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What part of "a plan should have markers and guidelines to show that it is on track" don't you understand?
I have rebuilt businesses before. It is OK to show some regression early on, if it's part of the plan. However, in a situation like this, 3 drafts and 3 years in, they better show considerable improvement over the crap we saw on the field last year.
On a 5 year plan, I would guess that it should go:
Year 1: Establish the program, and evaluate the talent base while adding players through draft and free agency.
Year 2: Improve the talent base, improve the individual units production, meet guideposts, and
start to compete on a weekly basis.
Year 3: Compete on a weekly basis, showing constant and continuous improvement. Establish a .500 team at minimum, and a team that improves as the year progresses. The team should be a solid team by the end of the year, and a team that wins some games it "shouldn't".
Year 4: Establish a winning record, compete for the playoffs
Year 5: Make the playoffs, prepared to go deep. This should be a team capable of challenging for the Super Bowl.
Now Holmgren decided to ignore year 1 by retaining Mangini. He did not want to throw his hand picked coach into a meat grinder of a schedule, so he took the easy way out and kept Mangini, and then tossed him overboard at the end of a brutal year with a QB trio of Delhomme, Wallace, and McCoy. Now that was his right ..... but he doesn't get a mulligan because he decided to keep the incumbent coach for a year "to be nice". He gets paid to establish a winning program, not to make friends.
Speaking of rumors, there were rumors that Mangini did not feel that McCoy was a capable QB at the NFL level, and wanted to find a new QB at all costs for 2011, and this was part of the reason he was not retained.
Anyway, this is year 3 of the program, and this team should be a team ready to win as many games as it loses. This team should get better as the year progresses. If this team regresses, (though how it could on offense is a horror beyond comprehension) then there will be, and should be, hard questions. This team will have 30+ players brought in by the current regime, even without great activity in free agency. By the end of this year the QB damn well should be identified and established. If it's going to take a new guy 2-3 years just to get the system down, then this regime will be out of time by then.
So will Holmgren.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I have yet to see any evidence that Lerner had anything to do with the RG3 acquisition.
I do recall Holmgren was responsible for the McCoy acquisition. Perhaps he also was the one going after RG3. I've yet to see anyone explain the thought process behind the attempt.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/08/did-lerner-instruct-holmgren-to-get-rg3/
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I have to be honest Anarchy.. I'm not convinced that McCoy is the answer either. What I do believe is that we don't know because of the tools and weapons around him.
Put those things in place, see if he's the got "IT" or not, if he does,, Terrific.. if not, the next QB is set up to succeed because of his supporting cast.. Or at least the supporting cast won't be a reason to have failed.
Now, where have we seen this before...OH YEAH... Pittsburgh with big Ben... He had a solid line, good receivers, a RB that ran over people, a system in place for years, and a defense that was just KILLER.
We could say the same for Flacco in BallsNoMore.
Sad truth is that a good portion of Browns fandom is always out for a scalp. They're not simply looking to improve the team, they want a scalp to matter what else happens.
If they got McCoy's scalp this year, what victim would be chosen next year?
I'll admit that I thought that the playcalling was simply atrocious last year and we learned that McCoy isn't allowed to call audibles. So, my view was that Shurmur was simply over his head and called for his sacking if they didn't bring in a legitimate option as the OC. I'm not sure if Childress is the answer or not, but I'm willing to find out if the team gets better with Childress shouldering some of the load.
I'm beginning to think that we're on the right path somehow. I don't know if I'll like all of the decisions the front office makes, but I think surrounding Shurmur with experienced coaches can do nothing but help him and teach him. That should help McCoy's development too.
I wasn't really sold on Richardson, and I wouldn't be upset if we didn't get him, but I the more info that I'm gathering and what I think is the likely path that Holmgren & Heckert are taking will be to draft him at #4. They probably won't trade down.
However, they could still trade back and give up the chance to draft Richardson and accumulate even more picks, including a high pick or so in next year's draft. Nothing would surprise me.
If prodded, I would probably say that I think they'll be taking Richardson at #4, grabbing a WR at #22 (I don't think anyone would be surprised that my choice would be Stephen Hill) and going for either the RT or OLB in the 2nd round. That's just me noodling it around in my head. Of course, they could surprise me and take neither a RB or WR in the first round.
