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Mav...exactly what I was thinking...
Phil is having good success at setting smoke screens, keeping the other teams guessing as to what he has planned for our draft.
Having Lerner go to watch Quinn's pro day sure got that writer, Dan Clutter stirred up. 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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If the Browns really want Thomas, and there is the rumor that Detroit might take him,,then the best thing the browns could do is start rumors that one of the QB's isn't gonna get past them,,, that means that someone has to leapfrog the Browns and get with Detroit to take one of the top QB's,,,
Leaving us with the guy we wanted all along...
Once again Daman, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Detroit is going to get a very lucrative offer to trade down. And I think they will take it, allowing some other team to leap us and take Quinn. Now, unless Oakland trades Moss to GB (smokescreen), takes CJ at #1 and Russell falls to us, that leaves us with Thomas, Peterson, or CJ at #3. I think we will then also have the opportunity to trade down for a team who wants to jump to #3 and take CJ. Do we give up on Thomas to trade down and get more picks? Or do we stay there at take him at 3? Or if Russell falls in our laps because the Moss trade somehow goes through, we have the same scenario... trade down or take him? The only way this blows up in our face is if this speculation about "management" is all true and we jump to #2 just to get Quinn. I cannot imagine in a million years that we would do such a thing. But apparently, everyone outside of these boards is biting on this like it's a chunk of gold. That's the only thing that scares me. Stevie Wonder could see this smokescreen. So you have to ask yourself, is it too obvious? Ugh, I need a drink!!
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The only problem I have with the theory I've advanced is ,, are the Browns really smart enough to pull that off,,, or, are the other teams dumb enough to buy into it,,,, or,, does it matter.. as long as the idea is floated, then it can take on a life of it's own and as long as it seems reasonable,, then it's possible.. teams have to take it seriously,,
Dang,,,I'm getting good at this now...LOL
You know, I was wondeing,,, do you think that one of the reasons the Browns have been MUM on Frye is so that the rumors of them wanting a QB gets some legs? Hmm,,,, you just gotta ask yourself,,,, could that be the reason...LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Come on Coach, you know better...Are you telling me that after having a kid on your team for 2YEARS that you don't know what you have in that kid??? That is horse pucky and you know it. I mean on your High School team a kid might suprise you alittle because he had a growth spurt or something...but you pretty much know what you have regardless of the players around him...
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Pit....Last year as soon as the last play had taken place they were all over Charlies jock saying that he was going to get every chance to compete for the starting spot...then once Dilfer asked to be traded and went to San Fran they went into HIGH GEAR saying the Charlie was the man...and that they had every confidence in him....of course the Dilfer trade happened right after the draft...but before the draft it was all about Charlie and his shot to start.
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As far as the story saying that Lerner is butting in....I highly doubt it....But I don't doubt for one second that the Browns are looking for a QB. If they can find one...you will see more downplaying of Charlie...If they don't then you will hear about how the Browns are behind Charlie and Derek and they will see who comes on top in training camp.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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HMMM me thinkem it's time to smoke peace pipe after working so hard at sending out smoke signals.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I know that may have been hard to write,but I think that you are seeing the very same thing that I percieve. Does it sound a little complicated? Yes Does it sound like a lot of wrangling? Yes But the entire draft,at least when having a top 5 pick is pretty much a chess game. Nothing simple about it. Positioning and manipulation is exactly what it takes to land the guy you want. Can I say for sure that you're dead on the money? Why hell no! But it is a very plausible scenario. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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OK,,, Now I'm scared for sure,, GM Says I should smoke a Piece Pipe,,, and Pit thinks I may be onto something,,,, The world is coming to an end..... And I caused it,, 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Come on Coach, you know better...Are you telling me that after having a kid on your team for 2YEARS that you don't know what you have in that kid???
when the kid shows very little (if any) improvment after having a full off season, it tends to make you wonder.
