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Yeah, keep telling that to yourself...Mack was lost the 1st half of last season and had all problems of his own to understand the Offense we were installing...he was FAR from helping ANYONE as he made more major blunders than the rooks in the 1st half...Mack is overrated and isn't as smart upstairs as some think he is as it was his 2nd season he struggled for GAMES with a new Offense..I expect a 1st round C to be the 1st to get it, not the last...I don't know how many times he blocked air last season while the rooks were fighting 1on1s next to him...it was there for evryone to see
That said, like in his rook season...when he finally learned to coordinate his brain and body he was an above AVG to good C and the OL as a whole improved with him...but I won't accept the BS that he "tutored" the rooks..that's BS..all 3 were on their own struggling and nobody helped each other...they didn't play like a unit..and when throwing around blame for that, I look at the vet 1st round C before I blame 2 1st time starting Gs
Too much OL assesment is made on "reputation" on fan boards...watch and re-watch the games and you'll get a more fair view of things...and I will dispute BS like that everytime it pops up around here
#gmstrong
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All of this is trying to explain that a great offense with great offensive coaches and a great quarterback make the o-line look a whole level better than they would otherwise look.
Throw...here we go again...it is not the QB who determines the level of play by an offensive line.
The offensive line determines the level of their own performance by completing their individual assignment on every play.
...if the Oline protects their QB, giving him the time needed to go through progressions and deliver a pass, chances are that QB will have a decent performance.
...if the Oline opens holes for their RBs, chances are those RBs will have a decent day.
I'm going to post this golden rule again, from my above post...read it...ok?
..."Improve the offensive line. The offensive line is the heart of a good offense. Without a sound offensive line all other aspects of the offense collapse. An offensive lineman needs a combination of size, speed, strength and, most importantly, intelligence. Regardless of how good the line play is, there is always room for improvement. Strengthening the offensive line play during the course of the season is a key for postseason success."
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If the offensive line does their job well, it gives the QB, RB, TE, WRs a chance to complete their assignment on each play.
...the offensive line cannot dictate how well the skilled position players perform. All the offensive line can do is give their QB the time required to complete his assignment or give a running back a hole to run through...if they do those two things, they have done their job.
"IT" STARTS WITH THE OFFENSIVE LINE !!!
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Yeah, keep telling that to yourself...Mack was lost the 1st half of last season and had all problems of his own to understand the Offense we were installing...he was FAR from helping ANYONE as he made more major blunders than the rooks in the 1st half...
DJ...do you honestly believe that our veteran offensive linemen did not tutor or try to help the rookie guards playing beside them?
As I pointed out, JT had Pinkston to his right while Mack had rookies on both sides of him. Do you really believe, having rookies on both sides of the center does not affect the performance of our center?
Also, keep this in mind...once defenses saw Pinkston and Lauvao at the OG spots, they made a point of testing them, especially in passing situations. Defense blitzed right over the center of the Browns Oline to see if Pinkston and Lauvao had the smarts to pickup the right man.
Defenses were highly successful at collapsing the center of the Browns offensive line...pushing the pocket back into the backfield. Defenses tested the Browns offensive line in every game, taking advantage of our weaknesses and Mack was caught in the middle.
Do understand this, I'm not claiming Mack played any better than the performance he turned in last season but there were "reasons" that his play was not as good as expected.
I know, Lauvao is a 2 yr guy, not really a rookie...but for the most part, he played like a rookie.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Yeah, keep telling that to yourself...Mack was lost the 1st half of last season and had all problems of his own to understand the Offense we were installing...he was FAR from helping ANYONE as he made more major blunders than the rooks in the 1st half...Mack is overrated and isn't as smart upstairs as some think he is as it was his 2nd season he struggled for GAMES with a new Offense..I expect a 1st round C to be the 1st to get it, not the last...I don't know how many times he blocked air last season while the rooks were fighting 1on1s next to him...it was there for evryone to see
You keep saying this, but you're still wrong. You obviously don't have any clue what you were looking at.
In pass protection, each lineman has to stay in his lane. The idea is to pass attackers off to your linemates as they move laterally one way or another. Lines get in trouble when guys "chase" defenders and get themselves out of position. Our young guards did that WAY too often last year (particularly early on). So when you saw Mack "blocking air" he was really doing his job and maintaining lane integrity. When the Pinkston and Lavaou started to "get it" it later in the year the whole middle of the OL was more organized in pass protection and things got better.
