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j/c
This is a funny thread. Looks like a couple of new folks came in with either very thin skin or preconceived notions about the board and how they would be treated. Nobody said anything to you all because you are new. If you are looking for a board that is going to take anything you post or dish out without calling you on it, you are not in the right place.
As far as the initial post, I can agree with a good bit of it. Nothing really new about what was posted in it, we have a lot of frustration as a fan base. I've become so apathetic about this team that I can rarely bring myself to even post or argue about them anymore.
I can understand the Hillis release. There is something about that guy that is not right. Just looking in from the outside, I think the guy has some emotional issues. At the very least, he's incredibly immature.
I was happy when Holmgren took over. Now....I don't even see a pinpoint of light at the end of the tunnel.
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Where I draw the line is when the other side tells me I'm here to condascend and make a jerk of myself while they are supposedly acting like St Peter all the while.
I never cast myself as St. Peter. Ask around - I can be pretty condescending myself at times. The difference is, when I do so, I'm very careful to make sure that what I'm saying is factually accurate.
I was merely pointing out that it's a bad look to come in with a holier-than-thou, snarky, condescending tone where you purport to deal in 'facts' and 'truth', and then completely whiff on almost everything you say.
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This is a funny thread. Looks like a couple of new folks came in with either very thin skin or preconceived notions about the board and how they would be treated. Nobody said anything to you all because you are new. If you are looking for a board that is going to take anything you post or dish out without calling you on it, you are not in the right place.
Ahh, more lectures to us newbies, gotta love it. Also nice to see that you can freely speak for the whole board---nah, that doesn't reek of a gang mentality.
And let me say that when guys throw their little snarky comments my way, rest assured just because I am new to this particular board, I won't fail to respond.
Sound good?
Cool
Last edited by Riffer X; 03/25/12 01:23 PM.
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I wouldn't exactly say that you're a 'newbie', late-summer of 2010 is eons ago for some here.
Not being a frequent contributor isn't a crime in my view.
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I wouldn't exactly say that you're a 'newbie', late-summer of 2010 is eons ago for some here.
Not being a frequent contributor isn't a crime in my view.
I have to admit I registered back then to this place after a board split where I used to mod at. I checked this place out because of Ballpeen (who also posted on the other board) and then chose to post on a different board that I also became a mod at. That board has really went to hell basically from management who can't handle a different view from anybody that is not their own. They will slowly be taken over by text style posting kids who have no respect or knowledge of the game or history, especially to other posters and they can't even put a complete sentence together.
Again, just because someone is new to posting at a particular board, doesn't mean they are not on a message board savvy level with many old time posters who have been on the same board for years. Sooo.....the little comments and false claims etc won't be tolerated and will be dealt with head on, not in a manner of a passive new guy who is just hoping for approval. Ain't never gonna happen that way with me.
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QBs make WRs, WRs do not make QBs.
A great WR can help a poor QB, but he'll never turn a poor QB into a great QB. A great QB can deem to find extremely productive to great WRs anywhere, and almost every year to boot.
I like MoMass, and wish we had a QB who could get him the ball like Anderson did. He's not a "run a 3 yard route" WR., so he doesn't get used with this QB. It's a shame.
I didn't go back and do all of the stat checking, but I would bet money that the vast majority of McCoy's passing yards came to TE, RB, and the slot receiver position. I can rarely remember him throwing outside and down the field at all.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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QBs make WRs, WRs do not make QBs.
A great WR can help a poor QB, but he'll never turn a poor QB into a great QB. A great QB can deem to find extremely productive to great WRs anywhere, and almost every year to boot.
I like MoMass, and wish we had a QB who could get him the ball like Anderson did. He's not a "run a 3 yard route" WR., so he doesn't get used with this QB. It's a shame.
I didn't go back and do all of the stat checking, but I would bet money that the vast majority of McCoy's passing yards came to TE, RB, and the slot receiver position. I can rarely remember him throwing outside and down the field at all.
I have observed your posts and it is quite clear to me that you are a very knowledgeable guy around these parts. That being said, here is my opinion on NoMoreMassPlease.
Great kid, good head on shoulders, character driven, bright, works hard (put in time last year prior to Camp Colt working out with some big names), etc. The problem is, the kid doesn't parlay any of his intelligence to the field. His M O since he came out was poor route adjustments to the ball in filight and he has actually managed to get worse. He had Stafford throwing him lasers back then, but he has proven that when the ball is in the air, he generally takes the wrong path toward it.
The kid lacks the instinct required for the position. He is the guy that jumps before the ball gets there, runs past the zone he should settle in giving the QB a smaller window, all that stuff. He will turn a decent throw that he can hand catch into his chest into having his hands fully extended away from his body where a defender can separate him from the ball.
