Quote: Next up: Chris Palmer - Only 14 wins from a Super Bowl........
Now that right there is funny!!
On the outside looking in, this debate has brought a little humor to my morning. At some point I believe it may even be argued that the sky is not blue! (Althought the actual debate will be about whether or not it's Mangini's fault.)
Oh, it's a rip snortin riot until we have to count how many more points we scored in 2011. Then it gets sad at warped speed.
If we bigger picture this discussion to what Mac did a great job of pointing out - many of our Head Coaches here have inherited the cumulative effect of bad drafting since 1999 along with bad trades and free agent moves. If that promises immediate turn around - sign me up for summer school to learn specifically how. We're basically asking our Head Coaches to be immediate miracle workers considering what they have been inheriting. I've done it too so I'm no better than the next fan with that.
We always wonder why we can't handle injuries like other teams. It's because our roster isn't setup to handle it yet. We not only have to find new starters; but our depth is lacking everywhere but defensive tackle IMO. Paxson give us nice reps in rotation. He was the guy that put Roethlisberger on a pogostick for the last month of 2011. I have another thread about this in how you can tell if you have the right Personnel Guru. It actually focuses on depth concerns for a franchise still overhauling it's starting roster.
These coaches haven't been walking into a Bill Polian setup like Buffalo and Indy had for many years nor is it Pittsburgh. Anyone really think Caldwell or Tomlin takes our 2009 team deep into the playoffs or a Superbowl Sunday?
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/20/1208:18 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
So, Mangini is gone and has been for over a year now...might be time to move on.
The Browns are just entering year 3 of rebuilding the team via the draft. ...2010 was the first year, with Mangini as HC and Heckert as GM ...2011 was the second year, with Shurmur as HC and Heckert as GM ...the 2012 league year started last week with the start of free agency Mar. 13.
The past is history and can't be changed.
Today is March 20, 2012...the future is any time beyond NOW !
Quote: If we bigger picture this discussion to what Mac did a great job of pointing out - many of our Head Coaches here have inherited the cumulative effect of bad drafting since 1999 along with bad trades and free agent moves. If that promises immediate turn around - sign me up for summer school to learn specifically how. We're basically asking our Head Coaches to be immediate miracle workers considering what they have been inheriting. I've done it too so I'm no better than the next fan with that.
flugal...too many Browns fans, here and everywhere are focused on now, this season, winning a super bowl this year...
Many do not understand why the 99 Browns franchise has not succeeded since 1999.
Browns fans want success quickly, not realizing the "quick fixes" rarely succeed in the NFL. Just look at all the quick fix moves that have been attempted here, since 99...how many of those worked?
What the Browns franchise started in Jan. 2010 was a 5 yr program of rebuilding the franchise via the draft. It has been 2 yrs so far, with the team coached by two different HCs and the players running two different offensive and defensive systems.
...not the ideal way to start a rebuilding program and it can be argued that Holmgren screwed up by not replacing Mangini right away, in 2010. Holmgren has to live with that decision... but it did slow the rebuilding program down by a year by not having the coaching staff in place from year one of the process.
Rebuilding via the draft is on track after 2 drafts with the 3rd coming up...
...but in terms of coaching personnel and the offensive and defensive systems Holmgren chose to utilize for the Browns rebuild...they are a year behind the overall rebuilding program.
The defensive progress is ahead of the offense, with an experienced DC in Dick Jauron and the support of the first two drafts which focused on picking defense.
Entering year 3 of the process, look for the Browns to focus the draft on adding offensive talent at positions of need. I look for an improved offense with a year of experience now but it must be remembered, the players added in this draft will be brand new to this WCO.
What the Browns are doing, sticking to a 5 year plan of rebuilding the roster via the draft, has to be one of the most difficult processes for a sports franchise and their fans, to endure.
It is ironic that the city of Cleveland and the sports fans are enduring a similar rebuilding process with the Cavaliers.
As Browns fans, we either recognize the reality of where the Browns are in the 5 yr rebuilding process (which is not yet at the half way point) and support the 5 yr plan...
...OR, we refuse to accept the 5 yr plan...preferring to look for the same quick fix we have sought every year since 1999.
You can mark me down as a supporter of Holmgren's 5 yr plan
Quote: Just so your feelings don't get hurt, I should have said AFC instead of overall. My bad.