Mack is as solid as they come at center in this league. He struggled at first because he got thrown in the deep end of the pool before he was ready. However, he picked it up quickly and has been solid ever since. Discontinuity along the line can make Pro-Bowl lineman look bad. If these guys stay healthy and have time to gel a little more, we won't be talking about the OL as part of the problem offensively.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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That said, like in his rook season...when he finally learned to coordinate his brain and body he was an above AVG to good C and the OL as a whole improved with him...but I won't accept the BS that he "tutored" the rooks..that's BS..all 3 were on their own struggling and nobody helped each other...they didn't play like a unit..and when throwing around blame for that, I look at the vet 1st round C before I blame 2 1st time starting Gs
I think this year the inner 3 will mold tighter in this system. Having a dedicated o-coordinator in Chillie will help the offense as a whole, even if Shurmur is too stubborn to relinquish his offensive calling duties. Once we establish that RT, we have the potential to be as good as where we were in 2007 when we had Thomas, Steinbach, Fraley, Tucker, and Shaffer only younger. Many regarded that line to be one of the top in the league in 2007. Bottom line, we need to let this group mold together. Once we get that RT established, we can develop future late rounders for depth. That's why you have O-Lines that perform consistently in New England and Pittsburgh with easy turnover when they lose players to retirement or free agency. I think one thing all dawgtalkers can agree on is that changing regimes every 3-4 years has held back this entire team from molding together and growing together. 
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I know what I saw...I saw DLs attacking our weakness going 1on1 for the Gs and Mack looking clueless left and right blocking air...I reviewed almost every game and he did this A LOT early on and never saw him do it again later in the season...it'S not that he was zone blocking, I know how that looks like...he just was unsure what to do and somewhat froze up...if it was zone blocking he looked bad at it too..as you don't have to block air for 3+ seconds if there isn't a delayed blitz coming and your Gs are already holding the DL...footwork and head movement were a mess if those were indeed zone plays...I also saw him whiff and having trouble with stunts, which is all mental/preparation and I expect Mack to be the leader in that...if someone said to me of those 3 interior guys 1 is supposed to be a PBowler and 2 are rooks/1st time starters I would not have been able to tell who is who as they looked all like overwhelmed rooks at the start of the season
on top of that: did you remember the whiffs blocking in the kicking game? He was a mess early on
Maybe we changed our blocking schemes? Mack never was a fit in any form of zone scheme..he was drafted by Mangini, remember? a man blocking mauler type...I still think we would be better off moving him to G and draft a heady, more swift undersized WCO C (cost is only a day 3 pick or even UDFA)
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I know what you saw too. You just don't understand what you're looking at.  Zone blocking is a run blocking scheme. It has nothing to do with pass protection. Pass protections are a different call altogether, but they aren't that much different from team-to-team. They all involve placing lineman in lanes of responsibility. When everybody does their job and maintains lane integrity, even linemen of average quality can keep the pocket intact for a decent amount of time. We saw a lot more of that once our guards got more reps with Mack. Nobody's perfect and, at this level, even guys like Joe Thomas will make a mistake and get beat once in a while. However, I review every game as well (with an emphasis on the OL because I'm just a geek in that way). Mack wasn't confused or lost nearly as much you claim he was. Our guards were struggling mightily and chasing guys all over the place early on in pass protection. THAT'S what you were really seeing and, incorrectly, ascribing it to Mack's play.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Legend
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Quote:
on top of that: did you remember the whiffs blocking in the kicking game? He was a mess early on
he completely screwed up on 1 kick blocking assignment when he was rushed into the FG protection (in-game) unit when Lauvao was getting bullrushed backwards.
and he stuck his foot too far back against the Rams.
Those are the only 2 times I remember seeing Mack screw up blocking in the kicking game.
---------------------------
the early season struggles are correct (and I like Mack). It's his job as center to make the calls and having 2 virtual-rookies on either side doesn't help, but it's still his job.
he did seem to get it corrected after the first few games.
#gmstrong
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Rookie
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I like the value that the dancing bear gives at #37, but still Cordy Glenn is my favorite RT candidate if he does last to #22.
if we get either I'll be 
I thought I heard on the Fan last night that the Browns had Cordy Glenn come in for a work out/interview. Kids were screaming so maybe I heard it wrong. Anyone hear anything about this? If so, I like they are looking hard at this guy. 
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Legend
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Glenn was one of the guys we brought in for a private interview
#gmstrong
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Glenn was one of the guys we brought in for a private interview
Thanks
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when he finally learned to coordinate his brain and body he was an above AVG to good C and the OL as a whole improved with him...