I just want to be done with this kid, I think he is a loser to be honest and we will never get better keeping guys like that around just because they were a second round pick and have good character. I really wanted to like him, but had a breaking point last year. It is imperative we get some receivers in here who know how to run routes, break off hots and generally help our QB instead of hinder him. Hence, time to move on IMO.
Personally, I would try to deal him on draft day to help in some sort of move up farther down in the draft. He won't garner much, but it would be better than cutting him in camp for nothing.
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I have observed your posts and it is quite clear to me that you are a very knowledgeable guy around these parts. That being said, here is my opinion on NoMoreMassPlease.
Great kid, good head on shoulders, character driven, bright, works hard (put in time last year prior to Camp Colt working out with some big names), etc. The problem is, the kid doesn't parlay any of his intelligence to the field. His M O since he came out was poor route adjustments to the ball in filight and he has actually managed to get worse. He had Stafford throwing him lasers back then, but he has proven that when the ball is in the air, he generally takes the wrong path toward it.
The kid lacks the instinct required for the position. He is the guy that jumps before the ball gets there, runs past the zone he should settle in giving the QB a smaller window, all that stuff. He will turn a decent throw that he can hand catch into his chest into having his hands fully extended away from his body where a defender can separate him from the ball.
I just want to be done with this kid, I think he is a loser to be honest and we will never get better keeping guys like that around just because they were a second round pick and have good character. I really wanted to like him, but had a breaking point last year. It is imperative we get some receivers in here who know how to run routes, break off hots and generally help our QB instead of hinder him. Hence, time to move on IMO.
Personally, I would try to deal him on draft day to help in some sort of move up farther down in the draft. He won't garner much, but it would be better than cutting him in camp for nothing.
Honestly, there isn't a word of this that I disagree with. I would only add that I would look to package him with a mid-round pick to move up into an earlier round.
I could see moving up in the 4th, packaging him with the pick we got from Atlanta, and moving up in the 4th or packaging him with our 5th and moving up into the bottom quarter of the 4th somewhere.
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Honestly, there isn't a word of this that I disagree with. I would only add that I would look to package him with a mid-round pick to move up into an earlier round.
I could see moving up in the 4th, packaging him with the pick we got from Atlanta, and moving up in the 4th or packaging him with our 5th and moving up into the bottom quarter of the 4th somewhere.
That is exactly what I was getting at. Use him in the draft to be the missing piece to go up and get someone you want in the mid rounds. There are teams out there like the Rams and the Jags that may actually view MoMass as a valued commodity and be willing to trade back with him as a piece in the deal.
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I have observed your posts and it is quite clear to me that you are a very knowledgeable guy around these parts. That being said, here is my opinion on NoMoreMassPlease.
Great kid, good head on shoulders, character driven, bright, works hard (put in time last year prior to Camp Colt working out with some big names), etc. The problem is, the kid doesn't parlay any of his intelligence to the field. His M O since he came out was poor route adjustments to the ball in filight and he has actually managed to get worse. He had Stafford throwing him lasers back then, but he has proven that when the ball is in the air, he generally takes the wrong path toward it.
The kid lacks the instinct required for the position. He is the guy that jumps before the ball gets there, runs past the zone he should settle in giving the QB a smaller window, all that stuff. He will turn a decent throw that he can hand catch into his chest into having his hands fully extended away from his body where a defender can separate him from the ball.
I just want to be done with this kid, I think he is a loser to be honest and we will never get better keeping guys like that around just because they were a second round pick and have good character. I really wanted to like him, but had a breaking point last year. It is imperative we get some receivers in here who know how to run routes, break off hots and generally help our QB instead of hinder him. Hence, time to move on IMO.
Personally, I would try to deal him on draft day to help in some sort of move up farther down in the draft. He won't garner much, but it would be better than cutting him in camp for nothing.
Honestly, there isn't a word of this that I disagree with. I would only add that I would look to package him with a mid-round pick to move up into an earlier round.
I could see moving up in the 4th, packaging him with the pick we got from Atlanta, and moving up in the 4th or packaging him with our 5th and moving up into the bottom quarter of the 4th somewhere.
Not trying to start a dogpile here but I agree with both of you on MO, but I don't agree that he has any trade value in the League. I just don't think that he has any elite attributes and he is not a very instinctive player. I think that if he is not the first option on a play, that we are playing one player short. He is not going to improve much more either at this point and Cribbs has even become a better option at WR. If he makes the final cuts then I don't think that we have done enough to improve this position this year and he is no better then our 4th (at best) WR at this point.