For the third time - no skin off my back. My feelings aren't hurt.
I was merely pointing out that you look foolish coming in with a condescending, snarky, know-it-all attitude, telling people that they need to deal in facts and truth, and then spilling out false numbers.
And, again, let's just take your AFC numbers, and forget that you'd attributed them to the NFL. They're still skewed to prove a point that is non-existant. Our 2009 defense finished in the bottom of nearly every single defensive statistical category. Teams ran on us with ease, teams threw on us with ease, teams scored on us with ease. We were pathetic. The high sack number is the result of Rob Ryan's penchant for constantly blitzing. It's not an indicator of success.
I have no problem with you flubbing your numbers - it was the tone you used to deliver them. You were pounding your chest about truth and facts, and were spouting off incorrect stats that were pigeonholed to prove something that simply wasn't true.
And despite all that ... you're still keeping up with it. Again, I don't mind. It's amusing. But it's a poor first impression.
Quote: This leads us right back to the information you want to play docey doe with - who did more with less in NY?
Rex Ryan.
He led his teams to two AFC Championship games.
Quote: While we're at it, how many more games did Cleveland win the first year they got rid of Mangini?
Let's play this one your way...
They were 2nd in the NFL in passing yards allowed, so clearly they're doing fantastic, right? I mean, that's all you have to do to show success, right? Pick out one facet of statistics?
Quote:
I'm going to drive off to work now with an ear to ear grin knowing how many sentences I have just assigned you to nitpick. The further you can detour all eyes away from Cleveland being 3rd in the AFC in team sacks and 5th in the AFC in rushing - the better the job you've done. Thanks for showing me all those cute little high school debate team tricks I missed out on when I was too busy running around in cleats after school.
I've been around these boards a long time, and I've got to say, from a Pure Football standpoint, I don't think I've ever seen a new poster embarrass themselves so badly out of the gate.
I've had my fun on this one, but there's other things to debate outside of Mangini's failed NFL tenure. I look forward to getting a chuckle out of your ineptitude in the future, as I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.
And the 'debate team' thing was priceless, coming from the guy who's clinging to AFC sack numbers to show success.
Wow, your off to a running start making lasting impressions.
Impressions about what? Why are so many of you guys worried about this impression BS? It's talking football. This is like a fraternity hazing, it's actually quite funny and cute at the same time.
Well, it's because when you first enter the front door of a party, if you come blowing in, slap a girl on the ass, punch a dude in the face, and tell the host that you did some rather unChristian-like things to all the females in his family, it's kinda considered uncouth. It's usually a better idea to wade in a little slowly without making a bunch of waves because those first impressions are hard to overcome.
Just sayin'.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Wow, your off to a running start making lasting impressions.
Impressions about what? Why are so many of you guys worried about this impression BS? It's talking football. This is like a fraternity hazing, it's actually quite funny and cute at the same time.
You've come here obviously with an opinion to share...
If you come in acting a certain way, people are usually going to either not take said opinion the way you want it, or just completely ignore it...
And as much as some peopel want to say "It's just a message board, I don't care what anyone else thinks."
The fact that you're here, means you do.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Wow, your off to a running start making lasting impressions.
Impressions about what? Why are so many of you guys worried about this impression BS? It's talking football. This is like a fraternity hazing, it's actually quite funny and cute at the same time.
You've come here obviously with an opinion to share...
If you come in acting a certain way, people are usually going to either not take said opinion the way you want it, or just completely ignore it...
And as much as some peopel want to say "It's just a message board, I don't care what anyone else thinks."
The fact that you're here, means you do.
You are saying the fact that I am on your board means I want your approval? Here I was thinking I wanted to talk some football with some fellow Browns fans.
This is kinda cool, maybe I should just run with this and become one of those troll guys.
Quote: Well, it's because when you first enter the front door of a party, if you come blowing in, slap a girl on the ass, punch a dude in the face, and tell the host that you did some rather unChristian-like things to all the females in his family, it's kinda considered uncouth. It's usually a better idea to wade in a little slowly without making a bunch of waves because those first impressions are hard to overcome.
Wow, your off to a running start making lasting impressions.
Impressions about what? Why are so many of you guys worried about this impression BS? It's talking football. This is like a fraternity hazing, it's actually quite funny and cute at the same time.
You've come here obviously with an opinion to share...
