Quote: Yep, he did OK in carefully managed situations under Mangini. Those days are past. He's not going to be carefully managed in the WCO. He has to be that focus in the WCO.
In that New England game he went 14-19 for 174 yards, no TD, no INT. (he did have a rushing TD) Peyton Hillis actually ran for more yards (184) than we passed for. (and had more TDs, 2)
That's not going to happen in the WCO ...... not if he wants to be the long term solution at QB. He can't be an accessory. He has to be the driving force.
Where in this whole thing are you proving to anyone that young QBs going to terrible teams consistently ace their first 16-21 NFL starts? Does this get easier without OTAs to install the new playbook?
Ytown, here is the experience volume of the WR Shurmur gave the most reps to (Greg Little): 2007 NC 13 rec 99 yds 1 TD 2008 he played RB 2009 NC 62 rec 724 yds 5 TD 2010 Suspended
Most of the former QBs, Head Coaches or WRs covering our games had to watch a lot of film to prepare themselves for content. Guys like Gannon, Fouts, Tasker, and Mora Jr all echoed the same comments/conclusions. McCoy clearly needs more weapons here in order to succeed. Most of our commentators seemed to think he could be very good if this franchise drafts better receivers.
My favorite description came from Hall of Fame QB Dan Fouts near the end of the 3rd quarter in SF. He said somethign along the lines of: "We've been watching Cleveland's passing game for almost 3 full quarters and I have yet to see 1 receiving route downfield all day. I don't know how Cleveland expects their young QB to be successful throwing into the crowds that a boxed in passing game invites." If you tivo'ed or DVR'd games - go back and listen to Fouts in the 3rd quarter. Shortly thereafter, McCoy threw a down field completion to Cribbs that became a TD pass. Another deep throw into the end zone with a corner right on Little's hip was a great opportunity for Little to prove he was more like AJ Green than Danny Ferry at going up for the ball.
Here was our WR Corps heading into the season: Carlton Mitchell, Brian Robiskie, Jordan Norwood, MoMass, Josh Cribbs and Greg Little. This group that led the NFL in dropped passes instead of the game changing plays we helplessly witnessed from opponents Antonio Brown and AJ Green.
Since 1999, I've heard about all these new schemes (3-4 defense & wco) we needed to copy while the drafting or free agent moves never justified the pressing need to change. Remember, an impressive group of coaches like Bill Belichick, Kirk Ferentz, Nick Saban, and Scott O'Brien took 4 years to win consistently enough to win a playoff game here. That says a lot about how important the draft can be for changing a bad team into a good team. It also tells you how long it can take especially if you need a better right side of the oline, new RB, play maker WR, RDE, secondary help and OLBer help. Even worse, what happens if we lose reliable starters to injury?
I'd love to join you Ytown in thinking all we have to do is replace the QB. The problem with that is it won't make any more sense than racing to another new scheme if you refuse to add the right personnel to justify the change. What makes you certain McCoy couldn't do what Jeff Garcia was able to do in the right places? That guy led 2 or 3 different teams to playoffs with a Pro Bowl resume. In Cleveland and Detroit, he looked like all the other QBs that tried and failed. Let's make the playoffs before we talk about the Superbowl with the roster we have.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 03/31/1211:11 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
Quote: Yep, he did OK in carefully managed situations under Mangini. Those days are past. He's not going to be carefully managed in the WCO. He has to be that focus in the WCO.
In that New England game he went 14-19 for 174 yards, no TD, no INT. (he did have a rushing TD) Peyton Hillis actually ran for more yards (184) than we passed for. (and had more TDs, 2)
That's not going to happen in the WCO ...... not if he wants to be the long term solution at QB. He can't be an accessory. He has to be the driving force.
Where in this whole thing are you proving to anyone that young QBs going to terrible teams consistently ace their first 16-21 NFL starts? Does this get easier without OTAs to install the new playbook?
Ytown, here is the experience volume of the WR Shurmur gave the most reps to (Greg Little): 2007 NC 13 rec 99 yds 1 TD 2008 he played RB 2009 NC 62 rec 724 yds 5 TD 2010 Suspended
Most of the former QBs, Head Coaches or WRs covering our games had to watch a lot of film to prepare themselves for content. Guys like Gannon, Fouts, Tasker, and Mora Jr all echoed the same comments/conclusions. McCoy clearly needs more weapons here in order to succeed. Most of our commentators seemed to think he could be very good if this franchise drafts better receivers.
