see much out of him. Hopefully he learns to catch better this year. DB Buster Skrine: He has the attitude for the position, and the speed. Looked good in limited duty. OL Jason Pinkston: Nice find for the OL. Forced into action as a rookie at LG and forced Steinbach off the team with his play. I look forward to year 2. I think that he's going to be a good one, Really good. DB Eric Hagg: Meh. He played some late in the season. He was a body at S. This looks like a strong draft. Taylor, Sheard, Little, and Pinkston all took advantage of starting opportunities and had solid rookie years. Skrine did a nice job in limited duty, and on special teams. He may work his way into a bigger role. Cameron didn't get a lot of chances, but looked slow and awkward when he played. He was touted as an excellent athlete. I was disappointed because they didn't show on the field. Until he caught a 15 yard pass in game 16 against the Steelers, his yards/catch was somewhere around 4.  Not impressive. His blocking wasn't exactly blowing people away either. Marecic didn't impress either. He dropped passes, didn't run down a lateral that could have easily gone the other way, and in general didn't show a lot of awareness on the field. For a guy drafted because "he's pure football player", he really appeared to struggle in finding himself on the football field. Hagg was hurt much of the year, and looked like a 7th rounder who had been hurt much of the year. maybe he'll surprise in 2012 ..... but 2011 was unimpressive to say the least. That may sound negative, but like I said, overall I really, really like the 2011 draft. I wasn't crazy about the Little pick, but he appears to be working hard at his craft. Practically rebuilding a DL in one draft is impressive. Pinkston really puts this draft over the top. So .... 2 drafts net us 8 starters. We have 5 players starting who were inherited. We traded for guys like Gocong, Brown, Greco, Wallace and Young. Brown was helpful, Gocong might be something, and Greco, Wallace and Young are backups. (or, in Young's case, should be) Free agents signed include Fujita, Watson, Brandon Jackson, Dimitri Patterson, and this year's "haul" of Rucker and Parker. Fujita is OK, (but not much more than that) but he's also been Mr IR. Watson was a great signing. He has been very productive. Patterson was very useful in Nickel and Dime packages. Jackson, obviously, was hurt. I'm not a fan of the moves we made this year. However, not counting this year, we signed as free agents, or traded for 9 players. Gocong, Brown, Watson, and Fujita start. The rest are either backups, or injured. That's 4 starters there. So, we have 8 starters from the draft, 5 from previous regimes, and 4 from free agency. That's 17 of 22 starters on offense/defense. Obviously we have no RT right now. We also have no clue who our starting RB will be. and Rucker will take the DE spot opposite Sheard. I left Marecic off of the starters list, because he really doesn't ..... but I guess he might be considered the starter. So that's your starting 22 as of right now. I think that the team did fairly well in free agency, but could have done a little more and upgraded a little quicker. We lost a lot of guys with the changeover from 3-4 to 4-3, and I'm sure that entered into Heckert's mind as he loves draft picks, even supplemental ones. While I understand that he wants to build through the draft, and believes in that very strongly, I think that we could have added a few more guys last year during free agency orgy 2011 when tons of 4 and 5 year guys who would have been RFA fir the market as UFA. The fact that we never really pursued many guys in a market like that was rather disturbing. No I don't have names, but it seemed like every team had between 2-5 players who hit UFA who were previously RFA. I think that we could have found some help there. That's my one big disappointment with him. This is the official list of free agents from last year, in case anyone is interested. http://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/07-25-11-free-agency1.pdfOverall, I guess I would give him a solid B so far. He's been effective in acquiring personnel, though I don;t agree with all of his decisions, and I wish that he would have been more aggressive last year. He has a lot of drafted guys starting, but a couple would not start on good teams. He's been effective trading for players, but you don't want to have to trade for everything. He has hardly rippled in free agency, let along splashed. he inherited a tough job, and I think that he's dona decent job overall. My major disappointment, obviously, is the inability to land a franchise quality QB. I think that holds this team back more than any other failing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
So ..... what's your conclusion?
You asked if we have the right personnel man in charge ..... so do we?
This is Heckert's 3rd off-season. On this year's team he has both players he inherited, and players he acquired.
Overall, I guess I would give him a solid B so far. He's been effective in acquiring personnel, though I don;t agree with all of his decisions, and I wish that he would have been more aggressive last year. He has a lot of drafted guys starting, but a couple would not start on good teams. He's been effective trading for players, but you don't want to have to trade for everything. He has hardly rippled in free agency, let along splashed. he inherited a tough job, and I think that he's dona decent job overall. My major disappointment, obviously, is the inability to land a franchise quality QB. I think that holds this team back more than any other failing.
 Great job with that Ytown! Thanks! That is exactly what I wanted from this thread. I want to hear from passionate fans like yourself.