If you come in acting a certain way, people are usually going to either not take said opinion the way you want it, or just completely ignore it...
And as much as some peopel want to say "It's just a message board, I don't care what anyone else thinks."
The fact that you're here, means you do.
You are saying the fact that I am on your board means I want your approval? Here I was thinking I wanted to talk some football with some fellow Browns fans.
This is kinda cool, maybe I should just run with this and become one of those troll guys.
I never said anything about approval. But if you want to talk football, it's easier when most of the people on the board don't ignore you because you're acting like a d-bag...
Or posting with a specific font color that reminds them of church pants.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Keep on doing what you are doing man, you have just as much right to post your thoughts as the "so called experts". I happen to agree with a lot of what you said.
Quote: Keep on doing what you are doing man, you have just as much right to post your thoughts as the "so called experts". I happen to agree with a lot of what you said.
You are saying the fact that I am on your board means I want your approval? Here I was thinking I wanted to talk some football with some fellow Browns fans.
There's nothing wrong with that! I haven't kept as much on here lately but caught some stuff and you seem to post well written and thought out responses or opinions. I happen to think that the newbie's Ottomatic Flugal and Riffer add good conversation to the Board, whether you agree with them or not. Not sure it is so much a hazing as it is frustrated Fans but we all want the same thing just have differing opinions on getting there. This board is filled with good people some are just more ornery than others. We can just consider you taking my spot when I leave in a month!
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
I have no problem with "new" guys posting stuff on here. The more the merrier.
But both the new guys you mentioned started out like they were Donald Trump and the rest of us were living in cardboard boxes. If I want to be talked down to, I'll look up a teenager.....
Not the ideal way to win friends and influence people.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
just because theyre new HERE doesn't mean theyre new to the interwebs. posting isn't really about making friends and influencing people as much as it is about sharing ideas and disseminating information.
this happens 2 ways...were they being condescending or are many of you just overly sensitive? context is difficult to convey thru type, so perhaps you read it wrong.
having posted with these 2 folks over many years, im finding the charges laughable at best and misguided at worst. its kinda funny really.....but lets just say that you shouldn't work under the presumption that people who visit message boards have nothing more than casual fan level knowledge.
So if the guy is, let's say, a coach then he gets to talk to me like I'm 8 years old?
Sorry, I don't buy it and never have.
I always assume that any poster has a certain amount of knowledge or they wouldn't bother posting here. That doesn't preclude them from having a few manners.
Once upon a time there was a poster here that never hesitated to tell you how much he knew. It ended up he was a legend only in his own mind. I always remember that guy when someone starts out by telling me how much they know.
As I said in the beginning, the more the merrier.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
Yep, I also remember how unpopular I was when I called the guy out for BS. Later the truth was revealed, but I was told in no uncertain terms by several board members how that guy WAS IN THE KNOW.
The real funny thing is that this thread is this long.
Quote: just because theyre new HERE doesn't mean theyre new to the interwebs. posting isn't really about making friends and influencing people as much as it is about sharing ideas and disseminating information.
this happens 2 ways...were they being condescending or are many of you just overly sensitive? context is difficult to convey thru type, so perhaps you read it wrong.
having posted with these 2 folks over many years, im finding the charges laughable at best and misguided at worst. its kinda funny really.....but lets just say that you shouldn't work under the presumption that people who visit message boards have nothing more than casual fan level knowledge.
Thanks Choco! Message boards soliciting opinions as well as common interests can invite some entertaining sparring on occasion. However, I see a lot of really good football takes on this board when I have the time to read.
Just to clarify, the only 2 people I gave sarcastic replies to were the 2 people informing me I had no idea of what I was talking about. Django told me in my very first post on this board it was going to be hard to respect any of my future football opinions. When I saw his first reply in this thread, I took opportunity to bust his chops back. I noticed he was on the convenient side of a debate to where his first reply didn't warrant any lectures about condascending tones. The author of this thread carefully worded his subject heading "enter at own sanity."
