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So you're saying you hate Blackmon and would be really PO'd if we picked him, right? 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Too short, too slow, poor hands, poor character, runs bad routes, parts his hair on the wrong side, his toes aren't long enough for his feet leading to balance issues, his ears stick too far out causing an expansion of the helmet which reduces aerodynamics, and I'm pretty sure he can't roll his "R's" so when he goes to a Tex-Mex restaurant he'll fail to get the Enchorrito that he so-badly craves, leading to an attitude problem which will bleed over to the locker-room causing an ultimate fallout where he goes all Hillis on the team, marries his 14-year old cousin, and winds up with the Steelers.
No thanks.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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That's - oddly - one of the more rational posts of the year. 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Do you consider Greg Jennings (5'11" 198lbs) and Wes Welker (5'9" 185lbs) elite?
I'd put them in the 2nd tier of guys after the Calvin, Andre, Larry and possibly AJ (if he builds on last year). Guys who are great WRs but are missing 1 tool or so.
And, I have no problem drafting such a WR at #4 (as long as we didn't grade another prospect significantly higher at that spot).
#gmstrong
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I think that Richardson would be the biggest help to our current QB by about 10 miles. For McCoy to be able to turn and hand off for 4-5 yards on any given play would be huge. Add in Richardson's ability as a blocker and receiver, and it's a no brainer to me. If we want McCoy to even hope to become successful, then he is going to need a great, not good, but great, running game, and the ability to have a RB who actually draws attention on play action.
On almost any other kind of team I would take Claiborne first. Cover CBs are incredibly valuable. However, this is not a normal circumstance, and if we are keeping McCoy for the year as our starter, and the brain trust is serious about us winning more than 6 games, then we need to give McCoy a LOT of help. The biggest help we could give him would be a great running game that he can play pass off of.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I would not consider either of those two elite. Jennings is probably top 10 but nothing more than that.
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Quote:
I think that Richardson would be the biggest help to our current QB by about 10 miles. For McCoy to be able to turn and hand off for 4-5 yards on any given play would be huge. Add in Richardson's ability as a blocker and receiver, and it's a no brainer to me. If we want McCoy to even hope to become successful, then he is going to need a great, not good, but great, running game, and the ability to have a RB who actually draws attention on play action.
On almost any other kind of team I would take Claiborne first. Cover CBs are incredibly valuable. However, this is not a normal circumstance, and if we are keeping McCoy for the year as our starter, and the brain trust is serious about us winning more than 6 games, then we need to give McCoy a LOT of help. The biggest help we could give him would be a great running game that he can play pass off of.
So in your logic we shouldn't take the best WR in the Draft, because we have McCoy at QB for another year. Is that correct? If so.....
I think that line of thinking is flawed unless you think we will never get another QB. 
Does a running game help the/any QB?
Yes. That's true, but I don't think you need to spend a 4th selection for that part of your team to fill that need either.
But I get it, that some of you just don't get that.
At some point we need to get a QB ... Just as at some point we need to get a go to WR, because we have 'had' neither.
We have had some pretty good RB's, but they will never be what they once where to their teams as in yesteryear.
The rules today favor the passing game and high scoring offenses. That's where we are at today with this game and we will never keep pace with the rest of the League with out dated thinking.
RB's are just not as important to the bigger picture.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
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I think that a great running game will help McCoy more than anything else. If he has the ability to hand off 5 times in a row, then run a play action pass for a decent play, that's what would, IMHO, be the best possible way to use the abilities he has. I think that we can get a receiver later in the draft. I also think that our receivers, while not All Pros, certainly got a really bad rap last year. Further, how easily is a rookie WR going to learn, and acclimate to this offense? Let's assume that we draft a receiver at 4, but he doesn't start until game 10. Is that helping the QB?
