DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Shurmur: Keeping Colt McCoy as starting QB

Quote:

---

Underthrow my rear..You are reaching man..it's sad. The throw was fine and if it was any other QB besides Colt you would agree.

---

Lol...you wrote it yourself 3 hours ago in this thread Mr. Weather Vane...I quote:
"McCoy gave him a chance with a good throw albeit a second late"

I listed Flacco and Ryan because they are considered franchise QBs by their team and have reached the POs more than once and Im pretty sure I stressed that there's a hierarchy in that list further proving my point that "the better the QB, the deeper you tend to go in the POs"..if you're trying to argue that Flacco isn't much better than Colt, then...

...thanks for reminding me why I usually skip your posts and resist the urge to answer...have a nice day

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Underthrow my rear..You are reaching man..it's sad. The throw was fine and if it was any other QB besides Colt you would agree.

---

Lol...you wrote it yourself 3 hours ago in this thread Mr. Weather Vane...I quote:
"McCoy gave him a chance with a good throw albeit a second late"

I listed Flacco and Ryan because they are considered franchise QBs by their team and have reached the POs more than once and Im pretty sure I stressed that there's a hierarchy in that list further proving my point that "the better the QB, the deeper you tend to go in the POs"..if you're trying to argue that Flacco isn't much better than Colt, then...

...thanks for reminding me why I usually skip your posts and resist the urge to answer...have a nice day

---

Yeah, the reason you skip them is because you can't handle the truth or you run out of made up fabricated or debunked theories to spew..Could have thrown it a second earlier and underthrown? Not the same thing but from looking at your lack of understanding what you are looking at I see how you wouldn't understand. The truth is I can actually look at a play unbiasedly and see that a second earlier would have been ideal..but he made a beautiful throw on the money and put us in a position to score going into half until the Moore facemask penalty..You on the other hand have obsessive compulsive tunnel vision because of your skewed vision of what it takes to be a QB and the elements around him..I really don't care if you read my posts or not..What are we 12 years old?

Quote:

---

You probably don't even remember anymore what that discussion was all about but I argued that he got himself knocked out on that play by holding on to the ball for too long and running unprotected out of the pocket..and yes, "running" out of it was unnecessary...cool QBs take steps to evade, not run around...it was a 3 man rush and after the guy was evaded there was no need to run at all...but he was in panic mode already then

---

Quote:

---

Yo, wazzup Vontaze...gimme more truth, but am not sure I can handle it

---

Yeah..I like Vontaze Burfict..Is someone throwing a temper tantrum? You crack me up. The difference between me and you is I can admit when I am wrong..You are never wrong in your mind even after it has been smacked in your forehead time after time by poster after poster..He was a top 10-15 pick a year ago and I love his game..I underestimated his work ethic and bad attitude. Oh well..can't win them all and I wouldn't doubt if he is the best MLB to come out of this draft..but the flags are justified. You just cry and go waaaah...once again the difference between me and you... Then you think you look cool posting things like this^.

Quote:

---

That was a nice throw,not perfect,but damned nice.
we were really bad at the RB position,no that's not I meant,horrendous,not even good college level bad.
Those young guards looked good.Get a RT in here,wow,a top flight o-line.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"not to lose" is not enough in this league

---

As many others have pointed out, this is what the 49ers did last season with Alex Smith. And they made the NFC Championship game. Strong run game, stronger defense, no turnovers.

---

Quote:

---

You probably don't even remember anymore what that discussion was all about but I argued that he got himself knocked out on that play by holding on to the ball for too long and running unprotected out of the pocket..

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Toad...question...how would you rate the "play of the supporting cast" the Browns provided for their QBs last season...

---

Quote:

---

Toad...last question...how would you rate the "play of the supporting cast" the Giants provided for Eli Manning last season...

---

I'm not going to legitimize that question with an answer, not when you're trying to compare McCoy to Manning.

The Browns tried to give up the future for a guy to replace McCoy. You've stated you trust the FO and will follow where they lead. Yet you're bucking that by banging the drum for McCoy.

---

Quote:

---

...because I'm a "fan"...a fan of the players...a fan of the coaches...a fan of the front office...I'm a Browns fan, unconditionally !

---

Quote:

---

...how can I possibly have it both ways...

---

Quote:

---

Thanks...I would like to meet the guy, though I doubt he has been to a game since the 70's when someone took him.

---

Quote:

---

You can spew the "fact" that Mangini inherited a 4-12 team all you want (he didn't inherit a 4-12 roster talent)...but LARGE SAMPLE fact is that the HCs BEFORE and AFTER Mangini had better records and more postseasons appearances (quantity and %).....and you complain about the Edwards pick and don't even discuss the WHOLE 09 draft failure?

