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There is something worse than not having a franchise qb, it is Ken Dorsey and others starting the last half of your season due to injuries.,
By that logic, the only way they absolutly must stay away from any of the remaining qb's and wait until next year to acquire a qb, is if ANY!!! qb they might select is beleived to be lesser than 3rd stringer ... what's his name?
Oh yeah Thaddeus Lewis. \
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I'd really like to draft Darron Thomas of Oregon late in the draft (6th/7th round). I think he is pretty good.
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Who was the NFL GM or Coach that was asked why he had a 5 year plan and he said because he had a 5 year contract.. If he had a 3 year contract he would have had a 3 year plan.  Unless we go backwards or show absolutely no progress at all this year, which I think is highly unlikely, I don't see anybody getting fired after this year. (and I'm not even talking about W-L, I'm talking about what any person can see on the field looking like a better football team)..
yebat' Putin
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I'm assuming it's not uncommon for people in the NFL to make the owner promises... the only question is what happens if those promises go unfulfilled? Does it mean nothing, Shurmur goes, Holmgren goes or another clean sweep? I hope Randy is at least patient while we build this roster up but at this point, he's probably just as frustrated as we are if not moreso.
And what happens if the team regresses this year?
What happens if the offense improves marginally, and then the defense begins to be exposed as nowhere near as good as rankings last year would have some believe?
What happens if we cannot run the ball at all after letting Hillis walk?
What happens if McCoy flops badly, and we have no true backup plan?
All of these are possibilities this year. Some early reads following the schedule have us going 1-15 to 4-12 again. Is that good enough for people to remain employed? When Heckert arrived we already had Thomas and Mack, Massaquoi, Cribbs, Evan Moore, Rubin, Jackson, Ventrone, Maiava, Dawson, Benard, and Schaefering. That's 12 guys from 2009 who are still on the team today. That's just shy of 1/4 of the 53 man roster, most of whom are contributors, and active on game days as well.
The cupboard wasn't bare when Heckert took over, no matter what some may say.
Heckert has turned over the rest of the roster, but many teams seem to turn over 10-12 players per year. Players retire, leave via free agency, are cut because better replacements are found, or because they are too expensive, and so on.
We should be settling into the "normal" turnover for a team starting with this year's draft. We might be 4-10 players over what a "normal" good team would turn over in a cumulative 3 years ...... but not much more than that. many of those guys might not even wind up being active on game days.
Heckert will have drafted 29 players when this year's draft finishes up. Adding that to the 12 he inherited who are still on the team gives him a total of 41 players he either drafted, or liked well enough to keep for a couple of years. Add in free agents like Watson, Rucker, Parker, Wallace, Lewis, Norwood, Smith, Cousins, Ogbonnaya, Jackson, and so on .... and he'e put a huge stamp on this team so far. Add in 13 more draft picks this year and this will be Heckert's team. The personnel side should damn well be in solid shape by now. We should have very few holes after 3 drafts, which will have given us 29 draftees between them.
Now it remains to be seen if the team can put it all together on the field. if they can't, then I don;t know what Lerner will do. If this team goes 2-14 and looks bad doing so, I have a feeling that we could see many changes. I think that he would be right to expect a team that looks like a real NFL team at this point in the operation.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If this team goes 2-14 and looks bad doing so,
As opposed to going 2-14 and looking really good? 
yebat' Putin
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I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt that such a thing could, conceivably, happen. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think if we go backwards heads will roll... unless some freakish outbreak of mad cow disease sidelines 6 or 7 core starters there is no way we should be backwards...
yebat' Putin
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Like someone famous once said "There is no 'try', there is only 'do' and 'do not'.".
Someone famous? The exact quote is "Do or not do... there is no try" and it was this guy. 
Really?
Mac said that?!?!
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Looks more like a TOAD to me.. 