as far as the drafting the QB is a smokescreen debate, i tend to agree that ALOT of inside info is leaking, almost like it's being planted out there on purpose. this is the time of year when the staff don't even talk and leak stuff to their mothers. when lerner went to see quinn along with ope and rac, the 1st thing i thought was he's setting someone up. lerner has as much football knowledge as i do and going to see quinn in person would have absolutely no benefit to him. he would learn nothing by watching him other than the staff explaining what they were seeing. if it were to talk to him in person, he could do that when they brought quinn to cleve for a workout.
i really like toads theory on getting detroit to trade picks so JT would drop. that makes alotta sense.
tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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Is that a 666 behind your left ear 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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when the kid shows very little (if any) improvment after having a full off season, it tends to make you wonder.
it's a team sport Knox,, QB's get too much credit when things go well and too much blame when things don't go well,,
Personally, I'm convinced that Charlie needs another year for us to know for sure., I'm tired of throwaway QB's,, Just sick of it. Especially when the team has failed to fix the line...
I know they made a splash last season signing Bentley and I can't possibly blame anyone for his injury (it happens) and I do believe they did what they could to get a replacement.. (I actually like Fraley) But all of that resulted in a line that still wasn't very good at all,,
Not to mention the mess in the coaching ranks,,,
I won't, I can't judge Charlie under those circumstances,,, it's just unfair, Totally unfair,.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Pit....Last year as soon as the last play had taken place they were all over Charlies jock saying that he was going to get every chance to compete for the starting spot...then once Dilfer asked to be traded and went to San Fran they went into HIGH GEAR saying the Charlie was the man...and that they had every confidence in him....of course the Dilfer trade happened right after the draft...but before the draft it was all about Charlie and his shot to start.
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You are correct. A couple of quick questions for you. Didn't we pick at #13 last year? Were we in a position to draft in the top 5?
See,when you do pick at #3,you have to play a chess game with 29 other teams. You have to NOT tip your hand for trade down purposes and so that another team does NOT jump in front of you to get your targeted player. Let me pose a couple of scenarios for you .
Scenario 1; Let's say you are correct and we do want Russell or Quinn. IF we make it known publicly that we DON'T support Charlie (we being the FO), the other 29 teams would be pretty sure we were going to pick one of the top rated QB's. IF Oakland takes Russell or Quinn,IF ANY of the other 29 teams wants that remaining QB,they deal with the Lions and nab our guy RIGHT IN FRONT OF US!!! Bad strategy on the part of our FO huh?
Scenario 2 ; We fully endorse Charlie as "the man"! We just told the other 29 teams we WON'T go QB! So if Russell or Quinn are still there at #3,why in the hell would any team wanting the remaining QB want to call us for a trade offer? They know we're not going QB. They know Tampa Bay has both Simms and Garcia just signed also with Tamps Bay. So they call the team picking #5 and we're out of the mix. Not very good draft strategy huh?
So can I assure you they're NOT going QB? Most certainly not. However,by fully endorsing Charlie as "the man" or saying he is surely "NOT the man",we're giving up our ace in the hole.So when there's two highy taughted QB's in a draft and you pick third or fourth? Only sheer stupidity would cause a team to tip their hand on who they're picking and what their strategy might be as to what position they're targeting. So what stand would our FO take about Charlie in this case? No stand at all. That would be the "smart thing" to do.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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OK,,, Now I'm scared for sure,, GM Says I should smoke a Piece Pipe,,, and Pit thinks I may be onto something,,,,
The world is coming to an end..... And I caused it,,
Yet another sign of the Apocolypse!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I'm glad you're clearing things up for us KNOX. So it wasn't a problem on the part of the coaching staff at all. So all those firings were the wrong thing to do. It was actually Charlie's fault all along? I'll pass that along to Phil for you...................
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I know,,, scary isn't it
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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nobody said everything was CF's fault. does a QB have to have an all pro squad around him to prove if he has IT? after starting for almost 1/3 of a season and having an entire off season to improve, shouldn't a QB show at least some improvement the following year? you don't need to be on a good team to show if you have what it takes. every year a few FA's from sucky teams make a fortune because they proved they have what it takes. all i'm saying is CF has shown me absolutely nothing to gamble my future on. and no need to tell opie... rac has prolly beat me to it. 
tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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nobody said everything was CF's fault. does a QB have to have an all pro squad around him to prove if he has IT?