I think that a great RB and a really good RT would help this offense far, far more than a WR would. That's where I would start. If McCoy, who I consider to be a very limited QB, is going to be our starter, then we need to help him by not putting the entire burden of offensive production on his shoulders, but rather allow him to make plays when the odds are more in his favor by virtue of the run game working, play action, and favorable down/distance situations. I don't know that he'll ever be a good QB, but this would at least give him a chance to be effective.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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difference between WRs >> difference between RBs (IMO)
that's why I go Blackmon #4 (or Claiborne, no problem with him)
This is the problem I have, because I want offense, no problem, but for anyone who considers going defense with the pick, I'm willing to start a discussion, because after doing some more reading, i'm convinced, ( like a verdict in a jury) that for anybody who thinks Claibourne is worth #4, that, Courtney Upshaw, Lb/De from Alabama, would be the better pick for the Browns.
Even if he's a 3-4 DE, .
Back to the point,
Richardson, vs Blackmon.
Blackmon. ( if it came down to just those two choices, I take Blackmon, Even when I'm trying to look at it in a pro- richardson perspective.)
Look, I'm trying to make the argument, that, ok, there's more receivers, and the Blackmon won't help UNTIL they get the Qb settled, ( because I believe Little is much better than he can show because they won't throw him the ball, and even if they commit to it, the Qb makes enough problems to cause punts to limit the opportunities, so , Blackmon in Cleveland would look much worse than Blackmon in a real offense.
But even in the process of trying to make that argument. another part of my mind is screaming, Blackmon!!!!!! Blackmon is the better pick.
Well it all depends on the Browns make up of their roster, at the time of the choice really.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
I think that a great running game will help McCoy more than anything else. If he has the ability to hand off 5 times in a row, then run a play action pass for a decent play, that's what would, IMHO, be the best possible way to use the abilities he has. I think that we can get a receiver later in the draft. I also think that our receivers, while not All Pros, certainly got a really bad rap last year. Further, how easily is a rookie WR going to learn, and acclimate to this offense? Let's assume that we draft a receiver at 4, but he doesn't start until game 10. Is that helping the QB?
I think that a great RB and a really good RT would help this offense far, far more than a WR would. That's where I would start. If McCoy, who I consider to be a very limited QB, is going to be our starter, then we need to help him by not putting the entire burden of offensive production on his shoulders, but rather allow him to make plays when the odds are more in his favor by virtue of the run game working, play action, and favorable down/distance situations. I don't know that he'll ever be a good QB, but this would at least give him a chance to be effective.
Maybe so Ytown, but I have an eye on the future ... one that includes a franchise QB and we/he who ever that might be is going to need a go to receiver, because that's the name of the game today.
If we can't get our QB today, then we shouldn't pass on a go to receiver, because we will need him more then a RB at some point and hopefully in the not to distant future.
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I like the idea of a " great running game " .. So now talk to me about our OL ?? 
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I like the idea of a " great running game " .. So now talk to me about our OL ??
Draft a RT and let it grow and it'll be good.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I would not consider either of those two elite. Jennings is probably top 10 but nothing more than that.
Top 10 is still pretty darn good.
The more I saw of Blackmon The more he reminded me of Sterling Sharp. He was pretty good too, before injuries shortened his career.
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jc watch this and it will make you appreciate blackmon 19 million times more. we gotta get this guy. http://www.youtube.com/v/_97kBZqj270
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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yep... Then all you need is a QB that can hit the broad side of a barn (2 car garage).
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wow 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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yep... Then all you need is a QB that can hit the broad side of a barn (2 car garage).
I'd bet you are the same guy that liked Derek Anderson or Kelly Holcomb and would have rather drafted AP instead of of Joe Thomas.
It is a good problem to have a WR like Blackmon that can catch with that much range and with that ability as he will make any QB better. Blackmon is much different than the crap we gave any other QB in 13 season with maybe the exception of BE (minus the head issues) or Kevin Johnson who was a possession receiver.
We literally de stroyed almost all of our QB's because they had no protection, no RB, and very sub par WR's. This is exactly why McNabb said he was glad we didn't draft him.
