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Official: Charges coming in Trayvon Martin death SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — A law enforcement official says that charges are being filed in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. The official with knowledge of the investigation says a prosecutor will announce charges against George Zimmerman on Wednesday at 6 p.m. Zimmerman's arrest is also expected soon. The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is. Zimmerman has asserted since the Feb. 26 killing that he shot the 17-year-old in self-defense after the two fought. The case has sparked protests and calls for Zimmerman's arrest. A factor in the pace of the probe has been Florida's so-called stand your ground law, which gives people wide latitude to claim self-defense in a killing and other altercations. web page
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The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is.
Well at least now i'll get to see the real evidence.
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The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is.
Gotta love government leaks. An official who is not authorized to release info releases it.
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The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is.
Well at least now i'll get to see the real evidence.
I don't think we'll see/hear the evidence. I would hope the prosecutor wouldn't do that. What we WILL hear is the charge, or charges against him.
Am I wrong in thinking that prosecutors shouldn't be dumping out evidence to the public?
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The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is.
Well at least now i'll get to see the real evidence.
I don't think we'll see/hear the evidence. I would hope the prosecutor wouldn't do that. What we WILL hear is the charge, or charges against him.
Am I wrong in thinking that prosecutors shouldn't be dumping out evidence to the public?
No, but the trial should be public. Why wouldn't it be? And that will be heavily televised/covered by at least Headline News and TruTV, probably CNN, etc. too
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Nancy Grace *shudder*
I wonder what new evidence has come up giving them reason to charge him now when they didnt earlier. I hope they arent folding to public pressure.
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The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is.
Well at least now i'll get to see the real evidence.
I don't think we'll see/hear the evidence. I would hope the prosecutor wouldn't do that. What we WILL hear is the charge, or charges against him.
Am I wrong in thinking that prosecutors shouldn't be dumping out evidence to the public?
No, but the trial should be public. Why wouldn't it be? And that will be heavily televised/covered by at least Headline News and TruTV, probably CNN, etc. too
Oh. I took your statement to mean that when the charges are announced we'll know the evidence. My bad.
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I wonder what new evidence has come up giving them reason to charge him now when they didnt earlier. I hope they arent folding to public pressure.
It's not that it has to be new evidence that came up this week - this is really only the second chance to press charges after the police didn't within the first few hours after the incident.
It also doesn't need to be new evidence per-say -- it could just be that the prosecutor disagreed with police on whether there was enough evidence or not to press charges.
It'll will be very interesting to hear what charges are being discussed - it could be something as small as "illegally posessing a firearm" - since (I've heard - but there's a lot of noise out there now) that Zimmerman had a restraining order against him, which means he shouldn't have been allowed to do concealed carry. Or it could be manslaughter.
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Nancy Grace *shudder*
I wonder what new evidence has come up giving them reason to charge him now when they didnt earlier. I hope they arent folding to public pressure.
It may not be "new" evidence, as much as compounded evidence. They don't want to press charges with flimsy evidence, in which case they will gather evidence before pressing charges. Which is partially why people aren't always arrested right away. You have to have evidence or the case will never make it to trial.
Correct me if I am wrong, but if they take something to trial, and it mistrials or the sspect is found not guilty. The eveidence used in that trial can not be used again if new eveidence is found?
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Correct me if I am wrong, but if they take something to trial, and it mistrials or the sspect is found not guilty. The eveidence used in that trial can not be used again if new eveidence is found?
IANAL, but in the case of the suspect found not-guilty, you can't retry them at all for the same crime - even if you have a completely new set of evidence.
In a mistrial, you can normally retry with all the same evidence - since it generally just means some technicality was breached during the trial -- the exception, i believe, is if misconduct on the part of the prosecutor caused the mistrial.
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Or it could be manslaughter.
That would be my guess.
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If they arrest him and announce that it's for illegally possessing a firearm, there will be riots.
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I can see manslaughter as a reasonable charge.
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GOOD! = Step 1 complete!
Step 2 trial!
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Official: Charges coming in Trayvon Martin death
SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — A law enforcement official says that charges are being filed in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
The official with knowledge of the investigation says a prosecutor will announce charges against George Zimmerman on Wednesday at 6 p.m. Zimmerman's arrest is also expected soon.
The official didn't know the charge and spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The official said that authorities know where Zimmerman is.
Zimmerman has asserted since the Feb. 26 killing that he shot the 17-year-old in self-defense after the two fought. The case has sparked protests and calls for Zimmerman's arrest.