To answer your question - I'm confident we have the right guy in Tom Heckert. I like him. I'm excited about the opportunity he has this year. I've seen Heckert draft some really good WRs for Philly's West Coast passing game (Maclin and Jackson) so I have some confidence he can do the same for us. I like what he has done with our defense. Offensive players like Little, Pinkston and Lauvao are a work in progress where it's still too early to tell. Little should improve with experience and as soon as we upgrade MoMass on the opposite side of formation. McCoy is a work in progress too. I actually think he can become a really good QB here; but I don't want to turn this into a QB debate/thread. That's just my opinion though.
I'm looking forward to seeing what this team looks like on paper after the draft and free agency. It'll be a good sign if I can see reliable backups all throughout the roster. I'm not sure if we have enough draft picks to complete that just yet. Having said that, Heckert can make considerable progress in the next 2 months.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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I think they are trying to build us the right way but sometimes I wonder if our market size (or Randys budget) limits the team spending to do some of the things Mike and Tom would like. The last decent WR in FA is going to the Pats it appears. The relationship with Josh plays a part, but so does a winning enviroment.
Guys complained about "wasting" picks to move up and get a play maker but it wasn't ONLY about the one guy, it was about trying to change the culture of this team and ignite the fan base. It would also help to attract the kind of FA's we can't seem to land. If you were Brandon Lloyd would you really want to come here ? We STILL have no playmakers at the 3 key positions on offense and I see no way to fix that at the pace we are going any time soon.
Thanks for the reply. Keep in mind, Brandon Lloyd went to play for St Louis in 2011 and they were scheduled to draft ahead of us in 2012. Not only that, Lloyd received his career best receiving numbers when Kyle Orton was his QB. That says if the price is right - he'll play for any QB and be glad to do so.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Is the talent on our roster now better or worse than it was before Heckert was hired?
I'd say there is no doubt that the roster is better now.
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Better..? Yea, but it would have been hard to have been worse. He's done a decent job but Cinci doesn't even have a decent scouting department and we are looking UP to them.
We make fun of them and other teams but we have a long way to go just to be mentioned in the same breath talent wise. I honestly think most of the posters on this board (except Toad) , could have improved this team as well as Tom has in the last two years.
How do the Steelers identify a Mike Wallace in a 3rd round and we trade up for a Hardesty ? It aint' all peaches and cream from this front office just yet..
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Keep in mind, Brandon Lloyd went to play for St Louis in 2011 and they were scheduled to draft ahead of us in 2012. Not only that, Lloyd received his career best receiving numbers when Kyle Orton was his QB. That says if the price is right - he'll play for any QB and be glad to do so.
Lloyd was traded to the Rams.
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Keep in mind, Brandon Lloyd went to play for St Louis in 2011 and they were scheduled to draft ahead of us in 2012. Not only that, Lloyd received his career best receiving numbers when Kyle Orton was his QB. That says if the price is right - he'll play for any QB and be glad to do so.
Lloyd was traded to the Rams.
True but where does that prove to me he will refuse to team up with a QB like Colt McCoy? He was excited to join St Louis after he enjoyed a career best season teaming up with Kyle Orton.
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Better..? Yea, but it would have been hard to have been worse. He's done a decent job but Cinci doesn't even have a decent scouting department and we are looking UP to them.
We make fun of them and other teams but we have a long way to go just to be mentioned in the same breath talent wise. I honestly think most of the posters on this board (except Toad) , could have improved this team as well as Tom has in the last two years.
How do the Steelers identify a Mike Wallace in a 3rd round and we trade up for a Hardesty ? It aint' all peaches and cream from this front office just yet..
Fair enough...but Heckert's only beginning his 3rd year here.
He's upgraded the roster and made some good draft decisions and took a few draft flyers.
I don't think teams like the Steelers are necessarily better at finding 3rd Rd talent...they are simply a more, all-around talented team. They can plug in mid-round guys who are surrounded by solid-to-good-to-exceptional talent and those mid-round guys can grow.
We draft a receiver in the 2nd...who did not play football the year before...who has been more of a RB than a WR...and he's the best WR on the team.
Of Holmgren, Heckert, and Shurmur...Heckert is probably my favorite.
I'm hoping Heckert has another draft like last year.
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I think Heckert has done a pretty good job in the draft.
My gage has always been, to evaluate the Browns selection against my pick at the time, which is a more honest way to look at it.
I would have done far better than Savage or Davis, Heckert, we are in the range of each other.....
Not trying to blow smoke, but my frustration with the Browns, led me to try and put some meat behind my statement. It is easy to do a post mortum, and look back a couple of years later.....