I thought "good" was the next step beyond "above average" but hey, what do I know. 
Just to waste my two-cents here, I still believe Thomas is the best LT in football and has been for several years, even if he isn't as good as guys like Pace and Jones were. I believe Mack has become one of the better centers in the league, and a guy that all 32 teams would be pleased to have no their roster. But beyond that, I think we are woefully lacking at the other three positions. I'm going to be very sad if we go into the season having only upgraded one of the three remaining positions with a high draft pick.
It's ugly for me...I see the best center/left tackle combo in the league, but the worst two guards/RT combo in the league.
Will Pinky and Lav get better? They kinda have to, don't they...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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What do you consider a high draft pick when it comes to the guards?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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You can get starting rookie guards in the 2nd round. I'd expect a 3rd rounder to be a starter in his 2nd season. Anything from the 4th and lower isn't a high pick to me even if we're talking about guards.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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Something like:
1a Trent Richardson
1b Cordy Glenn
2 lavonte David
3 Brandon Brooks
4a Greg Childs
4b Ron Brooks
5a Jarius Wright
Would probably get your attention, then, eh?
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Legend
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Quote:
It's ugly for me...I see the best center/left tackle combo in the league, but the worst two guards/RT combo in the league.
So how long have you been seeing things that don't exist?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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You can't invest 5x Top 75 picks for the OL..that's not how you build a competitive team...we're already missing playmakers on O and game changers on D because we took Thomas and Mack high....sure, we can take the best RT at 22 and a top G at 37...we will have a kick a$$ OL but nobody to take advantage of it because we still have a QB throwing no further than he can see and no speed at the skill positions
SB winning Giants had 1 of the worst graded starting OL at LT in Diehl and they still won it all...you think that has something to do with Eli, Nicks and Cruz?
#gmstrong
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Our O-line needs help....But it's not from the players that work the line, Yes we need a RT and we could use another guard, but really thats it...What we need is a RB that can hit the holes Quick, I mean within 3 seconds of getting the ball, O-lineman should only have to hold thier blocks....or just plain Hold the defence for 2-3 seconds not 4-5 like last year while Hillis pattie caked around the backfiled or Hardesty ran back n forth looking for the perfect hole to duck his head and stumble thru....And on passing plays they should only have to pass block for 4-5 seconds they shouldnt have to block for 8-10 seconds while our WR figure out if there open or not, or while Massique tip toes down the field, Our O-line is a darn good unit, I'd take them anyday, is there a couple holes and room for improvement...Heck ya but for what there asked to do and without any help and having to hold blocks twice as long as the average O-lineman, I'd say were pretty luck to have the likes of Thomas , Mack, Pinkston is young and learning, lauvello well we will see but at any rate is a soilded back-up, We need to draft a RT early and pick up another guard late in the draft or snag up a FA at some point but other than that, we have a dam good line and I'd stick them up against the best once we add a few pieces around them.
PS If it was up to me, we'd draft a Olineman in the 1st or 2nd round every year, it dosent matter who my RB is if my Lineman puts all your players on thier behinds.....
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Quote:
You can't invest 5x Top 75 picks for the OL..that's not how you build a competitive team...we're already missing playmakers on O and game changers on D because we took Thomas and Mack high....sure, we can take the best RT at 22 and a top G at 37...we will have a kick a$$ OL but nobody to take advantage of it because we still have a QB throwing no further than he can see and no speed at the skill positions
dj...why can't a team invest 5 top 75 picks in their Oline?
I explained earlier...there are two ways to build an offensive line...develop them...and buy them via draft and free agency. The Browns have settled on building their Oline via the draft.
To build an offensive line via the draft, you do exactly what the Browns have done...start with a franchise LT, add a center, then a guard the next season then a RT.
The Browns get their LT in 2007, then wait two years to add a center in 2009...and take an OG in the 3rd round in 2010, but Lauvao has yet to prove that he was worthy of being picked that high.
Then in the 2011 draft, Heckert waits until the 5th round to add Oline talent, bypassing the top Oline talent in the draft. Pinkston, who was rated the 13th best OT, was drafted to compete with Pashos at RT.
Pinkston played his entire college career at OT starting 3 seasons at LT for the Pitt Panthers. Pinkston was not drafted to be an OG, but due to the fact that the Browns depth for the Oline was so poor, the Browns decided to use their rookie OT, Pinkston, at OG.