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Massaquoi averaged 18.4 yards/catch as a rookie. In 34 catches he had 11 of 20+ yards. That was with the incredible QB duo of Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson. We went through the mess of QBs in 2010 and he dropped off to 13.4 yards/catch, but he had 7 plays of 20+ yards in 36 catches. Then we went to the short, shorter, and shortest passing game of Colt McCoy last year. Massaquoi averaged 12.4 yards/catch on 31 catches. Last year he only had 4 plays of 20+ yards. Greg Little had 61 catches last year, many from the slot, and averaged 11.6 yards/catch with 2 TD catches. Those 2 TD catches matched Masaquoi. Cribbs averaged 12.6 yards on 41 catches. He caught 4 TD passes, at least 1 after practically begging McCoy to actually throw him the ball. Jordan Norwood averaged only 11.7 yards/catch. So ...... either every single WR we have on this team is now incapable of getting open down the field at all ...... or we have a problem at QB. Let's look at TE ...... Ben Watson had 37 catches for 410 yards and 2 TDs. Last year he had 68 catches for 763, and almost exactly the same yards/catch. (11.1 to 11.2) Evan Moore went from 16 catches for 322 yards to 34 catches for 324 yards. Over twice as many catches, 2 more yards.  Maybe we need to replace our TEs too .... or maybe we're having a problem at the QB position. I actually wonder what our WRs would look like if we had an actual NFL QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Massaquoi averaged 18.4 yards/catch as a rookie. In 34 catches he had 11 of 20+ yards. That was with the incredible QB duo of Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson.
We went through the mess of QBs in 2010 and he dropped off to 13.4 yards/catch, but he had 7 plays of 20+ yards in 36 catches.
Then we went to the short, shorter, and shortest passing game of Colt McCoy last year. Massaquoi averaged 12.4 yards/catch on 31 catches. Last year he only had 4 plays of 20+ yards.
Greg Little had 61 catches last year, many from the slot, and averaged 11.6 yards/catch with 2 TD catches. Those 2 TD catches matched Masaquoi. Cribbs averaged 12.6 yards on 41 catches. He caught 4 TD passes, at least 1 after practically begging McCoy to actually throw him the ball. Jordan Norwood averaged only 11.7 yards/catch.
So ...... either every single WR we have on this team is now incapable of getting open down the field at all ...... or we have a problem at QB.
Let's look at TE ......
Ben Watson had 37 catches for 410 yards and 2 TDs. Last year he had 68 catches for 763, and almost exactly the same yards/catch. (11.1 to 11.2) Evan Moore went from 16 catches for 322 yards to 34 catches for 324 yards. Over twice as many catches, 2 more yards.
Maybe we need to replace our TEs too .... or maybe we're having a problem at the QB position.
I actually wonder what our WRs would look like if we had an actual NFL QB.
Okay, impressive post by the numbers but I seemed to miss in the post where you mentioned that the Browns implemented a whole new scheme based on the WCO with no offseason to do it with and a new head coach serving as OC.
The WR's on this team were complete garbage led by MoMass who missed camp, thus really putting him behind the 8 ball given he is a slow learner to begin with. Josh Cribbs was the best receiver on the team. These guys were running 5 yard curls most of the year, so I am not sure where the QB was responsible getting the ball to them downfield.
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I can see the no off season being a factor for a while, but not the whole season. Somewhere along the way we made up for a few camps in shorts....or we should have.
IMo Little is the only decent receiver we have. At least of the starters. Momass gets disinterested if he isn't the first option, and Cribbs isn't a receiver.
As for Colt, I don't have many expectations for him. He's a back-up type player being forced to start. I really doubt any amount of mini camps will improve his game. What we see is what we get.
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Massaquoi averaged 18.4 yards/catch as a rookie. In 34 catches he had 11 of 20+ yards. That was with the incredible QB duo of Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson.
We went through the mess of QBs in 2010 and he dropped off to 13.4 yards/catch, but he had 7 plays of 20+ yards in 36 catches.
Then we went to the short, shorter, and shortest passing game of Colt McCoy last year. Massaquoi averaged 12.4 yards/catch on 31 catches. Last year he only had 4 plays of 20+ yards.
Greg Little had 61 catches last year, many from the slot, and averaged 11.6 yards/catch with 2 TD catches. Those 2 TD catches matched Masaquoi. Cribbs averaged 12.6 yards on 41 catches. He caught 4 TD passes, at least 1 after practically begging McCoy to actually throw him the ball. Jordan Norwood averaged only 11.7 yards/catch.
So ...... either every single WR we have on this team is now incapable of getting open down the field at all ...... or we have a problem at QB.
Let's look at TE ......
Ben Watson had 37 catches for 410 yards and 2 TDs. Last year he had 68 catches for 763, and almost exactly the same yards/catch. (11.1 to 11.2) Evan Moore went from 16 catches for 322 yards to 34 catches for 324 yards. Over twice as many catches, 2 more yards.
Maybe we need to replace our TEs too .... or maybe we're having a problem at the QB position.
I actually wonder what our WRs would look like if we had an actual NFL QB.
Okay, impressive post by the numbers but I seemed to miss in the post where you mentioned that the Browns implemented a whole new scheme based on the WCO with no offseason to do it with and a new head coach serving as OC.