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Best Way to Tell if You Have the Right Personnel Man in Charge?
win
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Best Way to Tell if You Have the Right Personnel Man in Charge?
win
That's the bottom line. Win.
We are now at the point all of the brilliance of Heck should start to come through.
Unless of course we don't have a coach who can bring out the talent.
This year will tell us much. If we win 6-7 games, something is going to have to change. We are at the point where a few more wins can't be viewed as progress we can live with.
JMO
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Quote:
Best Way to Tell if You Have the Right Personnel Man in Charge?
win
That's the bottom line. Win.
We are now at the point all of the brilliance of Heck should start to come through.
Unless of course we don't have a coach who can bring out the talent.
This year will tell us much. If we win 6-7 games, something is going to have to change. We are at the point where a few more wins can't be viewed as progress we can live with.
JMO
Very true Ballpeen.
You can always tell the teams that consistently draft well year after year after year. When they lose a starter or 2, they can still win games. When we lost Pashos, we were back dealing St Clair 1 year and cut players like Hicks and Kissing Cousins the next year. Sometimes we look at a lineup on paper before the season and we project improvement. However, this is the Cleveland Browns so we've lost guys like Jamir Miller, Sean Jones, and LeCharles Bentley before training camps have even concluded. Inevitably someone always told me "all teams have injuries Flugel." True, but all teams haven't drafted as crappy as this franchise for so many years in succession to where it hurts them like it does Cleveland. Enormous difference imo.
I have been saying this off season is a nice opportunity for Heckert to show us what he's all about. I say that because we have gaping holes all over the roster while depth is running thin in too many spots. It seems like we can draft virtually any position and call it a need.
I also don't buy those arguements that a Brandon Lloyd type won't play for a QB like Colt McCoy. Seems to me, when Denver decided to put their first round QB on the field - they took away Lloyd's most generous QB of his career. Then came the trade talk to a team that was competing diligently for the first overall pick. I know Lloyd got signed by New England; but I'm an old school type that thinks everyone has a yes price tag for the right amount of green $. Look at the knuckleheads we've overpaid in free agency that didn't help us a lick. I heard Shaun Rogers was dunking basketballs before we signed him. In Cleveland he was the face of Dunkin Donuts and trust me when I say that's all he was dunkin.
I don't know whether to get frustrated about our current free agency signings or feel like we've learned from all those overpaid Divas for the game day exchange values of a Donte Stallworth,
Phil Savage could sell ice to eskimoes with his promises he was here to better our draft and not overpay stiffs in free agency. He traded away day 1 of the 2008 and when landed 1 keeper in that entire draft. Even worse, we only had 4 draft picks scheduled for our 2009 draft that didn't have an experienced NFL GM in the house to plan for. While Savage was doing all of that, he was getting his Head Coach dlinemen out of scheme in free agency trade. Shaun Smith, Shaun Rogers and Corey Williams were all upfield (1 gap types) that came here from 4 man fronts. Robaire Smith came here from a 4 man line in TN but at least he played in the 3 man front in Houston. His problem was he was 33 so in spite of looking good for his age - he was injured more than healthy here. Anyway, RAC wanted double occupancy 2 gap types so there was an immediate disconnect between the Head Coach and GM. Ted Washington would have been a nice signing before he had grandchildren. Therefore I hope Heckert walks the fine line between understanding where Savage had us and getting scheme appropriate players where better days aren't in the rear view mirror.
Winning is the ultimate goal. And here is how I can tell if we're ready to do that.
Do we look good enough on paper to where we can handle a few injuries?
Does our QB have enough favorable matchups to win consistently?
Can our defense sharpen the right edge, get to the QB more often and produce more turnovers?
Can our defense stout up against the run better?
I think he has enough resources, experience and opportunity to answer every one of my questions above. He gave Philly guys like McCoy, Maclin and Jackson so I'm confident he can do that here. Meanwhile Phil Savage is over there in Philly as a part of the scouting dept that provided the research leading to the wonderful decision of trading away 3 draft picks to move up and take Michigan's Brandon Graham 2 years ago. Since I firmly understand I'm just a football fan that can't quit my day job for my football opinion, I have no problem saying I'm confident Heckert is the right man for the job.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/18/12 09:20 AM.
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Quote:
This year will tell us much. If we win 6-7 games, something is going to have to change. We are at the point where a few more wins can't be viewed as progress we can live with.
Out of curiosity, why do you always put so many spaces between your paragraphs?
Back to your post ....I don't think we will win more than 6 games this year unless McCoy pulls a Brees. I think people better start realizing this. It's hard to win when 6 of your 16 games are against the Steelers, Ravens, Bengals....and you don't have a QB.
We could have an amazing draft this year, and it won't really change anything. But I think we will be able to tell that the pieces are being built on the rest of the team. We would be foolish to chase Heckert out of town, IMO. It is extremely hard to find that franchise guy. There is a lot of luck involved. We will just have to bide our time.