I honestly didn't even know PDR when I defended Mangini and Riffer's post. The way he introduced himself to me after every single sentence I typed wasn't exactly inviting high fives or cyber hugs from me. I didn't lose any sleep over it. He just wanted to give me more credit than I deserved for setting the tone that was already clearly established before I joined this conversation. I'm a golden rule kind of guy as exemplified in other threads with me complimenting several passionate Cleveland Browns fans in here sticking to football with entertaining posts/replies. Like anyone else, I'm here to talk football and share a common bond of the Cleveland Browns with others. I don't show up with hopes of making enemies, insulting others or pretending I have football knowledge misplaced in Corporate America. Having said that, I'm 50% Irish, 25% German and 25% Blowhard which means I will swing first and ask questions later if I think someone is going out of their way to ask me to dance in a Jerry Springer episode.
Somehow we got detoured from me asking something along the line of how can Mangini be capable of winning 9 and 10 games in NY? In NY, Mangini had an experienced GM helping him with draft picks like D'Brick Ferguson, David Harris, Darrelle Revis, Nick Mangold, and Dustin Keller. In Cleveland, he was hired without the criteria and philosophy of an NFL VP/GM that would later represent the very reasons Mangini got his walking papers. In the process, Mangini inherited 1 keeper from the 2008 draft, plus only 4 picks scheduled for the 2009 draft, and a massively overpaid veteran defensive line out of scheme. Most 2008 games were over and non-competitive before the 2nd quarter started. A realistic goal in 2009 wasn't to go from a crawl to winning a sprint. It was to take whatever we had, persevere through injuries, and keep most games competitive enough for a chance to win them late in the 4th quarter. Bigger picture, it means we had to understand where we had been as well as where were ready to head at the the time in order to know what was realistic and what was not. If one thought we should have been setting our plans to win the Superbowl in 2009 instead of turning the corner the way we did late in the year - then they could only be massively disappointed. Just remember he didn't hire himself and it put Holmgren in an awkward position so we basically lost 2 years in this process. It looks to me like all the anger and frustration has completely and conveniently leapfrogged our owner. Maybe if he gave up his other pro team on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean would have been more on top of this as early as he needed to be in my opinion.
As it shook out, we never really found the lesser of 2 evils at QB so closing the season with 4 straight wins in 2009 showed me the improvement I wanted to see on game day. That's why I felt it was important to bring up where we ranked at sacking the QB and running the football. I made the mistake of relying on memory so I used my rankings out of 32 teams. What doesn't change is the message that 3rd in the conference at sacking a QB or 5th in the conference at running the ball into 11 men in the box was beginning to have an impact on time of possession and winning ball games once this team got some degree of continuity and chemistry off the ground.
2010 had a disappointing injury volume inclusive of: Rogers, Jackson, Zastudil, Fujita, Coleman, Mosely, Hardesty, Yates, Pashos (leaving us stuck with St Clair all over again), Womack, and 3 different QBs in walking boots. I kept an open mind enough to understand this wasn't going to overcome all the successive bad drafting and free agent moves since 1999.
Furthermore, I don't agree Rex Ryan improved the NY Jets more than Mangini did 3 years into Project Upgrade there. Mangini inherited a 4-12 football team there while Ryan inherited a 9-7 team. Ryan needed the last 2 opponents resting starters for playoffs ahead in order to finish 9-7. Then, in year #3 they were 8-8. Now, Ryan wants to run our 2009 Kent State offense with Tim Tebow as his Josh Cribbs taking snaps from Center. The problem with that? His receivers are Burress, Holmes and Keller while Cleveland's were Robiskie, MoMass and Robert Royal. I think there's an enormous difference in grid-iron chess pieces to attack with.
This nightmare of inheriting chaos and turnover of wasn't exclusive to Mangini. I've always felt our biggest nightmare was with the brass responsible for getting us the gridiron chess pieces. I'm hoping Heckert can bring us the Jeremy Maclin, DeSean Jackson, Trent Cole and LeSean McCoy types. Am I wishful thinking that he can do the same here? Maybe; but for some strange reason I feel confident he has the goods to deliver. There's a lot of fans I consider to be very smart about their team worried about him. And when he sounds like Rain Main in front of a microphone, who am I try to correct them until he does deliver? And when that happens, it won't be necessary to argue on his behalf anyway.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/24/1212:21 PM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
So, Mangini is gone and has been for over a year now...might be time to move on.
The Browns are just entering year 3 of rebuilding the team via the draft. ...2010 was the first year, with Mangini as HC and Heckert as GM ...2011 was the second year, with Shurmur as HC and Heckert as GM ...the 2012 league year started last week with the start of free agency Mar. 13.
The past is history and can't be changed.