The WR's on this team were complete garbage led by MoMass who missed camp, thus really putting him behind the 8 ball given he is a slow learner to begin with. Josh Cribbs was the best receiver on the team. These guys were running 5 yard curls most of the year, so I am not sure where the QB was responsible getting the ball to them downfield.
Good points. MOE doesn't fit this offense and the short quick passing game and is not a guy who's going to get YAC either and I think you need those type of receivers in this offense even more so, then in a more vertical attack. He belongs in this League (somewhere like KC), but just not in a WCO.
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I disagree. Massaquoi has good quicks, and if you look at his first year he broke some slants and such for big plays. That's all part of the WCO. However, if you don't have a QB who can get the ball to the receiver on time, or if you have a QB who throws his receivers into concussion after concussion ....... well, then you really don;t have anything.
New receivers are not going to make McCoy better. The only thing that will make McCoy better is if we minimize his impact on the offense as much as possible. If we get a guy like Richardson, run the crap out of the ball, and let McCoy throw predominantly off of play action, then we might have a chance of winning 7 or 8 games. However, if we are going to require McCoy to make plays on offense, then we'll be back in the 13-14 PPG range again.
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New receivers are not going to make McCoy better.
Andy Dalton's Mom & Dad...and EVERY person I know (in person) would vehemently disagree with your take there.
As a matter of fact, you are the only Brown's fan I have heard even remotely suggest what you keep suggesting over...and over...and over.
IF our existing guys were at least 'average' I could roll with the point.
MoMass and Robiskie are Pashos-esque...and they were our two best at WR to start the year last year...two of the three are (thankfully) no longer on the team. Mo is next.
Your insistence that WRs will not make McCoy any better is as perplexing as Peen's continued insistence that we "blew it" on the Rams trade.
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I disagree. Massaquoi has good quicks, and if you look at his first year he broke some slants and such for big plays. That's all part of the WCO. However, if you don't have a QB who can get the ball to the receiver on time, or if you have a QB who throws his receivers into concussion after concussion ....... well, then you really don;t have anything.
New receivers are not going to make McCoy better. The only thing that will make McCoy better is if we minimize his impact on the offense as much as possible. If we get a guy like Richardson, run the crap out of the ball, and let McCoy throw predominantly off of play action, then we might have a chance of winning 7 or 8 games. However, if we are going to require McCoy to make plays on offense, then we'll be back in the 13-14 PPG range again.
I strongly disagree, Mccoy threw plenty. of slants to Moe last year and he either did not get his head around in time or he let the ball bounce off of his hands, because he did not react quickly enough. Like I said at this point he is no better then our 4th WR and even that is debatable. I like Mitchell over him too.
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His head was rolling around because Colt throws the ball behind players nearly every throw.
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Your insistence that WRs will not make McCoy any better is as perplexing as Peen's continued insistence that we "blew it" on the Rams trade.
Or that we could simply use a guard as a full back.  Sorry peen, but that and that CB is the easiest position to play have always had me scratching my head.
YTown...
IMO our receivers ran themselves into concussions as often as not. I don't think any of them were running good routes. And I believe that was responsible for a lot of Colt's hesitation and check downs. The lack of an off season really hurt the whole offense and you can't "catch up" on it once the season starts.
Yes, you can get experience in it as the season rolls on. But to deeply teach/install the offense during the season ain't gonna happen. They had a short training camp and then the bell rung.
It's one reason our offense was so basic/simplistic. Nobody knew it and the time for really teaching it had gone past and the time for game planning and installing the plan were upon them. Once you start the games every day of practice is dedicated to installing the game plan. There is no time for teaching the system in the same aspect as is done in the off season and in training camp.
Why this is so hard for so many to see is beyond me. There was a perfect storm of misfortune laid on this team by way of the lockout.
I'd almost bet it was the first time in the history of the NFL that a team installed a new defense, a new offense, with a new DC and a new HC/OC, (not to mention a draft full of rookies who'd never set foot on an NFL practice field yet), and was forced to do it without an off season or even a chance to meet the players before training camp.
What did anyone expect out of that scenario? They were very close to winning a couple more games and to have done what they did considering the odds against them I felt they did as well as could be expected.
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...Colt throws the ball behind players nearly every throw.
Exaggerate much?
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His head was rolling around because Colt throws the ball behind players nearly every throw.
Funny how Little seemed to do better on those same slants. It's a relatively easy 3 step drop pass for any QB if the timing is right and that's as much apart of the job of the WR as it is the QB's who is basically throwing to a spot on the field.
It's the WR's responsibility on that play to get a release and position on the CB and get to the spot where the ball is supposed to be.
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What did anyone expect out of that scenario?
I think that 20 points and 320 yards per game were realistic expectations.
As it stands, we scored 218 points, and at least 49 of those came when trailing by 9 or more points.
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It's the WR's responsibility on that play to get a release and position on the CB and get to the spot where the ball is supposed to be.