Those who contend that Pinkston did a great job at OG are wrong..he was the weakest link on the Browns offensive line and teams exploited him and Lauvao the entire season.
The Oline the Browns have built via the draft is a below average performing group with one of the best LTs in the game. Don't judge Alex Mack by the year he had last season because he had two guards playing like rookies.
Heckert is praying that Pinkston and Lauvao greatly improve their play in the upcoming season. If they don't, the Oline Heckert built might be considered a failure.
Heckert still has to complete the OLine build by drafting an RT...OR drafting an OG and moving Pinkston to RT, his normal position in college.
DJ...let's not act like drafting a Olineman in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd round destroys any chances for the Browns to add to their skilled positions. The heavy lifting was already done for Heckert when he took over...using 1st round picks to draft a LT and Center.
Heckert only used a 3rd and 5th round picks to add to the Oline, so stop acting like the Browns have over committed to the Oline...they haven't.
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SB winning Giants had 1 of the worst graded starting OL at LT in Diehl and they still won it all...you think that has something to do with Eli, Nicks and Cruz?
DJ...the Giants Oline improved the level of their play when it counted. They brought in Baas at center, replacing O'Hara. As an offensive line unit, this group played very well when it counted most...in the playoffs.
David Diehl-LT...5th in 2003
Kevin Boothe-LG...6th in 2006-Raiders
David Baas-C...2nd in 2005-SF
Chris Snee-RG..2nd (#34) in 2004
Kareem McKenzie-RT...3rd in 2001- NYJ
DJ..I'm going to continue to say this...your skilled position players will not play to their full potential if the Offensive line does not protect the QB and run block for the RBs.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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CleveSteve...Yes, yes it would. Although if I'm being a whiny guy and demand having the draft go exactly as I want it to go, it might drift a little from there, but that would be promising.
GM: How long have I been seeing things that don't exist? I see a handsome man in the mirror everyday, so....everyday? 
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You can't invest 5x Top 75 picks for the OL..that's not how you build a competitive team...we're already missing playmakers on O and game changers on D because we took Thomas and Mack high....sure, we can take the best RT at 22 and a top G at 37...we will have a kick a$$ OL but nobody to take advantage of it because we still have a QB throwing no further than he can see and no speed at the skill positions
SB winning Giants had 1 of the worst graded starting OL at LT in Diehl and they still won it all...you think that has something to do with Eli, Nicks and Cruz?
It's an interesting debate.
Sure, we know that building a team is very-much like building a diverse investment portfolio...you make a huge risk if you put all your eggs in one basket, which of course means you can't invest all your 1st rounders into one unit.
Or can you. 
Sure, the Giants won it all. They prove you can overcome some weaknesses with a great QB. But they also had a dominant defensive front-4.
However, I could use the Niners as an example of how building an elite offensive line makes for a championship team, and they did it like this:
Anthony Davis: 1st round
Mike Iupati: 1st round
Joe Staley: 1st round
Goodwin: 5th round
Snyder: 3rd round
So the case can be made that building the offensive line through high draft picks can work. The Niners were a couple of muffed punts from the big game because of defense and a dominant running game, in spite of having Alex Smith as their QB.
The rebuild isn't a one-year fix. We're going to have to invest 1st and 2nd rounders in virtually every unit to become a contender. I can make a case of spending two of our top-3 round selections on a guard and a tackle.
Having said that, I'm just discussing it. I'm not advocating it. I believe we have to acquire at least one skill position guy along with some offensive line help. There's any number of combinations of skill and offensive line players that would make sense.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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in support: the Giants also lost 4 games in a row, 2 to the Redskins and had to win out just to get invited to the playoffs.
that is why I think it's ridiculous to just look at the team that happened to win the Superbowl. I want to build a team that is consistently competitive knowing that you need as many cracks at the postseason as possible and a Superbowl can come.
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I believe everyone can agree, the Browns offensive line needs to raise their level of play, as individuals, but especially as a unit. We have focused on the individual players performances in 2011, but so far we have ignored an important part of the Oline...the Oline coach.
George Warhop has been the Browns Oline coach since 2009 and has been a Oline coach at the Pro level since 1996.
Here is a list of Warhop's NFL record...
..the year and team...followed by where the offense ranked in points scored and total yardage.
yr..team...offensive ranking...pts.......yds...
96 Rams............................ 20.........27...
97.......................................23.........21...
98 Cards............................15..........13...
99 .....................................30..........29...
00......................................29..........24...
01......................................20..........18...
02......................................29..........27...