Fortunately for me and unfortunately for you, I'm not older than dirt.  
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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You bring up Brandon LLoyd ...... and what has he done in his career? He's had one great year, and a bunch of decent to poor years.
His career path resembles Braylon Edwards ... except that he's been hurt a lot. He's had exactly 1 good (great, actually) year in his career ...... and a bunch of years where he was "just a guy".
He has had a 9 year career, and had almost 4800 yards. 1448 came in one year, along with 11 of his 31 career TDs.
When he was traded to the Rams last year, how much did he improve their passing attack? If a receiver like him would help a team like ours, then he should have also helped a team like the Rams. How much did he add to their passing attack?
Considering that he was in St Louis for 12 games, and they passed for under 200 yards in 8 of those games, (and a 9th was exactly at 200 yards) I'd say that the answer is "not much".
Maybe we could have gone all in on a WR like Lloyd .... but would he have changed things much here? Would he have been the difference between a so-so offense and a good offense? The Rams had other guys who performed almost as well as he did ..... and they were guys no one ever heard of before.
The Rams traded for Lloyd because they needed help at WR when they lost their starters to injury. He was their leading receiver. He had 51/683 and 13.4 per catch.
2 other guys that no one ever heard of before, Brandon Gibson and Denario Alexander went for 36/431 12 yards/catch and 26/431 for 16.6 yards/catch.
Was Lloyd a difference maker? I don't see it if he was.
Would he have made a difference here? Probably not. His best bet is doing exactly what he did do .... and go find a great QB to play alongside. He'll probably have a great year next year ...... I would guess that he might even have the 2nd best year of his career. (I don't see him breaking 1448 at his age)
So ..... I don't know if a Lloyd is even a guy we should pursue. (if he would come here)
Now let's say that a guy like Larry Fitzgerald, or Roddy White, or Dwayne Bowe became a free agent. What do you think their criteria for a new team would be? I bet the first 2 things those guys would look for would be a winning team, and a great QB. Would we even be remotely competitive for those guys? Would they even look at our team?
I don't think they would. Get the QB right and suddenly we'll have receivers.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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last year I thought the Browns not showing intrest in Brandon Lloyd was a lack of due diligence on their part.
the Broncos were asking for a 5th RD pick or something like that.
Brandon Lloyd does something that Browns WR's don't do. Catch the football.
Lloyd catches anything close to him.
Browns WR's do a poor job of bringing the ball in and holding it. None of the Browns WR's have strong hands.
they lack field awareness..how down know how to get the feet down in bounds.
I wouldn't care what Lloyd did as Niner,Bear etc..its about the here and now.
the Browns don't hold on to the football and Lloyd does.
Lloyd can stretch defenses,the Browns WR's don't.
as far as Lloyd's career,he played with some of the worst QB's in the NFL at that time.......
Tim Rattay....Mark Brunell was done washed up. Jason Campbell was a rookie and is journeyman...he managed to hook up with Kyle Orton when Orton had a career year.
The year Lloyd had a monster year,his team used him correctly.
but for the most part he's played in offensive schemes with dumb OC and bad QB's.
watch Lloyd prosper in NE.
but I don't get Holmgrens and Heckerts love affair with the WR's. they keep Robiskie as a starter,but later on don't even think about acquiring Lloyd ..
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j/c
I honestly have no optimism for this upcoming year. Last year we played the NFC West and wound up with the #4 pick. This upcoming year, we have the AFC West and NFC East.
This is the first year where I don't have faith that we'll make the jump to 7-9 wins. I don't feel like we have improved much (Frostee Rucker doesn't inspire me).
I understand we still have the draft to go, but I don't see us getting a guy that will come in and a be a stud in year 1. Most of the prospects take a few years to develop, so IMO we are looking at another top 5 pick, which will at least give us a shot at Berkley or Bray. I don't see Colt as the guy, and as long as you don't have a franchise QB to build around, you're not going anywhere.
I hope I'm wrong, but this team hasn't given me a reason over the last 13 years to think I am.
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It's not really paragraphs....those are simply thoughts, so I segment them....if it bothers you, I'll do it more.  Quote:
Fortunately for me and unfortunately for you, I'm not older than dirt.
Fortunately for me, I have seen the Browns win some titles. Unfortunately for you, not, and the prospects ain't looking so hot.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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You obviously took my razzing you seriously.