Today is March 20, 2012...the future is any time beyond NOW !
Quote: If we bigger picture this discussion to what Mac did a great job of pointing out - many of our Head Coaches here have inherited the cumulative effect of bad drafting since 1999 along with bad trades and free agent moves. If that promises immediate turn around - sign me up for summer school to learn specifically how. We're basically asking our Head Coaches to be immediate miracle workers considering what they have been inheriting. I've done it too so I'm no better than the next fan with that.
flugal...too many Browns fans, here and everywhere are focused on now, this season, winning a super bowl this year...
Many do not understand why the 99 Browns franchise has not succeeded since 1999.
Browns fans want success quickly, not realizing the "quick fixes" rarely succeed in the NFL. Just look at all the quick fix moves that have been attempted here, since 99...how many of those worked?
What the Browns franchise started in Jan. 2010 was a 5 yr program of rebuilding the franchise via the draft. It has been 2 yrs so far, with the team coached by two different HCs and the players running two different offensive and defensive systems.
...not the ideal way to start a rebuilding program and it can be argued that Holmgren screwed up by not replacing Mangini right away, in 2010. Holmgren has to live with that decision... but it did slow the rebuilding program down by a year by not having the coaching staff in place from year one of the process.
Rebuilding via the draft is on track after 2 drafts with the 3rd coming up...
...but in terms of coaching personnel and the offensive and defensive systems Holmgren chose to utilize for the Browns rebuild...they are a year behind the overall rebuilding program.
The defensive progress is ahead of the offense, with an experienced DC in Dick Jauron and the support of the first two drafts which focused on picking defense.
Entering year 3 of the process, look for the Browns to focus the draft on adding offensive talent at positions of need. I look for an improved offense with a year of experience now but it must be remembered, the players added in this draft will be brand new to this WCO.
What the Browns are doing, sticking to a 5 year plan of rebuilding the roster via the draft, has to be one of the most difficult processes for a sports franchise and their fans, to endure.
It is ironic that the city of Cleveland and the sports fans are enduring a similar rebuilding process with the Cavaliers.
As Browns fans, we either recognize the reality of where the Browns are in the 5 yr rebuilding process (which is not yet at the half way point) and support the 5 yr plan...
...OR, we refuse to accept the 5 yr plan...preferring to look for the same quick fix we have sought every year since 1999.
You can mark me down as a supporter of Holmgren's 5 yr plan
Very well said Mac. Thank you!
I've been just as guilty as the next fan since 1999 at times for getting impatient and blaming the wrong person.
I think human nature wants this to have always been as easy as changing just 1 OC or changing just 1 QB or changing just 1 Head Coach. Unfortunately, protecting the King in a game of chess requires more than just a bunch of pawns to do so. If we change the face of the king but we still only play chess with pawns, does it really matter if Carthon or Davidson is calling the plays?
The one thing that has not changed dramatically since 99 in my opinion is how well we have drafted in a division that drafts extremely well. Every time I saw highlights of the Cincy Bengals in 2012, I was watching a premiere athlete looking like a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow Dalton threw. Remember that one pass he hung up like a kite where AJ Green ran from 1 side of the field to the other side to outleap our corner for the ball? I see it like AJ Green is the game changer and Andy Dalton is the beneficiary.
I hope we have the fate where a talented WR with game breaking speed can lineup on the opposite side of formation to Greg Little to command the respect that removes a Safety from the box. In my opinion, that will open up space underneath for the slant routes. We threw so many slant patterns into the traffic jams of 9 men in the box. I often found myself frustrated with Greg Little for the drops; but I wasn't the one getting drilled by a Patrick Willis and Donte Whitner sandwich. Therefore it was easy for me to say "catch the ball!"
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
Quote: Remember that one pass he hung up like a kite where AJ Green ran from 1 side of the field to the other side to outleap our corner for the ball?
When Dalton airmailed that pass, the first thing I thought was "PICK!" ... 9 times out of 10, that ball is caught by the safety and goes back the other way. As it turned out, Green went about 12 feet in the air and plucked it. My first reaction was disbelief, and my second was disgust that none of our DB's were even close enough to flip him and at least make there be a price for making that catch, or maybe even jar the ball out. It was a game-changing play. We need a guy that can do that.
You are saying the fact that I am on your board means I want your approval? Here I was thinking I wanted to talk some football with some fellow Browns fans.