I don't have anything against circles, I don't want to keep going in them.
We have not had any big FA moves and we have been drafting for talent. (Think back to all of our big splashes or even the Redskins in FA. I bet over 50% didn't work out.)
We have been building DL and OL CB and S
We actually now have an all around solid D
We will be getting some talent for our QB to hand off and pass to so we can win games.
Next step... 8-8
Everything we complained about with this team as fans 3 years ago Randy gave us.
2 years from now we will be in the playoffs more consistently. (minus a regime change)
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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j/c I think of it like this: We are trying to implement a pass-oriented WCO. We have no WRs that could get on the field on any other team in our division. We have the 4th OVERALL pick in this draft and a stud WR is sitting there. Why in God's name would we then pick a RB? Can he play WR? Maybe we would convert HIM to a WR? Or is that just reserved for our only current, viable WR? Do people understand that in the WCO you use short passes in lieu of many running plays/downs? That the pass sets up the run? People bag on HH&S all the time for certain moves/non-moves...then suggest that we draft a RB at #4...overall...when we don't have a WR on the team that ANYONE has to defend.  Has anyone outside of this board...heard someone discussing a WCO...then heard how important is the RB position to the WCO?  If we take a RB at #4 overall in our larvae-stage WCO and pass up the opportunity to either get a WR threat (so that we have a threat) or create a lockdown secondary...we will know that we have the wrong guys in charge.
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Understanding that those tests are set up to make the guy look good, it's still pretty cool just to see the science of it.
But, as cool as that thing is, it's his Fiesta Bowl highlights that make me giddy.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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you should check out his game v. Arizona as well if you can. Unstoppable.
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As much as I like the 2 car garage catch radius analogy ... I really like the comparisons with Plaxico Burress who is a full 4" taller yet has 2" less reach overall.  but, but, but that just can't be 
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If we take a RB at #4 overall in our larvae-stage WCO and pass up the opportunity to either get a WR threat (so that we have a threat) or create a lockdown secondary...we will know that we have the wrong guys in charge.
Willie, you may not agree that taking Richardson is the smart move, but to paint the broad-brush stroke that if we don't take a WR then the people in charge have no business being in charge is just silly.
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We are trying to implement a pass-oriented WCO.
No, we're trying to implement WCO-specific schemes in our passing game. Running the ball is still important to any team that wants to win the Super Bowl.
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We have no WRs that could get on the field on any other team in our division.
We have no RB's that could get on the field on any other team in the AFC.
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Why in God's name would we then pick a RB? Can he play WR?
Why in God's name would we then pick a WR? Can he play RB?
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Do people understand that in the WCO you use short passes in lieu of many running plays/downs? That the pass sets up the run?
Do people understand that in any offense in the NFL that running the ball is important, and that in the WCO, where short-passes are used as running plays, a RB who can catch 60 passes a year is critical?
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People bag on HH&S all the time for certain moves/non-moves...then suggest that we draft a RB at #4...overall...when we don't have a WR on the team that ANYONE has to defend.
Why would we draft a WR when we don't have a RB that ANYONE has to give a second thought to?
You feeling me yet, Willie? 
You don't have to favor Richardson over Blackmon or Kalil, but you want this to read that if we take Richardson that we'll have made this franchise-cratering mistake. That's garbage. The TRUTH is that there isn't a wrong answer with any number of guys.
Our O-line STINKS.
Our QB STINKS.
Our RB's STINK.
Our WR's STINK.
Our DB's STINK.
Our RDE's STINK.
/end rant.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
We have no WRs that could get on the field on any other team in our division.
We have no RB's that could get on the field on any other team in the AFC.
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Toad,
Please re-read the paragraph where I mentioned taking a stud WR OR locking down our secondary versus taking a RB...not JUST the taking of a WR.
I understand that we need a better RB...just no way at #4 OVERALL...in a WCO...in ANY WCO...let alone one with the WRs we presently have on our roster.