Around here with a few folks, that doesn't matter.. they don't want to seem to hear anything that might elude to Colt McCoy not being a horrible QB.....
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It's the WR's responsibility on that play to get a release and position on the CB and get to the spot where the ball is supposed to be.
Around here with a few folks, that doesn't matter.. they don't want to seem to hear anything that might elude to Colt McCoy not being a horrible QB.....
Yeah and they also don't like to hear that we don't have jack at the WR position.
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Not trying to start a dogpile here but I agree with both of you on MO, but I don't agree that he has any trade value in the League. I just don't think that he has any elite attributes and he is not a very instinctive player. I think that if he is not the first option on a play, that we are playing one player short. He is not going to improve much more either at this point and Cribbs has even become a better option at WR. If he makes the final cuts then I don't think that we have done enough to improve this position this year and he is no better then our 4th (at best) WR at this point.
I think he might have some value for a team looking for a WR and that sees something that they can correct and make him worth taking a flyer on at that point. If we package him with a 5th (where we're drafting high) and move up into the bottom part of the 4th with a team like New Orleans, who did lose Meacham to San Diego. They're virtually the same size and maybe they think that they can coach him into being able to catch the ball. It's not too much of a stretch to think that we could move up from the 5th into the 4th packaging players we don't really want that some other team might find some value in.
The fact that you think that if he makes the final roster that the Browns haven't made enough movement to address the WR position. Of course, I agree. On a team that's otherwise better than the Browns, he might be serviceable and all a team that traded for him would give up would be draft position, not even a selection.
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Not trying to start a dogpile here but I agree with both of you on MO, but I don't agree that he has any trade value in the League. I just don't think that he has any elite attributes and he is not a very instinctive player. I think that if he is not the first option on a play, that we are playing one player short. He is not going to improve much more either at this point and Cribbs has even become a better option at WR. If he makes the final cuts then I don't think that we have done enough to improve this position this year and he is no better then our 4th (at best) WR at this point.
I think he might have some value for a team looking for a WR and that sees something that they can correct and make him worth taking a flyer on at that point. If we package him with a 5th (where we're drafting high) and move up into the bottom part of the 4th with a team like New Orleans, who did lose Meacham to San Diego. They're virtually the same size and maybe they think that they can coach him into being able to catch the ball. It's not too much of a stretch to think that we could move up from the 5th into the 4th packaging players we don't really want that some other team might find some value in.
The fact that you think that if he makes the final roster that the Browns haven't made enough movement to address the WR position. Of course, I agree. On a team that's otherwise better than the Browns, he might be serviceable and all a team that traded for him would give up would be draft position, not even a selection.
It's just that it never fails to amaze me how little value some proven veteran players bring in terms of a draft picks by trade.
I think that he could possibly bring a 6th round pick, but most teams will probably just chose to wait to see who is cut or waived.
Jacksonville took a chance on Robo last year, so I could see a team having interest, but I just don't think that many will be quick to give up a draft pick.
Anyway if this becomes a reality, then perhaps it's because we have upgraded the position and that can't be a bad thing. 
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Yeah, Ben Watson suddenly forgot how to run routes in his 8th season. How many of our guys got concussed this year? Are you seriously going to say that it's because not one of them knows how to run a route? Watson had 3 concussions. One was in training camp. I'm not sure what caused that one. One was against the Steelers, as he was crushed just as the ball arrived. One was against the Seahawks, although it wasn't reported until the 2nd half. Considering that his only reception was a 5 yard pass ......... I'd assume that was probably when it happened. Alex Smith got injured after being smashed after a short catch. (shoulder) Norwood was concussed on a short pass. Massaquoi had a concussion on a short pass over the middle. That's a lot of concussions and injuries to all be the receivers' faults.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yeah, Ben Watson suddenly forgot how to run routes in his 8th season.
How many of our guys got concussed this year? Are you seriously going to say that it's because not one of them knows how to run a route?
Watson had 3 concussions. One was in training camp. I'm not sure what caused that one. One was against the Steelers, as he was crushed just as the ball arrived. One was against the Seahawks, although it wasn't reported until the 2nd half. Considering that his only reception was a 5 yard pass ......... I'd assume that was probably when it happened. Alex Smith got injured after being smashed after a short catch. (shoulder) Norwood was concussed on a short pass. Massaquoi had a concussion on a short pass over the middle.
That's a lot of concussions and injuries to all be the receivers' faults.
Maybe (probable) the defenses we faced are sitting on those short routes for a lack of a deep threat ... Just saying.
I don't think it's as clear cut a QB problem that you seem to be insinuating it was.
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It's just that it never fails to amaze me how little value some proven veteran players bring in terms of a draft picks by trade.
I think that he could possibly bring a 6th round pick, but most teams will probably just chose to wait to see who is cut or waived.