There's nothing wrong with that! I haven't kept as much on here lately but caught some stuff and you seem to post well written and thought out responses or opinions. I happen to think that the newbie's Ottomatic Flugal and Riffer add good conversation to the Board, whether you agree with them or not. Not sure it is so much a hazing as it is frustrated Fans but we all want the same thing just have differing opinions on getting there. This board is filled with good people some are just more ornery than others. We can just consider you taking my spot when I leave in a month!
I agree. I know them both, and both are great guys.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I'm one of those avid readers but I never post. I just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed reading Riff's and Flugel's football posts. I think they are pretty insightful. Thanks guys.
Wow, your off to a running start making lasting impressions.
Impressions about what? Why are so many of you guys worried about this impression BS? It's talking football. This is like a fraternity hazing, it's actually quite funny and cute at the same time.
You've come here obviously with an opinion to share...
If you come in acting a certain way, people are usually going to either not take said opinion the way you want it, or just completely ignore it...
And as much as some peopel want to say "It's just a message board, I don't care what anyone else thinks."
The fact that you're here, means you do.
You are saying the fact that I am on your board means I want your approval? Here I was thinking I wanted to talk some football with some fellow Browns fans.
This is kinda cool, maybe I should just run with this and become one of those troll guys.
I never said anything about approval. But if you want to talk football, it's easier when most of the people on the board don't ignore you because you're acting like a d-bag...
Or posting with a specific font color that reminds them of church pants.
Quote: So if the guy is, let's say, a coach then he gets to talk to me like I'm 8 years old?
Sorry, I don't buy it and never have.
I always assume that any poster has a certain amount of knowledge or they wouldn't bother posting here. That doesn't preclude them from having a few manners.
Once upon a time there was a poster here that never hesitated to tell you how much he knew. It ended up he was a legend only in his own mind. I always remember that guy when someone starts out by telling me how much they know.
As I said in the beginning, the more the merrier.
Thanks CrazyOtto, I think we will enjoy talking football together and I look forward to it.
Quote: Remember that one pass he hung up like a kite where AJ Green ran from 1 side of the field to the other side to outleap our corner for the ball?
When Dalton airmailed that pass, the first thing I thought was "PICK!" ... 9 times out of 10, that ball is caught by the safety and goes back the other way. As it turned out, Green went about 12 feet in the air and plucked it. My first reaction was disbelief, and my second was disgust that none of our DB's were even close enough to flip him and at least make there be a price for making that catch, or maybe even jar the ball out. It was a game-changing play. We need a guy that can do that.
Dalton's numbers directly correlate to McCoy's for the most part. If you took away AJ Green alone, the argument can be made his stats would have been less than Colt's.
Quote: The real funny thing is that this thread is this long.
It's no biggie, I wouldn't let it bother you man.
Welcome to the board. Just read this whole thread and agree with some things others not so much on the origional post. As has been said a thousand times, no matter what any of us think of Mangini hes now gone and we, as fans, can only move on. The same with RAC and Davis. Water under the bridge.
I know I was ready to drive the bus taking Pat outta town midseason but as every season I calm down and get excited again about the prospects of what the team can do.
Im really happy with Heckert being here I think hes the right man for the GM pos. I also see the 5 year plan and although very painful as a fan to sit through it must be done. In a couple years people will say the Browns came out of no where to make the playoffs but us fans will know better about when this actually started and the steps we needed to take for that breakthough.
Heres to the Journey
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
Quote: The real funny thing is that this thread is this long.
It's no biggie, I wouldn't let it bother you man.
Welcome to the board. Just read this whole thread and agree with some things others not so much on the origional post. As has been said a thousand times, no matter what any of us think of Mangini hes now gone and we, as fans, can only move on. The same with RAC and Davis. Water under the bridge.
I know I was ready to drive the bus taking Pat outta town midseason but as every season I calm down and get excited again about the prospects of what the team can do.
Im really happy with Heckert being here I think hes the right man for the GM pos. I also see the 5 year plan and although very painful as a fan to sit through it must be done. In a couple years people will say the Browns came out of no where to make the playoffs but us fans will know better about when this actually started and the steps we needed to take for that breakthough.
Heres to the Journey
Thanks Nick. I am not about dwelling on the past and that wasn't really my intent with this thread, it was more just a rambling rant to kind of get my feet wet here. As you can see, some liked it and some were bothered by it, but you will have that when guys have been posting together for years and someone new comes walking into their universe.