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We have been around a long time haven't we. There are what about 15-20 from the old board still around? I live in Charlotte but visit Cleveland a fair bit because my Dad still lives there. I usually get to a game once a year or once every other year. When I plan a trip to Cleveland in the fall I will PM you. If I don't go to the game I can head down and tailgate with you before hand
Sounds good Jester, please do that...I go up to games solo most of the time, so there is a good chance I'll have a ticket. I sell them for what I can, but at this point it is mostly for some good company and a couple of beers at the seat.
Let me know your plans.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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It sounded to me as if he was reluctant to name anybody he met with. As if some team (maybe ours or maybe some other) asked him not to. He even seemed reluctant to confirm that he met with Holmgren. Perhaps he cannot remember any of their names but there are other explanations for his unwillingness to name them.
Anytime you go to a game you are welcome to tailgate with myself, SaintDawg, and CapitalGG. 'Peen even graces with his presence sometimes. We are in the yellow lot north of the stadium.
I will definitely let all of you guys know when I get to another game. I went to the Browns-Rams game last season. I picked that game because my brother in law is a big Rams fan and I bought the tickets as a birthday present to him. Took the whole family. I thought about trying to track down a bunch of you guys but my Dad was coming and tailgating before or after would have made it too long of a day for him. Dad turns 78 in October.
And 'peen, we will make it happen. This year or next. I am using up a lot of vacation in the fall to trek out to Italy for 2 weeks.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Saw an article regarding the story of Blackmon vs Tannenhill. The writer states that the organization is hopeless because this is the decision we are making....
Either this guy is a complete idiot and doesn't see what we're trying to do, or he's trying to stir the pot and get people reading. The story is an obvious ploy to get teams attentions.
....Meaning we are clueless b/c we're choosing between those 2 and not Richardson/Claiborne or some other reason?
Yes. Meaning we were choosing between Tannenhill and Blackmon.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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Bingo....Its all a smoke screen to get other teams to get jumpy and move up...I do believe you've hit this one on the head....And yes, I'd do those trades, that would be nice.
If no trades are made, we take Richardson
I agree... I'm not believing anything until after draft day.
And to the article, if this is true (which i have no idea if it is or not) I trust Heckert's drafting much more... and if Holmgren goes after Tannehill at 4 (his first QB pick in the first round) he better nail it or his rep is going to be seriously hammered.
<><
#gmstrong
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I'll just be glad when the draft is over and we can all start focusing on the players, whoever they are, that will be wearing brown and orange.
#GMSTRONG
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I'll just be glad when the draft is over and we can all start focusing on the players, whoever they are, and discuss how it was wrong to take them.
Fixed it for you.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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#GMSTRONG
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the cupboard was bare when Heckert took over. of those guys you listed,only 4 are quaility every down players.....Thomas,Mack, Rubin and Jackson..out of those 2,Rubin and Thomas are top 3 top 5 at their position....Mack and Jackson IMO are adequte,but overated.
Cribbs is the next tier down..at one time a very dangerous kick returner and the best scoring threat on the Browns. Dawson has been the most consistant player since 99.
everyone else are marginal role players who can be replaced...and should be.
you are never gonna close the gap on the AFC North as long as you employ guys like Schafering,Ventrone,Maivia,Moore and Benard.
now as far as free agents go,Heckert has failed to acquire impact game changing FA's in his tenure.
New England knew it was time to unload Ben Watson. past his prime when he came to C-town.
Scott Fujita..how many important stops has he made?
Frostee Rucker,Jacqua Parker....role players who Heckert over paid for.
Tony Pashos had "stay away" written all over him.
Artis Hicks..really? Oneil Cousins....when Ozzie gets rid if a player,its for a valid reason.
Heckert needs to start finding some hidden gems in the mid RDs.
No projects like Cameron or stiffs like Owen Marecic and Montario 1-yardesty.
this team isn't that much better than how Mangini left it.