My favorite description came from Hall of Fame QB Dan Fouts near the end of the 3rd quarter in SF. He said somethign along the lines of: "We've been watching Cleveland's passing game for almost 3 full quarters and I have yet to see 1 receiving route downfield all day. I don't know how Cleveland expects their young QB to be successful throwing into the crowds that a boxed in passing game invites." If you tivo'ed or DVR'd games - go back and listen to Fouts in the 3rd quarter. Shortly thereafter, McCoy threw a down field completion to Cribbs that became a TD pass. Another deep throw into the end zone with a corner right on Little's hip was a great opportunity for Little to prove he was more like AJ Green than Danny Ferry at going up for the ball.
Here was our WR Corps heading into the season: Carlton Mitchell, Brian Robiskie, Jordan Norwood, MoMass, Josh Cribbs and Greg Little. This group that led the NFL in dropped passes instead of the game changing plays we helplessly witnessed from opponents Antonio Brown and AJ Green.
Since 1999, I've heard about all these new schemes (3-4 defense & wco) we needed to copy while the drafting or free agent moves never justified the pressing need to change. Remember, an impressive group of coaches like Bill Belichick, Kirk Ferentz, Nick Saban, and Scott O'Brien took 4 years to win consistently enough to win a playoff game here. That says a lot about how important the draft can be for changing a bad team into a good team. It also tells you how long it can take especially if you need a better right side of the oline, new RB, play maker WR, RDE, secondary help and OLBer help. Even worse, what happens if we lose reliable starters to injury?
I'd love to join you Ytown in thinking all we have to do is replace the QB. The problem with that is it won't make any more sense than racing to another new scheme if you refuse to add the right personnel to justify the change. What makes you certain McCoy couldn't do what Jeff Garcia was able to do in the right places? That guy led 2 or 3 different teams to playoffs with a Pro Bowl resume. In Cleveland and Detroit, he looked like all the other QBs that tried and failed. Let's make the playoffs before we talk about the Superbowl with the roster we have.
Oh Stop Otto,,, its a waste of time. You will never convince Ytown. His mind as well as a few others is made up.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Yeah, my mind is made up, and for the reasons I have outlined hundreds of times on these boards.
I see major, structural flaws in the way Colt McCoy plays QB. I see too many of them to reasonably expect that he will ever overcome them all to the point that he can become a plus level QB, let alone an elite QB.
Anyway ...... I will hope that he somehow miraculously turns his entire game around next season, if he is the starter, and leads us to wins. I don't expect that he'll get beyond a Tavaris Jackson/Matt Moore level of QB ..... but I guess there's always hope ........
In the meantime, I will continue to hope that we find someone better .... somehow ..... so that fans will stop running down the rest of the team in the interests of protecting the QB. .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Oh Stop Otto,,, its a waste of time. You will never convince Ytown. His mind as well as a few others is made up.
Great point. Thanks!
Ytown was talking Superbowl Sunday; and you only do that kind of thing when you think your team is just 1 player away from it. I made the mistake of challenging him to see Colt McCoy led his last 2 teams to the biggest Championship Games those levels offered. Then McCoy comes to Cleveland and all of a sudden he is the only reason his new team loses?
I feel like Rip Van Winkle coming off a nap that missed all the terrific football that went on in Cleveland in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010 games before McCoy upgraded the 18 million $ worth of QB alternatives here. Why should we ever challenge a different thought process than starting over at QB and Head Coach one more time considering how well it has worked so far.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
Just like you've said that Colt McCoy is All World, and if it wasn't for the fact that the entire team, and coaching staff, front office, trainers, and everyone else associated with the team ...... well, if it wasn't for all of those crappy players and people, and if we could just surround him with all first round picks and greatness at every position ..... well then we'd win Super Bowls with Colt McCoy.
Oh wait .... that actually is far closer to what you have said than what you represent my points as.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Oh Stop Otto,,, its a waste of time. You will never convince Ytown. His mind as well as a few others is made up.
Great point. Thanks!
Ytown was talking Superbowl Sunday; and you only do that kind of thing when you think your team is just 1 player away from it. I made the mistake of challenging him to see Colt McCoy led his last 2 teams to the biggest Championship Games those levels offered. Then McCoy comes to Cleveland and all of a sudden he is the only reason his new team loses?
I feel like Rip Van Winkle coming off a nap that missed all the terrific football that went on in Cleveland in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010 games before McCoy upgraded the 18 million $ worth of QB alternatives here. Why should we ever challenge a different thought process than starting over at QB and Head Coach one more time considering how well it has worked so far.