No harm meant. Just good natured ribbing.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Amen. Win. Jury is out on those who played. One-season wonders more or less? Remains to be seen. I think Heckert is the best man we have had for the job in some time. And that job is crazy hard. Get us some more. I think we are upgrading and building from a horribly low point. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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This team needs continuity from the top down. I'm tired of switching coaches, GMs, personnel, west coast, 3-4, 4-3 and let's try the wildcat. I understand the argument of not staying the course when you know somebody is wrong for the job, but in this case I am going to give a lot of rope to H & H. Blind faith. I just don't want to change again. The biggest criticism I think is the team's failure to identify a QB. This is fair, but who have the Browns passed on? Many people thought we should have drafted Blaine Gabbert or Jimmy Clausen. I'm glad we didn't. Many thought we should have traded more to get RG3. I remember listening to Bull and Fox and Bull really wanted RG3. A caller said, yeah, but what is your limit of draft picks? He said he would give up 2 first rounders and a second if necessary. The Browns ended up offering up even more than that and what happens? Bull criticizes them and says they should have offered more. Had the trade gone through, everyone would have laughed at the Browns and said they are idiots for giving up so much. The Browns biggest mistake was winning 4 games last year. The ugly wins never felt good anyway. Just think if we could have been selecting Luck right now. Everyone would have thought H & H were the best ever and everyone would be so excited right now. Turns out winning a few ugly ones cost us big. Hammer criticized the Browns for not trying to get Peyton Manning  I am tired of the constant criticism. Let these guys do their jobs without constant second guessing and whining. H & H assembled a good young defense. It will get better. The offense looked like $%^& but what does anybody expect when you have the wrong personnel for the West Coast, you are breaking in rookies all over the place, there was no off season, and the Coach had to deal with as much as he did last year. I expect a big jump in production this year. I'm not sure if Colt is the answer but I would rather stick with him until the answer is found rather than over-paying for the 3 or 4th best option. When things start to turn around - and they will - then free agents will come here. Simple. It's not the weather or the lack of nightlife. The right guys just want to win. Go Browns!
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+1 If you don't have continuity in the front office, you won't have continuity on the field. You won't win if the players aren't a good fit. Let's just let them do their jobs.
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If we hadn't even won 4 games last year, the public would be screaming for H&H heads, and possibly pushed Lerner to make a move, then we'd be starting all over.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Actually you're right. Getting the first pick in the draft would have been good for the team but bad for H & H unless it could be determined they put the team in position to fail on purpose like the Cavs did to get LeBron. Then it would have been tolerated - by some.
After years of losing Detroit finally got it right when they lost enough to get the franchise QB that turned it around for them. They didn't screw it up by winning a few ugly ones. Nobody is better at losing when you need to like Indy.
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Quote:
This team needs continuity from the top down. I'm tired of switching coaches, GMs, personnel, west coast, 3-4, 4-3 and let's try the wildcat. I understand the argument of not staying the course when you know somebody is wrong for the job, but in this case I am going to give a lot of rope to H & H. Blind faith. I just don't want to change again.
The biggest criticism I think is the team's failure to identify a QB. This is fair, but who have the Browns passed on? Many people thought we should have drafted Blaine Gabbert or Jimmy Clausen. I'm glad we didn't. Many thought we should have traded more to get RG3. I remember listening to Bull and Fox and Bull really wanted RG3. A caller said, yeah, but what is your limit of draft picks? He said he would give up 2 first rounders and a second if necessary. The Browns ended up offering up even more than that and what happens? Bull criticizes them and says they should have offered more. Had the trade gone through, everyone would have laughed at the Browns and said they are idiots for giving up so much. The Browns biggest mistake was winning 4 games last year. The ugly wins never felt good anyway. Just think if we could have been selecting Luck right now. Everyone would have thought H & H were the best ever and everyone would be so excited right now. Turns out winning a few ugly ones cost us big.
Hammer criticized the Browns for not trying to get Peyton Manning I am tired of the constant criticism. Let these guys do their jobs without constant second guessing and whining.
H & H assembled a good young defense. It will get better. The offense looked like $%^& but what does anybody expect when you have the wrong personnel for the West Coast, you are breaking in rookies all over the place, there was no off season, and the Coach had to deal with as much as he did last year. I expect a big jump in production this year. I'm not sure if Colt is the answer but I would rather stick with him until the answer is found rather than over-paying for the 3 or 4th best option. When things start to turn around - and they will - then free agents will come here. Simple. It's not the weather or the lack of nightlife. The right guys just want to win.
Go Browns!
Great stuff Chinchilla!
Just to piggyback a little, it's hard to look smart playing gridiron chess with pawns year after year. I don't care about who the king is until he has better attack pieces winning the battles for him.
When a Safety like Polly walks up to the Guard Center gap pre-snap and Lauvao doesn't even touch him, who's thinking clearly about the QB dropping back 5-7 steps and completing a 50 yard pass anyway? And when we were deciding between the lesser evils (Cousins and Hicks) at RT, neither were touching DE Carlos Dunlap enough to warrant consideration of deep passes. Dropped passes were another issue. Team speed on offense seemed to be an issue. Inexperience at both OG spots led to some troubles and timing issues especially ealry on.