I agree, but if a player is waived, then the process begins on claiming them off of waivers. The player would have to make it through the list of teams. Indy, needs receivers and might be willing to pick up someone like Massaquoi off of waivers. With Luck throwing the ball and Reggie Wayne still a target, not using a pick on such a player could very well appeal to them.
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Jacksonville took a chance on Robo last year, so I could see a team having interest, but I just don't think that many will be quick to give up a draft pick.
I'm not suggesting that a draft pick be given up, just draft position, say for a team picking late in the 4th to move back into the 5th but acquiring the services of Massaquoi in return as well.
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Anyway if this becomes a reality, then perhaps it's because we have upgraded the position and that can't be a bad thing.
That's the intention with these ideas that are being tossed out there. Sounds crazy, I know. Take a look at the numbers of trades made in those rounds over recent drafts. It's remarkable.
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Yeah, but why are they sitting on those short routes?
Massaquoi has shown himself to be a legitimate deep threat .... if the ball is thrown his way. Cribbs can go deep. Watson lived to split the seams in the defense in 2010. Some f it may be routes called ...... but almost every play in the WCO has a deep route somewhere. So ..... if the receivers are capable of going deep .... do go deep ...... and the QB keeps throwing short, sometimes after looking the defender into the short route, (go back and look at how many times McCoy looked short, then looked short again, then finally threw the damn ball. It was way, way too many times) then who is at fault, and who is the victim?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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QBs make WRs, WRs do not make QBs.
A great WR can help a poor QB, but he'll never turn a poor QB into a great QB. A great QB can deem to find extremely productive to great WRs anywhere, and almost every year to boot.
I like MoMass, and wish we had a QB who could get him the ball like Anderson did. He's not a "run a 3 yard route" WR., so he doesn't get used with this QB. It's a shame.
I didn't go back and do all of the stat checking, but I would bet money that the vast majority of McCoy's passing yards came to TE, RB, and the slot receiver position. I can rarely remember him throwing outside and down the field at all.
I dunno, man. I look at at Culpepper's career with and without Randy Moss and I'm pretty astounded.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Culpepper was also never healthy from 2005 onward (2004 was the last year he and Moss were together in Minnesota). He was still completing around 60% of his passes at around 7 yards per pass up until his stint with the Lions. He just started only 17 games from 2005 to 2007, and for three different teams
It's also safe to say that no receiver in this draft projects to be a good as Randy Moss.
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Massaquoi has shown himself to be a legitimate deep threat .... if the ball is thrown his way. Cribbs can go deep.
Now I understand...you and I are watching two different, unrelated teams.
MoMass and Cribbs BOTH...would not get to run ANY routes for ANY other team in our division.
Deep, short, curl...does not matter...they would not even get on the field.
Yet McCoy is at fault. 
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jc...sorta...
The "McCoy struggles because of his receivers" and "the receivers struggle because of McCoy" camps should probably all just settle down and agree that none of them have played very well for the Browns. It's not an all-or-nothing, black-or-white situation. It's pretty easy to point to a instance in 2010 where Colt did something good, just like its easy to find something that MoMass or Cribbs or Evan Moore or Ben Watson did well with a different QB, but at the end of the day they're all part of the problem.
Yeah, we'd probably be a little better if we had Aaron Rodgers throwing to Greg Little and MoMass and whoever else we run out there. We'd probably be a little better if Colt was throwing to Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson split wide with Wes Welker in the slot. Those scenarios don't validate either absolute, because football isn't a math problem where if you add two parts together you get some singular result.
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Yeah ... I guess Massaquoi going for 18+ in his rookie year with the dynamic duo of Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson throwing to him was a mirage. Our QBs have sucked ..... not been pretty bad ..... not kinda stunk ...... they have absolutely and in no uncertain terms, sucked. They have been awful across the board. Our QBs have not been good since DA's 2007 year ...... Colt McCoy is one of those. He was awful last year. He wasn't "so-so", wasn't "not too good" .... he stunk. He stunk in so many ways that we also scored a whopping 13 points/game. That's not how a starting QB performs, no matter what he has around him. The Rams, with receivers starting after walking in off the street, and an OL that was a mess, scored 289 points in 2010. We scored 218 last year. That shows the level of suckitude we experienced last year. Why? It all starts with the guy under Center. If your QB stinks, your offense stinks. Now, even if we take a Blackmon at #4, we still are going to regularly play 3 other guys in the current receiver corps. I guess that this is the next excuse for McCoy ...... "But the Browns didn't get him 2 or 3 WRs .... and besides, who knew that Blackmon was going to bust like this?!?!?!" 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Let me add that I don't think that we have a bunch of #1 receivers out there. I do think that we have several #2s though.
Can a team win with a bunch of 2s? Sure they can, especially in an offense like this where pure straight line speed isn't the single most important factor a receiver brings to the field.