I must admit that I have been one calling for Shurmur's head. I'm not sure if it's just the off-season that's caused me to mellow a bit on that or if I've just come to the realization that he's not going anywhere as long as the Walrus is here and that I think Holmgren isn't going anywhere for at least two more years, probably 3 more years at the least.
I think I'm just convinced that Heckert will be able to solve the talent level problems on the team with the draft and that we'll go from there.
Quote: I think I'm just convinced that Heckert will be able to solve the talent level problems on the team with the draft and that we'll go from there.
I'm right here with you Anarchy! Nobody is going to look smart playing chess with pawns. Looking at Heckert's previous role in adding LeSean McCoy, Jeremy Maclin and DeSean Jackson to Philly's West Coast Offense gives me the confidence. Try to think back to what was commonly thought of Michael Vick's passing consistency/accuracy/skills before he started working with these 3 prongs of attack in Philly. He was just a good college QB that can run the football. Hindsight shows the previous conclusions may have been justified on a team orchestrated by a defensive minded Head Coach like Jim Mora Jr. However, Andy Reid thought he was Steve Young looking for the same fit in a West Coast Offense Steve Young once needed for the much improved passing resume.
Heckert also found Trent Cole for that team much like he added Jabaal Sheard here. After we just received 4 compensation picks to our last 2 rounds, we now have 13 picks to get excited about.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
Quote: I don't expect that he'll get beyond a Tavaris Jackson/Matt Moore level of QB ..... but I guess there's always hope ........
Congrats Ytown... he has already surpassed them... you got your wish.
Not really ..... but OK. He's just about on a par with those 2 powerhouse QBs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I see some very nice throws down the middle of the field here. I see him lay up a nice pass putting the ball where his TE can go up and get it, I see some nice runs, and some scrambling ability. I see him do a good job selling the pass when it's a QB sneak (nice acting) I see a nice pump fake. Oh and I hear some guy killing my ears in that video and thinking wow I bet Colt sings better than that
Thanks for the highlights saying all they needed to say against a playoff opponent GMdawg. If one doesn't want to extract an ounce of promise from that - they probably won't. We always wants another QB than the one we have but don't we dare allow one of them to get 3 strikes in a batter's box under the conditions we've thrown them out to the wolves under. I hope all those that want immediate success at QB aren't already standing in line for "Tannehill isn't ready to start as a rookie in this league but...."
I want to be careful not to offend anyone here; but it's hard to get myself excited about that. Didn't Holmgren announce McCoy wasn't supposed to start or outplay/outwin the 18 million worth of experienced QB alternatives here as a rookie? McCoy actually beat the majority of top opponents in the Big 12 while Tannehill didn't beat 4 of the best opponents his team faced and had 2 different 3 INT performances. Is that really greener grass at #4 overall? If one thinks McCoy represents dead grass - then we should be able to upgrade him as late as Nick Foles right?
What is catapulting Tannehill as high as #4 in this draft? As much as I appreciate Mike Mayock and all his diligent work - he was just as giddy about Jamarcus Russell following a workout without NFL corners and pass rushers challenging the mechanics, accuracy and time to throw. You go to a crappy franchise, and game day is never as simple as the QB designing the convenience of pitch and catch. Instead, the team with more talent is dictating how the young QB's day is going to go. On this team, we always seemed to see unblocked blitzers and corners that close on the ball better than Little and MoMass. If the Big 12 doesn't play a lick of defense, why isn't 2 different 3 INT performances in that conference a red flag? If he's a far more talented QB McCoy will ever be - why didn't this show up on film, stats or wins and losses? McCoy erased 4th quarter deficits vrs teams like Ohio State and Nebraska while I'm hearing the Tannehill led Aggies lost leads in many of their losses.
I just did more research on Tannehill and learned he showed up to A&M as a QB; but switched to WR before switching back to QB. If this kid was clearly one of the best QBs in the nation, you make your offense/program all about featuring this kid's talents instead of asking him to be a WR don't you? Who was the better QB and what NFL team is he starting for today? We're talking about A&M where any legit 4th pick overall prospect should have been starting there for at least 3 years.