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This interview by Lerner has some nice nuggets in it. I suggest that you listen to it. It doesn't explicitly say anything about trading up for RG3 or anything as such, but it gives some insight into what was going through Lerner's head at the time of the interview (specifically January 18th of this year). http://www.wtam.com/player/?station=WTAM...mp;mid=21740981Take it for what it's worth. As for the speculation, that's all we can really do. Even if someone directly involved says something, are we to take it at face value? I don't think we have to accept that. Even when asked about how the trade offers were different, all that Fisher said was that Washington's firsts were for three consecutive years and not two this year and one next year. That was the deal maker. The Rams wanted those two first round picks in both 2013 and 2014 and that's not what the Browns offer was.
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I have rebuilt businesses before.
yt...so that makes you qualified to do what?...take over as President of the Cleveland Browns?
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However, in a situation like this, 3 drafts and 3 years in, they better show considerable improvement over the crap we saw on the field last year.
yt...the comment above is a great example of the frustrated fan talking, handing out ultimatums and insults.
You saw no evidence of improvement last season?
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On a 5 year plan, I would guess that it should go:
yt...this is that great imagination of yours pretending you are rebuilding the Browns and laying down "imaginary yearly goals". At this point, you are simply playing fantasy football, with little or no sense of reality.
If the goal you laid down for year 3 is not met, then what?
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Now Holmgren decided to ignore year 1 by retaining Mangini.
yt...so Holmgren did nothing in his first year on the job?
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He did not want to throw his hand picked coach into a meat grinder of a schedule, so he took the easy way out and kept Mangini, and then tossed him overboard at the end of a brutal year with a QB trio of Delhomme, Wallace, and McCoy.
yt...this is your fantasy football imagination working overtime in an attempt to manufacture a reason to justify your hatred of Holmgren. Holmgren fired Mangini and you still have not gotten over it.
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Speaking of rumors, there were rumors that Mangini did not feel that McCoy was a capable QB at the NFL level, and wanted to find a new QB at all costs for 2011, and this was part of the reason he was not retained.
yt...got a source for this?
OR, is it just something you created in as attempt to justify your continued hatred of Holmgren?
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Anyway, this is year 3 of the program, and this team should be a team ready to win as many games as it loses.
yt...so you are looking for an 8 win season...could happen but I believe a more realistic goal would be 5 or 6 wins.
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By the end of this year the QB damn well should be identified and established. If it's going to take a new guy 2-3 years just to get the system down...
yt...if the Browns decide to wait until 2013 to draft a QB and begin to stockpile picks to help maneuver into position to draft one of the top QBs in the 2013 draft.
That might be a better strategy than spending one of our top picks to draft questionable QB talent in this year's draft.
When establishing any long term strategy, such as rebuilding a football franchise over a 5 year period of time, there must be flexibility built into the plan.
Laying down concrete markers or goals to be achieved within a rigid time frame might sound good but it is rarely, if ever done in the NFL, due to the many factors that fluctuate year to year. Such demands are unrealistic and in some cases, agenda driven.
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If it's going to take a new guy 2-3 years just to get the system down, then this regime will be out of time by then.
So will Holmgren.
YT...this might be the most revealing comment of the entire post.
...you want the 5 year plan to fail.
...you want to see Holmgren fired.
Obviously, you have not gotten over Mangini being fired by Holmgren.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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It is OK to show some regression early on, if it's part of the plan. However, in a situation like this, 3 drafts and 3 years in, they better show considerable improvement over the crap we saw on the field last year.
3 years in? Am I Rumpelstilskin and it's April 2013 and not April 2012?
Wasn't Heckert's first draft the 2010 draft? Hmmm....2010=1, 2011=2, 2012=not here yet.
We are NOT 3 years in with this rebuild! 
Colt has NOT played 3 years in the NFL.
You have your # of years off by 50%.
All your exaggeration is not necessary. I think EVERYONE on this board either thinks Colt absolutely can't do it or has enough doubt about him to understand why the front office is kicking around for competition at the position - whether they want to give him another shot with better weapons or not.
You almost sound like an ESPN writer when you blatantly misrepresent the facts to help prove your point.
You don't need to do that...you have articulated where you stand...you have been remarkably consistent...you make very good points (even where I disagree)...you appear to be knowledgeable in what you speak of...and you are CLEARLY a diehard Browns fan.
However, you lessen the impact of your argument when you "miss" the number of years with this regime/QB by 50 freakin' %.
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All Pro
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I know it would be horribly unpopular, but I wouldn't mind trading back a bit and taking DeCastro. You instantly have another pro bowler and depth at the same time at guard. Right tackle can still be addressed and you have one of the best lines in football. The quarterback would have plenty of time and the running game could thrive even if we use our current backs.