When almost every major, national sportswriter and reporter comes out and say that our biggest need is QB ... it's because that's what they see, and what is reported to them. Sportswriter after sportswriter jumped off the McCoy bandwagon last year, and they did so not because they don't like him ..... not because it was easy for them to do so, but they did it because he struggled badly last year. Any QB .... and I mean ANY QB can throw a 5 yard completion. That is not a hard pass to throw, and a QB should be around 70% on those little throws behind the LOS, uo to the 5-10 yard passes.
Great QBs don't make their living throwing just those little dump off type passes. They make their money because they can hit a receiver breaking open for a big play. The are great because they put the ball on their receiver where he can make a play with it. If their receiver is covered under/inside, then they throw over the top. If the receiver is covered deep, then they bring the receiver back to them with the throw. Great QBs know how to get their receivers open.
We have had, with 1 year off, a procession of guys who cannot make NFL throws. They throw only to open guys, or to stationary targets. Frye, Quinn, and McCoy are the same damn QB, over and over again. It's like being in QB hell. That type of QB does not win in the NFL, even if he might have a decent completion percentage. If a QB never takes a chance, then he'll never turn the ball over. That's basically what Alex Smith did last year and you see how quickly the Niners were ready to dump him .... even though they went to the NFC Championship Game with him under Center.
Colt McCoy is a less developed and less talented version of Alex Smith. He is Charlie Frye and Brady Quinn all wrapped up into one nice, crappy QB package.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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No real NFL receivers...no RBs outside of a guy we let walk away...a rookie 5th rounder at LG...a second year 3rd rounder at RG...a Pashos at RT...a brand new offensive scheme...a new coaching staff...a strike that prevented OTAs and a training camp...yet you only focus on the WRs and try to tell me how "ok" they are.
Would MoMass see the field for any other team in our division? Robiskie? Cribbs? Maybe Little...maybe.
It's laughable to pin the blame on McCoy the way some posters do.
McCoy needs to play better...he needs better players around him.
All the things I mentioned are to blame and is an unprecedented, perfect storm of issues that worked against us.
There is no way to say for certain whether Colt can be the guy or not going forward when evaluating his play under the circumstances of the 2011-2012 season.
To pretend like he DID have viable receivers last year - or that the highest rated WR in the draft WON'T help McCoy - is just ridiculous.
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When almost every major, national sportswriter and reporter comes out and say that our biggest need is QB ....
Hmmm.Maybe you don't see a problem with this or maybe this is what you use to make your so called evaluations. Sportswriters and reporters.. forget logic.  No wonder why fans here loved Quinn so much, it all makes sense now. Maybe you should listen to what the GM and President say instead of the talking heads. Oh yeah, If they wanted Griffen they could have had him..only someone that believes every sportswriter or reporter believes that we just fell short because that is what they want you to think and believe. Mission accomplished if you ask me. Looks to me like it will be Colt this year. Just like Holmgren said it takes three years..it will be three years and everything else was just lip service. Now let's go and get them weapons.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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What criteria do you use to judge receivers who have no QB actually throwing NFL passes to them? Actually, MoMass probably would have been, at the very least, effective if Pittsburgh had drafted him. He put up over 18 yards/catch as a rookie with nobodies throwing to him. With a guy like Roethlisberger ..... he'd probably have multiple 800-1100 yard season by now. Hell, he was well on his way to that with us as a rookie ..... but we've had the crappiest QB situation in the NFL for the past 5 years ...... so no receiver will be effective. I also love the way you try and say that the rest of the team sucks and needs replaced ..... but the QB just needs help, and to "play better". McCoy does a lot of things poorly ..... things that don't equate to inexperience, or anything else except a lack of ability. He cannot hit a receiver in motion to save his life. He does not seem to understand what he sees on the field. His ability to lead a receiver to an open area with a pass is non-existent. His ball placement is non-existent. He just throws it in their general area, and as long as they catch it, that's just fine. He is afraid to take a shot down the field. Hell, he hesitates when a guy is open by 10 yards, and he often misses those throws too. As an announcer said in a Browns game last season: You just don't get many of those opportunities in a game, and to miss one like that is just inexcusable. (or words to that effect) This was after McCoy had a receiver running, uncovered, in the clear by 10-15 yards, and he overthrew the receiver by 10 yards. (one of those receivers who "can't get open", no doubt) McCoy did one thing effectively last year, and that was to hit a stationary receiver, within 5-6 yards of the LOS. That's it. However, every single QB in the NFL can do that, and most do it better than him. Far better. He threw so rarely down the field, only doing so when the receiver was so wide open it that he had no choice but to throw him the ball. Even then the pass was often well off target. I remember Cribbs waiting on a pass .... he was so wide open it was ridiculous ..... he's waving his hands in the air ...... McCoy is looking ...... and looking ..... and looking ....... and finally unloads a punt pass ...... and there's Cribbs ....... waiting on the pass like it was a damn punt. He should have scored easily, but instead the ball barely made it to him, and by the time it did, coverage finally slid over to him. How do you judge a receiver when the QB is so woefully inept at basic aspects of the position? What do you see as positive traits that McCoy has demonstrated on the football field, that lead you to believe that he can be a plus quality starter? How many teams do you think McCoy would start for? Personally, I can't think of a single one. He lacks basic abilities required of the position. He shouldn't start for us either. Unfortunately, we're stuck, and sunk, with him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Where I draw the line is when the other side tells me I'm here to condascend and make a jerk of myself while they are supposedly acting like St Peter all the while.