03 Cowboys........................21..........15...
04......................................25..........14...
05 SF 49ers........................30..........32...
06......................................24..........26...
07......................................32..........32...
08......................................22..........23...
09 Browns..........................29..........32...
10......................................31..........29...
11......................................30..........29...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Looking at the production levels of each offensive unit, with the understanding that points scored and total yardage are just two basic measures of offensive performance, I still find these numbers troubling.
The offensive line is the engine of the offense because they are responsible for protecting and providing enough time for the QB to pass the football AND, the Oline's run blocking is directly tied to the performance of a running back.
What concerns me are the "trends"...
...minimal improvement in each teams production in pts and yardage
Warhop coached the Rams in 96 and 97 and their offense improved some in yardage but declined in points scored.
In 1998, Warhop took over a Cardinals offensive line that helped their offense to a #15 ranking in pts scored and a #13 record in total yardage.
In 99, the Cards offense declined to a #30 ranking in pts scored and a #29 record in total yardage.
In 2000, the Cards showed some improvement in total yardage with a ranking of 24 in the NFL.
In 2001, the Cards offense did show improvement in both points and yardage, ranking 20 and 18 respectively.
But in 2002, the Cards offense declined, ranking 29th in points scored and 27th in yardage.
In 2003, Warhop was hired to coach the Cowboys offensive line. The Cowboys ranked 21st in pts scored and 15th in total yardage. The following year, the offensive production declined in points scored ranking 25th and 14th in total yards.
In 2005, Warhop was hired to coach the SF 49ers Oline which helped the offense to a ranking of 30th in pts scored and 32nd in total yds.
In 2006, the offense improved to 24th and 26th in pts scored and total yardage.
In 2007, the 49er offense ranked 32nd in both pts scored and total yardage.
In 2008, the 49er offense improved to 22 in pts scored and 23 in total yardage.
In 2009, Warhop was hired by the Browns and the offense ranked 29th in pts scored and 32nd in total yards.
In 2010, the Browns offense ranked 31 in pts scored and 29th in total yardage.
In 2011, the Browns offense ranked 30th in pts scored and 29th in total yardage.
....................................................................................................
Before anyone starts yelling that the offensive line is not responsible for total pts and total yardage...I'm not claiming the Oline is fully responsible...BUT, they do "play a part" and whatever percentage you want to assign as to how much of a part the Oline plays...33%, 50%, 60%...etc...what I want to focus on are the "trends".
Before someone starts yelling, well look at the QB the Browns had playing
Warhop has never developed a top offensive line since he started coaching the NFL in 1996.
If the Browns offensive line does not improve this season, it may very well be his last with the Browns.
More to come later...
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1. I'm an inside-out guy myself...but you gotta have balance...right now, we have invested enough into the OL high that we have to find value in FA, and mid/late rounds for the lesser value positions (G)...and I'd be ok to invest 22 or 37 in a RT this draft because of need and value..that'd mean we have 3 top 50 guys invested in OL, that's already WAY above AVG...Gs don't have that kind of value, they just have to hold their own and stand in the way for the most part...you remember all those "stud" Gs the Colts let go in FA? Those that busted everywhere else where the QB was crap? G are mostly failed OTs or not so smart Cs...you really just need a body with some strength that has a mean streak and is consistent...it doesn't have to be dominant
2. I've debunked the "SF have a good OL" story multiple times..I don't feel like going there again...Davis is/was a huge bust...overall they are a pretty good run blocking OL but bottom 3rd pass blocking...for having invested so many high picks they have actually UNDER-achieved...they're not a good example for anything...the 9ers won with Defense, Defense, then again some Defense and running...and decent coaching to strength...their Offense was "not to lose" to the core
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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San Francisco's line sucks at pass blocking, especially considering how little they throw the ball.
The Browns threw the ball a total of 570 times last year. The Niners threw the ball 451 times last year. (2nd last in the league to Denver)
The Niners saw their QB sacked 44 times and hit 82 times.Talk about a bad QB/OL combination.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'd be happy to take a middle-of-the-road approach. I think we take a RT high-ish because we know we need a guarantee at that position (I think the FO tipped their hand that they're finally going to address the position when they released Pashos). If we take a RT high, then I think we take some flyers on a guard or two in the late late rounds.
I don't think our guards need to be replaced. Pinky just needs a little time since he showed some nice improvement last season. Lava needed to show more, but he also needs to have some competence on his right side.