No,but at least an "average team" around them helps.
At least an "average OL" helps.
And actually being able to "run the ball somewhat" helps.
A carpenter can't build a house without some tools.
And RAC doesn't make the draft picks,Phil does. Just an FYI
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Charlie is at or near his peak.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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One other point to consider in all of this....pushing for a qb doesn't have to mean trading up.
We could trade down and bring in Carr or Schaub. I am not saying that would be my ideal, but moving up isn't the only way to improve at qb.
I really doubt we move up unless we can give the Lions a player to swap picks. And if we did....5th rounder would be the tops.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Putting an actual team AROUND your current QB might help too. Being able to actually run the ball may help too. Actually giving your current QB a fairly consistant "pocket" to produce in may be of some value as well. But let's not permit that to get in the way of things.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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This so called Trade Up with Detroit from Pencil Neck involves our 2nd rounder...
NO WAY WILL SAVAGE DO THAT...
Not for Quinn OR Russell...
Go Browns!!!
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Putting an actual team AROUND your current QB might help too. Being able to actually run the ball may help too. Actually giving your current QB a fairly consistant "pocket" to produce in may be of some value as well. But let's not permit that to get in the way of things.
I agree.. Peterson is a definite HELPER!! you will see how he helps with stats...
Joe Thomas is an LT, and you may not see how helpful he will be on the game stats.. but you will see it in the amount of sacks Frye takes next year...
Me personally.. I want Peterson.. I want the Browns to run, run, and RUN!!!! Everyone wants smashmouth football.. now here is the opportunity..
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No,but
that's all you had to say. i rest my case.
we will find out this off season which one of us the FO agrees with. if either draft or trade/FA QB comes in here, charlie is finished as a starter. if not they are willing to do how yo see it.
tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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Lerner has now decided to go from an owner with no apparent leadership skills to an owner who will tie the hands of general manager Phil Savage by making this kind of command decision.
aside from the stupidity of buying rumors at face value, this shows the guy's bias shining right through...
not collaborating with the GM means Randy has no leadership skills...collaborating with him means he's tieing Phil's hands...  i mean, i agree with the 2nd part, mostly, but you can't argue BOTH!...forgive me for not buying a subscription to the Mansfield News Journal anytime soon...
Browns fans are born with it...
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we will find out this off season which one of us the FO agrees with. if either draft or trade/FA QB comes in here, charlie is finished as a starter. if not they are willing to do how yo see it.
As plain and beautifully truthful as a David Gilmour guitar solo, knox.
We will see.
My own thoughts are that while CF deserves to have a decent supporting cast, I think the odds of him being a good NFL quarterback aren't good. Not enough arm, IMO.
But we don't know for sure (YET), and we don't know (YET) what Savage/Crennel think.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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tradition can only carry you so far, then you have to start winning again.
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Just Clicking
What this comes down to again is what BC brought up yesterday in another thread,,
Judging a players ability vs his production..
Ability,,, they either have it or they don't,,
Production,,, takes a team to accomplish....
I honestly think it's fair to judge Charlie on his ability,, or lack there of.. depending on how you view things..
It is completely unfair to judge his productivity given the unsettled nature of the line, the inconsistent playcalling and inept receiving (all the drops and muffs)
I'm not gonna blame Charlie for ALL of the INT's last season,, can't do it. simply because there were too many (I believe 6 or 7) that hit receivers on the hands and bounced off into the hands of defenders... I will not blame Charlie for those...
I don't think it's fair to blame him for the inept TEAM performance in the Red Zone.. He shares in the blame, but it doesn't and can't fall completly on his shoulders,,,
I do think it's fair to question his arm strength, decision making and ability to read defenses.. but on the last two, I feel there is some reason to think that others on the team should be questioned for thier part in allowing defenses to play on our side of the ball far to often..