I never cast myself as St. Peter. Ask around - I can be pretty condescending myself at times. The difference is, when I do so, I'm very careful to make sure that what I'm saying is factually accurate.
I was merely pointing out that it's a bad look to come in with a holier-than-thou, snarky, condescending tone where you purport to deal in 'facts' and 'truth', and then completely whiff on almost everything you say.
Don't slap a tuxedo on how you were acting when your #1 goal was to impress your click that gangs up on newbies. The click just got disappointed that Riff and I have iron thick skin. When it's too tough for them - it's just right for us! Learn it and live it! Speaking of holier than thou - where in this whole thing did you ever choose to be the bigger man and give this a golden rule both sides could work with? There was actually quite a few people in this thread outside of your little click that informed me and Riffer that they were glad we were here. Maybe if you and all your little click buddies did a better job talking football before we arrived, the 2 of us wouldn't have to feel responsible for your little man syndrome. Not that we ever felt responsible for it anyhow. Good Lord!
Anyway, did I whiff when I told you Mangini took over a 4-12 Jets team and made them 10-6 and 3 years later they were 9-7? Or, was that just inconvenient to the side of debate saying the guy who inherited 9-7 did more by going 9-7 and becoming 8-8 three years later? Is it any wonder why I am being treated to your Bill O'Reilly impersonation? God bless ya!
When I realized my short term memory of 2009 was incorrect in saying we ranked 5th out of 32 teams and running the ball and sacking the qb, I acknowledged it like an adult should; and posted we ranked 3rd in the AFC at sacking the qb and 5th in the AFC in rushing the football. It can be archived pretty easily unless that's too inconvenient for the one of us pretending I never did so. All you really wanted to do was detour away from what those numbers reflected either way in comparison to how this team competed the year it needed to fire the GM and HC. Instead of seeing we were in every ball game late in the 4th quarter in 2009 and ending with 4 straight wins - someone else would look at the record and say they didn't see improvement. The improvement was competition didn't die in the first quarter all the time the way it did in 08. Drafting poorly since 1999 didn't have us armored for better so the turnaround needed to be realistic. That's why I asked the inconvenient question of why do we suppose Mangini could win 10 games as a rookie Head Coach in NY?
When I entered this thread, I noticed a lot of your friendly welcome wagon click telling Riffer just how welcome he really was. I mean what a more mature way to show him how it's done. I mean it's really impressive to send the message to newcomers that they have to earn the right to speak while lectures are being given about condascending tones and appropriate behavior. One person was so impressive - he showed up annoyed at how long this thread was and contributed another post to it. Others are giving lectures about thick skin right after treating us to their panic attacks. That's like Charlie Sheen punctuating one of his panic attacks with an announcement he's winning to the audience. Thanks for showing us!
And PD, if my existence is so toxic and offensive to you - wouldn't the smart thing to do is avoid me instead of handing me a stage? When somebody read my very first post on this board they saw 2 names in it: Mangini and McCoy and warned me this board went through some previous explosions over that long before I got here. It was friendly advice; but now I'm seeing what they meant. It was a politically correct way of warning me there were some people with paper doll skin in here. PD doesn't stand for Paper Doll does it? Did it ever have to be this way between us? What was the alternative? Giving me a chance? You'd get thrown out of the click for that one.
The good news for me and Riffer 1 more time is there were quite a few people in the middle of this thread telling us they were either glad to have us or showing us they wanted to talk about football with us. Isn't it weird how none of them felt like we were condascending or just tough to talk football with? Evidently, that didn't sit well with someone so a lot of your click got alerted really quickly somehow; and the thumbs down began to crawl out of the woodwork. I'm really impressed that is the group worthy of lecturing about acceptable behavior. Time to change that!
I can't help anyone who isn't happy about how they have presented their insights about the Browns, players or football in general. When I introduced myself in my first post as a former high school football coach from the stone ages, I can't control if someone felt like that made them feel like they were 8 years old. It wasn't my intention, I promise. If anything, it says that wasn't my calling in life right? If someone hates newcomers at all costs - that can only translate to this new guy thinks he's a real man and everyone else is Chaz Bono. A guilt trip is only available for somebody that chooses to take it.
For those of you out there that enjoyed any of our previous conversations, thank you! Plenty more to come so stay tuned.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/26/12 08:01 AM.
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