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very, very unpopular. 
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Speaking of rumors, there were rumors that Mangini did not feel that McCoy was a capable QB at the NFL level, and wanted to find a new QB at all costs for 2011, and this was part of the reason he was not retained.
There were rumors also, that Mangini thought Robiski & Masiquia were top notch NFL recievers, good enough to spend two second round picks on them.....Just saying.... 
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Do you understand future tense vs present/past tense?
I speak of this coming year, that is the future, and yes, 3 years in, they had better show improvement over the garbage was saw in year 2 of the regime last year. (past tense)
I swear that some of you guys get so defensive over stuff just to get defensive.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I have rebuilt businesses before.
yt...so that makes you qualified to do what?...take over as President of the Cleveland Browns?
Nope, but it does give me a certain insight into the process, and what it entails. I understand how the building of a program goes, from starting at the basics of enforcing rules and procedures with 0 tolerance for those who want to do it their own way because "that's what we've always done", all the way up. The mental hurdles are the hardest to overcome.
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However, in a situation like this, 3 drafts and 3 years in, they better show considerable improvement over the crap we saw on the field last year.
yt...the comment above is a great example of the frustrated fan talking, handing out ultimatums and insults.
You saw no evidence of improvement last season?
On offense? Not one single bit. I saw extreme regression, especially from the QB position. What improvement did you see on offense? What did we do better on offense last year compared to the year before?
As far as frustration, you're damn right I'm frustrated. I hate watching my beloved Cleveland Browns looking like a bad circus clown troupe. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your reply, because it was just a nothing response in the end. I laid out a plausible timeline for a 5 year plan as announced by Lerner and Holmgren when Holmgren was hired. If you think that we will somehow, magically, be transformed into a great team in year 5 without any steps along the way, well, that would explain a whole lot about your outlook on other matters as well.
I only threw in the Mangini rumor because it is probably about as believable as some of the other crap flying lately.
As far as coaches ..... I don't care who coaches the Cleveland Browns ..... I just want, and expect them to win.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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3 years in? Am I Rumpelstilskin and it's April 2013 and not April 2012?
Wasn't Heckert's first draft the 2010 draft? Hmmm....2010=1, 2011=2, 2012=not here yet.
We are NOT 3 years in with this rebuild!
Colt has NOT played 3 years in the NFL.
You have your # of years off by 50%.
If you read his whole post it starts with the premise that "IF we don't show improvement this year...." then we will be 3 years in and we will have shown no improvement... since mac is basically saying that if we suck again this year and score 12 points a game and give up 24 points a game and win 3 games, it's ok.. because we have a plan.
And I'm sort of in agreement with ytown.. I want to see improvement. I don't know that we need a specific number of wins for me to call it enough but I'll know improvement if I see it. H&H are in this spot partly because of their own doing... they got rid of some decent talent because they deemed that they couldn't work with guys like Winslow.. then last year got handcuffed by the strike... I get all of that.. and they have drafted pretty well based on what we see so far... I don't want anybody fired because I agree with mac that we have lacked consistency and that has been a big problem.. I will admit though, I'm interested to know which regime over the last 13 years he thinks we should have stuck with.....
yebat' Putin
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I want to see improvement and wins. I don't want to see 6 fluke, close wins. A improving team will occasionally toss up 32 points in a loss. A series of 2 point wins does nothing for me.
7 wins and see improvement is what I expect at minimum or these guys can hit the road as far as I am concerned....and I am being nice today. I should say 8 wins minimum.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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A series of 2 point wins does nothing for me.
See that's where we differ because that would come down to the eye test.. beating another 3 win team 7-6 and I agree with you, that does nothing for me... beating the Saints 26-24 would be great... so in that series of 2 point wins it would depend on who we played and how we played...
And sadly, there isn't another team in the NFL that you can put on our schedule that we can honestly say we "SHOULD" beat... not even the Colts.
yebat' Putin
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I am not saying a close win isn't a good thing, especially against a quality team. I am saying we need to lose some games scoring 32 points to be able to say we have improved on O. We need to see the O moving the ball. When was the last time we can realistically say the D lost the game when the O scored a paltry 17 points or less.....even 24??? At some point the D can't be expected to give up under 17 points to have a so so chance at winning the game. Seriously my friend, when was the last time we could enter the 4th Qtr. with the game in the bag.....just sit back, drink a few extra brews, munch some wings and slap backs or exchange hugs??? Come on man, teams on the upswing give their fans that several times a season. Not several times a decade. I stand by my comments.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 04/17/12 06:13 PM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Well there may not be a team the Browns " should" beat and that may be the fault of the coach and the quarterback of the Browns, but I'll say one thing.