Stop acting as if Mangini was some kind of misunderstood construction worker...he was a bad HC in NY and here...mainly because he has 0 talent evaluation skills and the people skills of a cockroach, he had paper-HC skills in his fantasy head but was a bad facilitator...he was a dazzler and talked a good game while doing the opposite all too often

Guys like you are the reason why I always said he should run a sect...he can sell with his words and your 1 of many who fell for it and still can't handle the letdown

---

Quote:

---

Name calling is not allowed here IIRC.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

No offense Toadie, but it's not a comparison of McCoy to Manning but the supporting cast around McCoy to that which was around Manning.

---

None taken, but you don't know the tricks Mac has pulled over the last decade.

He knew what he was doing.

---

Sure I do. I see Obama trying the same ones. But this is football, not politics.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

The media tried to force a team to give up their future for a prospect QB. You can agree or disagree on whether the prospect QB was worth it or not, but the media drove the hype.

---

While I fully believe the media and fan-base do have an effect on moves an organization can make, there's no way the media prompted Heckert to change his mind away from McCoy and to selling the farm for Griffin. They've spent too much time, effort, and money on scouts and film study to be duped like that.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

For me, I've always advocated surrounding McCoy with players with actual talent.

---

And I've always advocated that you can build a team first without addressing the QB when you are so void of talent at numerous positions.

---

This is one way to do it. However, remember that McCoy was drafted in the 3rd round and wasn't supposed to play for at least 1 year, perhaps 2. That's the reason they brought in Delhomme and paid him $7 million/yr and Wallace as his backup with McCoy as the #3 QB on the roster to hold the clipboard. That didn't work out well, but the plan was always to sit McCoy for at least a year.

Then he was thrust into the situation of starting and he hasn't lost that role since except due to his own injury. The problem is that they thought they'd give Robiskie and Massaquoi a shot to redeem themselves when they probably should have cut them lose. That was their mistake, keep them as long as they have (yeah, I know Massaquoi is still on the team).

Quote:

---

As for McCoy, the Browns may do just what you'd like them to do, but make no mistake about it. That move would be plan-B. Plan-A is going to the Foreskins.

---

There! Fixed it for you! I don't agree with you about what Plans A & B were, but I don't think you'll ever find Holmgren & Heckert admitting that it was Lerner pushing for the trade. It would probably cost them their jobs if they did so.

Quote:

---

What's your point? You happy with Colt? Then enjoy more Top 10 picks year in year out...he's a bad QB by pretty much any standard

This stupid debate started because you said he hit Little in stride, which he didn't...if he did, we probably win this game...that's what I said...did others lose that game? Sure, they did...I said that, I didn't say Colt lost it, I said he didn't WIN it...your QB is not disallowed to WIN it for you making your team overcome a Cribbs fumble etc...he makes this throw more accurately and we would have won that game...we will probably never see a blown deep coverage like that with 20sec to go from deep in our half (tells you a lot about how little they respect McCoy in this league...they didn't even care about the deep half with 20sec and 80yds to go, lol what an insult)...a play it safe underthrow get you 3p, a better throw in stride makes it 7....yeah, I get it...other QBs underthrow those too...sure but they also hit them in stride every now and then....that "now and then" is what's missing with Colt...I've never seen him throw someone open for a TD...mostly jump balls in single coverage is as good as it gets with Colt....and even of those he doesn't throw nearly enough of considering the number of 1on1s he has on the outside

not

to

lose

---

Quote:

---

No, not a sin at all.

It's just that we will be here next year talking about the same thing




He's going to get the "next" year, and then you'll agree with me

---

Quote:

---

Name calling is not allowed here IIRC.

---

Quote:

---

Then you need to meet us at a game this year Mac...we'd all like to meet you.....I know I would.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

No, not a sin at all.

It's just that we will be here next year talking about the same thing

He's going to get the "next" year, and then you'll agree with me

---

If he plays like did last year this year with improved talent around him, then yes, I will join the club that screams "New QB!" I believe the next guy would at least have a fighting chance with talent around him if Heckert doesn't screw this year's draft opportunities.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

...how can I possibly have it both ways...

---

Because the only time you ever take one side of an argument, is when it's the most asinine argument to take (IE: Bounties, Factory of Sadness)

Because any other time you can never even ANSWER A QUESTION.

I didn't know it was possible to be on a message board of a team you are a fan of, and still be a troll...

#dontfeedthetrolls

---

Quote:

---

this is the year for McCoy where it is all or nothing.. If he doesn't win atleast 8 games or put a lot of points out there on the field.. It's a wrap for Colt.

---

Quote:

---

You can say they need to surround McCoy with talent, but it seems all of the talented rosters reside on the teams with better Quarterbacks.

The Drew Brees' the Eli Manning's and the Aarron Rogers are making the talent around them look better, partly because maybe they make a play once in a while to keep a drive alive and keep that talent on the field 3 more snaps.

Qb's make the talent look better, not the other way around. The Qb has the ball in his hand almost every offensive snap.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Name calling is not allowed here IIRC.

---

all of those great points and this is what you have to call out?

---

Great "points"

Quote:

---

I never thought Mangini was the next Bill Walsh or Joe Gibbs.

---

Quote:

---

Name calling is not allowed here IIRC.