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I trust Heckert's drafting much more... and if Holmgren goes after Tannehill at 4 (his first QB pick in the first round) he better nail it or his rep is going to be seriously hammered.
If we get Tannehill because of Holmgren, which is to say not because of Heckert, then Holmgren should be fired before the first round is over, because it isn't his job to pick the players now, it's Heckert's. Heckert has the better track record, and any good manager would know it. If The Walrus doesn't know it, then he isn't a good manager and needs to be removed from the equation with all haste.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Well If I owned the team. I would give Mike, Tom, Brad and Pat one vote each and I would break any ties 
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Well If I owned the team. I would give Mike, Tom, Brad and Pat one vote each and I would break any ties
What about (Richard)? I'm so Juvenile, The defensive coordinator has to be included in that scenario.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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If we get Tannehill because of Holmgren, which is to say not because of Heckert, then Holmgren should be fired before the first round is over,
Now if Holmgren was touting Richardson, you'd be lauding him, how he is the ranking member of the FO, and needs to get his way.
I remember Donovan McNabb as being a Very very unpopular pick and he worked out.
NO Tannehill is no Donovan McNabb, but he is a Ryan Tannehill .
And Whoever the pick is... sigh..... I'll just hope they make the team better... .Sigh, what else can we do.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Unless we go backwards or show absolutely no progress at all this year, which I think is highly unlikely, I don't see anybody getting fired after this year.[bold] (and I'm not even talking about W-L,[/bold] I'm talking about what any person can see on the field looking like a better football team)..
How can a team look better? Ok There is NO Way a team can look better and not improve on the wins and losses of 4-12, that's the way you prove you're better you win the freaking game(s) .
This team already is much much better than a 4-12 team, but they messed it up, they didn't win the cotton picken games with boneheaded mistakes.
The cincinnati lineup game, the Phil Taylor offsides game, and the play for a fg down 5 with 6 minutes to go game.
IF this team IS better then they need to start Winning games! Any thought that they can " show improvement" or " look better" and STILL LOSE, and lose 12, has got me  .
If they are better then go win the ( adjective) game.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Now if Holmgren was touting Richardson, you'd be lauding him, how he is the ranking member of the FO, and needs to get his way.
Incorrect, since I clearly pointed out that it's Heck's job now. If Holmgren makes it a habit of over-riding the guy who is paid to pick players, then we've got a fatal flaw in the structure of the organization.
Now if Holmgren came right out and said Richardson is the guy he likes best, I'd call him brilliant, and if Holmgren came right out and said Tannehill is the guy he likes best, I'd grumble, but neither scenario would change the fact that his days of picking the players are supposed to be over.
I haven't read anything that tells me Walrus is pulling Heck's strings behind the scenes, but if he is, our chances of fielding a winner just got measurably longer...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Nice of you to judge Rucker/Parker before they even take the field...Rucker was a "hot" FA, pursued by several teams, including his own, and signed early...a good sign of being a decent player, don't you think?
You also just left out very solid contributors in Gocong, Patterson and Norwood...when was the last time we had a solid nickel-CB and slot WR? Paxson was a nice surprise as rotational DT and Fujita was our best LB in 2010, he's lost a step or two but he's still servicable for this last season as a Brown
what was the alternative to Pashos btw? Nobody? What FA or draft pick would you have signed...and what would you have done with the position you replaced the draft pick with? Can't wait...day 1 ready OTs don't grow on trees, you know? Even Top 50 picks often take a couple of years
While no world beaters, Heckert at least got some NFL talent in here and improved depth and some starting spots...that's a huge upgrade over ST who "try" to play a position
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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really..Chris Gocong..I guess compared to Chaun Thompson,yeah Gocong is a All-Pro. But Gocong is servicable but part of the problem why the Browns run defense gets shredded on a weekly basis.
Patterson is okay..but kinda smallish and not a big hitter.