The talent around the quarterback, the Browns have wayy more talent around the quarterback, offense and defense, than the Jaguars.
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You're right... They've only got the nfl's leading rusher by 250 yards and one of the 8 best TEs in the league
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yebat' Putin
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Seriously my friend, when was the last time we could enter the 4th Qtr. with the game in the bag.....just sit back, drink a few extra brews, munch some wings and slap backs or exchange hugs???
Ahhh..Those day of Bernie, Clay, Ozzie....I remember 85, 86..
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Seriously my friend, when was the last time we could enter the 4th Qtr. with the game in the bag.....just sit back, drink a few extra brews, munch some wings and slap backs or exchange hugs???
Ahhh..Those day of Bernie, Clay, Ozzie....I remember 85, 86..
And Byner and Mack pounding out first down after first down protecting the lead... 
yebat' Putin
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And Byner and Mack pounding out first down after first down protecting the lead...
That was a thing of beauty....and there was nothing they could do about it....
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You're right... They've only got the nfl's leading rusher by 250 yards and one of the 8 best TEs in the league
May be right, and very little else, seriously all the fans want to fire the GM they hate him on a high level.
The Jaguars win more, and with such little talent around the quarterback. I guess that would suggest the Browns coach isn't getting as much out of his better talent. A coach that goes in expecting everything to go perfect with few tricks up his sleeve and seems not prepared to try a gamble late in games that if it pays off puts the Browns in a sure win position.
Then the post game news conference claiming everything has to go perfect for the Browns to win.
What I'm saying is if a coach can put a team in a position to have a big play then the player who made that play will become the player who leads in rushing by 250. The coach and the quarterack are making everyone on the team look better, or worse?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I have been thinking more and more about the Browns RT situation, and I have a feeling that I know what direction the Browns are going in there. If you want a "step in immediately" kind of RT, you usually better grab one in the 1st, or maybe the 2nd round. Beyond that and you are usually developing a guy for down the road. Greco was drafted back in 2008, and the Browns thought enough of him to trade for him last year. Heckert traded for a guy he (and presumably Shurmur) liked, a former 3rd round pick of the Rams, and a guy whose primary criticism in making the leap from college to the NFL was that he needed to improve his technique, but that he had the physical ability to play RT. That guy is John Greco. (a Boardman native, by the way) I don't think that Cousins is the fallback plan ...... I kinda think that Greco might be. I think that he could handle RT, and could grow into the position. I like that option more than the Cousins option, that's for sure. Just throwing out an option for people to tear into and rip apart. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Maybe Greco is the guy but in todays presser, Heckert said they still want one. smokescreen? dunno
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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If the Vikings pass on Kalil...the Browns will have to make a decision...plus, their phone will be ringing.
Me being an Oline guy...I take Kalil with the #4 pick or trade down if the price is right...but it would have to be one heck of an offer.
.....LT...........LG...........C..........RG.......RT.....
Thomas....Pinkston.....Mack......Lavao....Kalil....
Kalil would help the offensive running game as well as protecting the QB..adding an OT of Kalil's caliber might help the Browns offense as much as any other player left on the board.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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If the Vikings pass on Kalil...the Browns will have to make a decision...plus, their phone will be ringing.
Me being an Oline guy...I take Kalil with the #4 pick or trade down if the price is right...but it would have to be one heck of an offer.
.....LT...........LG...........C..........RG.......RT.....
Thomas....Pinkston.....Mack......Lavao....Kalil....
Kalil would help the offensive running game as well as protecting the QB..adding an OT of Kalil's caliber might help the Browns offense as much as any other player left on the board.
You know what's funny about this? If for some reason they did draft Kalil, they could draft Kellen Moore (a southpaw) and wouldn't have to change the OL if something happened to McCoy.
It's not what I would want, mind you, but you could draft a left-handed QB and not change a thing on the OL.
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I just hope they don't put alot of eggs in Mike Adams OT's basket, because if he is the answer it will be the first time he shows it. He doesn't get alot of love, (none of the Buckeye offensive line get alot of love on radio around here) and they seemed to underperform as a group going back all the way to the loss to Florida in the national championship game. Which may have been before Mike Adam's time. If he's the projected late first round pick ( square peg for a square hole fit) at right tackle, it doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be able to handle the NFL rush. I'm worried the Browns will pick him high. 37 is high.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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