Anyway, I'm all for improving the QB competition but the QB won't matter a lick if we continue to choose to look like summer school at the WR position. How long are we going to count on young average WRs and ones lacking experience and polish in lieu of just drafting a talented WR? You don't teach a Jerry Rice to be Jerry Rice. You find a hard working and talented kid that has been working hard to perfect his WR craft throughout college and say this is exactly what a team lacking play makers needs in round 1. What do you always hear about Cris Carter, Michael Irvin, Jerry Rice or Larry Fitzgerald? Nobody outworks them in practice which is great for the philosophy of you play like you practice. I can see a Justin Blackmon making us proud with the 4th pick overall. That won't prevent us from landing a promising QB prospect in a place we won't have to reach for one.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 04/01/1210:55 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
A two minute highlight reel (most of the footage being from his rookie year) is why I'm supposed to buy Colt as a viable starter in this league? That's also the same NE defense that made Matt Flynn look all-pro.
I'm okay with the fact we're stuck with Colt because nothing else is available, but let's not turn chincy highlight reels into gospel to his potential...
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Quote: A two minute highlight reel (most of the footage being from his rookie year) is why I'm supposed to buy Colt as a viable starter in this league? That's also the same NE defense that made Matt Flynn look all-pro.
I'm okay with the fact we're stuck with Colt because nothing else is available, but let's not turn chincy highlight reels into gospel to his potential...
I think the video was posted to dispute some of the things people fabricate about McCoy or the offense and there is a lot of that. Not saying Colt is a great QB or the long term solution because we don't know. I am guessing he has a breakout year. There is one thing with Colt that can't be disputed but it is also a team thing. The fact that he is 0-8 against the AFC North. I believe Detroit was the D that made Flynn look like an all-pro and it was two different years so not sure where you are going with that.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
From the 30 of one side of the field to the 14 of the opposite is where Little caught it..How many yards is that? When Colt has a pocket to step up into he can whip it pretty good.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Quote: A two minute highlight reel (most of the footage being from his rookie year) is why I'm supposed to buy Colt as a viable starter in this league? That's also the same NE defense that made Matt Flynn look all-pro.
Nope. If that's the same defense, it pleases me to remind you McCoy's team beat that defense while the QB with the Superbowl roster could not. Someone else just added more highlights for our young QB that has split his first 21 starts with 2 different playbooks and coaching staffs. When I see these hints of what could be - I'm pretty confident thinking the consistency will improve when the play making talent around the QB improves. I think you'll agree we're not exactly holding a bunch of Jerry Rices hostage here. Now we just lost the RB that made the best catch in those videos so that's 1 more hole to fill in a talent deprived offense.
I've been paying very close attention to all the Tannehill hype on the NFL channel this week telling me as a Browns fan I am supposed to be excited about Ryan Tannehill as long as I don't expect him to play 1 single down in 2012. I just heard this about the last QB we drafted; but at least that was in a round where I would expect to hear such a thing.
I don't really want us using our 4th pick overall on the similar prospect that won less frequently in the Big 12 while showing the red flags of losing leads and sporting 2 different 3 INT performances. Some people are seeing a great athlete, 6'4" height and 4.6 forty speed which answers some degree of intrigue I suppose. However, he played in a QB friendly conference where the defenses ranked out this sadly out of 120 teams ranked: RANK TOT YDS YPG 61. Missouri 4587 382.25 62. Oklahoma 4598 383.17 66. Texas A&M 4638 386.50 74. Kansas St. 4785 398.75 99. Iowa St. 5188 432.33 107. Oklahoma St.5348 445.67 114. Baylor 5730 477.50 115. Texas Tech 5827 485.58 120. Kansas 6197 516.42
If I want a taller QB from that same conference - why don't I look at the guy who carried the 107th ranked Defense to a BCS head to head confrontation with Andrew Luck's team and beat it. He won without excuses just like McCoy did in that conference. I'm the type that has to see some degree of carryover to the field. When I don't, I think of Kyle Boller.
For those worried about age - you have to look at it another way. Kurt Warner received his first NFL chance to start at 28 years of age in 1999. He didn't retire from the league until 2010. Warren Moon, Jeff Garcia and Joe Theisman were all told they had to go ace auditions in the CFL before earning the right to start in the NFL. All 3 of them had nice NFL careers. Timing is everything. Who got the better Steve Young as starter after his USFL gig the Tampa Bay Bucs or the SF 49ers when he was 28? And the Drew Brees the SD GM was ready to give up on at age 25 made the Pro Bowl at age 26 but they wasted a 1st overall pick on a QB.
Bigger theme, bigger picture many QBs don't come of age until they are somewhere between 26 and 28 years old. What if that's McCoy's only problem aside from getting decent play makers here? I think we can grab a promising young QB prospect without reaching while filling a lot of important needs with best players available.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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