A factor in the pace of the probe has been Florida's so-called stand your ground law, which gives people wide latitude to claim self-defense in a killing and other altercations.
web page
I've not defended either side of this because the noise coming out of florida has been clouded by race based accusations. But this morning, when Zimmermans lawyers said that they no longer represent him and that they arent sure where he is,, the dude is making himself look very very guilty..
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I'm pretty sure his lawyers didn't decide this morning to not represent him. In fact, what I read yesterday, I believe, was they decided to step aside based on the fact he wasn't talking to them anymore. They DID know where he was, as a matter of fact.
The police/authorities DID know where he was all along.
Regardless - the state of Florida has decided to charge him with 2nd degree manslaughter. He IS in custody.
At this point, we have to let the legal procedure take its course.
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Regardless - the state of Florida has decided to charge him with 2nd degree manslaughter. He IS in custody.
At this point, we have to let the legal procedure take its course.
2nd degree murder, which is between voluntary manslaughter and 1st degree murder (according to some legal def website i found)
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-definition.html
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Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.
For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.
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Of course it's Florida where Casey Anthony got off scott free, so this one should be interesting.
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2nd degree murder
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782.04(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
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For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.
I disagree with this example on two grounds:
1. Transferred intent - He intended to kill someone, had malice aforethought and fired into the vehicle. The intent transfers from one person to the next. 1st degree.
2. Felony murder - it's 1st degree murder if you're committing a felony and someone dies as a result of it. E.g. you're robbing a bank which gives someone a heart attack and they die. it's 1st degree. I think shooting a gun into a car would be a felony. Someone died as a result. 1st degree.
I can't really think of any examples since it's late, but I would imagine something more along the lines of driving a car 110 mph through a crowded area for no good reason.
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The example is pretty much the definition of second degree murder.
He didn't go out trying to kill somebody - he just had the gun on him. And you can't call "shooting somebody" the felony that precipitates the murder charge to get "murder 1" --
"he shot a guy which was a felony, and then the guy died so it is murder while commiting a felony" - is a bit circular.
From the same cite:
"Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.
For example, Dan and Connie rob Victor's liquor store, but as they are fleeing, Victor shoots and kills Dan. Under the felony murder rule, Connie can be charged with first-degree murder for Dan's death."
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From what I've always heard ... 1st degree murder is pre-meditated. 2nd degree murder is what occurs when another felony (such as assault or robbery) is being committed and a non-pre-meditated murder occurs.
"Heat of the moment" murders though, are somewhat of that grey area. Things like a guy finding his wife cheating on him, and then murdering her on the spot usually gets treated as a first degree murder.
The only way I see this going down for 2nd degree, is if they have evidence that he initiated an assault first, and then eventually murdered him.
What I HOPE isn't happening is that the DA is trying a 2nd degree with circumstantial or even non-exisitant evidence ... knowing full well that they'll likely lose the case, but the free press gets their "name" out there for re-election ... yet it still leaves the door open for a more likely "Manslaughter" charge at a later date.
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"Heat of the moment" murders though, are somewhat of that grey area. Things like a guy finding his wife cheating on him, and then murdering her on the spot usually gets treated as a first degree murder.
I think this is normally called voluntary manslaughter:
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/voluntary-manslaughter-definition.html
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Voluntary manslaughter is commonly defined as an intentional killing in which the offender had no prior intent to kill, such as a killing that occurs in the "heat of passion." The circumstances leading to the killing must be the kind that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed; otherwise, the killing may be charged as a first-degree or second-degree murder.
Voluntary manslaughter actually sounds most applicable to the case at hand, from later in the article:
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/voluntary-manslaughter-overview.html
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States sometimes also define voluntary manslaughter as a homicide that occurs with the mistaken belief that the killing was justified. For instance, if the defendant kills in self-defense, but was the original aggressor in the situation that led to the homicide, the state would probably classify the killing as voluntary manslaughter. In addition, voluntary manslaughter can also encompass a homicide that occurs based on the defendants honest but unreasonable belief that a situation requires deadly force.
Of course, maybe florida is not such a state - or maybe they are hoping to work a plea deal on voluntary manslaughter later..... again IANAL.
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Ah yes you are right ... for some reason I kept thinking that "man kills cheating wife in the heat of the moment" was 1st degree, but yes ... voluntary manslaughter sounds right. This sounds like a textbook VM case ... but the Stand your Ground law in Florida makes this somewhat a fuzzy case. 2nd degree sounds like an "over"-charge though. I hope there is some solid evidence behind it, and not just a reason to make this a circus without having to risk double-jeopardy to the manslaughter charge. They would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin initiated an assault.