On a different note, remember hearing Brian Sipe didn't have the bionic arm Mike Phipps had? Which guy had the ceiling of an MVP player? Did it matter if it was predictable in his first 2 years? Not really. What mattered was the right person believed in him when it was his time to shine and treat our fan base to fond memories we'll never forget. Today, Colt McCoy doesn't have the bionic arm Derek Anderson had. That doesn't mean I miss Derek Anderson any more than my last bout of poison ivy. I don't think it's a stretch to say Colt McCoy can be the same QB Andy Dalton is capable of being if we give him a game changer like AJ Green. Ask Steve Young if he would rather have the guys in Tampa that gave him bust labels or Jerry Rice and Co that punctuated ideal passer ratings with a Lombardi Trophy. It's amazing how much the perception of the passer changed just in the company he went into battle with on Sundays. When he was McCoy's age in Tampa, he wasn't making everyone around him better. Drew Brees played on the worst team in the NFL during his 3rd NFL season which led to using their first overall pick on a QB. His 67 passer rating reflected another QB that wasn't making everyone around him better before Gates and McCardell were added to Tomlinson in the prongs of attack assisting a young QB ready to emerge.
I'm glad we didn't outbid Washington for 1 player. I've seen the following first round picks here land on IR (some more than once): Tim Couch, Courtney Brown, William Green, Kellen Winslow, Braylon Edwards, and Brady Quinn. We've also lost some high priced free agents like LeCharles Bentley, Jamir Miller, Shaun Rogers just to name a few. Keep in mind, trading away day 1 of the 2008 draft led to a volume of 1 keeper when it was all said and done. That didn't do anyone any favors here so what was on deck? A 2009 draft scheduled for 4 draft picks without an experienced NFL GM to orchestrate it. As I mentioned in another thread - Heckert was an important part of some Philly drafts that added players like Jeremy Maclin, DeSean Jackson, LeSean McCoy and Trent Cole. Let's hope he has some of that in store for us.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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Quote:
You bring up Brandon LLoyd ...... and what has he done in his career?
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AlwaysABrownsFan brought him up by asking me: "If you were Brandon Lloyd would you really want to come here ?"
That's where I reminded him Lloyd was more than happy to go collect the best receiving numbers of his career with Kyle Orton at QB. You flash the right cake in front of some of these free agents and you'll see a Brandon Marshall go play in an offense with Chad Henne at QB. Sidney Rice went to go play WR in an offense with Tarvaris Jackson at QB. TO went to play WR in Buffalo when Trent Edwards was there.
To be honest, I haven't seen any free agent WRs looking like they want to go play for Minnesota, Jacksonville or Carolina either. These are all teams with young first round QBs so maybe it's the experience volume of the passer or records of the football team shortening the list of free agent WR candidates. To be honest, Donte Stallworth turned me off so much I'd rather get a guy that wants to prove himself instead someone too content with everything in the rear view mirror. Not that Stallworth ever set the league on fire before or after Cleveland.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/24/12 08:13 PM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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To answer the question it will need to be placed into perspective starting with the draft.... 2010- 1st round: Joe Haden 2nd round: T.J. Ward *2nd round: Monterrible Hardesty 3rd round: *Traded for Monterribly Hardesty* 3rd round: Colt McCoy 3rd round: Shawn Lauvao 4th round: *Traded for Chris Gocong* 5th round: *Traded for Monterribly Hardesty* 5th round: *Traded for Monterribly Hardesty* 5th round: *Traded for Sheldon Brown* 5th round: Larry Asante 6th round: *Traded for Seneca Wallace* 6th round: Carlton Mitchell 7th round: *Traded with DE Corey Williams for 5th rounder used on Monterrible* That's 14 draft picks used in the 2009 draft. Half of them were traded away for a mediocre linebacker that was going to be cut anyways, a locker room cancer of a QB that was going to be cut anyways, an aged cornerback on the downside of his career that IIRC we gave a phat contract extension to and traded for an absolutely garbage, injury prone RB. Further perspective on those draft picks: They came from Braylon Edwards, Corey Williams and Kellen Winslows trades. So looking at the full picture it's Edwards, Williams, Winslow and seven draft picks for Seneca Wallace, Chris Gocong, Sheldon Brown and Monterrible. Getting down into the dirt let's look at the remaining six picks. Haden is a hit, TJ Ward is an often injured Safety that can't cover, the F.O. tried everything they could to show they have no faith in McCoy, Lava-Man is garbage if we're being honest and Asante/Mitchell are no longer on the team. So out of 14 draft picks one really good player out of the deal. 2010- 1st Phil Taylor 2nd: Jabaal Sheard 2nd: Greg Little 3rd: *Traded for Phil Taylor* 