Last year was probably the toughest for me as a fan all around. I really started to view this team as an analyst rather than from an emotional standpoint for the first time in my life.
I have heard some good calls on the local talk shows (my Android Radio app) lately where rational fans still get this patient approach by building through the draft and spending thriftily. There are some who have come back down off the cliff from last season and are keeping their expectations on a rational level.
I generally get myself into a positive frame of mind every season and then week one hits where the team finds a way to blow it. I actually think this team will surprise a few folks this season if they manage to stay fairly healthy.
I agree last year was probably the hardest to endure for many reasons but the main reason is I thought we would at go 7-9 I really somehow expected improvement over the previous year. I saw Coaching as a big problem last year and mistakes that now I can look back on and give wiggle room to the first time head coach, no offseason etc where as during the season they are just a bunch of "What was he thinking?" moments.
Your right about the 1st game and that was true the last 2 seasons and it just sets the tone. We played TB and had them on the ropes then mucked it up lost they make playoffs we fall off into oblivion. Cinci last year same thing brain fart on Defense when (it felt to me at least) we were locking that game up gave the game away. Cinci make the PO we slide farther and farther back.
This year I have lesser expectations for the Browns, hate to say it that way but we have a tougher schedule ahead and I just dont see us winning more then 6 games. I'll be looking for less mistakes all around, better play calling for sure and general improvement across the board.
I also expect half this boards worst nightmare to come true and Colt to improve to a competant (sp?) QB.
Major disclaimer- I still think we will be drafting a QB in the 1st round next year no matter what McCoy does.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
Quote: I'm just saying. He said we are drafting a QB in the first round no matter what.
What if a plane carrying all of the QB's in the draft crashes? Do we still draft a QB in the first round?
Lol thats why i put the disclaimer in there because I have said in many other threads I think the Browns are targetting QBs in next years draft. I also said that if some peoples worst nightmare happens and McCoy does decent, not great. Just didnt want some people to storm in here and say "Hey you said they are targetting QB's next year!" I still believe that to be true.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
Quote: Remember that one pass he hung up like a kite where AJ Green ran from 1 side of the field to the other side to outleap our corner for the ball?
When Dalton airmailed that pass, the first thing I thought was "PICK!" ... 9 times out of 10, that ball is caught by the safety and goes back the other way. As it turned out, Green went about 12 feet in the air and plucked it. My first reaction was disbelief,
Well put Dave! That thing floated up there forever.
Every time I was watching highlights of Cincy's passing game, I was looking at WRs making circus catches or doing some amazing things that their young QB could count on.
MoMass didn't exactly provide reliable chemistries for Brady Quinn, Derek Anderson, Jake Delhomme, or Seneca Wallace before Colt McCoy got to play when we think about it. It's way overdue to get bring in a legitimate #1 WR here that we can think of as a game changer or play maker. I think it's important to add people we can look forward to watching when all the other teams in our division prioritized adding this type of receiver.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/25/1207:38 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
You are saying the fact that I am on your board means I want your approval? Here I was thinking I wanted to talk some football with some fellow Browns fans.
There's nothing wrong with that! I haven't kept as much on here lately but caught some stuff and you seem to post well written and thought out responses or opinions. I happen to think that the newbie's Ottomatic Flugal and Riffer add good conversation to the Board, whether you agree with them or not. Not sure it is so much a hazing as it is frustrated Fans but we all want the same thing just have differing opinions on getting there. This board is filled with good people some are just more ornery than others. We can just consider you taking my spot when I leave in a month!
I agree. I know them both, and both are great guys.
Thanks Ballpeen! I really appreciate you and all others that chimed in here to make us feel welcome and worthy of good company in here.
All I can say is I will give anyone a chance that gives me a chance. That doesn't mean I won't make mistakes, overrate my opinion like any other fan or argue when I think someone is unfair about a player or coach. Some topics have polarizing passions about certain players or coaches. If I'm on the other side of those debates I understand it can extend as far as people thinking I'm full of Schlitz. I get that.