Norwood...I'm not really impressed with his 1 whole whopping TD last year and his pedistrian YPC average....he has the ability the get YAC,but doesn't show it enough.
Rucker was not a "hot" commodity. The Browns told him he'd start at RDE.
He was a fine rotational player last year but the Bengals weren't about to give him starter money. The Eagles figured Parker can be replaced in the draft at a cheaper price.
Tony Pashos....the alternative....Bryant McKinnie. went to Ravens on the cheap.
I believe Jarrod Gaither was a FA last year.
tell me this..how come Heckert didn't try to go after Eric Winston this year?
who is he depending on..Cousins..thats a laugh
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But Gocong is servicable but part of the problem why the Browns run defense gets shredded on a weekly basis.
That's just simply not true. At all.
you had a good run Hank.
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the only thing I can think of is that Gocong does have average (at best) lateral movement and did not track down some of the outside runs.
but, he sheds blocks well, and Pittsburgh and Mendenhall know very well what happens when you try to run right at him.
his bigger weakness is keeping up with TEs (but he's a heck of alot better at that than Fujita)
#gmstrong
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He even did a slightly better job of covering TE's.
The much bigger problem is on the opposite side of him, where Fujita was struggling, then we used Maiava who was simply not good at all.
Gocong was extremely good against the run and is one of the best blitzing LBers in the NFL. No way should he be replaced.
you had a good run Hank.
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I think we should keep Chris Gocong as a goalline / 3rd/4th-and-short LB only. He made some terrific plays in short yardage where he could just attack the LOS.
He's still awful in space.
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Gocong the best blitzing LB in the NFL..what..on your Madden when you go into franchise mode?
He had 3.5 sacks last year. 9 for his career.
He simply does not do a adequete job of getting a QB's uni stained.
when I think of OLB'ers getting to the QB,I think of James Harrison and Terrell Suggs.
Gocong isn't even in the top 5 OLB'ers in the NFL.
like ClevSteve said,he's effective in a small confined area. But he has trouble in space where he has to cover alot of ground.
yeah Gocong is a upgrade over the Chaun Thompson's,Ben Taylor's of the Browns history...but is that really saying alot?
I gotta see alot more negative plays he wrecks on opposing offenses.
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How many pure 4-3 OLB are out there with 5+ sacks? Oh look, Leroy Hill with 4 sacks had the most sacks by a 4-3 OLB...talk about an own goal, lol Consider this "discussion" as finished if you even try to compare 3-4 OLB numbers with those of 4-3 LBs Here's the egg you laid, have a nice day
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Not that reading and comprehending have ever been high on your priority list... but ytown didn't say he wanted people fired, he said he wouldn't be surprised if they were...
DC...not a thing wrong with my comprehension...read the board.
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And the Steelers were built in a pre-free agency world where things were much different. Do you remember Lynn Swann holding out for more money? How about when Jack Lambert tested free agency to see if he could make more money?
DC...the fact remains, the Steelers built their successful run that continues today, on the back of Chuck Noll's drafting beginning in 1969 and the Steelers stuck with Noll's plan even though they had to endure 3 more losing seasons under Noll before their franchise turned it around.
Try to change the subject does not change the fact. Even with free agency, the Steelers continued the process of building the core of their team via the draft. The Browns since their return have the opposite model, dipping into the free agent market heavily with the hopes they could build quickly...HOW DID THAT WORK OUT FOR THE BROWNS?
From 1933 to 1968, the Steelers utilized YTown's strategy of hire and fire at the first sign of tough times...they averaged a new coach every 2.4 yrs during that period and had minimal success, making the playoffs 1 time in 36 yrs.
Now that the NFL has a rookie wage scale, what is happening to the free agency market?
When Holmgren was hired and began this process, I'm sure he had insight into the NFL's agenda of pushing for a rookie wage scale in the contract year. If you are an owner, looking to build a team via the draft, the timing of the rookie wage scale could not have been better timed for Randy Lerner.