4th: Jordan Cameron 4th: Owen Marecic 5th: Buster Skrine 5th: Jason Pinkston 6th: *Traded for 5th used on Pinkston* 6th: *Traded for 5th used on Pinkston* 7th: *Traded for Seneca Wallace* 7th: Eric Hagg 12 draft picks, 4 traded away. Again one for a locker room cancer, one to overpay for a player that isn't a need(Taylor) that LEFT a need unaddressed and three picks for an absolute scrub late round offensive lineman. Looking at the rest of the draft... Taylor is okay, a bit inconsistent and has so far only shown up against backup/scrub caliber guards. He's definitely NOT worth a first and a third rounder and Ahtyba Rubin is now trying to fit as a 350lb under tackle when he is a natural 4-3 nose tackle and was already on the roster. Btw, you can find good UT's outside of the 1st round, just to keep that in mind. Sheard is a stud, no doubt. Definitely a hit and longterm guy. Greg Little? Not so much. Between the fact he's got butterfingers worse than Braylon Edwards and the fact he is a longterm project the most likely ceiling is as a serviceable slot receiver. At the cost of a second round draft pick. Cameron is a bum and the 4th TE on the roster, Marecic is a bum, Skrine is a decent nickle CB, Pinkston is trash and Hagg is pure backup depth. I forgot some of those draft picks before and used to say X amount out of 22 draft picks, turns out it wasn't 22 it was 26 draft picks. Out of 26 draft picks Heckert has drafted exactly TWO high quality longterm starters. I'll toss in Taylor early and be generous. The rest range from mediocrity to trash. Now let's look at the trades since he loves trades so much. Almost as much as Phil Savage. As we can see above in two years Heckert has traded away ELEVEN draft picks. That's MORE than a years worth of draft picks traded for nothing to show for it. Btw out of eleven draft picks we've skipped on trading for: Brandon Marshall(twice), Anquan Boldin and Kerry Rhodes, three under 30 impact players. We did however attempt to trade nearly an entire draft for Sam Bradford and three 1sts and a second for Harrell III, so there's that. Onto free agents and contracts: Hecertainly loves overpaying for Andy Reid's trash. He also seems to not care if a dude rapes women in his spare time(Frostee Rucker) and seems to think Cleveland is a Pittsburgh clone that lacks class. This isn't Philly and this isn't Pittsburgh. I think where I stand is obvious. No, I very much do NOT think we have the right man for the job at all. I don't think we have the right front office or coaching staff period. Fortunately between fudging the Bradford trade, throwing Mangini under the bus, concussiongate, Holmgren snubbing the city to talk Seahawks football in Seattle, the playoff tickets/with us or against us ultimatums, fudging the Harrell III trade, blaming NFL conspiracies on not getting their stupid trade done and Free Agents as well as draft picks stating thy do NOT want to play for this F.O. I think their days are numbered. It'll take a miracle to post a winning season next year. It doesn't appear they'll even be trying. It seems that they've accepted the Lions/Rams/Panthers/Colts have laid the blueprint for getting the franchise QB. You have to tank a season and draft 1st overall. Not that it'll be that hard considering our schedule next year. I doubt Randy signs their praises after securing #1 overall and I doubt the fans and media let them off the hook. Here's to Bill and Chris Polian or Mickey Loomis/Sean Payton(I'll be praying nightly all year the Saints future endeavor them) with Matt Barkley in 2013. 
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Lava-Man is garbage if we're being honest
If we're being honest, then no, he is not terrible. He is league average.
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Again one for a locker room cancer
Who?
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one to overpay for a player that isn't a need(Taylor)
Defensive tackle wasn't a need?
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three picks for an absolute scrub late round offensive lineman.
I think you are in the minority in saying that Pinkston is a scrub.
What do you want? A pro bowler every pick? Not happening. People like you (people who are living in a dream world) drive me insane.
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... Very nice presentation of the drafts ; little harsh on the critique part  ... I expect DJ to come charging in here any moment to defend Heckerts Honor 
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.." (people who are living in a dream world) drive me insane... " ..................................................................... Well then , being a Browns , you shouldn't have fat to go
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Quote:
I think Heckert has done a pretty good job in the draft.
My gage has always been, to evaluate the Browns selection against my pick at the time, which is a more honest way to look at it.
I would have done far better than Savage or Davis, Heckert, we are in the range of each other.....
Not trying to blow smoke, but my frustration with the Browns, led me to try and put some meat behind my statement. It is easy to do a post mortum, and look back a couple of years later.....