---

Quote:

---

You can say they need to surround McCoy with talent, but it seems all of the talented rosters reside on the teams with better Quarterbacks.

The Drew Brees' the Eli Manning's and the Aarron Rogers are making the talent around them look better, partly because maybe they make a play once in a while to keep a drive alive and keep that talent on the field 3 more snaps.

Qb's make the talent look better, not the other way around. The Qb has the ball in his hand almost every offensive snap.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I never thought Mangini was the next Bill Walsh or Joe Gibbs.

---

Then why do you keep defending him like he's the second coming of Vince Lombardi?

Mangini stunk as a coach. And he has the personality of a dust mite. If these things weren't true or he was anywhere close to as good as guys like you and Ytown think he'd have another coaching job by now. He doesn't.

Now, he may get another job in the NFL. I doubt it will be as a HC but you never know. But nobody should let him make the final decision on personnel. Butch Davis was a better GM than Mangini and that's saying a lot.

One last thing....EM was not " the only one willing to come here and take this gig on." Lerner had him hired almost before the ink was dry on the last coach's termination letter. Plus, he was unemployed so it's not like he was gonna say no if the job was offered. Let's not make the guy out to be a saint because he was willing to come to Cleveland. There are 32 NFL head coaching jobs. They are all coveted to some degree.

---

I'm not defending any coaches here like they were Vince Lombardi. I'm just understanding what they all inherited before jumping to conclusions. If you feel compelled to re-context what I'm saying so your side of debate can look a lot more pleasant using only half the truth then God bless ya! What were we accomplishing in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2008 before Mangini ruined all your fun?

The biggest gripes seem to be about Mangini's GM skills, which says what about the business owner who hired him without a GM in the house? Thanks for bringing up Butch Davis already failing in the dual role of Head Coach and Front Office. Seems to me the Lerner family should have learned from this experience already when clearly they didn't. This time it set us back 2 years when the front office hire had a completely different philosophy.

Did Mangini hire himself? It seems like you're assigning all your sour grapes to the wrong guy and making me the beneficiary. I'm glad I can do that for you. Have a great day!

Quote:

---

No, not a sin at all.

It's just that we will be here next year talking about the same thing




He's going to get the "next" year, and then you'll agree with me

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

You can say they need to surround McCoy with talent, but it seems all of the talented rosters reside on the teams with better Quarterbacks.

The Drew Brees' the Eli Manning's and the Aarron Rogers are making the talent around them look better, partly because maybe they make a play once in a while to keep a drive alive and keep that talent on the field 3 more snaps.

Qb's make the talent look better, not the other way around. The Qb has the ball in his hand almost every offensive snap.

---

So you're saying Terry Bradshaw, John Elway, Steve Young Troy Aikman and Drew Brees all should have been thrown out of the NFL when they were McCoy's age because they weren't making everyone around them better? I keep hearing QBs make the talent better but I witnessed Bill Polian surrounded a young Peyton Manning with the following first round draft picks: Marvin Harrison, Marshall Faulk, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Edge James, Anthony Gonzalez, etc. You didn't start seeing the Austin Collies and Pierre Garcon's come until Manning had a wealth of experience behind him. First off, how many young QBs would like to inherit Marshall Faulk and Marvin Harrison? Manning still only went 3-13 with 28 INTs so they had to go hot and heavy adding the weapons I listed. A RB with 4.28 forty speed can bury a blitz and prevent many sacks like Kurt Warner later pointed out about Faulk.

I also think we need to understand Drew Brees had a 67.5 passer rating with 11 TDs to 15 INTs in his 3rd season. The Chargers did so bad that year they earned the right to draft first the next year. Their GM selected a QB with that choice. The GM took the stance that Brees couldn't make everyone around him better. Marty argued back that the QB could make the people around him better if they were NFL material. The only player consistently looking good was Tomlinson. Very relevant to our ongoing debate. The QB we need to compare McCoy to in that one isn't a 32 years old Brees - it's the one that was once 21 starts old on a franchise like this one.

Rodgers is a nice example until you factor in how much different Green Bay was to Cleveland. Rodgers didn't get his first start until his 4th season on a team Favre recently had in the NFC Championship with the same playbook, same offense, and a lot of the same players. Pretty nice set up with continuity and chemistry already in tact.

Why do we suppose Holmgren was quick to announce McCoy wouldn't see the field as a rookie? Even worse, why did McCoy have to see the field as a rookie? Did anyone really miss the alternatives in walking boots. It's not like we've seen any QB winning with this roster of receivers. We have seen these receivers lead the league in dropped passes though. Do we use this information to upgrade the WRs or draft another Big 12 QB they are warning should not see the field as a rookie? If that QB has trouble identifying Safeties as they are saying on the NFL Channel - a division with Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu could be a recipe for disaster.

If all the hotshot first round QBs are making everyone around them better immediately - why are the teams with Sam Bradford, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Josh Freeman and Cam Newton all drafting in the top 9 this year? Even better, I think it's wonderful none of them need to add WRs or offensive talent while they have the right QB now.

---