So, we address the RT spot with a relatively high pick, and then wait and see what kind of unit can gel together.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Just kinda clicking
We have a solid LT and Center. We have essentially second year guys at both guards spots that had moments where they made great plays and made bad plays if you don't expect that of some young guys, then your expectations are out of whack.. I expect them both to improve.. Put a solid young RT (who will, without a doubt, make some blunders) on this team and before seasons end, we'll have one of the top Olines.
(injuries aside of course)
The problem as I see it is that there seems to be a group of guys that only remember the bad, never the good and will refuse to take into consideration that young guys will blow it at times. it's just gonna happen.. period. But they see the mistakes, think its the norm and from that point on, those guys were no good and can't improve.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I expect them both to improve..
I think that both of our young guards showed significant improvement as the season progressed. I expect significant off season strides as well.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Quote:
Quote:
I expect them both to improve..
I think that both of our young guards showed significant improvement as the season progressed. I expect significant off season strides as well.
A year in the system, and off season to prepare, a year more experience,, there really isn't' any reason to believe they won't improve.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think that is the smart approach.
Great players are not always terrible just because they were drafted later, just like the cliche goes, it's not where you take the player it is the player you take.
I think they can find great players in the later rounds.
Atyba Rubin and Josh Cribbs are two of the most reliable players on the team. Rubin was a later round pick and Cribbs was undrafted.
And as always, If you get an offense that threatens the whole field, the offensive line play will look so much better.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Legend
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GM: How long have I been seeing things that don't exist? I see a handsome man in the mirror everyday, so....everyday?
Geez all I ever see in my mirror is a old, fat, ugly guy 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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After looking at the offensive production of teams where George Warhop coached the offensive line...let's look at the record of another offensive line coach...Alex Gibbs.
Alex Gibbs was one of the best offensive line coaches in Pro Football, starting his NFL career in 1984 after coaching 15 yrs at the college level.
These stats are the same as those for Warhop, measuring the offensive production in points scored and total yardage of teams where Alex Gibbs coaches their offensive line.
...one addition to the stats for Gibbs..I added the year before Gibbs arrived as Oline coach to show whether teams improved in points scored and total yardage.
yr..team...offensive ranking...pts.......yds...
83 Broncos..........................21........26...rank year before Gibbs arrived
84 Broncos..........................11........22...
85........................................8.........10...
86........................................6.........15...
87........................................4..........2...
87 Raiders...........................17.........7...rank year before Gibbs arrived
88 Raiders...........................16........19...
89.......................................18........19...
89 Chargers.........................23........21...rank year before Gibbs arrived
90 Chargers.........................17........15....
91.......................................21........13...
91 Colts...............................28........28...rank year before Gibbs arrived
92 Colts...............................26........24...
92 Chiefs..............................7.........25...rank year before Gibbs arrived
93 Chiefs..............................8.........16...
94.......................................14..........5...
94 Broncos.......................10..........6...rank year before Gibbs arrived
95 Broncos..........................9..........3...
96.......................................4...........1...
97.......................................1...........1...
98.......................................2...........3...
99......................................18.........14...
00........................................2..........2...
01......................................10.........22...
02.......................................7...........3...
03......................................10..........7...
03 Falcons..........................20.........29...rank year before Gibbs arrived
04 Falcons..........................16.........20...
05.............consultant...........14.........12...
06.................."....................25.........12...
07 Texans............................12.........14...rank year before Gibbs arrived
08 Texans............................17..........3...
09........................................10..........4...
09 Seahawks........................25..........21...rank year before Gibbs arrived
10 Seahawks........................23..........28...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want the Browns offensive line to be known as one of the very best in the NFL, comparable to the Saints offensive line. If the Browns offensive line coach is not up to the task, I'm all for finding someone who is.
Warhop's record over his 16 yr career in the NFL is a reflection on his ability, IMO. I'm not convinced Warhop is the caliber of offensive line coach, capable of developing young talent into a top functioning unit.
Barring injuries, Warhop's Oline will have ...
...LT-first round selection-maybe the best LT in football.
...LG-a fifth round pick, who needs coaching if he is to develop into a top Olineman.
...Center-1st round pick, but has room improve with good coaching
...RG-3rd round pick in 2010
...RT-???
A coach is a teacher...the Browns are about to find out what kind of teacher they have as Offensive Line coach.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Even though Drew Brees is one of the best players in the NFL, the New Orleans Saints’ offensive line has been the reason for their seven-game winning streak.