I thought you did just fine with that take!
I'll never forget the first time I watched an audio visual of Phil Savage. I thought Heaven above was sending our fanbase the Real Santa Claus. He told me everything I wanted and needed to hear. The most memorable statement for this old man's short term memory (which won't do it justice in paraphrase) was: "I'm here for 1 reason and 1 reason only. That is to improve the draft and not overpay in free agency." Next thing I know he's pretending Gary Baxter is Deion Sanders and Jason Fisk's gas tank wasn't running on fumes. Meanwhile, he traded away day one of the 2008 draft to land 1 keeper while he also left us with only 4 draft picks scheduled for the 2009 draft. Meanwhile, RAC was asking for dline types that were built for 2 gap schemes while Savage was bringing him 1 gap players like Corey Williams, Shaun Smith and Shaun Rogers. The only dlinemen that played in both schemes prior to Cleveland was Robaire Smith at 32 or 33 years of age where 2 of his seasons became injured reserve visits you often see with high mileage players.
That's why I never understood where some people were coming from when they blamed Mangini for such a cumulative effect he walked into. When Savage announced this franchise needed an overhaul - him taking it further backwards was quite a setup for failure for any Head Coach to follow. I have a feeling that is why I never read any other Head Coaching candidates were interested beside Mangini. Mangini didn't get here until 2009 so 10 consecutive years of disappointing draft volumes were resonating and ripening. Understanding 2009 gave us 1 keeper - inheriting only 4 draft picks for a franchise in chaos without an experienced competant GM/VP above wasn't conducive to immediate success in my opinion.
What sucked most about that was you don't hire a Head Coach before 9 months before hiring a GM that might not be compatible with philosophies. I think Randy Lerner deserved more credit for flushing 2 years down the toilet. Some have told me but he's always willing to open his wallet so that's a great owner. Well, in order to beat the Rooneys or Ozzie in Baltimore having another pro franchise on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean distracted his business plan enough to foresee the inevitable repercussions of incompatibility = 2 years. Essentially, we had Rip Van Winkle competing with the other business owners in the AFC North regardless of the wallet generosities.
I totally understand frustration. What I don't understand sometimes is how this can ever be as easy as 1 Head Coach or 1 QB or 1 Coordinator's fault. It is going to take time, which is why I am ecstatic we didn't trade way 4-5 important picks for 1 unproven QB. There's a reason the Washington Redskins fans really miss the previous ownership. Joe Theisman had to begin his career in Canada before entering into the NFL as a punt returner. Marc Rypien wasn't a first round QB; and what was Tampa Bay concluding about Doug Williams? Pretty amazing how well the right front office didn't have people askign what rounds the QBs were drafted in. Since Snyder went to DC they drafted Heath Shuler in round 1 (this one might be old enough to doublecheck if it was Snyder or Cooke), Patrick Ramsey in round 1, signed former first round QB Rex Grossman and drafted Jason Campbell in round 1. So why did they need to trade away 4 picks this year? These first round QBs have been working so well for Daniel Snyder he needed to do it all over again. I still think you need a good front office to equip young QBs with the right surroundings so they can win. Try to remember the difference in Steve Young when he played for Tampa vrs when he played for SF. Night and day.
This is a nice opportunity for Heckert to remind us he was a big part of adding DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, LeSean McCoy and Trent Cole to Philly. Those are pretty good players in some areas of hefty need here.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/25/12 12:08 PM.
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Well said.
And just so you know, it wasn't Snyder that owned the team when Shuler was drafted. He didn't take ownership until 1999. Shuler was drafted in 1994.
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You brought up Lauvao to me in another thread and I don't think I addressed it. The kid is not bright, and he likes to hit people late etc. He plays with a lot of emotion though, and that is a good thing if he can reign it in.
I think the talent is there, but I worry about him being technical enough to take it to the next level.
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Quote:
You brought up Lauvao to me in another thread and I don't think I addressed it. The kid is not bright, and he likes to hit people late etc. He plays with a lot of emotion though, and that is a good thing if he can reign it in.
I think the talent is there, but I worry about him being technical enough to take it to the next level.
I agree in some respects. I actually saw him pulling a few times and doing it rather well. If he can refine his pass-blocking and keeping his emotions caged up and funneled into his game, he might turn into a decent guard. I just don't see it happening.
I'd give him another year (although he might be doing it in a backup role) and if he doesn't measurably improve, look to move him.
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he likes to hit people late etc.
Someone on here went backed and looked at our offenses' play-by-play for the whole season at one point. Lauvao had something like six penalties the whole season. Only one or two were late hits.
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The kid is not bright
Is not bright or doesn't seem bright? A lot of these Hawaiian guys don't come off great in interviews because of the way they talk.
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