The drop off in WRs is significant after Blackmon.
The drop off in RBs after Richardson is significant as well...but not as drastic at a position for a WCO...a WCO that presently has no threats at WRs.
I'd rather take Blackmon and then a 3rd Rd RB...over...taking Richardson and a 3rd Rd WR.
RBs can be had later and be productive right away...WRs take time to develop if they are not studs coming out of college.
We are running a WCO with no WRs to speak of and people think we should take a RB at #4 OVERALL?
No...I'm not feeling ya.
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Have read some of the posts here and its good discussion. I'll toss my two cents in and hopefully not duplicate anyone's post.
Given that it looks like a given that we're giving McCoy this season, I think Blackmon at #4 becomes alot more possible as they need to make the call on McCoy this year and, to do that, he needs to have some legitimate weapons in the passing game. Our WR corps is likely the worst in the NFL at this point, led the league in dropped passes and, apart from a promising rookie in Greg Little, do not have any WR that is likely going to develop any further.
We picked up no WRs in FA and it was identified as a need. We have, however, done alot of defensive FA which says to me that defense won't be the prioirity of this draft.
Add that to number of RBs that are successful in the league coming out in later rounds and it makes too much sense to go Blackmon.
Last edited by CanadaDawg; 03/21/12 10:55 AM.
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Let me add that the NFL is universally understood as a passing league.
At #4 OVERALL we can either get our first legit, NFL receiver for our WCO or we can create a CB tandem that will absolutely slow down the pass happy teams in the league.
OR
We can take a RB that will create defenses that put 8 men in the box to stop the run while we throw the ball to Cribbs.
OR
We take a project QB who played in a WCO for a whopping 19 games in a division that plays flag football defense.
It's either Blackmon...Claiborne...or a trade. Simple as that.
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Why would we draft a WR when we don't have a RB that ANYONE has to give a second thought to?
Just a note.... Even Obi had a 100 yrd game this year. Did any of our WRs?
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Quote:
Quote:
Why would we draft a WR when we don't have a RB that ANYONE has to give a second thought to?
Just a note.... Even Obi had a 100 yrd game this year. Did any of our WRs?
I'll add that Obi certainly did not hurt us when his number was called. He is not a particularly flashy back, but he does the little things well and he seems to be able to execute the plan without being a liability by missing his assignments.
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or we can create a CB tandem that will absolutely slow down the pass happy teams in the league.
It's either Blackmon...Claiborne...or a trade. Simple as that.
the More I've seen on Claiborne the less i like him... I think he is overrated.
he misses a ton of open field tackles and is much worse than Fall Down Sheldon Brown
He takes a lot of gambles and sometimes it pays off- that won't work in the NFL
I've seen him take a lot of bad angles and his speed kept him in it- that won't happen in the NFL
THere is no question in my mind that He is not Joe Haden.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Quote:
Quote:
Why would we draft a WR when we don't have a RB that ANYONE has to give a second thought to?
Just a note.... Even Obi had a 100 yrd game this year. Did any of our WRs?
little did, which brings me to a point...too many people aren't giving any value to his upside. If it takes time to develop receivers, we have to acknowledge the year he had and his upside.
Willie, I get ya. I just wanted to fight hyperbole with hyperbole. . By the way, you left out kalil. Think that'd be a mistake?
My point...again...is that there isn't a wrong answer with blackmon, Richardson, claiborne, or kalil.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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or we can create a CB tandem that will absolutely slow down the pass happy teams in the league.
It's either Blackmon...Claiborne...or a trade. Simple as that.
the More I've seen on Claiborne the less i like him... I think he is overrated.
he misses a ton of open field tackles and is much worse than Fall Down Sheldon Brown
He takes a lot of gambles and sometimes it pays off- that won't work in the NFL
I've seen him take a lot of bad angles and his speed kept him in it- that won't happen in the NFL
THere is no question in my mind that He is not Joe Haden.
I can see where someone may find Claiborne overrated...and maybe even Blackmon too.