With all the Pro Bowl snubs that took place, it’s nice to see the Saints’ offensive line get the credit they deserve. Three out of the Saints’ five starting offensive linemen made the Pro Bowl with Carl Nicks, Jahri Evans and Jermon Bushrod getting the honors.
Brees may be a future NFL Hall of Fame quarterback, but he wouldn’t be able to do half of what he does without the protection by the big fellas on the line. They give Brees time in the pocket, and that time allows his receivers to get open down the field and Brees takes it from there.
Not only is the offensive line responsible for allowing this passing game to be so effective, but they’ve shown strength in the rushing game as well.
Interesting you bring that up about the Saints being particularly strong at OG-C-OG. They were very impressive. Mike Mayock brought up the playoff game where the Saints got upset vrs Seattle a couple years ago. He said Seattle surprisingly thought they matched up well inside and centered their defensive game plan around getting an inside push. He concluded Seattle's inside push completely disrupted Brees' short passing game. It was calculated and Brees never got comfortable that day because of it. If a Qb is only 6' tall and his olinemen are getting pushed back into him - you 60 minutes to solve it. Brees did not on that day.
Relating this to our world in 2011, growing pains at offensive guard were troublesome for a short passing game predicated on timing. If the inexperienced OGs are getting ragdolled back into the QB - well, we're not stepping into nearly as many throws as we would like to. That improved somewhat as the year went on though. I have a better feeling about Pinkston than I do Lauvao. This wasn't Lauvao's first year here working with oline coach George Warhop. He looked more lost than Pinkston as the year progressed.
I can deal with seeing a player beat physically especially when I sense he gave it his all. Where I grow impatient is when I see controllable mental errors that get repeated. This was Lauvao's 2nd year so when he's hitting guys after the whistle in front of the ref after we completed a first down pass - all I can say is Really? Here's another scenario and just imagine if it was a dream QB like Brady or Manning when it went down: Troy Polamalu walked up to Lauvao's inside gap while Casey Hampton was lined up over Mack's left shoulder. Seneca Wallace took the snap, Polly went untouched/unacknowledged. The athleticism of Wallace avoided initial contact with Polly but the blitzing Safety never gave up to run Wallace outside of the pocket for a throwaway. High school linemen know the #1 rule is you never disregard your inside gap UNLESS the play is designed for you to pull or trap elsewhere. It looked like we had a pass play setup and film study had someone extremely well prepared with how to blow it up in the perfect place. I know everybody makes mistakes; but if you sleep at the wheel just once - innocent people can get hurt and there are no do-overs.
I think it would be a good idea to draft an OG in one of the late rounds. Film doesn't lie to our upcoming opponents. That's why Polly knew exactly what spot to exploit and he wasn't disappointed. If we ever get the QB everyone wants here - I'm not sure Lauvao is going to protect this QB any better than Sadaam Hussein's 70 year old Security Guards protected their leader. That OG-Center gap on the right side is too close for comfort today. Hopefully this is just a case of Blowhard 101 on my part. Wouldn't be the first time. Having said that, an easy solution is to use one of the 4 new compensation picks on an OG to compete and make a position stronger.
Last edited by Ottomatic Flugel; 04/14/12 09:49 AM.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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1983 was Elway's 1st year.
Other then that, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove, other than football is sometimes a game of ups and downs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Practice Squad
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1. I'm an inside-out guy myself...but you gotta have balance...right now, we have invested enough into the OL high that we have to find value in FA, and mid/late rounds for the lesser value positions (G)...and I'd be ok to invest 22 or 37 in a RT this draft because of need and value..that'd mean we have 3 top 50 guys invested in OL, that's already WAY above AVG...Gs don't have that kind of value, they just have to hold their own and stand in the way for the most part...you remember all those "stud" Gs the Colts let go in FA? Those that busted everywhere else where the QB was crap? G are mostly failed OTs or not so smart Cs...you really just need a body with some strength that has a mean streak and is consistent...it doesn't have to be dominant
2. I've debunked the "SF have a good OL" story multiple times..I don't feel like going there again...Davis is/was a huge bust...overall they are a pretty good run blocking OL but bottom 3rd pass blocking...for having invested so many high picks they have actually UNDER-achieved...they're not a good example for anything...the 9ers won with Defense, Defense, then again some Defense and running...and decent coaching to strength...their Offense was "not to lose" to the core
Point #1 above is really good. I think you can draft a good OG late.