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This whole macho thing you have going about your desire to suffer and sacrifice for your team is borderline hysterical... no, wait, it's well beyond hysterical.
I'm sure if/when the Browns are good in a few years you will be on here touting how you were the only one who saw it coming and everybody was a wuss about to jump off the bandwagon.. and how you deserve to celebrate more than anybody else because you were loyal to the cause when others weren't..... which will also be hysterical....
DC...on this, obviously I can't help those who are not smart enough to realize what Holmgren is doing. Many Browns fans are all caught up in the failed policies of the past, focused on the year to year, rather than focusing on the Big Picture.
I can even use the successful rebuilding strategy of the Browns hated rival, the Steelers, and some of you still cannot see the wisdom of the long term plan started by Holmgren vs the hire and fire program that has failed the Browns since their return in 99.
DC...Browns fans are not what they used to be...fact!
Anything that can't be accomplished in a millisecond is too long for the "new" Browns fan. Most would have fired Chuck Noll after two seasons...and surely after 3 seasons, because the Steelers were still losers.
...if only Art Rooney had given in to his HIRE AND FIRE rebuilding philosophy in 1971, year 3 of Chuck Noll's rebuilding plan. But the Rooney didn't give in to the fans and in year 4 under Noll, the Steelers won 11 games and made the playoffs.
Ask any Steelers fan if the sacrifices made in 1969, 1970 and 1971, were worth it.
DC...you mention that I'm positioned to be one of the few who can say "I told you so" when the Browns do turn it around. That is not by design, but due to the fact, I understand the plan and I realize there must be sacrifice to achieve long term success.
It's not my nature to be a "negative" person...one who forever talks and types in the negative. I was not raised to be a negative individual and have had more than my share of successes in life, with a positive and steadfast approach, sticking with the basic philosophy that anything worthwhile takes time and hard work to reach the goal. Most efforts take longer than expected and cost more than expected, but the end product was well worth my sacrifices.
I have come to realize, generally, younger generations seem to look for the easy way out, the quick solution, never willing to put in the time and effort required to achieve their goal. There are "some", who are looking at the big picture, to envision what is being built in Cleveland, by Holmgren, but on this message board, the positive gets drowned out by the negative and those who see nothing but doom and gloom.
DC, flipping to those on the negative side of this rebuilding of the Browns, there are those who have positioned themselves to make hay out of failure.
If the Browns do not achieve some imaginary record this year, they will be screaming, crying, begging to have Holmgren fired, ready to rip up the long term plan he started in 2010, wanting to return to the failed "hire and fire" policies of the past.
...these negative thinkers will be running down the very team they claim to be a fan of, pointing out every negative detail of the upcoming season...from the draft to the last play of the final game, they will be whining about the season and calling for heads to roll.
It is "so easy" to give in to the emotions of the game to game season and follow those fans who see nothing but doom and gloom ahead for the Browns. Many will declare Holmgren's rebuild of the Browns, a failure and they will be calling for his head and the heads of everyone Holmgren hired.
DC..wait and see if I'm not right with the prediction above...and I can probably name the very individuals who will be leading the call for a return to the "hire and fire" methods of the past. Negativism is predictable.
I look for the 2012 season to be another tough year for the Browns, especially given the schedule the Browns will be playing.
Looking at the "Big Picture"...year 3 of the 5 year rebuilding plan, the number of wins produced in 2012, does not matter. If ever the Browns were going to have a horrible year, 2012 would be the best year to have one of their worst seasons.
I'm not talking about losing intentionally, but the fact is, the Browns offense will be better but I seriously doubt, even with the talent added from this year's draft, that it will be enough to compete with veteran teams on this "killer schedule".