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Just reference the actual text of the statute that I copied about 5 posts up.
Felony murder is when the killer is someone other than the person committing the felony. Felony murder in Florida is apparently second-degree murder. See section (3) of the homicide statute.
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Quote:
Ah yes you are right ... for some reason I kept thinking that "man kills cheating wife in the heat of the moment" was 1st degree, but yes ... voluntary manslaughter sounds right. This sounds like a textbook VM case ... but the Stand your Ground law in Florida makes this somewhat a fuzzy case. 2nd degree sounds like an "over"-charge though. I hope there is some solid evidence behind it, and not just a reason to make this a circus without having to risk double-jeopardy to the manslaughter charge. They would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin initiated an assault.
So from the press release -- at least my interpretation -- they will argue that Zimmerman argued with callous disregard for life, which pushes the charge up from voluntary manslaughter. Not sure what that will really entail at trial...
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They better have some serious evidence beyond what's been reported thus far to get a murder 2, at least as I understand the law.
I would have thought that manslaughter would be the route to go, as the standard would be lower.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Felony murder is when the killer is someone other than the person committing the felony. Felony murder in Florida is apparently second-degree murder. See section (3) of the homicide statute.
So uh ... excessive self-defense? Or what most other states would usually call voluntary manslaughter is considered second degree murder in Florida?
Except you can also claim "Stand your ground" where you can shoot to kill if feel your life was threated ... something most other states would consider voluntary manslaughter ... It's like Florida can't make up their mind. 
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They better have some serious evidence beyond what's been reported thus far to get a murder 2, at least as I understand the law.
I would have thought that manslaughter would be the route to go, as the standard would be lower.
I know that there are occasions where a lesser charge can be considered if the jury doesn't believe the one a defendant was charged with met the burden of proof.
Considering we didn't have any evidence to go on I would think they have more than we know about.
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Yeah, that's true. I just worry when a prosecutor "overcharges" a case, that the jury might see it as politically motivated and let the defendant off completely. (ala OJ and the idiot woman who killed her kids)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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I don't defend Zimmerman, but I have to say it is a slippery slope when charges are brought due to public outcry. This will be interesting to watch unfold.
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Quote:
Quote:
Felony murder is when the killer is someone other than the person committing the felony. Felony murder in Florida is apparently second-degree murder. See section (3) of the homicide statute.
So uh ... excessive self-defense? Or what most other states would usually call voluntary manslaughter is considered second degree murder in Florida?
Except you can also claim "Stand your ground" where you can shoot to kill if feel your life was threated ... something most other states would consider voluntary manslaughter ... It's like Florida can't make up their mind.
The problem with SYG, is the way it was written versus it's intent.
It was intended to give you legal defense if your going about your business and are confronted by an agressor. It was not intended to be a way out when you put yourself into a possible situation.
For instance, I am going to my car and a thug walks up behind me as I'm opening my door, and displays a knife and asks for my wallet. I am not required to run or leave even if the oppotunity and means are available, I can stand and use lethal force.
As far as the charges, I wonder if they really expect him to get convicted or it's all part of a larger plan to avoid riots?
Last edited by FloridaFan; 04/12/12 08:00 AM.
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As far as the charges, I wonder if they really expect him to get convicted or it's all part of a larger plan to avoid riots?
I wondered that also - but I doubt it. I think they feel they have a case - and let's face it, if he's found not guilty, there will be riots anyway.
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Felony murder is when the killer is someone other than the person committing the felony. Felony murder in Florida is apparently second-degree murder. See section (3) of the homicide statute.
So uh ... excessive self-defense? Or what most other states would usually call voluntary manslaughter is considered second degree murder in Florida?
Except you can also claim "Stand your ground" where you can shoot to kill if feel your life was threated ... something most other states would consider voluntary manslaughter ... It's like Florida can't make up their mind.
No. Felony murder means (in oversimplified terms) that if someone is killed during the commission of a felony, the person committing the felony is guilty of murder (in the second degree in Florida), even though he wasn't the person who committed the homicide.
Mike and Sam commit an armed robbery of Will's convenience store. As they flee the scene Will shoots and kills Mike. Sam can then be found guilty for the murder of Mike.
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Here's a local case with just that, just finally got sentenced. While it wasn't the victim killing a suspect, they charged the other suspect with murder even though she was in the back room at the time it happened. Quote:
LINK
Justice delayed is not always justice denied.