Point #2. Stats can do some tricky things. If a QB doesn't see the field good enough at the speed of the game, he takes a lot of sacks. Alex has always had a lot of sacks accompanied by a lot of interceptions. The sacks DID increase to 44 in 2011 so you'll be able to cling to that conclusion you're confident and cozy with. Having said that, who here saw all their games to tell if it was pass blockers getting overwhelmed or Alex continuing to hold onto the ball too long? When Charlie Frye continued holding onto the ball too long in the opener of 2007, it made our oline look overwhelmed in pass protection. Hence, DA gets the next start and all of a sudden we've got a pretty impressive group of pass protectors? No, we had a QB getting the ball out of his hands quicker so the task of protecting the passer became much more reasonable.
Today Alex has a former QB coaching him up with "let's deep 6 INTs this year even if it means taking a sack to live another down or flip field position with a punt next down." Alex only threw 5 INTs in 2011 and had the best passer ratings of his career so we can't exactly flush that down the toilet if we want to use all the information instead of convenient information. SF was in overtime of the NFC Championship where the game winning points came at the expense of a backup punt returner's fumble in chip shot FG range for the opponent. That doesn't exactly sell me their oline was getting overwhelmed. I also noticed when Alex took off for a long TD sprint in the playoffs that oline saw to it he was untouched and well shielded.
I got the impression Harbaugh knew Mike Martz couldn't change the speed at which Alex processes/reads so Harbaugh changed what was changeable. This year, they will draft a talented WR to line up on the opposite side of formation to Crabtree or they'll flood one side so everyone is in the vision of 1 read.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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1983 was Elway's 1st year.
Other then that, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove, other than football is sometimes a game of ups and downs.
YT...who was the Broncos' QB after Elway retired?
Alex Gibbs continued to coach the Bronco's offensive line after Elway left and the Bronco's offensive line continued to be the key to the Broncos' offensive performance.
Compare the offensive performance of those teams where Warhop was the Oline coach to the offensive performances of those teams where Alex Gibbs coached...see any difference?
Do position coaches, such as Oline coach, play any part in the performance of a team's offense?
Alex Gibbs was considered one of the elite Oline coaches in the NFL and he played a major part in the Broncos offensive success.
There are reasons for poor offensive performance that have little to do with who is playing QB.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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They had Elway until 1998, then Brian Griese until 2002.
While Griese was never what he was expected to be, he was a competent QB. (for the time) He could just never play a complete season.
The Raiders were about the same when he got there as when he left. Actually they were better the year before he got there.
The Chargers appear to have improved marginally.
The Colts were about the same.
The Chefs got better, and worse.
The Broncos went up and down.
However ..... 2 things that you don't take into account basing your life off of stats alone, is what players did teams have, and for how long ........ and who did these teams play in each given year?
The Browns, playing 3 very good defensive teams in division, could have a better OL than another team outside our division, yet show up as worse based on stats alone.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yeah, he's not looking at personnell. Someone drafted better in one place than they did at another.. But Mac doesn't appear to think that's important.
he is right about one thing,, Put a great QB on a crappy team, they still won't be all that great.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Put a great QB on a crappy team and they improve greatly though. It may not be the first year, but a QB jump starts a team's improvement more than any other position.
We always hear Franchise QB, LT, Cover CB, and Pass Rusher as the 4 keys to a successful NFL team.
We have one of the best LT in the business in Joe Thomas.
We have a very solid, up and coming cover CB in Joe Haden.
We have a very good, up and coming pass rusher in Jabaal Sheard.
What are we missing?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We need a Tackle and 2 Guards. JMHO
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Quote:
Put a great QB on a crappy team and they improve greatly though. It may not be the first year, but a QB jump starts a team's improvement more than any other position.
We always hear Franchise QB, LT, Cover CB, and Pass Rusher as the 4 keys to a successful NFL team.
We have one of the best LT in the business in Joe Thomas.
We have a very solid, up and coming cover CB in Joe Haden.
We have a very good, up and coming pass rusher in Jabaal Sheard.
What are we missing?
Oh Freakin stop already.. Payton Manning, who I'm sure we can agree, has been an Elite QB almost from day one., Put crap around him and you get wht you got his first year in the league.
Troy Aikman, who again, I think we can agree, was an Elite QB.. When he had crap around him, his teams sucked.
You GOTTA HAVE MORE than an elite QB and you CAN with without an ELITE QB. But having an Elite QB does not guarantee success.. and telling me that we'd improve... Great.. 4 wins to 5 wins or maybe 6 (and I think that's really freakin pushing it) that's not wiinning.. thats winning more, but that's not winning
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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