The cynics would go nuts, wanting Holmgren's head on a stick, but drafting near the top of the 2013 draft might set the Browns up for a decade or more of success, especially if the Browns are in the market for a QB.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I didn't lay a egg..you said Gocong was one of the best blitzing LB'ers in the NFL.
for one,I didn't see it on the field and 2,I don't recall Gocong being talked about among the leagues best OLB's and 3 his numbers don't reflect it.
that sounds like your own opinion.
in your original claim you didn't specify 4-3 or 3-4 OLB'ers.
you just saying LB'ers.
and BTW Mr Brown...in Jauron's 4-3 scheme,rarely does he dial up blitzes from his LB'ers.
and if he was so good,then Jauron would use it to his advantage,cause the Browns were pathetic in getting to the QB last year.
Gocong is average..deal with it.
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Well If I owned the team. I would give Mike, Tom, Brad and Pat one vote each and I would break any ties
If I were the Browns owner I'd invite the local sporting press over one evening for a session on a Ouija Board consulting with the Ghost of Al Davis on who to take with our#4. Then ensuing media frenzy would burn out eventually. It would be great cover for whatever we were really going to do in the draft.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Hall of Famer
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I'm sorry that you cannot see the obvious, but you are clearly not changing your mind.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
I didn't lay a egg..you said Gocong was one of the best blitzing LB'ers in the NFL.
for one,I didn't see it on the field and 2,I don't recall Gocong being talked about among the leagues best OLB's and 3 his numbers don't reflect it.
that sounds like your own opinion.
1. Good luck quoting me on that...because I never said it. You're barking up the wrong tree in your attempt to throw mud out of your self digged hole...just admit that you gave a very biased and 1 sided view of Heckert's non draft aquisitions
2. I responded to your claim that Heckert has done nothing in FA and you just left out pretty much every contributor he has brought in...Gocong IS a valuable contributor...I never said he was a top LB, but he's NFL starting material and you just didn't mention him when talking Heckert aquisitions
3. You DID lay an egg since you compared a 4-3 OLB to 3-4 ones...everyone knows 3-4 OLBs are the equivalent to 4-3 DEs, so 4-3 OLBs can only be compared to other 4-3 OLBs
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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My error,thebigbaddawg said he was one of the best blitzing LB'ers in the NFL.
the fact still remains,Gocong is a dime a dozen OLB.
The thing is,in the past 20 years or so OLB's the Browns have employed since have basically sucked outside of Jamir Miller.
Gocong comes in a makes a few tackles around the goaline and of a sudden he percieved better than what he is.
Gocong is a liability in pass coverage vs TE's and RB's.
He has trouble getting off blocks.
lets not fool ourselves.he only looks great because of the OLB'ers that preceeded him were so darn bad
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My error,thebigbaddawg said he was one of the best blitzing LB'ers in the NFL.
the fact still remains,Gocong is a dime a dozen OLB.
The thing is,in the past 20 years or so OLB's the Browns have employed since have basically sucked outside of Jamir Miller.
Gocong comes in a makes a few tackles around the goaline and of a sudden he percieved better than what he is.
Gocong is a liability in pass coverage vs TE's and RB's.
He has trouble getting off blocks.
lets not fool ourselves.he only looks great because of the OLB'ers that preceeded him were so darn bad
I don't disagree that Gocong is some form of average *although I tend to think that he is above average whereas you seem to think that he is below average.*
He is one of the best blitzing OLB in the NFL. If you want to statistically compare him to a 3-4 OLB, I cannot help you, but in a 4-3, he absolutely is among the top 5 at that position in blitzing. He can she blocks and make a tackle. The only thing he really struggles with is defending the pass, and it is something he will always struggle with.
Dime a dozen? Ehhh, I don't think so. I think he could start for a good majority of the 4-3 teams in the NFL. He's certainly not in the top 10 or 15 players that need to be replaced, IMO.
you had a good run Hank.
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Matt Miller of Bleacher Report had him 61st out 64 OLB's in the NFL.
and Miller is a pretty astute and respected NFL writer.
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