The mother of a 20-year-old San Carlos Park convenience store clerk who was shot to death during a botched robbery in 2007 said Monday she can finally move on with her life.
“It’s been four years, seven months and three days since my son died,” Gail Peluso said. “Justice’s wheels turn slowly, but justice did come to my family.”
Peluso attended the sentencing hearing for Iris Moreland, 31, who was given 40 years in prison for her role in the death of Gerald Rabon, an Eagle Scout and Lee County Sheriff’s Explorer, during a robbery at the Pik ‘N Run at a Hess station on Alico Road.
Moreland pleaded no contest in 2009 to second-degree murder as part of a deal with the state where she agreed to testify against her brother, Chad Moreland.
Chad Moreland pleaded no contest in November to first-degree murder in exchange for avoiding the death penalty. He received life in prison.
With Chad’s case closed, Iris’ sentencing could proceed and Rabon’s family could advance one step closer to closure.
“Now it’s time for me to go on and start the foundation in Gerry’s memory, so we can have some more police officers on the street,” Peluso said afterward.
She also addressed the court before the sentence was handed down.
“In my head, I know that justice has been served but, in my heart, there’s only an emptiness that can never be filled,” she said. “Mine and my son Jack’s life can now start rebuilding.”
Moreland’s family declined comment afterward. As Iris Moreland was being led away in her red jumpsuit, her mother called out, “Love you Iris,” to which she responded, “Love you momma.”
Back in 2009 when she pleaded no contest, a tearful Iris testified to plotting the robbery with her brother and store clerk Elizabeth Reed. Iris had also worked at the Pik ‘N Run. Reed was not charged.
Things went wrong, however, when Rabon tried to wrestle the gun from Chad, she explained. The gun went off, striking Rabon, who died in a hospital five days later. Rabon worked at the store for $8 an hour.
Iris said it was never the plan to kill anyone.
Moreland’s attorney, David Brener, said the sentence was reasonable for both his client and the state.
“This was a case where the defendant was seen on the videotape committing the crime and the victim, unfortunately, was also seen being shot and killed and expiring, just about, on tape as well,” Brener said.
“We were able to get the death penalty removed from the case and give her an opportunity to see some light at the end of the tunnel,” he said. “She’ll probably be in her mid- to late-50s or early 60s when she gets out of prison.”
Last edited by FloridaFan; 04/12/12 09:30 AM.
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Felony murder is when the killer is someone other than the person committing the felony.
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No. Felony murder means (in oversimplified terms) that if someone is killed during the commission of a felony, the person committing the felony is guilty of murder (in the second degree in Florida), even though he wasn't the person who committed the homicide.
Uh ... so I guess that means Trayvon committed the assault and Zimmerman shot him ... which would mean Trayvon is guilty of his own second degree murder?
I get what you're saying, but that would only make sense if there were 3 or more people. It's meant so that they can tack on a murder charge to everyone involved in a felony if one of the people happens to kill someone. I don't see how that would apply in this case.
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It doesn't apply in this case. Someone above brought up felony murder.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Hall of Famer
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
j/c web page Its a long article, but there is one little thing I found interesting in this: "1:20 p.m. ET: Trayvon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton, who said on the "Today" show early Thursday that she believed Zimmerman's fatal shooting of her son was an "accident," has retracted those comments. "George Zimmerman stalked my son and murdered him in cold blood," told MSNBC in a separate interview. "I believe it was an accident," Fulton told Ann Curry in the initial interview. "I believe that it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back."' Sounds to me as if a handler got to her.
"My signature line goes here."
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,385 Likes: 883 |
Quote:
The example is pretty much the definition of second degree murder.
I disagree.
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He didn't go out trying to kill somebody - he just had the gun on him.
I disagree again. Now you've done-gone made me dust off my old Bar-Bri book. "Premeditated" does not have to involve a significant amount of time. "Premeditated" means that the defendant actually reflected on the idea of killing, if only for a very brief period.
He saw the guy. Premeditation occurred when he reached for his gun. He clearly knew what he was getting himself into. He aimed, he pulled the trigger.
I concede felony murder is not a strong point, but most states usually codify the felonies to be included with felony murder. I think Ohio's is 2903 and I have no clue when it comes to Florida. The idea with most courts is that the felony has to be inherently dangerous, so I don't think the argument is completely lost here.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
most states usually codify the felonies to be included with felony murder... I have no clue when it comes to Florida.
782.04(3)
Why are we talking about felony murder again?
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Trayvon Martin pt 2
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