In a few weeks, if Savage doesn't make a major adjustment at the QB spot, then I think it's safe to say, he's our guy for at least another year..
I also think if that happens, it sends a clear message that dispite what any of us think, Charlie is well thought of in the ABILITY area..
Right or wrong, the proof will come soon enough!
don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting real excited...LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I agree.. Peterson is a definite HELPER!! you will see how he helps with stats...
No holes makes AP a dull boy. His stats where? What team are you refering to?
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Me personally.. I want Peterson.. I want the Browns to run, run, and RUN!!!! Everyone wants smashmouth football.. now here is the opportunity..
You need an OL to give RB's a place to run TO before anybody is going to run anywhere. Next years draft class is very deep at RB. No reason to spend a #3 this year,on similar talent we can get in the teens next year. Just not smart at all IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Putting an actual team AROUND your current QB might help too. Being able to actually run the ball may help too. Actually giving your current QB a fairly consistant "pocket" to produce in may be of some value as well. But let's not permit that to get in the way of things.
See......I knew we would agree about something .........we just disagree on how to do it
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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NC,, it's a funny thing, but darn near everyone of us feels the needs are exactly the same.,. Oline, Dline, QB, RB, CB, LB.. About the only thing most feel we shouldn't worry about this year is Safety LOL. The thing we don't agree on is when, how and with which players to accomplish this transition into a feared team... Underneth it all, we are Browns fans..... and god do we love to debate,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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ya, daman, your right, and I always knew that.......I just got a little defensive there for awhile and when I get defensive, I get kinda stupid  I know we all want the same thing...At that's for the Browns to win the Superbowl (I actually put $10.00 on the Browns to make the SB THIS year at 70 to 1 odds , why not!). I along with all of you guys, will root my heart out for whomever the Browns pick this year, all the way down to our 7th rounder.
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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I know,,, scary isn't it
No, what's starting to really freak me out is your abundant use of the comma, Daman. Let the poor little guy go.
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No,,, I like the little guy,,, The comma is my friend! It allows me to pause a thought then continue it....... And the period is also my friend. will you be my friend,, welcome to my neighborhood!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No thanks, I've been to Aurora. Too many child molesters wearing cardigan sweaters.
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Pardon me?  what the heck are you talking about? Like every town in America, we have a few registered sex offenders, but I highly doubt it's a significant number compared to other small rural towns.. so what are you talking about exactly! Or was that a feeble attempt at humor?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I was just going along with your Mr. Rogers thing. Nevermind. 
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OH,,, OKAY! Sorry I blew my top, but one of my pet peeves is Child Molesters,preditors, Child pornographers whatever you want to call these creeps..
I'd very much like to take them all around back and beat them to within and inch of thier lives..
then take the lawyers that defend them and do the same thing..
Then take any judge that let's them off and do the same thing
and let's not forget the shrinks that think they can be changed... Take them around back also....
I know I'm extreme on this subject, but frankly, I don't give a damn,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It's cool. Anyway, I just saw this and thought it was somewhat interesting....
Broncos | Team reportedly tried to acquire No. 2 pick in draft Sat, 17 Mar 2007 07:08:21 -0700 Mike Klis, of the Denver Post, reports the Detroit Lions have held preliminary discussions with the Denver Broncos regarding the No. 2 overall pick in the NFL Draft in the last month, league sources have confirmed. According to sources, the Lions asked for multiple draft picks that included the Broncos' No. 21 selection. The Broncos considered the asking price too high and trade discussions have stopped. The team, however, has been trying to deal their No. 21 overall pick. link You know the Donks aren't thinking QB with Cutler there, so who then?
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Maybe Johnson or Peterson....Hmmm,,, they could use either of those two guys.. I'm not thinking Thomas here,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And the period is also my friend.
Congrats Daman, I think your the first man that ever said that
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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You are a very very strange little man GM,,, Very strange indeed
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Management pushing for QB pick???
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