Where I draw the line is when the other side tells me I'm here to condascend and make a jerk of myself while they are supposedly acting like St Peter all the while. Just keep it about football and prove to me that Mangini turning 4-12 into 10-6 in NY is less impressive than Rex Ryan inheriting 9-7 to deliver 9-7 (because the last 2 opponents took a knee). When Rex Ryan's 3rd season ending in 8-8 was not vastly superior to Mangini's 3rd season ending in 9-7, do we say I might have a good point or do we go straight to personal accusations? I don't think I'm the only one who missed an opportunity to redirect the tone with "you have a decent point there - but here's what I disagree with." It's really pretty easy to give respect back to those giving it. If I singled anyone out to make them feel like they are 8 years old - just give me the cut and paste and you'll get the apology you totally deserve.
I'm not an enormous Mangini fan, I just wanted to point out he's had the same bad situation here that every other coach inheriting the cumulative effect of bad drafting and free agent disasters since 1999 has had. We're playing gridiron chess with too many pawns and wondering why the new QB or the new coach never seems to work. If you have a head ache, do you want your doctor to say time to open up the skull for invasive surgery or do you want a more accurate diagnosis first? I don't see an end to alternating the scapegoating of the Head Coach with the QB every other season. Meanwhile it shouldn't take us 3 years to see Brian Robiskie doesn't get separation and MoMass continues to run himself into coverages.
Do you know what my favorite thing about a message board is believe it or not? I'm a really stubborn old school fan that loves to receive such a challenge that it causes my to change my opinion about something I never deemed possible. It's happened a lot more than I thought it would over the years. I always remember the person that was able to open my mind enough to see something I wasn't allowing myself to see. That's what I try to do with others on a message board is challenge them to see what I think they might not be allowing themselves to see.
Here's a related true story Ballpeen might really get a kick out of: One of my favorite message board connections started with a guy that called everyone a Couch-fag which meant we were off to a very turbulent start. As we started busting each other's chops, this guy was calling his own wife the "Toothless Hag" and his kids "the brats." Then 1 day I posted I was off to watch training camp; and added I would be happy to share my observations and summaries with the board. Next thing I know, this guy is meeting up with me to watch the training camp only after carefully posting he needed to do so in order to prevent Flugel from going "Queer Eye for the Kentucky Rifle!" He was absolute blast and we became friends that never agreed on Couch. Moral of the story? We both had abrasive book covers that concealed better things inside - at least allegedly. I don't think we ever agreed very much on football topics; but the better news was we never had to. This is somebody that orchestrates the tailgates Ballpeen likes to go to; and has brought a ton of Browns' fans together from all over the country and as far away as England. I never got such a first impression vibe from the guy so the outcome of it all was a very pleasant surprise.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/25/1209:56 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
Quote: I'm not gonna sit here and say that Mo is a TRUE #1 WR.. but the dude can play.. and he and Anderson actually had pretty good chemistry.
Thanks for the highlights! Believe it or not, I once used a similar youtube to point out this guy might do better with a more consistent QB. I've changed my optimism about him since then. He'll still make the occasional flash of promise like the end zone game winning TD reception vrs Miami or the TD he scored vrs Oakland when we tied the game right before allowing the Raiders to take the ensuing kickoff back for a TD.
Unfortunately, I still don't think the guy established any consistent/reliable chemistry with any QBs (not always totally his fault). He had 1 very nice game with Quinn vrs Detroit indoors and his day in the sun with DA was vrs Cincy. He showed occasional flashes with DA on the rare occasions we weren't thinking DA turned into Ricky Ankiel instead of Cinderella after the early midnight.
Where I've seen very little growth in MoMass is how he finishes any route that isn't just a straight ahead sprint or slant. Pay particular attention to how he runs the outs, curls/comebacks or how well he does in a crowd. Some teams use a number system for their patterns like a 7 route, 9 route, 5 route, 3 route, and I just don't think his strengths or losing defenders on the cuts required for those. Unfortunately, I also really think James Harrison's head shot was a turning point for the worse with MoMass. Lucky for him nobody else was running polished routes to where he needed to sit when healthy. The most frustrating thing is how often QBs have expected to adjust one way he goes the other or simply stops altogether.
If we bring in a legit #1 WR here - it should make the other WR/WRs beneficiaries of better matchups and more space. If MoMass continues to be in our plans - I sincerely hope your optimism gets rewarded.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
It's usually a better idea to wade in a little slowly without making a bunch of waves because those first impressions are hard to overcome.
We can just consider you taking my spot when I leave in a month! 
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