However to me, I'd still take either guy waaaaaaaay before I take a RB at #4 overall.
Actually if I'm in charge, I don't even entertain a conversation about Richardson/any-RB or Tannehill at #4 overall.
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Willie, I get ya. I just wanted to fight hyperbole with hyperbole. . By the way, you left out kalil. Think that'd be a mistake?
My point...again...is that there isn't a wrong answer with blackmon, Richardson, claiborne, or kalil.
I will readily admit that I am decision-less (in a speech-less kind of way) about Kalil.
If he's there at #4, I'm looking for a king's ransom in a trade. I probably don't pick him to keep him, but I don't think it would be a mistake to do so. I have convinced myself that the Viks will take him and skip naked down the street while singing a happy tune. Hence my mental block on forming an opinion.
I can agree that there is no mistake to be made with the guys you listed as I think they will all be good-very good-great players...and I don't think it would be a mistake to trade down either if we get a deal like we did last year. (I just wouldn't take a RB or developmental QB there right now.)
I really want a stud WR to start...a highly-rated RT to start...and a CB that will legitimately compete to start this year...along with a new RB to round out Jackson and - hopefully because we need him to not because I expect him to - Hardesty.
Lastly - like you implied- I think Little makes a crazy leap in improvement this year. I think the guy is very talented. If we get a guy like Blackmon along with Little I think opposing CBs are not going to enjoy Sunday afternoons this fall because those guys will beat the snot out of most CBs.
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General reply:
In 2009, Steven Jackson ran for 1416 yards. (roughly 400 more yards than he ran for in his previous 2 season, but he was short of his career high of 15 yards)
In 2010 he ran for 1241 yards.
He also caught and passes while Shurmur was calling the plays.
I think that Shurmur can find a place in his offense for a premiere running back. Further, I think that he wants a great RB. It just seems like the Browns brain trust, despite Hillis running well the year before, was never convinced that he was the guy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Injuries and fumbles ... so, yeah, I can see that
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Quote:
General reply:
In 2009, Steven Jackson ran for 1416 yards. (roughly 400 more yards than he ran for in his previous 2 season, but he was short of his career high of 15 yards)
In 2010 he ran for 1241 yards.
He also caught and passes while Shurmur was calling the plays.
I think that Shurmur can find a place in his offense for a premiere running back. Further, I think that he wants a great RB. It just seems like the Browns brain trust, despite Hillis running well the year before, was never convinced that he was the guy.
Richardson is not worth a top 10 pick to a WCO team with Cribbs as its second best receiver.
I understand the value of a stud RB...WCO or not. However, tell me which WR(s) will be on our team next year?
We have a better chance that Hardesty will stay healthy than we do that Cribbs or MoMass will improve to legit, NFL WR status.
People who are so adamant about taking Richardson at #4 OVERALL seem to have forgotten who we threw the ball to last year and that Oniel Cousins is our current starting RT.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,550 |
Quote:
As much as I like the 2 car garage catch radius analogy ... I really like the comparisons with Plaxico Burress who is a full 4" taller yet has 2" less reach overall. but, but, but that just can't be
If we draft him we'll have to nickname him Magilla.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Quote:
As much as I like the 2 car garage catch radius analogy ... I really like the comparisons with Plaxico Burress who is a full 4" taller yet has 2" less reach overall. but, but, but that just can't be
If we draft him we'll have to nickname him Magilla.
Sounds good to me, but as much as I think he should be our pick ... I'm not holding my breath ... after all our FO thinks our current group of WR's are just fine  
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
As much as I love Blackmon, call it a gut feeling, but we're going to go Richardson.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,388
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,388 |
So many options to go in this draft. I think Richardson is an elite player and I don't consider Blackmon elite. Though because of Richardson's position, I knock him down in the rankings. Not sure if that is fair or not. As it sits right now, I'd take Claiborne.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
Ok, but who would you take between Blackmon and Richardson?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Quandry.......
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